IEllingson
Footballguy
I think it's funny how everyone thinks Denver will actually spend a #1 on a RB, I would say that has about 3% of being true.I expect them to go LB or WR.
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Bengals/Broncos Trade (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter bshipper
- Start date
Deltha is a garbage CB. He might be considered a bad version of T-Buck. His MO is giving up the big play because he gambles too much. You always have to have a saftey over the top of him due to his "ability" to get beat deep. He is a solid return man, but that seems to be his only skill the Donkeys would have used him for. He does have first round talent, but the word around Denver is that he has become a real "me" type of player and Denver has spent the offseason getting these players out of town. He has the potential to became a solid CB and for his sake I hope Marvin Lewis can bring it out of him. It won't seem like Denver waisted a first round pick on him. 
After seeing this move my, first thought is of the teams they moved ahead of....mainly Dalas and NE....teams that many mocks have taking a RB. I see them now taking Jackson or Jones IF they keep the Bungles pick.
After seeing this move my, first thought is of the teams they moved ahead of....mainly Dalas and NE....teams that many mocks have taking a RB. I see them now taking Jackson or Jones IF they keep the Bungles pick.If the Broncos are thinking about winning this year they better not go with an RB early on. Some very talented backs will be there for them later on. If they can fill out their defense and perhaps grab a WR they might be in shape to make a run this year. They have more then enough backs to handle the load this year. They can find something late or they can wait till next year. Who knows? Maybe Griffin can even be the back for the future.
Floyd The Barber
Footballguy
Pony Boy wrote:
I agree with this. They just slid up a few slots to bring in whatever taty morsel falls into their lap. Of course Skeletor has wasted more 1st round picks on slags like O'Neal and Middlebrooks than I can recall.Because of that fact, I think WR first, followed by RB and TE.Cheers!
bueno
In a class by himself
I did a quick perusal of 18 published mock drafts. Here is a breakdown of the players the Broncos may have moved up to target:
CB 26 picks in 18 drafts (I think this unlikley.)
Robinson heads the list here with 8 appearances, followed by Gamble with 6 and Hall and Poole with 5.
DE 6 picks in 18 drafts (With so few appearances, I doubt this is where they're going either.)
Odom has 5 of 6 appearances.
de/olb tweeners - 8 picks in 18 drafts Unlikely.
Will Smith has 7 appeaances in the mocks.
DT 17 picks in 18 drafts This can't be ruled out as a possibility.
Starks heads the list with 8 appeances, Dockett has 4, everyone else 2 or less.
OLB 20 appearances in 18 mocks This is where I think they'll go.
D.J. Williams gets 8 appearances
Vilma gets 9
Dansby gets 3
RB 23 appearances in 18 mocks (A possibility, but I don't buy it.)
Stephen Jackson appears 13 times
Kevin Jones 7 times
Greg Jones twice
Chris Perry once.
RT 18 appearances in 18 mocks (While not likely, the Broncos are moving Lepsis to LT, so who fills the hole?
Shawn Andrews appears 10 times
Vernon Carey 8 times.
WR 5 appearances in 18 mocks Given how few WRs are going in the mocks in this interval, trading up for a WR makes no sense whatsoever. They need one, but will have to trade up higher to get one.
Woods and Reggie Williams appear twice each, Clayton appears once.
TE 2 time in 18 mocks Not very likely.
Troupe both times.
Free Safety - once in 18 mocks Not very likely.
Sean Taylor just won't fall this far - I didn't say all the mocks I looked at were real high quality.
Okay, if they stay here, I think the odds favor the intersection of opportunity and need and they'll go for either Vilma or D.J. Williams. They can pick up Watson and a decent WR in the second round, and wait for RB until later.
(edited to clean up formatting)
CB 26 picks in 18 drafts (I think this unlikley.)
Robinson heads the list here with 8 appearances, followed by Gamble with 6 and Hall and Poole with 5.
DE 6 picks in 18 drafts (With so few appearances, I doubt this is where they're going either.)
Odom has 5 of 6 appearances.
de/olb tweeners - 8 picks in 18 drafts Unlikely.
Will Smith has 7 appeaances in the mocks.
DT 17 picks in 18 drafts This can't be ruled out as a possibility.
Starks heads the list with 8 appeances, Dockett has 4, everyone else 2 or less.
OLB 20 appearances in 18 mocks This is where I think they'll go.
D.J. Williams gets 8 appearances
Vilma gets 9
Dansby gets 3
RB 23 appearances in 18 mocks (A possibility, but I don't buy it.)
Stephen Jackson appears 13 times
Kevin Jones 7 times
Greg Jones twice
Chris Perry once.
RT 18 appearances in 18 mocks (While not likely, the Broncos are moving Lepsis to LT, so who fills the hole?
Shawn Andrews appears 10 times
Vernon Carey 8 times.
WR 5 appearances in 18 mocks Given how few WRs are going in the mocks in this interval, trading up for a WR makes no sense whatsoever. They need one, but will have to trade up higher to get one.
Woods and Reggie Williams appear twice each, Clayton appears once.
TE 2 time in 18 mocks Not very likely.
Troupe both times.
Free Safety - once in 18 mocks Not very likely.
Sean Taylor just won't fall this far - I didn't say all the mocks I looked at were real high quality.
Okay, if they stay here, I think the odds favor the intersection of opportunity and need and they'll go for either Vilma or D.J. Williams. They can pick up Watson and a decent WR in the second round, and wait for RB until later.
(edited to clean up formatting)
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Shanahan has a history of drafting players that he expects to contribute in their second year. Often "reaching" for players at positions where the only need is depth. It by no means suggests that they will take a RB in the 1st (in fact I really like DJ Williams) but I would not be at all surprised to see them draft S Jackson. Jackson may have hurt himself by staying and having an average senior year.Everyone is asking how the Broncos are going to replace Portis but Jackson reminds me a great deal of TD. More of a bruiser that can punish the defense AND keep them on the field. Denver's defense is a lot better when they are on the bench.
Took the words out of my mouth. Denver bascially gave up nothing today to move up 7 spots.This could be a move to put them in better position to move into the top 10 to grab Winslow if Sharpe retires.Offering the #17 and #41 pick will be more appealing to a team then #24 and #41.Plus, if Sharpe doesn't retire, it give them many possibilities at #17. At #17 they could go any direction and grab a quality RB, WR, LB, DT, CB. At #24 their options change to probably WR, LB, CB, TE.Plus, if Jackson and/or Jones are there at #17, who says they don't swing a deal with Dallas or NE and move back down a few spots and pick up and extra pick somewhere else.I really believe they do not have one player targeted. I think this was simply a way to give them more options come draft day.
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EastBayFunk
Footballguy
I don't think they moved up to get Steven Jackson. His playing style doesn't seem to mesh too well with their system. Hearst and Griffin are two backs with good shiftiness and quickness. Jackson is more of a workhorse back in the Eddie George/Ricky Williams mold. I think Shanahan will want more of a gamebreaker and if they take a RB in the first I expect it to be Kevin Jones. I think it's worth noting that Jones has had private workouts with three teams that I know of: Dallas, New England, and Denver. While I mentioned that they might trade up to get a WR, it doesn't make a lot of sense unless they got a tip that Reggie Williams will slide to #17. A guy like Woods or Clayton doesn't warrant a move up considering the depth in this year's draft. I doubt that they're after Evans seeing as they already have a deep threat in Lelie. What they need is a bigger WR who can work the intermediate routes. My guess is that they'll wait until rounds two and three where they'll have a chance at solid players like Keary Colbert and Devard Darling. They're said to like Johnnie Morant, but he is a big time project. Kiper has him projected as a second round pick and I'm not sure if the Broncos can afford to gamble on him quite so high. My guess is that they either take Kevin Jones, Randy Starks, Vince Wilfork, Jonathan Vilma, or DJ Williams.
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AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Agree. Bad move for the Bungles, IMO.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
I think it is a good trade for Denver--Oneal was like a 3rd player you throw out in a FFL trade just to even out the trade. He was completely on the outs with Shannyand was not going to be any part of this team.Regardless #17 gives the Broncos options whatever they chose to do.I don't necessarily think it was that bad for Cin. either. Oneal has shown what he can do and might find himself again under Lewis. 
To both teams For this time of year!!
To both teams For this time of year!!
RAIDERNATION.
Footballguy
Precisely! I had to wade through 50-something speculative posts before reading one that is most likely accurate. Folks, Shanahan himself couldn't tell you right now who they will end up with at 1.17. There are too many variables in the sixteen picks before Denver's selection. This could be something as simple as the fact that the Broncos identified ONLY 16 or 17 impact players in this draft... 16 or 17 "difference makers"... guys who can be a big part in helping them win NOW. Perhaps they felt that sitting tight at #24 would yield them nothing but a project, instead of a player who can be immediately plugged in.It's fun to speculate on what every move means, but it's hard to predict these things.
rebel34
Footballguy
Excellent move by the Broncos IMHO. There are 2 scenarios I see going down: 1) DJ Williams @ 172) Package 17 plus one of the 2nd rounders (?) to move up and take K2 (Winslow)RB will be adressed in the middle rounds. Word out of Dove Valley is that they love Julius Jones.I love this time of year!
I have to agree with Raidernation. I think this deal is more about Denver being able to move up seven spots for a better chance at an impact player. My guess is they have a few guys they like that they didn't feel would be there at #24. The deal was initiated by the Bengals from the get go. I heard that Lewis has been looking at O'Neal for two months now as a first round talent that could benefit from a change of scenery. Meanwhile the Broncos only give up a 4th rounder and a player they don't like anymore to move into a better position to either trade up again or pick one of the so-called impact players that will be there at #17 or a player that slides down in the draft. There always seems to be a couple of those.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Great move for both teams. Lewis is trying to add speed to both sides of the ball and special teams with the Bengals. They also have a glaring void at CB. O'Neal helps in both aspects. The Bengals have mulitple areas of needs and could find a starter or major contributor at 17 or 24. They also got the fourth rounder which will make it easier for them to gamble on Clarett in the second round (heard it here first) if he is there. Apparently, Denver has one or two players in mind and determined by jumping over some teams with identical needs they will have a great chance to get that player.Who Dey!!!
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
I think it is a great move for both teams as well - and the best thing that could happen for Deltha.The Bengals picked up another pick in the fourth - so they have a lot of picks on the first day - they got a player at a need position (CB) - the position they probably would have addressed with the #17 pick if they could have - and they only moved down 7 spots. They can probably still find a WR, LB, or DB/S at the #24 spot who will make a difference an dhopefully start within the next year. They really didn't give up much moving out of the top-20 and they got back three players (Deltha, the #24 pick and an extra fourth).For the Donkeys, they got INTO the top 20 where the players with the most opp to impact exist. After the top-20, the picks are excellent value at WR, LB, and RB, though they are all players that probably need a little time to develop and are not the instant impact players that exist in the top-20 - the top-20 is where your incredible DTs and DEs, your super star CBs, and your top notch LTs, WRs, and QBs reside. My guess is that the top-20 will be 3 DT, 4 DE, 1 LB, 3 CB/S, 3 QBs, 2 WRs, 2 LTs, 1 TE and 1 RB. I think most would also agree that the players I am thinking of are all potentially instant impact players - these are the Big Ben, Wilfork, Taylor, Rivers, Fitzgerald, MLewis, SJackson, Gallery, Andrews players.Someone not in the top 10, but projected in the top 15 will probably fall to #17 - that's the guy the Donkeys moved up for. I don't think they moved up to secure a guy like Ben Troupe or Stephen Jackson - the team could have stood pat and grabbed Kevin Jones or Troupe if he fell or they could have dropped out of the first and picked up other picks and still got almost as good a player if they are playing the position game - or they could have stayed at #24 and addressed another first round need - WR. I just don't think they moved up for a specific player - I think they moved up to increase their options. I believe the team has spied quite a few players they like and think will be in the #10 to #19 range, but probably won't drop to the #20 to #24 range. I doubt they see Troupe as a player that wouldn't drop to #24, nor do I believe they moved up only to #17 hoping to have a shot at Jackson (especially when #24 would have yielded a RB, and the 2nd and 3rd will yield a better value at RB).I sincerely doubt Shannie advocated moving up to get one specific player - it was to get one of the top-20 players, whichever is the best available at that #17 spot - it gives the team a significantly (IMO) better player than would have dropped to #24.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I doubt very seriously whether Denver did this for one particular player. Those kind of deals are done on draft day when you know the guy is there. Even more remote, IMO, is they did it for the RB position. I'd guess they'll use it on D or possibly a WR. I could see them moving up further, as well.
EastBayFunk
Footballguy
I don't think they would have given up a 4th round pick without a plan.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
What greater plan than "into the top-20" do they need - they went from a playoff first round pick to a "draft a potential Pro Bowler" pick.Do you think they did it for a specific player or for some other "plan." They certainly made the move for a REASON, though that may not neceesarily be what you mean by "a plan."
EastBayFunk
Footballguy
You can't draft Pro Bowlers outside of the first two thirds of the first round? That's news to me. Most NFL teams aren't stupid. They don't move up for the sake of moving up. They move up because they have one or two players in mind who they specifically want.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
I see why you would take my statement as saying you can only get Pro Bowlers in the first 20 picks, but that was not what I was trying to convey.I was trying to short-hand my thesis above that the perceived "can't miss" prospects exist in the first 20 picks, while the players who are perceived to need at least some development reside at 20 and below (except, of course, for those excellent values at WR - top-20 talent WRs will be dropping pretty low this year due to Fitz and Lewis). Of course, I am also not implying the team is stupid - stupid would be trading up for a specific player you might not get - and trading up before draft day is not good insurance if you want a specific player. Trading up prior to the draft is to open up the possibility of more options.I see what you are saying, I was just wondering how you defined a "plan." Now I see you believe the team traded up to #17 in order to get one or two specific players. That I strongly disagree with. I strongly believe the trade was not to insure a specific impact player, but to insure a selection of possible impact players. At #24, the team was looking at a swift erosion of the players they coveted, and were hoping for a player to drop to #24 - at #17 they likely have their selection of almost all the players they were hoping would drop to #24, and they are opened up to the possibilities of an even BETTER player dropping to them in the first. I really strongly disagree with the notion that the team is in love with any one or two specific players that they traded up for. There would be SOME inkling of who the Donkeys are in love with in the media, and the only name I've heard realistically is Troupe. Makes no sense, IMO, for the team to give up as much as they did to trade up to #17 for Troupe. Another name bandied about was Jackson - the team wanted to leapfrog New England to get to Jackson. Again, a very risky move as a few teams above #17 might draft Jackson, thus defeating the move.In short, I think the team NOW has their eye on well more than one or two players and they made the move to make sure they had a shot at any of the players the team has at #11 though #20 on their draft board (assuming their top 10 are gone by the #17 spot - and I would guess guys like Manning, Taylor and Winslow will be gone, but are at the top of the team's draft board).Englishteacher
Footballguy
just a thought, but I bet the Broncos might have been in touch with Cincy about Corey Dillon and then got to talking about the ONEAL $ 1st ROUND DEAL
LOL. Denver has no interest in Corey Dillon unless he would agree to restructure his contract. Cincy missed out on Warren Sapp and does have a need at DT, so maybe a Dillon for Daryl Gardener trade could be worked out. Personally, as a Denver fan, I don't want to see Dillon in Bronco Blue.Actually, Denver had been talking with both Cincy and Detroit about an O'Neal trade for the past few weeks. So, it was only a matter of time before he was shipped somewhere. Denver was looking for a third or fourth round pick for O'Neal, but this might have worked out better for them.There was a comment mentioned earlier in this thread about O'Neal being cut, that was not going to be an option. Shanahan has said all this off-season that O'Neal would either play WR, be traded, or sit, he was not going to let him walk for free. When O'Neal said a few weeks ago he would not play WR, it left only the last two options.Luckily for both sides, the best option was chosen. Trading him.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Maybe - Cincie would like Gardner, and Gardner would like to reunite with Lewis from what I've read out here, but I think the two teams are in sypatico situations - both players will be cut very very soon if they aren't traded.There is no question that neither will show up to his respective team's training camps.P.S. - wouldn't both to the Raiders have made for an interesting story?
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Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
How would you have handled it?
Shanahan had it in for O'Neal after he was one of the players publicly questioning Ray Rhodes D schemes the year before - you know - the rush 2, drop 9 coverage schemes against Gannon & Manning. Rhodes never stepped up like a man and answered the criticism for the ridiculous D packages and instead players got the blame for the poor D performance publicly from Shanahan. That created a mini-muntiny on the back of a team plane home, where some players like Trevor Pryce and O'Neal were supposedly saying that they hoped Shanahan would take the University of Florida job and that they would be glad to see him go.Shanahan has found a way to publicly humiliate each of those players. I've been saying this for 3 years running now that Shanahan needs to go. Shanahan has worn out his welcome in DEN & I for one would be glad to see him leave. He doesn't have 2 future HoFers in the offensive backfield anymore, along with a future HoF OT, and he hasn't shown that he can be anything more than a barely-over-.500 coach without that kind of talent - which a lot of coaches could win with. The Broncos have made 2 playoff appearances in the past 5 years, and seriously dropped trou in both of them, getting killed in the first round by BAL & IND.Besides being a carbon copy of Napolean, his very questionable personnel decisions have really eroded the talent base of the team. I've give him props - when he had the overwhleming talent on offense he took advanatge & won two SBs. He knows RBs like no other coach in the league & can pick a plum out of a crap-pile over and over again at that position. But he knows very, very little about some other positions (QB, WR, DL, & CB especially) and has really hurt DEN with some terrible player moves at those spots.The guy has never developed a successful QB on his own, his gaffes at drafting or getting FA WRs & CBs are almost as legendary as his superior RB drafting abilities, and he seems to have no real clue about how to put together any kind of functioning DL. When you just don't put together decent talent at quite a few positions like that, then you pay some really bad FAs some serious jack & they end up doing little to nothing on the field and are bad actors in the locker room & off the field to boot, it gets really hard for players to put up with his tyrannical behavior.I'll be glad to see Shanahan go, and the Broncos will improve immediately the day it happens.How would you have handled it?
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cracKer
Shawn Culcasi
For one, I wouldn't have turned a Pro Bowl caliber cornerback into a #5 receiver. O'Neal has talent, and the Broncos needed to work on bringing that talent back to the surface, not drive him into the ground during what was probably his lowest career point.How would you have handled it?
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
O'Neal was definitely NOT getting the job done the last two years. But, I think Shanahan miscalculated that switchnig him to receiver would be a motivational tool for O'Neal - after the fiasco over Gardner and the mishandling of Clinton Portis' carries, I am beginning to think that the idea of Shannie being more of a "Little Napoleon" than a truly good coach is starting to take hold with me.This years is pivotol - not for his career, as I don't believe even missing the playoffs this year and next would cost Shannie his job - but it is pivotol in the fan base's attitude towards him.
What is his record since Elway left again? Has he won more than one playoff game? I am genuinely asking that question, BTW, b/c my impression is that Shannie has had a variety of personnel gettting TO the playoffs, but no winning since Elway left.
cracKer
Shawn Culcasi
I won't argue this point, 'cuz it's true. But with cornerback being the the most demanding "confidence" position on the field, I think they could've have handled it better (back to what I originally said). With Jimmy Spencer as a player/coach on the field, I'm thinking that he could've used more off-field tutoring and basic one-on-one life mentoring. He needed support, not to be drug around like he was.Maybe he was. This is just what I saw on the surface, and it may have gone much deeper than I'm giving it credit for.
DaveGrumbles
Footballguy
I would have not used the 15th overall pick to draft what was widely considered to be at best, the 5th best corner in that years draft. But then again I'm not the round 1 draft guru that Shanny is either...How would you have handled it?
The 5 years since Elway left:Regular season record: 44-36
Playoff record: 2 apperances
2000 Lost 21-3 vs BAL
2003 Lost 41-10 vs IND
List of players drafted at QB, WR, DL, & DB under Shanahan's reign (since 1995):
QB
2000 Jarious Jackson
1998 Brian Griese
1996 Jeff Lewis
WR
2003 Adrian Madise
2002 Ashley Lelie
2002 Herb Haygood
2001 Kevin Kasper
2000 Chris Cole
2000 Muneer Moore
2000 Leroy Fields
1999 Travis McGriff
1999 Chad Plummer
1999 Billy Miller
1998 Marcus Nash
1996 Patrick Jeffers
1995 Byron Chamberlain
DL
2003 Aaron Hunt
2003 Clint Mitchell
2003 Bryant McNeal
2003 Nicholas Eason
2002 Monsanto Pope
2002 Dorsett Davis
2001 Paul Toviessi
2001 Reggie Hayward
2000 Jerry Johnson
1999 David Bowens
1997 Trevor Pryce
1996 Mark Campbell
DB
2002 Sam Brandon
2002 Chris Young
2001 Willie Middlebrooks
2000 Deltha O'Neal
2000 Ian Gold
2000 Kenoy Kennedy
1999 Chris Watson
1999 Darwin Brown
1998 Eric Brown
1997 Cory Gilliard
1996 Tory James
1996 Darius Johnson
1996 Tony Veland
--------------------------------------------------------------
How's that for a list of players that strike fear in other teams' hearts? And that doesn't include some of his disasterous FA signings, though those can be offset by some good signings also.
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Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Excellent find, Pony Boy.As I suspected - he can't win in the playoffs, he has a HORRENDOUS draft record, and if it were not for finding gems of RBs and continally pumping out 1200-1600 yard rushers, his inability to find a decent DC, decent young defensive personnel, or a decent QB would have cost him his job by now.That said, Shannie is safe for the next couple of years (I think he got a big raise and extension a year or two ago that will guarantee him in Denver through 2005 or 6). He will start to feel the heat though in the next couple years - and this year the bad press will start if the team struggles.
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
Sorry, but blaming Rhodes' schemes doesn't quite do it for me. And the "mutiny on the plane trip" doesn't give him an excuse to suck...or quit.Furthermore, blaming Shanny's handling of Deltha's inability and/or lack of/loss of confidence (whatever you want to call it) as too harsh, also doesn't do it for me. 
He's a grown man, and a football player. Play. Others get by with coaches they don't agree with...And blaming "drafting him in the first place" doesn't answer the question of what you would have done with him, now. Come on. Besides, all coaches/management make mistakes in the draft each and every year.I think Shanny got great value in a player that was done on this team. And that, was my question..."What would you have done?" Not, "Who would you blame?"
He's a grown man, and a football player. Play. Others get by with coaches they don't agree with...And blaming "drafting him in the first place" doesn't answer the question of what you would have done with him, now. Come on. Besides, all coaches/management make mistakes in the draft each and every year.I think Shanny got great value in a player that was done on this team. And that, was my question..."What would you have done?" Not, "Who would you blame?"
Donnybrook
Footballguy
I know it not the Broncos MO to draft a QB - they have never drafted one before the 3rd Rd (Griese). But this year may be the exception. Didn't theylose almost every game when Plummer went down? Rumor has it that Jackson will be cut, and last month they were talking to Kordell Stewart. So I think they have "glaring need" for some sort of quality backup. I just find it surprising that the QB as a draft option is hardly even mentioned in this thread?
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Who would they take at #17? Too high for Losman when a remarkable talent at another position is almost sure to drop. I also doubt Losman drops to their pick in the 2nd.The reason it isn't mentioned is that unless they make another move up, it is unlikely they have a shot at one of the first round QBs - and they were already ahead of Green Bay, the likely Losman destination if he goes in the first.
Sonny, I don't think anyone disputes the move to trade him - but would you have really converted him to WR this past year? That was a real slap in the face to Deltha. "Yeah, you are a young former Pro Bowl CB going through a rough patch, but you haven't been good for us in a year and a half. Instead of coaching you better or trying harder with you, we're giving up on you at CB and moving you to WR." I think that is what folks are talking about.
That is true for sure, but Shannie has a craptacular record going at three big time need positions. And, he's thrown a lot of draft picks at those position - look at Pony Boy's list. That is a horrible batting record after spending a LOT of effort at three positions. And the worst part is that the best of the WR bunch - Lelie - seems to have had a stunted growth pattern. Have to look at the coach in that situation.I'll give Shannie this - the jury is still out on his DL picks, but the jury has come back screaming bloody murder at all those WR and DB picks.
Bigdee
Footballguy
A lot? hehehe I am pleased to see they actually got something from a player that was going to end up getting cut on June 1. O'Neal is another CB bust and is as worthless as a UN inspection team.....okay, not even worth that. Let's just say he owes Trent Green a healthy bonus for tossing him the 4 picks in the game that O'Neal has used to stretch his 15 minutes of fame into 3 years. Good riddance and auf wiedersehen to another chunk of dead weight on Denver's roster.The Rocky Mtn News had an article today about how this puts Denver ahead of the other 2 RB hungry teams in the league, possibly even to land Jackson. Now, all the mocks I have seen thus far have Jackson going to Detroit, but the article says this:"Numerous mock drafts had projected Jackson to go to the Patriots at #21 or the Cowboys at #22. But the Broncos have leapfrogged the two most running back needy teams, setting themselves up to draft Jackson or one of the highly rated Williams WRs, mike from USC or Reggie from Washington. Oakland with #2 and Detroit with #6 are also exploring the possibilty of moving back and still getting Jackson, but both are also aware they would need to land in front of Denver to grab the draft's best RB."Not sure what mocks they are looking at. I don't see Oakland letting Denver get their hands on another prime time RB if they can help it. I would predict they will take him at #2 if they can't trade down. Even if they don't, I can't see Jackson getting past Detroit. I would be very stoked if he did and Denver got him, but I won't hold my breath. One of the Williams' would be the most likely target, especially in light of Lelie's failure to live up to expectations.
I thought this was interesting. I also heard John Clayton say on ESPNews yesterday that he believes there are 23 impact players in this draft. If the Broncos perceive a similar dropoff after the top-23, then they just gave up very little really in order to ensure that they will get an impact player.Personally, I don't expect WR to be the selection given the depth at the position and the fact that the top-4 should be gone by #16. I do think the Miami LBs will get strong consideration though.
Also, this quote from the article above made me :rotflmao:
If Stephen Jackson goes to any team in the top-10, that would be a HUGE reach, IMO. I don't think there's any way the Lions take him at #6. If anything, they'll try to trade down and get him somewhere in the teens.Reggie or Mike Williams would definitely be a good fit for the Broncos if either slides to #17.
Isn't he still under contract with the Broncos? How could he sign somewhere else before he gets released?
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Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
Agreed.I think they are waiting for that, one of the RB's, or a LB...whatever is there.
Wildman
Footballguy
Losing Ian Gold for the season was a tough blow to the Broncos. Al Wilson is a nice player, but it is definitely time for Denver to find an LB. Denver is letting Gold field offers from other teams so the need will be there. Vilma or Williams are too enticing to pass up at that point of the draft and they'll likely be there for the picking. Some of the decent cornerback prospects will still likely be around by rounds 2-3. I'm speculating that Denver is getting in position to draft an LB in round 1 and then keep it flexible for either a CB, WR, or RB in rounds 2 & 3. Even so, I just don't see them drafting an RB. The last decade under Shanny is a good indicator that Denver doesn't draft RBs to "develop." Davis, Gary, Anderson, and Portis all wound up as rookie starters by the end of the year. RB is IMO is not really a position where a lot of development is expected to occur in the pro's. Once the pass blocking and receiving aspects of the position are acquired/improved upon, the player is ready to go. There's too much wear and tear on an RB to expect him to wait a few years on the bench and then let him loose. Sure it happens this way at times but it's not usually by design. Generally the starter gets hurt and the backup tears it up. Clarett, Jones, Moore, Cobbs, Turner, and Wilson are all decent backs that could slip to round 3 or 4. I think Denver is fine with waiting until later in day 1 for an RB. There may even be some interesting day 2 prospects. Cobbs could fall that far after his 40 time and off field issues. So could Wilson. And it's not hard to imagine that Denver is quite alright with the RB corps they now have for the coming season. I doubt Denver goes for a TE that early, either. Troupe or Watson will fall to round 2 and maybe lower. If not, Kris Wilson or Utecht are interesting receiving options that could be late first day-early second day picks due to the depth of this draft as a whole. Why doesn't anyone bring up the idea of Denver drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round? Plummer showed some signs of doing well, but once he got hurt the Broncos really struggled. Beuerlein is gone. Jarious Jackson? Please, they're about to cut him because he won't consider switching to safety. They pretty much gave Jackson an audition against Green Bay towards the season's end....I think they pick a guy to backup Plummer but could also push for a starting spot in down the road. I think the only QB they have on their roster other than Plummer is Nick Rolovich--the Hawaii alum that has seen some stints in NFL Europe the last couple of years. I just can't see Stephen Jackson falling that far in round 1. The RB crop in the top tiers is filled with RBs that have some glaring strengths but equally glaring weaknesses. They have to move up further to get Jackson--the only RB that has the least issues...and looking at the overrated thread today, I'd agree that he's overrated, too.
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Exactly how many mistakes are you willing to grant Shanahan?Okay, let's play your game. Shanahan drafted O'Neal. His ability to evaluate talent at DB is at least very questionable. O'Neal showed some serious flash a couple of years ago, but a lot of young CBs struggle in the NFL. O'Neal struggled in the NE game - and what does Shanny do? Switch him to WR. How exactly does that help O'Neal overcome his mistakes in that one game? How about teaching the kid how you want him to play, unless Shanahan is incapable of doing so. Now he'll most likely start for Marvin Lewis, along with another Shanahan cast off - Tory James.Sorry, but blaming Rhodes' schemes doesn't quite do it for me. And the "mutiny on the plane trip" doesn't give him an excuse to suck...or quit.
Furthermore, blaming Shanny's handling of Deltha's inability and/or lack of/loss of confidence (whatever you want to call it) as too harsh, also doesn't do it for me.
And blaming "drafting him in the first place" doesn't answer the question of what you would have done with him, now. Come on. Besides, all coaches/management make mistakes in the draft each and every year.
I think Shanny got great value in a player that was done on this team. And that, was my question..."What would you have done?" Not, "Who would you blame?"
So, you can't have it both ways. If O'Neal is just as bad as you are saying, then the axe falls on Shanahan for ever drafting him in the first place (can you say "Willie Middlebrooks, 1st round draft pick?) and goes to even further proof that he has no clue about DBs. If O'Neal ends up being a capable CB under Lewis in CIN, then Shanahan is a horse's ### for what he did to O'Neal and only goes to show that he can't determine any value whatsoever in DBs.
Either way, it's on Shanahan and what he did by switching O'Neal's position is just a flat out insult to the player. You think he's that bad - cut him. I thought Shanahan had this great reputation as a player's coach.
You say that O'Neal owes his rep to Trent Green with that 4 INT game? What about the other 5 INTs that O'Neal had that season? Let's toss out that 4 INT game. Those other 5 INTs, as well as his 5 INTs the next year, are 2 more INTs than any other player - DB, LB, or DL - that DEN has had in a seasn over the past 3 years. His 15 INTs over the past 3 years, including his very limited play at DB the past season, is only 1 less than the INTs over that same 3 years by ALL OTHER DEN DBs combined. What does THAT say about Shanahan's ability to find a decent DB?
Shanahan can't find any DLs to put pressure on the passer, and he can't find DBs who can play at the NFL level with any kind of consistency or decent ability - except for O'Neal - and yet he keeps getting free passes as DEN slips from complete mediocrity to who knows what in the next 2-3 years.
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