Ben vs. Tom vs. Manning (1 Viewer)

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I'm catching all kinds of flak when I make the claim for Ben being an Elite QB in the league based on his performance late in games and particularly in the playoffs. I'm told he won in those Superbowl runs because of his Defense and running game where Tom and Peyton didn't have good defenses.

I call Bull....

Who had the better defense when they won their first Superbowl?

Team A Defense in the Playoffs (superbowl winner)

126 yds & 3 Turnovers

244 yds & 4 Turnovers

319 yds & 1 Turnovers

265 yds & 5 Turnovers (1 int TD)

Team B Defense in the Playoffs (superbowl winner)

327 yds & 2 Turnovers

305 yds & 0 Turnovers

308 yds & 4 Turnovers

396 yds & 1 Turnovers

Team C Defense in the Playoffs (superbowl winner)

230 yds & 0 Turnovers

306 yds & 4 Turnovers (2 TDs... 1 int & 1 punt return)

427 yds & 3 Turnovers (1 int TD)

hmmmm.....

Team A is the Colts when Peyton won his first Superbowl

Team B is the Steelers when Ben won his first Superbowl

Team C is the Patriots when Tom won his first Superbowl

Tom's other 2 rings....

284 & 1 276 & 3

306 & 5 (colts) 388 & 4 (1 int TD)(colts)

387 & 1 369 & 4

Ben's other ring....

290 & 2 (1 punt return TD)

198 & 4 (1 int TD)

407 & 2 (1 int TD)

these numbers surprised me as I didn't realize the Steeler's D & Special Teams had done that well in the playoffs last year as far as big plays. I guess I forgot!!

The first game was the San Diego game where they ran like 20 more plays than the Chargers but the Chargers offense looked explosive. The second was the Flacco game where Sweed dropped a TD and Polamalu picked off Joe in the final minutes. The third game was the Harrison 100 and Woodley's forced fumble at the end.

Maybe a comparison of the QB's playoff numbers would be a better comparison.

(minimum 10 games)...

Numbers are as follows... I chose these because they seem to be the fairest numbers for all performers and it spans all eras

(Comp. %, QB Rating, Yards per Attempt)

A.) 62.5%, 88.0, 6.65

B.) 61.7%, 85.0, 7.46

C.) 61.9%, 87.2, 8.05

D.) 64.8%, 98.9, 8.36

E.) 60.7%, 85.2, 7.37

F.) 62.7%, 95.6, 7.86

G.) 57.2%, 83.0, 8.41

H.) 56.0%, 77.1, 6.56

A.) Tom Brady

B.) Peyton Manning

C.) Ben Roethlisberger

D.) Kurt Warner (wow)

E.) Brett Favre

F.) Joe Montana (wow)

G.) Terry Bradshaw

H.) Dan Marino (not so dandy Dan)

Interested in your thoughts!!

 

[Sea Bass]

Nice research, but this isn't going to end well.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Nice research, but this isn't going to end well.

Yeah I know! hahajust seeing if this button still works!

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

He is just as adapt at winning games as anyone, ever.But he has to stop getting his melon knocked around. Everytime he does it, it takes an extended period for him to overcome and yet he usually keeps trying to play.Having a good supporting cast and good coaching is part of winning... for every quarterback. Its not a knock against them in any fashion.

True.... but I also don't like hearing reports every once in a while about him being lazy as far as film study and not being liked by a lot of his team mates. Being liked may not be that important but it could turn into people not putting it all out on the line for a diva QB.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

This is Big Ben's first year without a top 5 defense.

How's that going for him?

Peyton and Brady have never lost 7 games in a season, and they've played with much worse defenses than what Pitt is rolling out there this year.

 

[Dought Man]

I think many now see that Troy is the MVP of the Steelers past 5 years... not Large Benjamin.

Ben = very good, tough QB who excels in late game situations. Has always been helped out by a consistently good/great defense (save this season).

Peyton/Brady = QB's who will be remembered as "legends of the game" and didnt exactly play with stellar defenses most seasons.

There is no comparison here. No one in their right mind would take Ben in his prime over the other two in their prime in any situation.

 

[craxie]

Peyton and Brady have never lost 7 games in a season

sure about that?didn't mean to interrupt, carry on

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Peyton and Brady have never lost 7 games in a season

sure about that?didn't mean to interrupt, carry on

Haha, as I was typing that I was thinking "maybe I should double check this", but I'm too lazy.

 

[kaa]

You aren't going to convince anyone if you are talking about Ben in Super Bowl XL vs the Seahawks. He went 9/21 for 123 yards, 0 passing TDs, 2 INTs, and a QB rating of 22.6. It was the worst performance of a Super Bowl "winner" we've ever seen. If there is a case where a team won the Super Bowl in spite of their QB, it was that one.

 

[Dought Man]

No one in their right mind would take Ben in his prime over the other two in their prime in any situation.

If you had a pisspoor offensive line that couldnt block a lick... you would probably want Ben.

Fair point! The man is durable and has proven he can take a lick! You can make a case that Peyton and Tom have played 90% of their career in a tuxedo back there.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

This is Big Ben's first year without a top 5 defense.How's that going for him?Peyton and Brady have never lost 7 games in a season, and they've played with much worse defenses than what Pitt is rolling out there this year.

wrong... Brady went 9-7 in 2002.Ben's only 7 loss season was following a bad decision to head butt a moving car... I don't recommend this!yeah yeah yeah but Brady had 'EXTRA' help and is in a better system (see Matt sandCassel) and Peyton is maybe the most accurate passer ever as far as pinpointing where he wants to throw the ball and his weapons are/were superior. Peyton's just flat out better! Maybe Tom is too... but Ben's close to both of them despite being a fat lazy diva.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Ben's only 7 loss season was following a bad decision to head butt a moving car... I don't recommend this!

Pitt has 7 losses this season.

 

[todisco1]

I don't think Ben is as good as Brady and Manning, but he's right below them IMO. Guy is elite, there's no doubt in my mind.

 

[ClownDogs]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.

Not in any way saying Ben is in the same tier as Peyton/Brady, just if everyone is gonna talk about how the Steelers Def is why ben is soooooo good, don't forget how bad his line is compared to the other two, that's all.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

You aren't going to convince anyone if you are talking about Ben in Super Bowl XL vs the Seahawks. He went 9/21 for 123 yards, 0 passing TDs, 2 INTs, and a QB rating of 22.6. It was the worst performance of a Super Bowl "winner" we've ever seen. If there is a case where a team won the Super Bowl in spite of their QB, it was that one.

true... Ben didn't do much to help them win that game but he played a MAJOR part in getting them there in the playoffs. Look clearly from just the way they command the field and the way they play (their styles) nobody is saying Ben is a better passer... I'm just saying that passin' in a clean pocket all the time ain't reality and in reality I think a lot of people would at least consider taking Ben over either one of Tom or Peyton because what you gain with Ben over them after the protection breaks down most likely makes up for what they have over him when the pocket is clean.sorry rearnaked... what I meant was I like Ben as a player and I'm not saying I believe all that I hear about him outside of the game or even in his perceived lack of preparation but I'm sure all the smoke taints my opinion of him. I don't hear the same kind of negative crap about Peyton or Tom or any of the other elites so it just makes me a little annoyed I guess.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Ben's only 7 loss season was following a bad decision to head butt a moving car... I don't recommend this!

Pitt has 7 losses this season.

Yup... and Ben has 6.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.

That's so bogus. Peyton has played with lines as bad or worse than Big Ben's.Big Ben's line is bad, but their ineptitude is greatly exaggerated by Big Ben's propensity to hold onto the ball way too long, and by his stubborness in trying to break tackles rather than getting rid of it. I always laugh when a team sends a 7 man blitz against Big Ben and he tries to break some tackles, and then all the Steelers fans on this board fill the game thread with "see how bad that line is that guy was unblocked!".Of course he was unblocked, they rushed 6 or 7 guys. That means that at worst, everyone was in single coverage. How you can fail to get the ball out against that is beyond me. How often do you see teams send 7 guys at Brady/Peyton? Almost never, because when they do, they get torched not by them breaking 5 tackles, but by them getting the ball out quickly.Earlier this season Big Ben was sacked 4+ times in a game and everyone was complaining about the line. But on EVERY single one of those plays he held the ball for longer than 3 seconds. You can't hold the ball that long and then blame it on the line because you thought you could shake off a 300lb lineman instead of getting rid of the ball.Peyton and Brady aren't going to run around back there breaking tackles, but that doesn't mean they can't handle a pass rush or bad line, they just do it in a different way. And that way doesn't lead to those drive killing 12 yard sacks either, which everyone kindly forgets since it didn't happen in last year's super bowl.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.Not in any way saying Ben is in the same tier as Peyton/Brady, just if everyone is gonna talk about how the Steelers Def is why ben is soooooo good, don't forget how bad his line is compared to the other two, that's all.

love this point. I think winning the superbowl might have been a curse in disguise because they decided not to seriously address the O-Line issues they had. If you wanna be a passing team than draft or acquire quicker more agile O-Line so you can finesse your way down the field. Don't make the big uglies like Kemo and Max Starks try to play finesse as they are just too big (that being said... Juicy can pull pretty dang well at times in the run game)

 

[Dought Man]

You aren't going to convince anyone if you are talking about Ben in Super Bowl XL vs the Seahawks. He went 9/21 for 123 yards, 0 passing TDs, 2 INTs, and a QB rating of 22.6. It was the worst performance of a Super Bowl "winner" we've ever seen. If there is a case where a team won the Super Bowl in spite of their QB, it was that one.

true... Ben didn't do much to help them win that game but he played a MAJOR part in getting them there in the playoffs. Look clearly from just the way they command the field and the way they play (their styles) nobody is saying Ben is a better passer... I'm just saying that passin' in a clean pocket all the time ain't reality and in reality I think a lot of people would at least consider taking Ben over either one of Tom or Peyton because what you gain with Ben over them after the protection breaks down most likely makes up for what they have over him when the pocket is clean.sorry rearnaked... what I meant was I like Ben as a player and I'm not saying I believe all that I hear about him outside of the game or even in his perceived lack of preparation but I'm sure all the smoke taints my opinion of him. I don't hear the same kind of negative crap about Peyton or Tom or any of the other elites so it just makes me a little annoyed I guess.

One might also argue that teams are scared to blitz Brady and Manning because they have essentially picked teams apart at the seams when this occurs, even when they get hit at the end of the plays.Ben is built to take hits, thats for sure. It's not enough of a reason to ever put him in the same breath as Manning/Brady though.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.

That's so bogus. Peyton has played with lines as bad or worse than Big Ben's.Big Ben's line is bad, but their ineptitude is greatly exaggerated by Big Ben's propensity to hold onto the ball way too long, and by his stubborness in trying to break tackles rather than getting rid of it. I always laugh when a team sends a 7 man blitz against Big Ben and he tries to break some tackles, and then all the Steelers fans on this board fill the game thread with "see how bad that line is that guy was unblocked!".Of course he was unblocked, they rushed 6 or 7 guys. That means that at worst, everyone was in single coverage. How you can fail to get the ball out against that is beyond me. How often do you see teams send 7 guys at Brady/Peyton? Almost never, because when they do, they get torched not by them breaking 5 tackles, but by them getting the ball out quickly.Earlier this season Big Ben was sacked 4+ times in a game and everyone was complaining about the line. But on EVERY single one of those plays he held the ball for longer than 3 seconds. You can't hold the ball that long and then blame it on the line because you thought you could shake off a 300lb lineman instead of getting rid of the ball.Peyton and Brady aren't going to run around back there breaking tackles, but that doesn't mean they can't handle a pass rush or bad line, they just do it in a different way. And that way doesn't lead to those drive killing 12 yard sacks either, which everyone kindly forgets since it didn't happen in last year's super bowl.

How's that worked out for Peyton in the playoffs? Move him off of his spot and he's done! That's the book on him. Same with Brady... pressure him up the gut and get him outside of the pocket! Yes Ben holds the ball too long at times and yes sometimes you want to tear your hair out because he takes mind numbing sacks. But he also makes plays when the line fails. Its one of his greatest weaknesses and one of his greatest strengths.... and in the playoffs it has been a strength where Peyton's failures in the playoffs can be linked to his inability to create when things go wrong.

 

[Steelers4Life]

There is no comparison here. No one in their right mind would take Ben in his prime over the other two in their prime in any situation.

I just take exception to the part I quoted above. Ben has 2 Super Bowl victories, but he very well may not have even REACHED his prime yet, so we don't know how good he WILL be when he gets there. Maybe he's peaked already, but if he hasn't, it'll be fun when he does.Ben will turn 28 in March. Brady turned 32 a few months ago and Manning will be 34 soon. Hell, Brady wasn't BRADY until he was 30 and united with Randy Moss... before that, he was a good QB with a very good team around him who didn't make mistakes and was a lock for 25-28 TDs per year with a few hundred passing yards short of 4,000. People have their opinions of Big Ben. He's been fantastic for a while now. He didn't get enough credit early in his career for the plays he made, and he doesn't really get enough credit for performing pretty well behind the worst Steelers offensive line I can remember in my lifetime. He holds the ball too long and takes too many hits, but that's also how he extends drives and makes plays that few other QBs in the NFL can make. And he does it consistently. He's not the issue with the Steelers this year, but that's for a different thread at another time. On a team with a poor offensive line, I'd take Ben on my team 10 times out of 10 over Brady or Manning. In most cases, I wouldn't.

 

[menobrown]

There is no comparison here. No one in their right mind would take Ben in his prime over the other two in their prime in any situation.

I just take exception to the part I quoted above. Ben has 2 Super Bowl victories, but he very well may not have even REACHED his prime yet, so we don't know how good he WILL be when he gets there. Maybe he's peaked already, but if he hasn't, it'll be fun when he does.Ben will turn 28 in March. Brady turned 32 a few months ago and Manning will be 34 soon. Hell, Brady wasn't BRADY until he was 30 and united with Randy Moss... before that, he was a good QB with a very good team around him who didn't make mistakes and was a lock for 25-28 TDs per year with a few hundred passing yards short of 4,000. People have their opinions of Big Ben. He's been fantastic for a while now. He didn't get enough credit early in his career for the plays he made, and he doesn't really get enough credit for performing pretty well behind the worst Steelers offensive line I can remember in my lifetime. He holds the ball too long and takes too many hits, but that's also how he extends drives and makes plays that few other QBs in the NFL can make. And he does it consistently. He's not the issue with the Steelers this year, but that's for a different thread at another time. On a team with a poor offensive line, I'd take Ben on my team 10 times out of 10 over Brady or Manning. In most cases, I wouldn't.

I don't have much to add to this except to say the Steelers won the SB last year with the worst offensive line ever for a SB champ. I'd also look at how long it took Cowher to win a SB until Ben arrived. In fact how many QB's have won a SB with different HC's? All I can think of is Ben and Aikman. Brady and Peyton are both HOF QB's and I'm not trying to knock them but they are not perfect. The Colts got ousted early and often from the playoffs a large part of Peytons career. In a lot of those elimination games Peyton played one of if not his worst game of the year and in a lot of those losses the Colts D actually stepped up and played well but Peyton's poor play was large reason they were defeated. As you mentioned Brady was statistically average until Moss arrived and Moss has made every QB he had played with outside of Oakland look better than they are.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.

Peyton has played with lines as bad or worse than Big Ben's.

No way in hell.

Gotta say to this one.The O-line for the Stillers has been horrible. How they won it all last year is beyond amazing to me. I mean, who wins the SB without being able to run the ball?

All that said...

Brady and Manning are on another level than everyone else. No question in my mind.

After those two, I think Ben is at least slightly ahead of the rest of the pack (Rivers, E Manning, Brees, McNubb, et al.)

But that's just me....the haters will hate.

 

[kaa]

The O-line for the Stillers has been horrible. How they won it all last year is beyond amazing to me. I mean, who wins the SB without being able to run the ball?

If the Steelers had to face an 8-8 Chargers team, a Ravens team with a rookie QB, and a 9-7 Cardinals team every year to win the Lombardi, they'd probably have 6-7 titles this decade. Just sayin'.

 

[sgtrobo]

much silliness abounds herein

1) Ben's OL is horrible. For the last 2 years, he has played behind a line comprised of 3rd, 4th, 6th rounds and UDFA.

2) Ben's aversion to hitting a checkdown exacerbates this problem. As much as his tendency to hold the ball is necessary (in order to make plays), his tendency is frequently his undoing.

3) Ben has intangibles that Peyton and Brady don't have. His ability to extend plays and his fearlessness is something that would allow him to function behind any line

4) Peyton's ability to see the defense and be a "field general" far exceeds anything Peyton or Ben can do, but he is borderline useless once the pocket breaks even a little

5) Brady combines most of the best of both of Peyton and Ben, in that he is a field general who can extend plays, but he is, in no way, shape or form, as good at Peyton or Ben in either.

Ultimately, Peyton SHOULD be head and shoulders above everybody, but his propensity to choke in the playoffs leaves him lacking. Don't bother with the BS about 'his running game/defense always sucked'. It was the exact same running game and defense that carried them to more victories in a decade than any other team in NFL history. Manning's passer rating drops by almost 12 points, his completion percentage drops by 2 or 3 points, and his TD/INT ratio is 2x as bad in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Those are facts.

we also saw what happened in SB42 when NYG was in Brady's face all game. The most productive offense in NFL history fell by the wayside and Brady's play was greatly diminished. Welcome to the world of Ben Roethlisberger.

At the beginning of 2008 when Peyton had a bunch of injuries along his offensive line, he looked like garbage. He had people in his face all game long for the first few weeks, and he doesn't deal with that kind of pressure well at all.

All of them have warts. Brady's game has regressed substantially because Moss and Welker have made him lazy. Welker is always open, and Moss, when his effort level is high, is basically always open (just throw it up to him). Matt Cassel stepping in and putting up an 11-5 season + a boatload of passing stats is testament to how well that offense, by itself, functions.

Peyton's warts are that, if something 'new' is thrown at him that he is not prepared for, he chokes. That is why in the playoffs he always faces a defensive gameplan that is different than what he's seen. As a result, he doesn't adapt quickly enough. He's also borderline immobile, a la Dan Marino.

Ben's warts are stubbornness and his refusal to take what a defense gives him. He also has a wart by the name of Bruce Arians.

If Peyton can put it together in the post season, there really will be no doubt who is the best QB. However, if he chokes again, he will truly reinforce his status as a playoff choke artist.

Brady hasn't won anything of substance since 2004. Perhaps his time and his peak have long passed.

Ben has upside, but he has a ####ty OL, a ####ty OC, and the wrong attitude with his team in that he continuously tries to extend plays and puts his team in bad positions because of the sacks he takes.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

It's true that Peyton laid up some stinkers in the playoffs early on in his career, but to say the playoff losses the last handful of years are on him is ridiculous. His QB rating in Indy's playoff LOSSES in that timespan is higher than Big Ben's QB rating in Pitt's playoff WINS during his tenure. One thing that you won't see out of Peyton though is him put up 13 net offensive points for the first 57 minutes of a game against a Cardinals team with a vaunted offense and still have a chance to win it at the end thanks to his defense.

The funny thing about this is that when someone starts up a thread about the 10 best QBs in the NFL (such that it doesn't have anything Steeler related in the title), Big Ben typically falls into the QB7-QB10 range. When a thread is specifically talking about Big Ben, and hence full of Steeler homers, half the posters talk about it as if Big Ben is QB3 at worst.

Also, sgtrobo, you must have named the wrong year because Peyton was phenomenal for the first 5 games of 2007. Even if you were talking about 2006 it's still a poor example because he really only had one bad game in that stretch, and had numbers that prorate out to 4200/26 over the course of a season, which is something Big Ben has never touched even in his best year.

 

[encaitar]

I think this thread is stupid, but I'll post anyway. The lines don't matter to me in which QB I would rather have. Behind a great oline I want Peyton first, Brady second and probably 10 other current QBs before Ben. Behind a poor offensive line I want Peyton first, Brady second, but Ben would probably be third at that point.

Both Brady and Peyton have played behind terrible olines in their career and a case could be made that Peyton's line is worse THIS YEAR than Ben's is. The way that each of them go about handling poor offensive line play is very different. Peyton helps his line by calling out perfect blocking assignments for every defense because he's so good at reading it. Brady also helps out(although not as proficient as Manning), but also makes small quick movements inside the pocket very well. Both of them get through their reads super quickly and the ball is out fast. Ben might be able to throw a 300 lb defensive tackle to the ground and extend the play, but I'd rather have someone more capable of getting rid of the ball quickly.

Not to say he's a terrible QB. I would put him at 5 right now in the league.(Behind these two and Rivers and Brees) He just isn't even in the conversation in my mind when it is a comparison with these two.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Peyton is so far and away the best QB we've ever seen or will see, its almost beyond debate.

Put Manning Foxboro and Brady in Indy for the last decade and tell me Manning doesn't pile up at least as many championships.

Brady, with that supporting cast, wouldn't have won a single one.

And Big Ben, peace out.

Manning is in the Johnny U/Montana debate right now and pretty soon it won't even be one.

I will give them props for pioneering though. But if you lined them all up side by side, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on Manning's level.

And I don't particularly like the guy(don't hate him either) but watching him carve teams up is something else.

This is a three win team without him at QB, and has not been better than a .500 one without him since Edge blew out his knee. Maybe Brady, Edge and Harrison win a bowl, but given Brady's youth at that point, I don't think so.

 

[hoopvillian]

Peyton is so far and away the best QB we've ever seen or will see, its almost beyond debate.

Put Manning Foxboro and Brady in Indy for the last decade and tell me Manning doesn't pile up at least as many championships.

Brady, with that supporting cast, wouldn't have won a single one.

And Big Ben, peace out.

Manning is in the Johnny U/Montana debate right now and pretty soon it won't even be one.

I will give them props for pioneering though. But if you lined them all up side by side, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on Manning's level.

And I don't particularly like the guy(don't hate him either) but watching him carve teams up is something else.

This is a three win team without him at QB, and has not been better than a .500 one without him since Edge blew out his knee. Maybe Brady, Edge and Harrison win a bowl, but given Brady's youth at that point, I don't think so.

I don't even like Manning much and I totally agree with the bolded. No one has ever managed an offense so well.

 

[sgtrobo]

It's true that Peyton laid up some stinkers in the playoffs early on in his career, but to say the playoff losses the last handful of years are on him is ridiculous. His QB rating in Indy's playoff LOSSES in that timespan is higher than Big Ben's QB rating in Pitt's playoff WINS during his tenure. One thing that you won't see out of Peyton though is him put up 13 net offensive points for the first 57 minutes of a game against a Cardinals team with a vaunted offense and still have a chance to win it at the end thanks to his defense.

not to be contrarian, but, in fact, yes you will, and you already have. The season they won the Super Bowl, he was responsible for 3 TDs passing, 1 rushing, and threw 7 picks. The defense kept them in each of those games. C'mon man, be serious. In the Super Bowl vs. the Bears the offense produced 2 TDs, the defense produced 1 TD and 5 turnovers. Against Baltimore, he threw 2 picks, completed 50% of his passes and won in a battle of field goals. Against Kansas City, he threw 3 interceptions, but the defense held Larry Johnson to 32 yards rushing, held Trent Green to 107 yards passing, and gave up 1 TD. New England wouldn't have even been in the game if Asante Samuel hadn't returned a pick6.I'm not hating on Manning. He is EASILY the best regular season QB ever. Before he can be mentioned in the same breath as Joe Montana, he has to become better in the postseason.That's just my opinion.and no, I don't think Ben is a top 3 QB. I think it's obvious that Brees, Brady, Manning, and Warner are better. I think Ben might get up there, but he has to dedicate himself and focus.

Also, sgtrobo, you must have named the wrong year because Peyton was phenomenal for the first 5 games of 2007.

mah bad. meant 2008. NO clue where that brain cramp came from, going to go change it now.

 

[sgtrobo]

His QB rating in Indy's playoff LOSSES in that timespan is higher than Big Ben's QB rating in Pitt's playoff WINS during his tenure.

uh, this is laughably incorrect.Peyton Manning's postseason career passer rating is 85.0Ben Roethlisberger's postseason career QB rating is 87.2In losses, Manning's postseason rating is 70.6In losses, Ben's postseason passer rtg is 74.2in victories, Manning's postseason rating is 104.2In victories, Big Ben's postseason rating is 91.2So, your statement is so laughable, it's almost funny. More humor 1) Ben has 5 postseason games with multiple TD passes. Manning has 42) Manning has thrown for 0 or 1 TD in 11 postseason games (out of 15). Ben has thrown 0 or 1 TD in 5 (of 10)3) Both have 4 postseason games with multiple picks.4) Ben has passed for a TD in all but 1 postseason game. Manning has been held without a TD in 4.5) Ben has a passer rating > 90 in 5 of his 10 postseason games. Manning has a PR > 90 in 6 of his 15 games6) Ben has a PR < 50 in one game in the postseason. Manning has been under 50 @ 3 times7) Ben has a PR < 70 in 2 games in the postseason. Manning has been under 70 @ 5 times.In Manning's entire body of postseason work, he has thrown 22 TD passes. 9 of them came in 2 games, leaving him with 13 TDs in the other 13 games. Yes yes, cherry picking stats, just showing as an example. It seems you suffer from the same selective memory as many others with regards to Ben's postseason play. You remember his horrible SB in 2005 and forget that he had a cumulative passer rating of 106 that postseason, INCLUDING the Super Bowl.He was damn good the other games. 7 TDs, 1 pick, just under 700 yards.

Even if you were talking about 2006 it's still a poor example because he really only had one bad game in that stretch, and had numbers that prorate out to 4200/26 over the course of a season, which is something Big Ben has never touched even in his best year.

well, he had 32 TDs in 2007, and he'll hit both 4200/26 this season (or at least get close), so this isn't entirely true. Again, no hate on Manning. I like him. I think he'll produce in the postseason eventually, he just hasn't done it yet.and for the record, I love his commercials.

 

[Steelfan7]

The O-line for the Stillers has been horrible. How they won it all last year is beyond amazing to me. I mean, who wins the SB without being able to run the ball?

If the Steelers had to face an 8-8 Chargers team, a Ravens team with a rookie QB, and a 9-7 Cardinals team every year to win the Lombardi, they'd probably have 6-7 titles this decade. Just sayin'.

Why didn't the Steelers have to face Peyton or Brady last year on their route to the playoffs?

 

[kaa]

The O-line for the Stillers has been horrible. How they won it all last year is beyond amazing to me. I mean, who wins the SB without being able to run the ball?

If the Steelers had to face an 8-8 Chargers team, a Ravens team with a rookie QB, and a 9-7 Cardinals team every year to win the Lombardi, they'd probably have 6-7 titles this decade. Just sayin'.

Why didn't the Steelers have to face Peyton or Brady last year on their route to the playoffs?

They didn't face Brady because he blew out his ACL. Steelers beat the Patriots 33-10 in week 13. The Steelers actually did play Peyton that year and got beat at home 24-20. Peyton threw 3 TDs and 0 INTs.

 

[Insomniac]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.Not in any way saying Ben is in the same tier as Peyton/Brady, just if everyone is gonna talk about how the Steelers Def is why ben is soooooo good, don't forget how bad his line is compared to the other two, that's all.

The number of sacks isn't completely dependent on the line. The QB makes a big difference. For example the Patriots OL has the same starters for the last 3 years except for injuries. In 2007 Brady had 578 passing attempts and was sacked 21 times. (3.5%) This year he has 490 attempts and 15 sacks. (just under 3%) Last year Cassel playing behind the same line had 516 attempts and was sacked 47 times. (8.35%) This year playing in KC he has 392 attempts and 40 sacks. (9.26%) Perhaps the difference between Brady and Cassel's sack rates behind the same line can be explained by something other than how quickly they get rid of the ball but that seems the most likely explanation.

 

[Adebisi]

This thread again?

 

[FreeBaGeL]

sgtrobo, you're missing words in the sentences you're quoting that are the entire basis of the sentence, and the numbers you're bring up have nothing to do with them.

"It's true that Peyton laid up some stinkers in the playoffs early on in his career, but to say the playoff losses the last handful of years are on him is ridiculous. His QB rating in Indy's playoff LOSSES in that timespan are higher than Big Ben's QB rating in Pitt's playoff WINS during his tenure."

The underline/bold is what you were missing in your response. Like I said, he sucked in the playoffs early in his career, but the last 5 years or so he's been good in the playoffs, yet the record still hasn't been nearly as good as Roethlisberger's. Why? Because he's not playing with a top 3 defense every year.

"One thing that you won't see out of Peyton though is him put up 13 net offensive points for the first 57 minutes of a game against a Cardinals team with a vaunted offense and still have a chance to win it at the end thanks to his defense."

Comparing defensive performances between a Cardinals team with a top offense and a Ravens team with a bad one isn't exactly on par. The Cardinals were a top 5 total offense, the Ravens barely a top 20. When Indy has played against good offenses in the playoffs, they've bled like a sieve defensively.But this is all just playoffs, which I won't deny over the last 5 years Roethlisberger has been at least on par with Manning. But that leaves out, you know, the entire rest of equation which as we've seen, without a top defense Roethlisberger can't even seem to GET to those playoffs. I mean, does anyone really believe that Pitt would have even MADE the playoffs in the 2005 super bowl year without that defense? What about last year? Yeah they were 12-4, but an 11-5 team missed the playoffs. They won games 10-6, 11-10, and 13-9 last year. Without that defense they lose all those games and don't even make the playoffs. Those Super Bowl teams aren't even in the PLAYOFFS without a top 3 defense those two years.

One thing that I find really interesting about this is some of the Stiller fans calling Brady's production "just average" before Moss/Welker arrived, even though that production far exceeds what Roethlisberger typically achieves. Then further, they've called Peyton's production "garbage" in games where his line was struggling, even though that production far exceeds what Roethlisberger typically achieves. So if Brady was "just average" throwing for 4000/26, and Peyton was "garbage" throwing for numbers that pace out to 4200/26, what does that make 3300/17? What does that make 3500/18?

This thread as the title has clearly attracted a large number of Steeler homers that love their guy. If you look at the top 10 QBs thread going on right now most people aren't even discussing Big Ben in the group with Rivers/Brees, much less in the same sentence as Manning/Brady.

 

[ClownDogs]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.Not in any way saying Ben is in the same tier as Peyton/Brady, just if everyone is gonna talk about how the Steelers Def is why ben is soooooo good, don't forget how bad his line is compared to the other two, that's all.

The number of sacks isn't completely dependent on the line. The QB makes a big difference. For example the Patriots OL has the same starters for the last 3 years except for injuries. In 2007 Brady had 578 passing attempts and was sacked 21 times. (3.5%) This year he has 490 attempts and 15 sacks. (just under 3%) Last year Cassel playing behind the same line had 516 attempts and was sacked 47 times. (8.35%) This year playing in KC he has 392 attempts and 40 sacks. (9.26%) Perhaps the difference between Brady and Cassel's sack rates behind the same line can be explained by something other than how quickly they get rid of the ball but that seems the most likely explanation.

Don't recall saying anything at all about number of sacks. I just stated that he OLine is atrocious for Ben. I know Ben is a factor in ALOT of those sacks, but he also gets out of ALOT of sacks. That is why i don't consider sacks alone the main reason why the OLine is that bad.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.

Not in any way saying Ben is in the same tier as Peyton/Brady, just if everyone is gonna talk about how the Steelers Def is why ben is soooooo good, don't forget how bad his line is compared to the other two, that's all.

The number of sacks isn't completely dependent on the line. The QB makes a big difference. For example the Patriots OL has the same starters for the last 3 years except for injuries. In 2007 Brady had 578 passing attempts and was sacked 21 times. (3.5%) This year he has 490 attempts and 15 sacks. (just under 3%) Last year Cassel playing behind the same line had 516 attempts and was sacked 47 times. (8.35%) This year playing in KC he has 392 attempts and 40 sacks. (9.26%) Perhaps the difference between Brady and Cassel's sack rates behind the same line can be explained by something other than how quickly they get rid of the ball but that seems the most likely explanation.

Don't recall saying anything at all about number of sacks. I just stated that he OLine is atrocious for Ben. I know Ben is a factor in ALOT of those sacks, but he also gets out of ALOT of sacks. That is why i don't consider sacks alone the main reason why the OLine is that bad.

I really started watching a lot more of the Steelers this year (acquired Holmes in the offseason), and I really don't see what all the hubbub is about. Yes, they're certainly not a good offensive line, but they're nowhere near the blown up mess that Steelers fans make them out to be.Roethlisberger takes a lot of sacks where he held the ball too long. He takes a lot of sacks where he has a perfect pocket and instead tries to scramble and ends up running right into the arms of a lineman that's engaged with a blocker. And he takes a lot of sacks where he just misreads a blitz. Sure, the line gets beat sometimes in non-blitz scenarios, but that's true of any line.

Here's an interesting stat...

In his time in Pittsburgh, Roethlisberger has taken a sack in 1 out of every 10 dropbacks.

In his time in Pittsburgh, Charlie Batch has taken a sack in 1 out of every 27 dropbacks.

In fact, the two have played in the same game twice back in 2006. In week 7 Roethlisberger was sacked 3 times in 22 dropbacks against Atlana, then Batch came in and was sacked 0 times in 13 dropbacks. Then in week 16 Roethlisberger was sacked 5 times against Baltimore, and Batch came in and was sacked 0 times on 11 dropbacks.

 

[ClownDogs]

U put Peyton or Brady behind Ben's OLine and dont' think they last half a season.

Not in any way saying Ben is in the same tier as Peyton/Brady, just if everyone is gonna talk about how the Steelers Def is why ben is soooooo good, don't forget how bad his line is compared to the other two, that's all.

The number of sacks isn't completely dependent on the line. The QB makes a big difference. For example the Patriots OL has the same starters for the last 3 years except for injuries. In 2007 Brady had 578 passing attempts and was sacked 21 times. (3.5%) This year he has 490 attempts and 15 sacks. (just under 3%) Last year Cassel playing behind the same line had 516 attempts and was sacked 47 times. (8.35%) This year playing in KC he has 392 attempts and 40 sacks. (9.26%) Perhaps the difference between Brady and Cassel's sack rates behind the same line can be explained by something other than how quickly they get rid of the ball but that seems the most likely explanation.

Don't recall saying anything at all about number of sacks. I just stated that he OLine is atrocious for Ben. I know Ben is a factor in ALOT of those sacks, but he also gets out of ALOT of sacks. That is why i don't consider sacks alone the main reason why the OLine is that bad.

I really started watching a lot more of the Steelers this year (acquired Holmes in the offseason), and I really don't see what all the hubbub is about. Yes, they're certainly not a good offensive line, but they're nowhere near the blown up mess that Steelers fans make them out to be.Roethlisberger takes a lot of sacks where he held the ball too long. He takes a lot of sacks where he has a perfect pocket and instead tries to scramble and ends up running right into the arms of a lineman that's engaged with a blocker. And he takes a lot of sacks where he just misreads a blitz. Sure, the line gets beat sometimes in non-blitz scenarios, but that's true of any line.

Here's an interesting stat...

In his time in Pittsburgh, Roethlisberger has taken a sack in 1 out of every 10 dropbacks.

In his time in Pittsburgh, Charlie Batch has taken a sack in 1 out of every 27 dropbacks.

Just curious what u are trying to point out with this stat? I think everyone (especially steelers fans) KNOW that ben takes a ton of sacks that he shouldn't have. But he also gets away from a ton of sacks also, so gotta lose some to win some, jsut the nature of how Ben plays.

 

[menobrown]

sgtrobo, you're missing words in the sentences you're quoting that are the entire basis of the sentence, and the numbers you're bring up have nothing to do with them.

"It's true that Peyton laid up some stinkers in the playoffs early on in his career, but to say the playoff losses the last handful of years are on him is ridiculous. His QB rating in Indy's playoff LOSSES in that timespan are higher than Big Ben's QB rating in Pitt's playoff WINS during his tenure."

The underline/bold is what you were missing in your response. Like I said, he sucked in the playoffs early in his career, but the last 5 years or so he's been good in the playoffs, yet the record still hasn't been nearly as good as Roethlisberger's. Why? Because he's not playing with a top 3 defense every year.

"One thing that you won't see out of Peyton though is him put up 13 net offensive points for the first 57 minutes of a game against a Cardinals team with a vaunted offense and still have a chance to win it at the end thanks to his defense."

Comparing defensive performances between a Cardinals team with a top offense and a Ravens team with a bad one isn't exactly on par. The Cardinals were a top 5 total offense, the Ravens barely a top 20. When Indy has played against good offenses in the playoffs, they've bled like a sieve defensively.But this is all just playoffs, which I won't deny over the last 5 years Roethlisberger has been at least on par with Manning. But that leaves out, you know, the entire rest of equation which as we've seen, without a top defense Roethlisberger can't even seem to GET to those playoffs. I mean, does anyone really believe that Pitt would have even MADE the playoffs in the 2005 super bowl year without that defense? What about last year? Yeah they were 12-4, but an 11-5 team missed the playoffs. They won games 10-6, 11-10, and 13-9 last year. Without that defense they lose all those games and don't even make the playoffs. Those Super Bowl teams aren't even in the PLAYOFFS without a top 3 defense those two years.

One thing that I find really interesting about this is some of the Stiller fans calling Brady's production "just average" before Moss/Welker arrived, even though that production far exceeds what Roethlisberger typically achieves. Then further, they've called Peyton's production "garbage" in games where his line was struggling, even though that production far exceeds what Roethlisberger typically achieves. So if Brady was "just average" throwing for 4000/26, and Peyton was "garbage" throwing for numbers that pace out to 4200/26, what does that make 3300/17? What does that make 3500/18?

Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and check out of this thread as the title has clearly attracted a large number of Steeler homers that love their guy. If you look at the top 10 QBs thread going on right now most people aren't even discussing Big Ben in the group with Rivers/Brees, much less in the same sentence as Manning/Brady.

A lot to cover in this post but I'll mainly stick to the highlighted parts.1. Yes the 11-5 Pats failed to make the playoffs last year and the Steelers won a lot of close games. So what. The Pats played a joke of a schedule while the Steelers played one the most difficult schedule in the NFL and one of the hardest schedules I've even seen a SB winner play. To go 12-4 a with the schedule they played was so far and away more impressive than the 11-5 weak Pats schedule and it's not even close.

2. To blame Ben for the Steelers not making the playoffs is really silly. First of all football is a team game. The same Pat's you spoke of going 11-5 last year did so without Brady and their record will probably be worse this year with Brady instead of Cassell. The reason the Steelers won't make the playoffs is they can't hold leads. It's not Ben's fault that after week 12 they were one of only two teams in the history of the NFL to not trail a game by 7 points and only be 6-6 while the other team that did that was 12-0.

3. People have short memories and are consumed with stats which is why people are not discussing Ben as much as being in the top group. After the SB last year Ben was mentioned by several people in the media as being in the same group as the big 2. Certainly Brees is having a better season than Ben and maybe he should be in the discussion along with guys like Rivers as well and for that matter why not include Favre?

4. Comparing their stats is fruitless in my opinion. It's pretty clear the Steelers scheme is not conducive to huge stats. Aikman wont 3 SB's and was a first ballot HOF and never threw more than 22 TD's in a season due to the scheme.

I think this is a great debate and what makes sports so much fun. Especially football were what a player does is so determined by his team. I don't think the Colts could possibly have a better QB to lead their team than Peyton Manning. The dome conditions they play in fit perfectly with his precision timing game. No way would Ben be as effective on the Colts as Peyton. Conversely I don't think Peyton would be as effective running the Steelers offense as Ben is running the offense due to weather conditions, lack of continuity with the same offense which Peyton has always had and the supporting cast.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

1. Yes the 11-5 Pats failed to make the playoffs last year and the Steelers won a lot of close games. So what. The Pats played a joke of a schedule while the Steelers played one the most difficult schedule in the NFL and one of the hardest schedules I've even seen a SB winner play. To go 12-4 a with the schedule they played was so far and away more impressive than the 11-5 weak Pats schedule and it's not even close.

You missed my point entirely. My point was that a team had to finish 11-5 or better to make the playoffs in the AFC last year. Pittsburgh was 12-4. Without their defense single handidly winning them 3 games that the offense stunk it up in by holding the opponent to less than 10 points, Pittsburgh would not have even made the playoffs last year. I'll get to why that's important below.

2. To blame Ben for the Steelers not making the playoffs is really silly. First of all football is a team game. The same Pat's you spoke of going 11-5 last year did so without Brady and their record will probably be worse this year with Brady instead of Cassell. The reason the Steelers won't make the playoffs is they can't hold leads. It's not Ben's fault that after week 12 they were one of only two teams in the history of the NFL to not trail a game by 7 points and only be 6-6 while the other team that did that was 12-0.

Again, you're missing my point. My point is that most people arguing for Big Ben in this argument are sticking strictly to the argument that he's been solid in the postseason. To have an argument like Manning/Big Ben and narrow the entire thing down to 8 games is ridiculous. You can't discount the fact that Peyton leads his team to the playoffs every year no matter how good or bad his defense is, whereas Roethlisberger's poor/mediocre regular season play at times (many times) has led to a team that wouldn't have even been IN the playoffs if there wasn't a top 3 defense doing all the legwork for them. If Roethlisberger had played with Peyton's defenses the last 5 years, we wouldn't even been having a conversation comparing how each of them have done in the playoffs, because Roethlisberger wouldn't even have a playoff game to compare to.Again, BOTH of Pittsburgh's super bowl teams would have missed the playoffs if they had lost just 1 or 2 more games. You can't tell me that the difference between a top 3 defense and a mediocre/bad defense isn't going to have been more than 1 or 2 games, especially when they were winning some of those games 10-9 and 13-6 because the defense bailed them out.Being good in the playoffs is a major asset. But you can't just turn it on in January after doing nothing all year and then be mentioned as an elite quarterback. Because eventually, that defense won't be there to do the September through December heavy lifting for you. Sort of like this year, where the offense is no worse than it was in the Super Bowl years, and the defense isn't even bad (just middle of the pack instead of best in the league), and they're going to miss the playoffs altogether.

 

[menobrown]

1. Yes the 11-5 Pats failed to make the playoffs last year and the Steelers won a lot of close games. So what. The Pats played a joke of a schedule while the Steelers played one the most difficult schedule in the NFL and one of the hardest schedules I've even seen a SB winner play. To go 12-4 a with the schedule they played was so far and away more impressive than the 11-5 weak Pats schedule and it's not even close.

You missed my point entirely. My point was that a team had to finish 11-5 or better to make the playoffs in the AFC last year. Pittsburgh was 12-4. Without their defense single handidly winning them 3 games that the offense stunk it up in by holding the opponent to less than 10 points, Pittsburgh would not have even made the playoffs last year. I'll get to why that's important below.

2. To blame Ben for the Steelers not making the playoffs is really silly. First of all football is a team game. The same Pat's you spoke of going 11-5 last year did so without Brady and their record will probably be worse this year with Brady instead of Cassell. The reason the Steelers won't make the playoffs is they can't hold leads. It's not Ben's fault that after week 12 they were one of only two teams in the history of the NFL to not trail a game by 7 points and only be 6-6 while the other team that did that was 12-0.

Again, you're missing my point. My point is that most people arguing for Big Ben in this argument are sticking strictly to the argument that he's been solid in the postseason. To have an argument like Manning/Big Ben and narrow the entire thing down to 8 games is ridiculous. You can't discount the fact that Peyton leads his team to the playoffs every year no matter how good or bad his defense is, whereas Roethlisberger's poor/mediocre regular season play at times (many times) has led to a team that wouldn't have even been IN the playoffs if there wasn't a top 3 defense doing all the legwork for them. If Roethlisberger had played with Peyton's defenses the last 5 years, we wouldn't even been having a conversation comparing how each of them have done in the playoffs, because Roethlisberger wouldn't even have a playoff game to compare to.Again, BOTH of Pittsburgh's super bowl teams would have missed the playoffs if they had lost just 1 or 2 more games. You can't tell me that the difference between a top 3 defense and a mediocre/bad defense isn't going to have been more than 1 or 2 games, especially when they were winning some of those games 10-9 and 13-6 because the defense bailed them out.Being good in the playoffs is a major asset. But you can't just turn it on in January after doing nothing all year and then be mentioned as an elite quarterback. Because eventually, that defense won't be there to do the September through December heavy lifting for you. Sort of like this year, where the offense is no worse than it was in the Super Bowl years, and the defense isn't even bad (just middle of the pack instead of best in the league), and they're going to miss the playoffs altogether.

Dude I did not miss any of your points but I understand that's a popular response when your points are shot down.

 

[Dought Man]

Generally, the only people who feel Ben is in the top 3 QB's are Steelers fans. Is that fairly safe to say?

 

[Ghost Rider]

In fact how many QB's have won a SB with different HC's? All I can think of is Ben and Aikman.

You forget about a fellow named Joe Montana?

Generally, the only people who feel Ben is in the top 3 QB's are Steelers fans. Is that fairly safe to say?

Probably. I feel Roethlisberger is borderline top 5, but not top 3. He is a notch or two below P. Manning, Brees, a healthy Brady, Warner and Rivers.

 

[Tau837]

If you look at the top 10 QBs thread going on right now most people aren't even discussing Big Ben in the group with Rivers/Brees, much less in the same sentence as Manning/Brady.

And rightly so. Roethlisberger deserves to be ranked somewhere in the 7-10 range.

 

[ClownDogs]

In fact how many QB's have won a SB with different HC's? All I can think of is Ben and Aikman.

You forget about a fellow named Joe Montana?

Generally, the only people who feel Ben is in the top 3 QB's are Steelers fans. Is that fairly safe to say?

Probably. I feel Roethlisberger is borderline top 5, but not top 3. He is a notch or two below P. Manning, Brees, a healthy Brady, Warner and Rivers.

Ranking rivers ahead of him, we talking about "stats" or leading your team to 2 super bowls? i assume stats since River's hasn't done the latter as of yet......just sayin....

 

[dwyadog]

toughest schedule? they went 6-0 in their division in 2008 mostly due to their defense stopping the ravens cold they had the #1 D and the #20 offense.

they were 1-4 against quality teams and that one win came against a pats team with no brady. their D held the ravens to 9 and the chargers to 10 in one game. their defense wins them 4-5 games a year with ben having to do nothing but not turn it over and score 13 points. ben is great but he isnt elite, i reserve that word for top 5 and he benefits enormously from his situation, all qb's do to varying extents but roth wouldnt have any rings nor have made the playoffs without stellar, stellar, point-scoring defenses. he holds onto the ball too long. his ypa is great but its coming down now that he doesnt also have an awesome running game. theyre an 8-8 team when the ball doesnt bounce their way and their defense isnt top 2 and scoring points.

the comparison for offense line/sacks between cassel and roth is quite apt.

 

[Tau837]

In fact how many QB's have won a SB with different HC's? All I can think of is Ben and Aikman.

You forget about a fellow named Joe Montana?

Generally, the only people who feel Ben is in the top 3 QB's are Steelers fans. Is that fairly safe to say?

Probably. I feel Roethlisberger is borderline top 5, but not top 3. He is a notch or two below P. Manning, Brees, a healthy Brady, Warner and Rivers.

Ranking rivers ahead of him, we talking about "stats" or leading your team to 2 super bowls? i assume stats since River's hasn't done the latter as of yet......just sayin....

Depends on the question. Who is better is a different question than who has had a better career and/or is more accomplished. Ben is thus far more accomplished. But Rivers is a better QB... he has played the QB position better this year and was better last year too.ETA: Rivers was better in 2006 too. So in the 4 seasons both have been starters, Rivers has outplayed Roethlisberger 3 times, with 2007 being the only exception.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Ranking rivers ahead of him, we talking about "stats" or leading your team to 2 super bowls? i assume stats since River's hasn't done the latter as of yet......just sayin....

Would you say the same about Brees? He is less accomplished in the playoffs than Rivers, but most would call Brees either 1a or 1b right now, and almost everyone would say he is better than BR.

 

[ClownDogs]

Ranking rivers ahead of him, we talking about "stats" or leading your team to 2 super bowls? i assume stats since River's hasn't done the latter as of yet......just sayin....

Would you say the same about Brees? He is less accomplished in the playoffs than Rivers, but most would call Brees either 1a or 1b right now, and almost everyone would say he is better than BR.

I am not saying Ben is better than Rivers, was just asking him how he came about to Rivers being above Ben, that's all.And i am in no way saying that Ben is above Brees, Brady, Peyton or possibly Rivers cause he won 2 super bowls, if there were the case, Dilfer would be ahead of Brees/Rivers. Peyton/Brady are in a class of their own imo. The next group would have Brees, Rivers, Rodgers and imho, Ben, what kind of accomplishments people use to rank them varies tremendously. If u use QB passing skills alone, Brees is head and shoulders above the the others. If u use super bowl wins, Ben is above them. U can't forget that fact that Ben does have 2 super bowls and that HAS to mean something, even with a top Def, right?I am a die hard steelers homer, just want to make sure that everyone doesn't think i have Ben in the top 3. Just hard to rank him outside the top 6 based on his stats and accomplishments.