Macdaddy_2004
Footballguy
Noticed this morning in Yahoo that the defensive touchdown for the bengals was taken away - legit or will it be reversed again?
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Bengals defensive touchdown taken away? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Macdaddy_2004
- Start date
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
They scored one on a fumble return so I can't imagine it won't count at Yahoo, ESPN, MFL, or any other league host provider.
Steeler
Footballguy
The Bengals recovered the GB fumble, then the Bengals fumbled it themselves, then it was recovered again and returned for the TD. Now, it should be a defensive TD, but I'm wondering if the 2nd fumble is causing the issue at the moment. Something crazy like since they recovered their own fumble it's not a defensive TD. That's BS, but I'm just throwing out some wild speculation.
TheLurkerBelow
Footballguy
I saw that play, it should stand as a defensive score. As Steeler points out above, the defense recovered, then fumbled and then recovered and advanced it. But it was a defensive TD regardless of the multiple fumble recoveries, one of which was their own recovery.
Carl Eller's Dead Liver
Footballguy
Get with the 2000's and play with IDP's.......this will eliminate this bogus problem.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
steveski
Footballguy
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
IDP is lame. It's for people with too much time on their hands.
Answering the question, it doesn't affect me.
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wudaben
Footballguy
Regardless of how Yahoo and/or the NFL ultimately scores this play, in fantasy football if your defense/special teams unit was on the field and recovered the fumble and ultimately scored then the D/ST should get credit for the fumble and TD. Unless the offense and defense rotated in mid play the spirit of most league's rules would expect this to be a defensive score.
you have to go off the offficial NFL rules for everything... not just whatever you think is right.... there are plenty of NFL rules that are dumb... this is one of them apparently.... so if that yahoo article is correct, then no TD should be awarded to bengals D
Mario Kart
Footballguy
This, actually, couldn't be more wrong. The Bengals defense should not get credit for it. They should be credited with a fumble and that is it from that play. Didn't think about it till I saw this thread but a TD should not be counted.
spodog
Footballguy
Ah, the old Defensive Unit magically turns into Offensive unit and then back again trick. Yahoo's explanation is not based on much other than the way they happen to score it. Their statement:
"Once possession changes following an interception or fumble, the defensive team is considered to be on offense for the purposes of NFL statistical record-keeping"
has no basis in any kind of NFL record keeping or Elias Sports Bureau (official NFL statistician) procedures. This has been hashed over on these boards previously, and the league's and league management services that hold on to the magic dragon theory (defensive's magically become offenses) always lose these arguments.
"Once possession changes following an interception or fumble, the defensive team is considered to be on offense for the purposes of NFL statistical record-keeping"
has no basis in any kind of NFL record keeping or Elias Sports Bureau (official NFL statistician) procedures. This has been hashed over on these boards previously, and the league's and league management services that hold on to the magic dragon theory (defensive's magically become offenses) always lose these arguments.
spodog
Footballguy
TheCommish
Footballguy
Yet another example of why IDP leagues are the way to go. Team defense sucks.
socrates
Footballguy
Many years ago, this is how we decided to score such a play. The Defensive Unit scored the TD.
Yahoo's explanation: "Once possession changes following an interception or fumble, the defensive team is considered to be on offense for the purposes of NFL statistical record-keeping."
If you follow that logic, how is any Defensive return credited to the Defense?
B-Deep
Footballguy
from MFL help
Defensive Fumble Recovery TD Following A Turnover.
This lead me to believe for Team DEF it is scored as a TD as well, and so far it has been
Defensive Fumble Recovery TD Following A Turnover.
- Scenario: Team A has the ball and passes or rushes with it.In a pass scenario, Team A throws an interception to Player B1 on Team B. Player B1 subsequently fumbles the ball. The recovery is made by Player B2 on Team B who runs it in for a TD.
- In a rush scenario, Player A1 on Team A fumbles the ball to Player B1 on Team B. Player B1 subsequently fumbles the ball and the resulting recovery is made by a Player B2 on Team B who runs it in for a TD.
This lead me to believe for Team DEF it is scored as a TD as well, and so far it has been
B-Deep
Footballguy
good point
other than recovering a fumble in the end zone, on all other plays they'd turn into the offense prior to the score
wudaben
Footballguy
Same here. The official NFL rules have never been the same as most fantasy league rules regarding D/ST scoring. Maybe some people play in leagues where the letter of the NFL rules is law but I suspect that most leagues decided to use common sense somewhere in the past decade and wrote an addendum to their league's consititution for plays such as this. It's real simple... if the other team had scored would the play have counted against your defense or an individual player? If it would have counted against the defence then the turnover and subsequent TD should be awarded to the defense.
This is just like that play from week 1 or 2 where in someone's league where the punt returner (Welker maybe?) fumbled but it was scored against the offensive player... Common sense has to prevail somewhere.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Looks like Yahoo and MFL, among others, allow league commisioners to fix this if need be. Hope any commishes that got close wins due to Yahoo's decision do the right thing by their league**.
** in the 99.999999% of all leagues that have no specific rules for these kinds of plays
** in the 99.999999% of all leagues that have no specific rules for these kinds of plays
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Yahoo is stupid.
B-Deep
Footballguy
i would think this would be correctSo at Yahoo, if the bengals fumbked a second time before scoring the TD and rodgers scooped it and scored, GB defense would get points?
Winning IS Everything
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
oh ####, I did play v CIN DEF in one league.. I dont check that one much, only a 20$ work league.
YAHOO! explanation makes sense... somewhat.
GregR
Footballguy
MFL lets you set things up however you want. Yahoo is correct that the TD was an "offensive fumble recovery TD". I think that is pretty much indisputable. It's also fairly irrelevant to whether fantasy leagues want a team D to get credit when a player who was on defense at the snap recovers for a TD a fumble by a teammate.
MFL will let you set things up to get points for offensive fumble recovery TD. Or it will let you set it up so any TD scored by the players who started the snap on defense is scored. If you're using Team D, best to use the latter I'd imagine since it rolls everything together regardless of the exact scoring category for the TD. Otherwise you have to make sure you include all the different options, same as you have to for individual players.
This stuff really should be basic functionality for a fantasy football hosting site by now.
GregR
Footballguy
I didn't say how fantasy leagues want to score it is irrelevant. I said Yahoo clinging to the exactly correct scoring category as the only means of scoring is irrelevant when the bulk of their customers want to do it differently.
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matttyl
Footballguy
What they are saying is that if possession changes AFTER an interception or fumble, which is the case here. Had Cincinnati scored a TD without fumbling it the first time, it is a defensive score. Since they fumbled it, GB regained possession, and then fumbled it again, it wasn't.
Take this one step further:
Lets say that somehow, someway, the ball was fumbled 22 times on that play, and each and every player both recovered a fumble, and them fumbled it away again. Would you want each IDP player to get a "fumble recovery"?
dagwood
Footballguy
cheese
Footballguy
GregR
Footballguy
An offensive fumble recovery is recovering a fumble that does not change possession. Your teammate fumbled it.
A defensive fumble recover is recovering a fumble which changes possession. The opponent fumbled it.
Those uses of "offense" and "defense" aren't the same meaning as the fantasy roster positions.
A fantasy Team Defense (non ST) is the unit who did not put the ball into play with a snap or kick. Just like a fantasy RB stays a fantasy RB whether he lines up at QB or WR in the course of a play, the Team Defense/ST stays their position for the play. While every fantasy league does not have to do it that way, that's what 99% of us mean by the term.
A Team Defense can get a defensive fumble recovery from an opponent. And they can get an offensive fumble recovery if they got possession, fumbled it, and recover it themselves. Because their fantasy roster position is Team Defense, it isn't their NFL statistical designation.
That is where Yahoo is going wrong. They are mixing the terms because they are the same words, but represent different things. They are correct it is an offensive fumble recovery. They are wrong when they say it wasn't the fantasy roster position Team Defense who got the offensive fumble recovery.
A defensive fumble recover is recovering a fumble which changes possession. The opponent fumbled it.
Those uses of "offense" and "defense" aren't the same meaning as the fantasy roster positions.
A fantasy Team Defense (non ST) is the unit who did not put the ball into play with a snap or kick. Just like a fantasy RB stays a fantasy RB whether he lines up at QB or WR in the course of a play, the Team Defense/ST stays their position for the play. While every fantasy league does not have to do it that way, that's what 99% of us mean by the term.
A Team Defense can get a defensive fumble recovery from an opponent. And they can get an offensive fumble recovery if they got possession, fumbled it, and recover it themselves. Because their fantasy roster position is Team Defense, it isn't their NFL statistical designation.
That is where Yahoo is going wrong. They are mixing the terms because they are the same words, but represent different things. They are correct it is an offensive fumble recovery. They are wrong when they say it wasn't the fantasy roster position Team Defense who got the offensive fumble recovery.
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JaxBill
Footballguy
TheLurkerBelow
Footballguy
This would definitely be the case. In your scenario once the Bengals have taken possession of the ball then the Green Bay players on the field are on defense. Aaron Rogers would score a Green Bay DST fantasy score in this case.So at Yahoo, if the bengals fumbked a second time before scoring the TD and rodgers scooped it and scored, GB defense would get points?
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
so for those of us that had Newman playing, will it stand?
Newman, Terence CIN CBvs Packers Sun 1:00 p.m. ET
CIN 34, GBP 30 12.500 6 Tackles 0.450 9 Interception Return Yards 6.000 58 yd Defensive/Special Teams TD 5.000 1 Interceptions 1.500 1 Passes Defensed 1.000 1 Tackles for a Loss 26.450 Subtotal
DMackDMack
Footballguy
GB never regained possession. Possession never changed after the fumble recovery. Maybe by definition "and purely by definition" it would be the case that the defensive team is now the offensive team had that happened, but it didn't. The only one fumbling the ball here is Yahoo fantasy football.
TheLurkerBelow
Footballguy
Yeah, I get that once you take possession you are technically on offense, but for the purposes of fantasy scoring that's a DST score for the Bengals. Otherwise, as you point out above, every pick six is technically an offensive score, not a score by the fantasy DST and that's not the intention of the fantasy scoring system that most of us use (if we're not playing IDP).
I'd say most of us get this wrong. Trying to play out every scenario of how a TD can be scored in the rules is impossible, so the best answer is to simplify:
The NFL will use ONLY ONE of the following words in EVERY touchdown:
RUN
PASS
RETURN
RECOVERY
Rule 1
If it is a return or recovery in any way shape or fashion, then it goes to the DT and to the individual player(s) who scored it
Rule 2
If it is a run or a pass it goes to the player(s) only
If you like having peace in your league with 0% chance of wars breaking out among owners, then please follow this path...
Example: If there's a fake FG and a pass is thrown for a score, there are no points awarded to the DT/ST. It was a PASS and DT/ST get points only on RETURNS or RECOVERIES.
Not Sleeping
Footballguy
Sometimes you can really overthink these things. The Bengals DEF caused a turnover and scored a TD...it really shouldn't be that complicated.
DMackDMack
Footballguy
If it were the case that the defensive team became the offensive team any time possesion changed via fumble or interception then no DST would ever get points for a pick-6 or a fumble recovered for a touchdown. The way the rule is stated then once the first fumble was recovered by Cinci they should already be considered the offensive team.
TheLurkerBelow
Footballguy
Now my mind is racing with add possibilities. Try this scenario:
My current thinking is if the interception were run back all the way, that's a Team B DST score. But, in my above scenario it's a OFT for the individual player. But my brain is hurting so I'll have to think about it more.
- Team A is on offense and Team B is on defense.
- Team A throws interception and the player on team B runs towards the end zone.
- Before crossing the goal line Team B fumbles the ball into the end zone whereupon another Team B player falls on it.
My current thinking is if the interception were run back all the way, that's a Team B DST score. But, in my above scenario it's a OFT for the individual player. But my brain is hurting so I'll have to think about it more.
TheLurkerBelow
Footballguy
I mostly agree, with one exception. The Offensive Fumble Recovery for Touchdown (OFT). Those are marked as RECOVERY but should not be DST scores, it should go to the individual player who recovered. (Depending on your league rules of course). This just happened last year with Antonio Brown.
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