Bengals creeping toward the 3-4? (1 Viewer)

[Weiner Dog]

Bengals | Team reaches agreement in principle with S. Adams

Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:09:04 -0800

ESPN.com's Len Pasquarelli reports the Cincinnati Bengals have reached an agreement in principle with free agent DT Sam Adams (Bills) on an undisclosed contract. Financial details of the contract were not yet available, but sources said Adams can make about $4 million in 2006 if he reaches certain playing time and performance levels. The deal will likely not be signed until the weekend. There are still some details to be completed and it is believed the Bengals want Adams to take a physical exam before the deal is officially executed.

 

[Weiner Dog]

To expand on this topic...

Pollack is the prototype 3-4 OLB. Justin Smith is more than capable to play end in the 3-4. I'm not exactly sure how the LB's would shake-out, but I'd assume Thurman and Landon Johnson would be the starting ILB's, while Simmons would man the weakside OLB position.

DE: J Smith

NT: Adams

DE: J Thornton (1st and 2nd downs) with Geathers on 3rd downs

SOLB: Pollack

ILB: Thurman

ILB: L Johnson

WOLB: B Simmons

CB: O'Neal

SS: D Jackson

FS: M Williams

CB: James or Ratliff (flip a coin)

IMO, if Arrington is signed, the 3-4 is a lock. He'd probably bump L Johnson from the starting lineup and push Simmons inside.

SOLB: Pollack

ILB: Thurman

ILB: Simmons

WOLB: Arrington

 

[John Norton]

The 3-4 has been mentioned several times since the end of the season. Even if they don't go so far as to make it the base defense, its a given that they will use it some.

I really like the look of

SOLB: Pollack

ILB: Thurman

ILB: Simmons

WOLB: Arrington

Especially behind Sam Adams.

The only problem I see is that Justin Smith doesn't seem a good fit as a 3-4 end to me. At 275 he's a little undersized for that role and he's not particularly strong at the point of attack. Maybe he could join Andre Carter in Washington in '07

 

[TME]

Marvin's been "mulling" over it.

 

[inbreeder]

Nah, I'm not seeing it yet. I'll grant you that Marvin Lewis has been evasive about the 3-4 front in the past two weeks. And the Bengals probably have the backers to pull it off.

The line is the limiting factor here. Neither Justin Smith nor Robert Geathers are good fits as a 3-4 end. There's no way John Thornton holds up at end. It's possible that Marvin really likes the growing potential of Shaun Smith as a NT next year and sees a guy like Jonathan Fanene as a 3-4 end in the making and knows he probably can't keep Justin Smith around next year anyway. And maybe he's planning on taking a couple of 3-4 end types in the draft - there's quite a few to be had in the middle rounds this year. But that's a lot of maybes and possibles. And you'd think if Marvin was leaning that way after the selection of David Pollack, he would have moved on a 3-4 end like Chris Canty last year when he was available to them in the third and fourth rounds.

The Bengals probably weren't signing Arrington anyhow unless his asking price plummets. Now, with the addition of Adams (and maybe Joey Harrington as well), it's even less likely. They intend to put most of their cap space toward re-upping the OL.

I also don't think signing Sam Adams means anything to a 3-4 front. I know he's played NT in the 3-4 in the past but I think he's been brought in to collapse the middle on running downs and will probably play 20 or so snaps a game.

What's being overlooked here is the impact Sam Adams will have on Odell Thurman. Thornton, Smith, and Bryan Robinson did an adequate job of keeping the big men off of Thurman last season but Sam Adams is a whole 'nother class of human.

 

[inbreeder]

Oh, and by the way, as a Bengals fan....

 

[John Norton]

Nah, I'm not seeing it yet. I'll grant you that Marvin Lewis has been evasive about the 3-4 front in the past two weeks. And the Bengals probably have the backers to pull it off.

I agree completely. They don't have ALL the pieces in place to make the move at this point but I still believe we will see the look once in a while. The draft will give us a much better indication. There are always guys in the middle rounds who will fit at end in the 3-4. They don't have to be stellar athletes to get that job done, just big and strong enough to suck up tacklers.

I'm sitting on Thurman in a couple of dynasty leagues myself (and I'm a Bengals season ticket holder) so the Adams signing has me fired up.

 

[pretender]

Nah, I'm not seeing it yet. I'll grant you that Marvin Lewis has been evasive about the 3-4 front in the past two weeks. And the Bengals probably have the backers to pull it off.

The line is the limiting factor here. Neither Justin Smith nor Robert Geathers are good fits as a 3-4 end. There's no way John Thornton holds up at end. It's possible that Marvin really likes the growing potential of Shaun Smith as a NT next year and sees a guy like Jonathan Fanene as a 3-4 end in the making and knows he probably can't keep Justin Smith around next year anyway. And maybe he's planning on taking a couple of 3-4 end types in the draft - there's quite a few to be had in the middle rounds this year. But that's a lot of maybes and possibles. And you'd think if Marvin was leaning that way after the selection of David Pollack, he would have moved on a 3-4 end like Chris Canty last year when he was available to them in the third and fourth rounds.

The Bengals probably weren't signing Arrington anyhow unless his asking price plummets. Now, with the addition of Adams (and maybe Joey Harrington as well), it's even less likely. They intend to put most of their cap space toward re-upping the OL.

I also don't think signing Sam Adams means anything to a 3-4 front. I know he's played NT in the 3-4 in the past but I think he's been brought in to collapse the middle on running downs and will probably play 20 or so snaps a game.

What's being overlooked here is the impact Sam Adams will have on Odell Thurman. Thornton, Smith, and Bryan Robinson did an adequate job of keeping the big men off of Thurman last season but Sam Adams is a whole 'nother class of human.

So what would be the fantasy value of Justin Smith and Thurman with Sam Adams playing NT - do both lose value (lack of tackling opportunites and or sacks)?

 

[inbreeder]

So what would be the fantasy value of Justin Smith and Thurman with Sam Adams playing NT - do both lose value (lack of tackling opportunites and or sacks)?

I don't know that Thurman can be hyped much more. But a year of study and experience, plus a fatman hogging blockers in front of him will lead to big things. Guys like Ray Lewis and Jonathan Vilma had HUGE increases in tackle numbers in their second year.Justin Smith's value probably won't change as I don't think Adams will be on the field in passing situations at all.

 

[TME]

So what would be the fantasy value of Justin Smith and Thurman with Sam Adams playing NT - do both lose value (lack of tackling opportunites and or sacks)?

I don't know that Thurman can be hyped much more. But a year of study and experience, plus a fatman hogging blockers in front of him will lead to big things. Guys like Ray Lewis and Jonathan Vilma had HUGE increases in tackle numbers in their second year.

True but PT factored into those increases as well. Thurman was starting and an everydown guy from snap one, so do not expect as significant a jump. What will most likely hold Thurman back is that the Bengals offense is top tier and can take over and control a game. Plus, the defense does a good job of producing TO's and getting the ball back in the hands of the offense. Simply said, Thurman may not get enough snaps on defense to produce monster fantasy numbers.

 

[inbreeder]

So what would be the fantasy value of Justin Smith and Thurman with Sam Adams playing NT - do both lose value (lack of tackling opportunites and or sacks)?

I don't know that Thurman can be hyped much more. But a year of study and experience, plus a fatman hogging blockers in front of him will lead to big things. Guys like Ray Lewis and Jonathan Vilma had HUGE increases in tackle numbers in their second year.

True but PT factored into those increases as well. Thurman was starting and an everydown guy from snap one, so do not expect as significant a jump. What will most likely hold Thurman back is that the Bengals offense is top tier and can take over and control a game. Plus, the defense does a good job of producing TO's and getting the ball back in the hands of the offense. Simply said, Thurman may not get enough snaps on defense to produce monster fantasy numbers.

I will respectfully disagree with you here.Thurman rookie numbers

16 games

68 tackles, 35 assists (103 total)

1.5 sacks/5 INT/4 FF/1 TD

-----------------------------------

Lewis rookie numbers

14 games

94 tackles, 16 assists (110 total)

2.5 sacks/1 INT/0 FF or FR/0 TD

Lewis soph numbers

16 games

155 solos, 28 assists

4 sacks/1 INT/1 FF/1 FR

Vilma rookie numbers

16 games

77 solo, 30 assists

2 sacks/3 INT/1 FR

Vilma soph numbers

16 games

124 solos/45 assists

0.5 sack/1 INT/4 FF/1 FR

Vilma rookie numbers

I am NOT saying that Odell Thurman is Ray Lewis or even Jon Vilma. I am saying I think both are reasonable comps. Speedy backers who started nearly every game their rookie season. Guys who react well but made rookie errors - overrunning gaps, being out of position, etc.

Both guys made huge leaps in tackle numbers in their second seasons with a year of game experience and coaching under their belt.

I'm not buying the PT or big play defense angle either. Ray Lewis stood atop the rankings for years because he was part of such a defense not in spite of it. Thurman is a big part of many of those big plays - forcing and recovering fumbles, making INT off tipped passes, and coming on the blitz.

Thurman was a top 10 backer in most systems in 2006 until the last three weeks of the year when he was held out of some series with an arm injury after the Bengals had a playoff slot firmed up.

I was grilled this time last year for pimping Vilma as likely to see a huge bump in his tackle numbers. I don't think it's far out of line at all to suggest the same for Thurman. Even if the defense sees less snaps because of the improvement in run defense Adams may bring, I think Thurman will be the primary beneficiary.

I'll also grant that this comp doesn't work well for every rookie backer or every season. It wouldn't have applied to Zach Thomas or Nick Barnett. Those guys, for different reasons, got big tackle numbers their rookie year and didn't have nearly the room to improve. But be on the lookout for guys with talent, in good fantasy position, who put up 70-80 tackles the season before. Very often, you'll see a tackle explosion the following season.

 

[TME]

I am not trying to be argumentative. But my point is simple why Thurman may not see as big a jump. Thurman played all 16 games and was the guy from mini-camp forward. He did have a game or two where he was limited - granted. He also plays on a team that was top 10 in TOP last year.

Let's take Vilma as the example since he's more recent history and easier to speak to. Early in his rookie season, Vilma was limited by Cowart. Cowart was the starter early and Vilma transitioned into the job, I believe because Cowart was injured. So, there was obviously room for improvement this year based on the simple fact that he would have additional opportunity to the tune of a couple games.

Also, throw into that the fact that the Jets offense was LAST in TOP last year. You think that does not help bump his numbers? The prior year they were # 4 in TOP! In 2004 the Jets were a prolific rushing team. COME ON. Simply said, the fact the Vilma was on the field so much more from his rookie year to his sophmore year explains a big piece of the jump.

Yes, players improve and getter better, but that does not mean producing substantially more tackles. In the real life NFL, that means, tackling a guy at the LOS vs. a 3 yard gain. That means knowing your responsibilities and assignments better. Vilma is instinctive as hell. He'll tackle anything - rookie year or sophmore year. A defensive player getting better with experience does not mean more fantasy production necessarily, but where and how the tackle is made. Not that it's simply made. Granted, experience will contribute some improvement to his numbers, but other factors weigh more heavily - like in Vilma's example.

I like Thurman. He is an LB1, but I am not expecting him to make the kind of jump made by Vilma between years, if the Bengals offense remains consistently productive or unless there's a change in the scheme (i.e. 3-4 would help).

 

[John Norton]

Yes, players improve and getter better, but that does not mean producing substantially more tackles.  In the real life NFL, that means, tackling a guy at the LOS vs. a 3 yard gain.  That means knowing your responsibilities and assignments better.  Vilma is instinctive as hell.  He'll tackle anything - rookie year or sophmore year.  A defensive player getting better with experience does not mean more fantasy production necessarily, but where and how the tackle is made.  Not that it's simply made.  Granted, experience will contribute some improvement to his numbers, but other factors weigh more heavily - like in Vilma's example.

I don't necessarily agree. Maybe it just depends on what you consider "substantial". When a player becomes more comfortable in the scheme or situation he makes decisions better/quicker thus plays faster and more flueltly. I agree that it will help him to get to a lot of plays quicker (as in your example) but it also allows him to get to plays that he may not have before and/or beat other team mates to more plays. I'll use Mike Peterson as an example. He was an experienced quality veteran when he jumped from his traditional WLB position in Indy to MLB in Jacksonville, so he should have had no problem right? He wasn't comfortable for a while as he was learning the position and it showed in his numbers. In his last season with Indy ('02) Peterson went 103-33-0. Then the move to Jacksonville and after the switch to an unfamiliar position in '03, 73-29-1. Second year after learning the new scheme and hitting a comfort zone 93-33-5 followed by last year at 95-37-6.

I do agree that Thurman's upside may be somewhat dampened by the situation. He certainly shouldn't have the same number of opportunities that Vilma did. But it would be no surprise at all to see his tackle totals jump from 68 solos into the mid or upper 80's, and to see him make more big plays.

 

[inbreeder]

I am not trying to be argumentative. But my point is simple why Thurman may not see as big a jump. Thurman played all 16 games and was the guy from mini-camp forward. He did have a game or two where he was limited - granted. He also plays on a team that was top 10 in TOP last year.

Let's take Vilma as the example since he's more recent history and easier to speak to. Early in his rookie season, Vilma was limited by Cowart. Cowart was the starter early and Vilma transitioned into the job, I believe because Cowart was injured. So, there was obviously room for improvement this year based on the simple fact that he would have additional opportunity to the tune of a couple games.

Also, throw into that the fact that the Jets offense was LAST in TOP last year. You think that does not help bump his numbers? The prior year they were # 4 in TOP! In 2004 the Jets were a prolific rushing team. COME ON. Simply said, the fact the Vilma was on the field so much more from his rookie year to his sophmore year explains a big piece of the jump.

Yes, players improve and getter better, but that does not mean producing substantially more tackles. In the real life NFL, that means, tackling a guy at the LOS vs. a 3 yard gain. That means knowing your responsibilities and assignments better. Vilma is instinctive as hell. He'll tackle anything - rookie year or sophmore year. A defensive player getting better with experience does not mean more fantasy production necessarily, but where and how the tackle is made. Not that it's simply made. Granted, experience will contribute some improvement to his numbers, but other factors weigh more heavily - like in Vilma's example.

I like Thurman. He is an LB1, but I am not expecting him to make the kind of jump made by Vilma between years, if the Bengals offense remains consistently productive or unless there's a change in the scheme (i.e. 3-4 would help).

Good discussion here. I agree with many of your points.I noted that I don't think Thurman to be Lewis or Vilma, and I certainly wouldn't count on a 50 tackle increase for him, in part due to the points you've made. But there are plenty of LBs who play for excellent run defenses and ball control offenses that get 90 or more solo tackles a season - i.e. Donnie Edwards, Keith Bulluck, Mike Peterson.

An extra 20 tackles would be a near 30% increase in production for Thurman, but not too much more than another solo a game. I don't think you can explain a 47 tackle (3/game) increase for Vilma on opportunity and TOP alone. His production was actually more consistent across games 1-16 his rookie season than you'd have thought. I remember being surprised by that last offseason.

I think it's entirely feasible that Thurman improves to 90 solos this season. If he doesn't, he'll have to continue to put up a well above average number of big plays to approach LB1 status.

It's also entirely possible that I'm blind to the truth as a long suffering Bengal fan and Thurman owner/apologist.

 

[John Norton]

I was grilled this time last year for pimping Vilma as likely to see a huge bump in his tackle numbers. I don't think it's far out of line at all to suggest the same for Thurman. Even if the defense sees less snaps because of the improvement in run defense Adams may bring, I think Thurman will be the primary beneficiary.

I should go find the thread where guys were lighting me up for ranking Vilma #4 when the projections and cheats first came out last year

 

[TME]

I do not disagree with you guys that his production will improve. Say solos in the 85 range...yeah, I agree. My point was simply, do not look for that 50% (or whatever) increase in tackle production that you saw with Lewis and Vilma, because of the factors that contributed to their fantasy success vs. what we see with Thurman.

Agree, Thurman is good, and Thurman will improve and Thurman will be a LB1 possibly even pushing his numbers toward that tier just outisde of Vilma, Edwards, etc.

 

[inbreeder]

The next meeting of Odell Lovers Anonymous will be next Friday, April 7th. Same time, same place.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

did Marvin Lewis run a 3-4 in Baltimore?

 

[John Norton]

did Marvin Lewis run a 3-4 in Baltimore?

I believe so. They also used a variation of a 3-4 at times while he was in Washington, though it wasn't talked about much.

 

[redman]

One word: hybrid.

It's the new fad. Belichick popularized it in NE with great results, so now everyone's doing it. Dallas started last year. Washington and Seattle appear poised to do it this year.

And I agree with whoever said that Arrington would look good in this scheme. Adams' signing could be a precursor to Arrington's signing.

 

[Weiner Dog]

The 3-4 has been mentioned several times since the end of the season. Even if they don't go so far as to make it the base defense, its a given that they will use it some.

I really like the look of

SOLB: Pollack

ILB: Thurman

ILB: Simmons

WOLB: Arrington

Especially behind Sam Adams.

The only problem I see is that Justin Smith doesn't seem a good fit as a 3-4 end to me. At 275 he's a little undersized for that role and he's not particularly strong at the point of attack. Maybe he could join Andre Carter in Washington in '07

Whoa, Nelly...hold on. Justin Smith is one of the best run-stuffing DE's in the game. In fact, his skill-set has completely flip-flopped since being drafted #4 overall in '01. Smith was a 4.5-4.6 speed rusher coming into the draft. Since being drafted, Smith has added size/strength but unfortunately lost some speed in the process. No DL drafted since '01 has more tackles than Smith. In fact, it's not even close. He has averaged 60+ stuffs a season since his rookie season.I'm not saying Smith is a prototype 3-4 end...he's not. However, the guy can more than handle the position. Plus, he's no longer a 275lb guy. This was his draft weight as a 22 year-old. If you see him play, he can see he's easily tipping the scales at 290.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Bengals.com article post Adams official signing...

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=5177

Nothing really new here. But there are some interesting speculations from some of the players about the positions they'd play if the 3-4 was the base front. Justin Smith suggesting a shift to LB at 270 lb rather than end. Bryan Robinson saying he'd fit as a DE in the scheme. And multiple statements (none from a player or coach) saying that since Adams played in a 4-3 front for Lewis and Bresnahan in the past, they'll likely stay in that front this season.

All speculation - even the players say they don't know the plan for 06 yet - but a good read.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I think Adams' performance last year is an indication that he's not really a great fit as a 3-4 NT. The Bills run defense was decimated when they lost Pat Williams, and Sam Adams seemed unable or unwilling to stop the bleeding. He's still got a great first step and I think he'll be a nice addition...but has he ever even played NT in a 3-4? I can't remember him doing so.

 

[cracKer]

did Marvin Lewis run a 3-4 in Baltimore?

The Glory Days had Adams lining up next to Siragusa. While thay do have some players who would certainly fit the bill for a switch (Pollack and Robinson being the two primary, not sure how much experience Smith has as an OLB), I don't think the signing of Adams foreshadaws a change.

 

[massraider]

I think Adams' performance last year is an indication that he's not really a great fit as a 3-4 NT. The Bills run defense was decimated when they lost Pat Williams, and Sam Adams seemed unable or unwilling to stop the bleeding. He's still got a great first step and I think he'll be a nice addition...but has he ever even played NT in a 3-4? I can't remember him doing so.

Me either. And it seems a bit late in the game to project a guy to a different position.

 

[SoFresh&SoClean]

Smith and Thornton would play DE's if they use the 3-4. While they may filter out Adams and bring in, SSmith or Robinson on passing downs. Even still, Simmons is not a big enough OLB for a 3-4. Unless they draft a Bobby Carpenter or someone like that, I don't see their main defense being 3-4. They'll still use it, but not every down. They just don't have the personnel to make a permanent switch.

 

[John Norton]

The 3-4 has been mentioned several times since the end of the season. Even if they don't go so far as to make it the base defense, its a given that they will use it some.

I really like the look of

SOLB: Pollack

ILB: Thurman

ILB: Simmons

WOLB: Arrington

Especially behind Sam Adams.

The only problem I see is that Justin Smith doesn't seem a good fit as a 3-4 end to me. At 275 he's a little undersized for that role and he's not particularly strong at the point of attack. Maybe he could join Andre Carter in Washington in '07 

Whoa, Nelly...hold on. Justin Smith is one of the best run-stuffing DE's in the game. In fact, his skill-set has completely flip-flopped since being drafted #4 overall in '01. Smith was a 4.5-4.6 speed rusher coming into the draft. Since being drafted, Smith has added size/strength but unfortunately lost some speed in the process. No DL drafted since '01 has more tackles than Smith. In fact, it's not even close. He has averaged 60+ stuffs a season since his rookie season.I'm not saying Smith is a prototype 3-4 end...he's not. However, the guy can more than handle the position. Plus, he's no longer a 275lb guy. This was his draft weight as a 22 year-old. If you see him play, he can see he's easily tipping the scales at 290.

Smith had a program weight of 275 LAST SEASON and had a career high of 47 solo tackles back in '02.He does a good job of getting off tackles and chasing plays down but when teams run right at him he's a little vulnerable. He'll make the play but will give up ground in doing so.

I'm a Justin Smith fan. Have the guy in a couple of leagues and get a first hand look at every Bengals home game. He just doesn't strike me as a guy who would be successful at end in a 3-4.

At any rate, the Bengals aren't likely to go that rout in the immediate future anyway. All I am saying is that they will have the 3-4 in their bag of tricks. I expect we will see it a few times this season but certainly not as their base defense.

 

[Rozelle]

The 3-4 has been mentioned several times since the end of the season. Even if they don't go so far as to make it the base defense, its a given that they will use it some.

I really like the look of

SOLB: Pollack

ILB: Thurman

ILB: Simmons

WOLB: Arrington

Especially behind Sam Adams.

The only problem I see is that Justin Smith doesn't seem a good fit as a 3-4 end to me. At 275 he's a little undersized for that role and he's not particularly strong at the point of attack. Maybe he could join Andre Carter in Washington in '07 

Whoa, Nelly...hold on. Justin Smith is one of the best run-stuffing DE's in the game. In fact, his skill-set has completely flip-flopped since being drafted #4 overall in '01. Smith was a 4.5-4.6 speed rusher coming into the draft. Since being drafted, Smith has added size/strength but unfortunately lost some speed in the process. No DL drafted since '01 has more tackles than Smith. In fact, it's not even close. He has averaged 60+ stuffs a season since his rookie season.I'm not saying Smith is a prototype 3-4 end...he's not. However, the guy can more than handle the position. Plus, he's no longer a 275lb guy. This was his draft weight as a 22 year-old. If you see him play, he can see he's easily tipping the scales at 290.

Smith had a program weight of 275 LAST SEASON and had a career high of 47 solo tackles back in '02.He does a good job of getting off tackles and chasing plays down but when teams run right at him he's a little vulnerable. He'll make the play but will give up ground in doing so.

I'm a Justin Smith fan. Have the guy in a couple of leagues and get a first hand look at every Bengals home game. He just doesn't strike me as a guy who would be successful at end in a 3-4.

At any rate, the Bengals aren't likely to go that rout in the immediate future anyway. All I am saying is that they will have the 3-4 in their bag of tricks. I expect we will see it a few times this season but certainly not as their base defense.

Whats your take on Robert Geathers?

 

[John Norton]

Whats your take on Robert Geathers?

I like the kid in general. He showed flashes in limited playing time as a rookie but was a little dissappointing as the starter last year. Everyone (myself included) expected more than 25 tackles and 3 sacks from him. Unless they draft an end early (which is possible) Geathers will get another chance to prove himself. I think the year of starting experience will help a lot.I don't know if he will ever make a big fantasy splash but the situation is worth watching for sure.

 

[Rustoleum]

If by chance the Bengals do sign Arrington, I would expect them to cut Simmons, especially in light of already signing Sam Adams and Dexter Jackson.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Whats your take on Robert Geathers?

He needs to show me something in preseason. I was very excited at the end of 2004. He'd shown an ability to get to the QB as a situational pass rusher when Duane Clemons moved inside to tackle on third downs. Unfortunately, he showed little of the same explosiveness rushing the passer and was a big disappointment in run support. He was frequently moved out of contain and often missed tackles even when in position.

With Justin Smith's contract up after this season and Geathers' suspect play, I expect the Bengals to take at least one DE in this draft. The coaching staff still has good things to say about him, so I'd keep him on the radar. But he's little more than a bye week fill in/replacement level player in my mind.

 

[John Norton]

If by chance the Bengals do sign Arrington, I would expect them to cut Simmons, especially in light of already signing Sam Adams and Dexter Jackson.

I don't see them coming off the big $ that Arrington wants. Either way they aren't going to cut Simmons no matter who they sign.

 

[John Norton]

Whats your take on Robert Geathers?

He needs to show me something in preseason. I was very excited at the end of 2004. He'd shown an ability to get to the QB as a situational pass rusher when Duane Clemons moved inside to tackle on third downs. Unfortunately, he showed little of the same explosiveness rushing the passer and was a big disappointment in run support. He was frequently moved out of contain and often missed tackles even when in position.

With Justin Smith's contract up after this season and Geathers' suspect play, I expect the Bengals to take at least one DE in this draft. The coaching staff still has good things to say about him, so I'd keep him on the radar. But he's little more than a bye week fill in/replacement level player in my mind.

Agree on all points.

 

[redman]

I have Geathers and have hoped that he'll pan out. I too was disappointed in him last year.

I also have Madieu - any word on how his rehab's going?

 

[Jene Bramel]

I have Geathers and have hoped that he'll pan out. I too was disappointed in him last year.

I also have Madieu - any word on how his rehab's going?

I've heard nothing about Madieu's rehab. Usually, no news is good news.I'm still debating his 2006 value though. He's an excellent player, but since exploding onto the IDP scene in 2004, the Bengals have added Odell Thurman, Deltha O'Neal, and now Dexter Jackson and Sam Adams. Much better players who will put themselves in much better position to make plays.

I think the coaching staff may be a little leery of bringing him up in run support as often as in 2004. Although he was more than capable, he was there out of necessity more often than not. Now, after a serious shoulder injury, improved LB play, Jackson in the fold, and the Bengals' need for a decent cover safety, I wonder if his run support role drops significantly.

On the other hand, the guy makes plays and Marvin Lewis loves to put guys like Madieu in the best position to make them.

I think he's still valuable in 2006, but I don't know that he'll approach true stud status.

John, you got a different feel on this one?

 

[Slinger]

Does anyone think that Landon Johnson will put up okay (bye week filler) type of numbers in the 3-4 if the Bengals don't sign Arrington?

 

[Jene Bramel]

Does anyone think that Landon Johnson will put up okay (bye week filler) type of numbers in the 3-4 if the Bengals don't sign Arrington?

The Bengals are not moving to a 3-4 alignment. They may move toward some form of a Lewis/Bresnahan variant of the hybrid 4-3/3-4 front that has become the rage in the NFL over the past 3 seasons. What thay may be remains to be seen. I'll continue to maintain that the base front will be a 4-3 until I see free agent/draft acquisitions that bring linemen capable of anchoring the ends of a 3-4 front.With regard to Landon Johnson, no, I don't see any fantasy value for him unless an injury occurs to Simmons or Thurman. Thurman will be the man at inside backer in either front. Pollack will gain whatever value is to be gained by outside backers in any 3-4 fronts.

 

[John Norton]

Does anyone think that Landon Johnson will put up okay (bye week filler) type of numbers in the 3-4 if the Bengals don't sign Arrington?

It doesn't look like they are going to land Arrington but if they do, don't be surprised if they try Polack in a rush end role IE Robert Mathis. He may just be the next Dwight Freeney As inbreeder mentioned, Johnson doesn't have much fantasy value unless either Simmons or Thurman go down. If he replaces either of those guys he would be a good in season pickup to plug a hole.

 

[John Norton]

I have Geathers and have hoped that he'll pan out.  I too was disappointed in him last year. 

I also have Madieu - any word on how his rehab's going?

I've heard nothing about Madieu's rehab. Usually, no news is good news.I'm still debating his 2006 value though. He's an excellent player, but since exploding onto the IDP scene in 2004, the Bengals have added Odell Thurman, Deltha O'Neal, and now Dexter Jackson and Sam Adams. Much better players who will put themselves in much better position to make plays.

I think the coaching staff may be a little leery of bringing him up in run support as often as in 2004. Although he was more than capable, he was there out of necessity more often than not. Now, after a serious shoulder injury, improved LB play, Jackson in the fold, and the Bengals' need for a decent cover safety, I wonder if his run support role drops significantly.

On the other hand, the guy makes plays and Marvin Lewis loves to put guys like Madieu in the best position to make them.

I think he's still valuable in 2006, but I don't know that he'll approach true stud status.

John, you got a different feel on this one?

I haven't heard anything about the rehab either but he went down real early so he's had plenty of time to heal I would think. I doubt that will be an issue. Williams played a lot of SS in '04 when he had the monster year. To be honest I was a little nervous last year when they moved him to FS. He played only 3 full games but averaged 5-1-0 with 3 passed defensed and a pick. Bengals safeties totaled 142-54-3 with 4 picks, 13 PD and 3 FF. Most of which came without Williams or their other projected starter Kim Herring in the lineup. While I agree that improvement in the front 7 will have an impact, I still think we can expect 70+ solo tackles and we will likely see his big play numbers increase over '04 (2 sacks, 3 picks, 2 FR). I don't know that he will be a "stud" but I'll be surprised if he doesn't make the top 15. He's just that dynamic of a player, and like you said, Lewis puts his playmakers in position to make plays.

 

[Jene Bramel]

I haven't heard anything about the rehab either but he went down real early so he's had plenty of time to heal I would think. I doubt that will be an issue.

Williams played a lot of SS in '04 when he had the monster year. To be honest I was a little nervous last year when they moved him to FS. He played only 3 full games but averaged 5-1-0 with 3 passed defensed and a pick. Bengals safeties totaled 142-54-3 with 4 picks, 13 PD and 3 FF. Most of which came without Williams or their other projected starter Kim Herring in the lineup. While I agree that improvement in the front 7 will have an impact, I still think we can expect 70+ solo tackles and we will likely see his big play numbers increase over '04 (2 sacks, 3 picks, 2 FR). I don't know that he will be a "stud" but I'll be surprised if he doesn't make the top 15. He's just that dynamic of a player, and like you said, Lewis puts his playmakers in position to make plays.

Bengals' safeties were in on 196 total tackles last year? How come I didn't notice any of 'em? Guess I can't get past the burned-into-my-brain-image of Ohalete being used like a stadium turnstile on every play.

 

[Weiner Dog]

Bengals | NFL Draft will determine team's defense

Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:40:39 -0700

Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis confirmed he's waiting for this weekend's NFL Draft to unfold before deciding to stay with the 4-3 base defense or changing to a 3-4. "We'll wait and see what happens after the draft," Lewis said, but what can be plainly seen is that he's still trying to match the best scheme with the talent he has brought in during his first three drafts.

 

[TME]

Bengals | NFL Draft will determine team's defense

Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:40:39 -0700

Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis confirmed he's waiting for this weekend's NFL Draft to unfold before deciding to stay with the 4-3 base defense or changing to a 3-4. "We'll wait and see what happens after the draft," Lewis said, but what can be plainly seen is that he's still trying to match the best scheme with the talent he has brought in during his first three drafts.

Off the top of my head that was two LB's last year, one each in round 1 and 2, and two LB's the prior year with two in round 3...hmmm

 

[Jene Bramel]

Bengals | NFL Draft will determine team's defense

Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:40:39 -0700

Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis confirmed he's waiting for this weekend's NFL Draft to unfold before deciding to stay with the 4-3 base defense or changing to a 3-4. "We'll wait and see what happens after the draft," Lewis said, but what can be plainly seen is that he's still trying to match the best scheme with the talent he has brought in during his first three drafts.

Off the top of my head that was two LB's last year, one each in round 1 and 2, and two LB's the prior year with two in round 3...hmmm

You're correct. And there was Nate Webster as well. More a function of a need to find speedier, Marvin-style players who could tackle than anything else.I'm starting to come around to WD's (and others) opinion that Marvin really wants to transition to the 3-4. But I don't think they'll force the draft or force the personnel like the Raiders did in 2004. The line needs at least one more 3-4 end and some depth at NT. Fanene and Robinson at end alone won't cut it for now and Sam Adams isn't a 3-4 NT. Shaun Smith may be. Thornton, Geathers, and Smith are all less than ideal 3-4 players. Landon Johnson and Caleb Miller are not ideal 3-4 ILB.

If the Bengals draft a 3-4 rush LB and then get a big end and/or NT later on then the transition is on. If their draft board has Kiwanuka as high as was suggested on local talk radio today, then I'd say Marvin is happy with Pollack progression as a SLB and the 4-3 will stay for awhile longer.

I'm very interested to see the outcome.

 

[SoFresh&SoClean]

Bengals | NFL Draft will determine team's defense

Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:40:39 -0700

Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis confirmed he's waiting for this weekend's NFL Draft to unfold before deciding to stay with the 4-3 base defense or changing to a 3-4. "We'll wait and see what happens after the draft," Lewis said, but what can be plainly seen is that he's still trying to match the best scheme with the talent he has brought in during his first three drafts.

Off the top of my head that was two LB's last year, one each in round 1 and 2, and two LB's the prior year with two in round 3...hmmm

I'm still very uncertain what Marvin is thinking. He has always run a 4-3 IIRC, and Sam Adams isn't really a pure NT for a 3-4. Pollack would be ideal for the 3-4, but the rest of the pieces don't seem fitting. I guess we'll have to wait for the weekend to know for sure.

 

[redman]

Bengals | NFL Draft will determine team's defense

Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:40:39 -0700

Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis confirmed he's waiting for this weekend's NFL Draft to unfold before deciding to stay with the 4-3 base defense or changing to a 3-4. "We'll wait and see what happens after the draft," Lewis said, but what can be plainly seen is that he's still trying to match the best scheme with the talent he has brought in during his first three drafts.

Off the top of my head that was two LB's last year, one each in round 1 and 2, and two LB's the prior year with two in round 3...hmmm

I'm still very uncertain what Marvin is thinking. He has always run a 4-3 IIRC, and Sam Adams isn't really a pure NT for a 3-4. Pollack would be ideal for the 3-4, but the rest of the pieces don't seem fitting. I guess we'll have to wait for the weekend to know for sure.

Didn't he really run more of a hybrid in Baltimore? I seem to recall him using Peter Boulware extensively as a pass rusher; he certainly did a lot of that with Lavar Arrington in 2002 when he was the DC for the 'Skins.

 

[pretender]

The latest news

Bengals | Smith strong enough to play DE

Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:22:10 -0700

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis thinks DL Justin Smith is strong enough to play defensive end in a 3-4 system, despite being just 270 pounds.

 

[Jene Bramel]

The latest news

Bengals | Smith strong enough to play DE

Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:22:10 -0700

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis thinks DL Justin Smith is strong enough to play defensive end in a 3-4 system, despite being just 270 pounds.

Here's the actual quote...

On Tuesday, Lewis noted that tackle Bryan Robinson, a 295-pounder, could make the move to end if asked, and John Thornton, another 295-pounder, is clearly athletic enough to make that move to a 3-4 end that usually has to be in the 290-pound or so territory to hold up against the run. Second-year man Jonathan Fanene is also a fit as a 3-4 end, and some believe that even though Justin Smith is just 270 pounds, he’s strong enough to make the transition.

I'm no personnel man folks, but if I own Odell Thurman and Justin Smith and the Bengals move to the 3-4 this season I'm way unhappy. You can put John Thornton and Justin Smith into rotation as 3-4 ends with Robinson and Fanene and hope that Sam Adams and Shaun Smith can handle the NT job. But there's no way in hell that any combination of those three men regularly defeat five offensive linemen and a TE. Sure athleticism is helpful but base strength and leverage is what a 3-4 end must have to earn his keep - Thornton and Justin Smith are poor fits. Thurman will see OL all over him. Justin Smith may see his tackle numbers plummet as well as his sack numbers. At LB, you've just spent three picks in the past two seasons on quick, athletic 230lb guys who aren't skilled at taking on blockers. You'll have to rely on your defense to win games if Palmer can't go the first month so you change schemes for the third time in four years and this time in early May?

I realize I'm setting myself up to eat a whole bunch of posts here because it sure sounds like Marvin has his mind made up. There's little mention of a "hybrid" front in any of the team's notes and Lewis and Bresnahan are not from the Belichick school of 3-4 fronts. I'm not seeing it yet.



This draft is going to be very interesting as an IDP lover and a Bengal fan. Very interesting.

 

[redman]

The latest news

Bengals | Smith strong enough to play DE

Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:22:10 -0700

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports Cincinnati Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis thinks DL Justin Smith is strong enough to play defensive end in a 3-4 system, despite being just 270 pounds.

Here's the actual quote...

On Tuesday, Lewis noted that tackle Bryan Robinson, a 295-pounder, could make the move to end if asked, and John Thornton, another 295-pounder, is clearly athletic enough to make that move to a 3-4 end that usually has to be in the 290-pound or so territory to hold up against the run. Second-year man Jonathan Fanene is also a fit as a 3-4 end, and some believe that even though Justin Smith is just 270 pounds, he’s strong enough to make the transition.

I'm no personnel man folks, but if I own Odell Thurman and Justin Smith and the Bengals move to the 3-4 this season I'm way unhappy. You can put John Thornton and Justin Smith into rotation as 3-4 ends with Robinson and Fanene and hope that Sam Adams and Shaun Smith can handle the NT job. But there's no way in hell that any combination of those three men regularly defeat five offensive linemen and a TE. Sure athleticism is helpful but base strength and leverage is what a 3-4 end must have to earn his keep - Thornton and Justin Smith are poor fits. Thurman will see OL all over him. Justin Smith may see his tackle numbers plummet as well as his sack numbers. At LB, you've just spent three picks in the past two seasons on quick, athletic 230lb guys who aren't skilled at taking on blockers. You'll have to rely on your defense to win games if Palmer can't go the first month so you change schemes for the third time in four years and this time in early May?

I realize I'm setting myself up to eat a whole bunch of posts here because it sure sounds like Marvin has his mind made up. There's little mention of a "hybrid" front in any of the team's notes and Lewis and Bresnahan are not from the Belichick school of 3-4 fronts. I'm not seeing it yet.



This draft is going to be very interesting as an IDP lover and a Bengal fan. Very interesting.

The guys to have in the front seven of a 4-3/3-4 hybrid scheme are the weakside pass rusher and the ILB primarily responsible for stopping the run. I think Odell Thurman is the latter LB; who would be the former?

 

[Jene Bramel]

The guys to have in the front seven of a 4-3/3-4 hybrid scheme are the weakside pass rusher and the ILB primarily responsible for stopping the run. I think Odell Thurman is the latter LB; who would be the former?

I suppose it would be Pollack for now. I catch rumors and whispers that Manny Lawson may slide to 24, although I'm not sure I'm drinking that kool-aid yet. He's not real happy about being called a tweener and hasn't been too cooperative with requests to work out as a stand up rush LB, but he'd be awfully intriguing for Marvin.24 hours to go...

 

[redman]

The guys to have in the front seven of a 4-3/3-4 hybrid scheme are the weakside pass rusher and the ILB primarily responsible for stopping the run.  I think Odell Thurman is the latter LB; who would be the former?

I suppose it would be Pollack for now. I catch rumors and whispers that Manny Lawson may slide to 24, although I'm not sure I'm drinking that kool-aid yet. He's not real happy about being called a tweener and hasn't been too cooperative with requests to work out as a stand up rush LB, but he'd be awfully intriguing for Marvin.24 hours to go...

Well, as a guy who's invested two years waiting for Robert Geathers to develop, I have to say that I'm bummed by this development. I still have Madieu though.