Bernie Sanders calls for Refunds for delayed flights (1 Viewer)

[jm192]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/bernie-sanders-calls-buttigieg-take-action-flight-delays-cancellations-rcna35959

Maybe something we can all agree on.  Flying is an absolute disaster so far this year.  They constantly overbook flights.  My sister was on standby hoping to get on a flight back from Orlando and they were still allowing people to come up to the gate and purchase tickets.  

 

[djmich]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/bernie-sanders-calls-buttigieg-take-action-flight-delays-cancellations-rcna35959

Maybe something we can all agree on.  Flying is an absolute disaster so far this year.  They constantly overbook flights.  My sister was on standby hoping to get on a flight back from Orlando and they were still allowing people to come up to the gate and purchase tickets.  

Your sisters original flight was cancelled?

Although there may be a legitimate problem, the idea of legislating it as illustrated seems silly to me.

 

[jm192]

Your sisters original flight was cancelled?

Although there may be a legitimate problem, the idea of legislating it as illustrated seems silly to me.

Yeah.  They went to Disney.  They had cancelled flights in each direction.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/bernie-sanders-calls-buttigieg-take-action-flight-delays-cancellations-rcna35959

Maybe something we can all agree on.  Flying is an absolute disaster so far this year.  They constantly overbook flights.  My sister was on standby hoping to get on a flight back from Orlando and they were still allowing people to come up to the gate and purchase tickets.  

What's wrong with letting people still buy tickets. If they don't get on the flight they get a full refund to same method of payment. 

We did this when my flight was canceled out of LaGuardia. We weren't guaranteed to get on, but if we bought the tickets it basically put us in line. We ended up getting on the flight. 

 

[jm192]

What's wrong with letting people still buy tickets. If they don't get on the flight they get a full refund to same method of payment. 

We did this when my flight was canceled out of LaGuardia. We weren't guaranteed to get on, but if we bought the tickets it basically put us in line. We ended up getting on the flight. 

I don't fault you guys for buying tickets.  Glad it worked out.

But if they're already putting people in stand by that usually means they don't have seats for those people.  So selling additional seems like another overbooking/get their money now and deal with it later move by the airlines.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I don't fault you guys for buying tickets.  Glad it worked out.

But if they're already putting people in stand by that usually means they don't have seats for those people.  So selling additional seems like another overbooking/get their money now and deal with it later move by the airlines.

How else would you handle it? If the seats become available then have a lengthy process where all those people have their little butcher number and then they pay? So basically make the entire plane wait instead of having it all ready to go? 

 

[jm192]

How else would you handle it? If the seats become available then have a lengthy process where all those people have their little butcher number and then they pay? So basically make the entire plane wait instead of having it all ready to go? 

I don't know how to handle it.  I don't work in the airline industry.  But one of the biggest problems is the CONSTANT overbooking.  Selling tickets that may not get you on the plane only contributes to that.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

I don't know how to handle it.  I don't work in the airline industry.  But one of the biggest problems is the CONSTANT overbooking.  Selling tickets that may not get you on the plane only contributes to that.  

Selling tickets the day of like that is very different than standard overbooking. 

The tickets bought day of are back of the line and they know it, with the exception being first class seats. 

 

[Cjw_55106]

The biggest issue airlines currently have is a pilot shortage. They are already cutting it thin.  If/when pilots call out, the issue gets bigger very quickly. 

 

[ekbeats]

Go Bernie Go!  If that makes me a Socialist then so be it.  The industry isn’t just mismanaged, it’s become corrupt.  They lie to customers and treat them like ####.  “Flight us cancelled due to weather.”  Bull-####.  We do have smart phones, and in 5 minutes we can see where that plane has been and what the weather there has been like.  And why the hell does it take 20 minutes for the ticket counter idiot to rebook the flight????  The ####### Chinese are flying UFO’s all over the damn country!  Figure it out!!!

 

[jm192]

Go Bernie Go!  If that makes me a Socialist then so be it.  The industry isn’t just mismanaged, it’s become corrupt.  They lie to customers and treat them like ####.  “Flight us cancelled due to weather.”  Bull-####.  We do have smart phones, and in 5 minutes we can see where that plane has been and what the weather there has been like.  And why the hell does it take 20 minutes for the ticket counter idiot to rebook the flight????  The ####### Chinese are flying UFO’s all over the damn country!  Figure it out!!!

I don't think it makes you a socialist.  I've had multiple bad experiences this year.  Multiple people in my family have had issues this year.  Thousands of flights have been cancelled, god knows how many delayed.  

And while I appreciate the staffing shortage, don't sell flights you're likely going to cancel.  

I don't care about the money.  But I'd like to see them held accountable and clean this mess up.  

We're going to drive to South Carolina in the fall instead of flying just to avoid all the headaches.

 

[-fish-]

So my flights are going to cost double because now if a flight is delayed by a couple hours the airline has to refund everyone's money?   No thanks.

I don't know what the fix is, but that isn't it.   

One thing I've learned in planning vacations  is if you have flexibility, plan your trip for the beginning of the month.   Pilots hit their maximum hours toward the end of the month and when there are already pilot shortages it just makes that worse.   

 

[Max Power]

The biggest issue airlines currently have is a pilot shortage. They are already cutting it thin.  If/when pilots call out, the issue gets bigger very quickly. 

What is causing the pilot shortage?

 

[-fish-]

What is causing the pilot shortage?

Mandatory retirement without equal numbers of new pilots entering the industry, for one. 

Alaska Airlines pilots have been negotiating a new contract for three years and pretty pissed off about it (they authorized a strike last month if they can't get a new contract in place), so they keep calling out on the same day.   Since Alaska is a partner airline with several other major carriers, it results in planes not getting to where they're supposed to be, which creates a domino effect.   I assume that this is a large factor because I also read earlier this year that SeaTac had the most cancellations of any airport in the world over the holidays last year.

 

[jm192]

Mandatory retirement without equal numbers of new pilots entering the industry, for one. 

Alaska Airlines pilots have been negotiating a new contract for three years and pretty pissed off about it (they authorized a strike last month if they can't get a new contract in place), so they keep calling out on the same day.   Since Alaska is a partner airline with several other major carriers, it results in planes not getting to where they're supposed to be, which creates a domino effect.   I assume that this is a large factor because I also read earlier this year that SeaTac had the most cancellations of any airport in the world over the holidays last year.

Went to Seattle in May.  Alaska cancelled my return flight.

I re-booked through Delta and they also cancelled my return flight.

Booked a 3rd with United, and luckily that took off without a hitch.

 

[Cjw_55106]

What is causing the pilot shortage?

I believe most of the industry offered early retirement during the Covid shut down.

 

[GordonGekko]

What is causing the pilot shortage?

Training standards uptick

Vaccine mandates/COVID19 layoffs

Barriers to entry for new pilots

Pay scale for a career path

Retirement bottleneck

Obama

 

[Max Power]

I believe most of the industry offered early retirement during the Covid shut down.

I'd support some form of airline voucher for free food and drink in the terminal if there is a delay. 

 

[-fish-]

Went to Seattle in May.  Alaska cancelled my return flight.

I re-booked through Delta and they also cancelled my return flight.

Booked a 3rd with United, and luckily that took off without a hitch.

yeah SeaTac is a nightmare.  I heard today that the lines for TSA are reaching into the parking garage, but their app says the wait times are 5 minutes.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

We should let foreign carriers operate domestically.  

If more competition doesn't work, we can always come back to regulatory solutions, but at least some of the problems in the airline industry just come down to too few firms operating on most routes.  

 

[joffer]

wouldn’t fly right now without a gun to my head

 

[-fish-]

We should let foreign carriers operate domestically.  

If more competition doesn't work, we can always come back to regulatory solutions, but at least some of the problems in the airline industry just come down to too few firms operating on most routes.  

Delays and cancellations are a global issue.   KLM has the most cancellations of any airline.   Lufthansa is up there too.

 

[The General]

The airlines are easy marks. Even with decent status flying was/is pretty ####ty experience and typically by far the worst part of your traveling experience IMO. 

A little heat and spotlight from the Feds is a good idea as there are many factors contributing to this.

For the most part the grunts on the ground - ticket agents, baggage dudes, pilots, flight attendants are doing their best and even hen it all goes to hell you just got to suck it up. I have been flying a decent amount recently and have just gotten lucky I guess but have def had some horror stories in the past

That being said if you buy a supersaver fare from discount airline that has like 1 flight a day to your destination then you may want to prepare yourself for some potential misery

 

[djmich]

So my flights are going to cost double because now if a flight is delayed by a couple hours the airline has to refund everyone's money?   No thanks.

I don't know what the fix is, but that isn't it.   

One thing I've learned in planning vacations  is if you have flexibility, plan your trip for the beginning of the month.   Pilots hit their maximum hours toward the end of the month and when there are already pilot shortages it just makes that worse.   

Exactly

 

[MAC_32]

I believe most of the industry offered early retirement during the Covid shut down.

The issue began before then, but covid was the tipping point. Airlines created this problem and they can wear it.

 

[Cjw_55106]

The issue began before then, but covid was the tipping point. Airlines created this problem and they can wear it.

They can wear it all they want but it’s not going to affect them. 

 

[djmich]

The issue began before then, but covid was the tipping point. Airlines created this problem and they can wear it.

I think based on this thread we’re wearing it

 

[BassNBrew]

So my flights are going to cost double because now if a flight is delayed by a couple hours the airline has to refund everyone's money?   No thanks.

I don't know what the fix is, but that isn't it.   

One thing I've learned in planning vacations  is if you have flexibility, plan your trip for the beginning of the month.   Pilots hit their maximum hours toward the end of the month and when there are already pilot shortages it just makes that worse.   

"During the pandemic, when air travel came to a near halt, U.S. taxpayers came to the rescue and gave $54 billion to the airline industry," Sanders, the chair of the Senate Budget Committee, wrote in the letter. "The top eight airlines alone received nearly $50 billion in taxpayer assistance from the federal government. Given all of the generous taxpayer support that has been provided to the airline industry, all of us have a responsibility to make sure that passengers and crew members are treated with respect, not contempt."

Sanders urged Buttigieg to require airlines to refund passengers for flights that are delayed more than an hour, including requiring ticket refunds and alternative transportation for passengers who experience delays of up to four hours and meals and lodging for those delayed longer.

@-fish- Bizarro world when this pro-business libertarian supports this and someone on the liberal spectrum doesn't.  When I screw something up or don't meet deadlines it's costs me money or business.  I view buying a ticket as a contract.  I give you money to get me from A to B at the time promised.  You don't fulfill your side then you should be giving me a partial refund (weather excluded).  Just because you have me by the short hairs because I'm 1500 miles from home and it would take 4 months to walk shouldn't entitle you to bend me over and rape me.

Bernie looking out for the average Joe/Jane while his party is spending funds to get little Trumps elected.

 

[MAC_32]

I think based on this thread we’re wearing it

Of course we are. The game is rigged for them and against us. Corporations will pass their charges along to us like they always do. I ain't flying again anytime soon and I encourage others with the means not to. #### 'em.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I don't think it makes you a socialist.  I've had multiple bad experiences this year.  Multiple people in my family have had issues this year.  Thousands of flights have been cancelled, god knows how many delayed.  

And while I appreciate the staffing shortage, don't sell flights you're likely going to cancel.  

I don't care about the money.  But I'd like to see them held accountable and clean this mess up.  

We're going to drive to South Carolina in the fall instead of flying just to avoid all the headaches.

Why do people want the govt involved?  If anything can make this worse, it’s having politicians try to solve it for us.

 

[BassNBrew]

Why do people want the govt involved?  If anything can make this worse, it’s having politicians try to solve it for us.

Gov't gave the $54 billion to save their business.  Seems like they need gov't help to run their business.

 

[MAC_32]

Gov't gave the $54 billion to save their business.  Seems like they need gov't help to run their business.

The opposite. The gov't needs to stop bailing them out while they stuff their pockets with our money. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The opposite. The gov't needs to stop bailing them out while they stuff their pockets with our money. 

Yup

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Gov't gave the $54 billion to save their business.  Seems like they need gov't help to run their business.

The opposite. The gov't needs to stop bailing them out while they stuff their pockets with our money. 

You guys do remember that there was a global pandemic that more or less shut down air travel for a year or so, and governments around the world were throwing out money left and right to individual households and businesses to minimize the economic fall-out, right?  

Did you cash a check from the government during the pandemic?  Does that mean that you're now a pawn of the state?  I don't think so.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

@-fish- Bizarro world when this pro-business libertarian supports this and someone on the liberal spectrum doesn't.  When I screw something up or don't meet deadlines it's costs me money or business.  I view buying a ticket as a contract.  I give you money to get me from A to B at the time promised.  You don't fulfill your side then you should be giving me a partial refund (weather excluded).  Just because you have me by the short hairs because I'm 1500 miles from home and it would take 4 months to walk shouldn't entitle you to bend me over and rape me.

Bernie looking out for the average Joe/Jane while his party is spending funds to get little Trumps elected.

The contract you agree to with the airline includes remedies for the logistical snafus that will inevitably materialize in any system this complicated.  As @-fish- rightly notes, you can't just wave a magic wand and say "full refunds if your flight is delayed an hour" and think that that won't affect pricing, route selection, capacity, and so on.  

Being delayed by a couple of hours, missing a connection, and arriving to your destination later than you planned sucks.  Sometimes there's nothing airlines can realistically do about it, like when thunderstorms decide to hang over a major hub.  Sometimes it's because they pushed their logistical luck a little too hard.  Sometimes its probably malfeasance (like when a half-empty flight gets cancelled and you get rebooked on another flight a few hours later that also just so happened to be half-empty).  Regardless, it's not really that a huge a deal, and I'd rather just put up with a little uncertainty than find out what happens when the government gets involved.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The contract you agree to with the airline includes remedies for the logistical snafus that will inevitably materialize in any system this complicated.  As @-fish- rightly notes, you can't just wave a magic wand and say "full refunds if your flight is delayed an hour" and think that that won't affect pricing, route selection, capacity, and so on.  

Being delayed by a couple of hours, missing a connection, and arriving to your destination later than you planned sucks.  Sometimes there's nothing airlines can realistically do about it, like when thunderstorms decide to hang over a major hub.  Sometimes it's because they pushed their logistical luck a little too hard.  Sometimes its probably malfeasance (like when a half-empty flight gets cancelled and you get rebooked on another flight a few hours later that also just so happened to be half-empty).  Regardless, it's not really that a huge a deal, and I'd rather just put up with a little uncertainty than find out what happens when the government gets involved.

Exactly.  Unforeseen consequences are a real phenomena, in any industry, when the govt gets involved.  

 

[BassNBrew]

You guys do remember that there was a global pandemic that more or less shut down air travel for a year or so, and governments around the world were throwing out money left and right to individual households and businesses to minimize the economic fall-out, right?  

Did you cash a check from the government during the pandemic?  Does that mean that you're now a pawn of the state?  I don't think so.

Yes

No

 

[MAC_32]

You guys do remember that there was a global pandemic that more or less shut down air travel for a year or so, and governments around the world were throwing out money left and right to individual households and businesses to minimize the economic fall-out, right?  

Did you cash a check from the government during the pandemic?  Does that mean that you're now a pawn of the state?  I don't think so.

Yes. We saved ours in case there was a bumpy road coming out the other side. 

 

[BassNBrew]

The contract you agree to with the airline includes remedies for the logistical snafus that will inevitably materialize in any system this complicated.  As @-fish- rightly notes, you can't just wave a magic wand and say "full refunds if your flight is delayed an hour" and think that that won't affect pricing, route selection, capacity, and so on.  

Being delayed by a couple of hours, missing a connection, and arriving to your destination later than you planned sucks.  Sometimes there's nothing airlines can realistically do about it, like when thunderstorms decide to hang over a major hub.  Sometimes it's because they pushed their logistical luck a little too hard.  Sometimes its probably malfeasance (like when a half-empty flight gets cancelled and you get rebooked on another flight a few hours later that also just so happened to be half-empty).  Regardless, it's not really that a huge a deal, and I'd rather just put up with a little uncertainty than find out what happens when the government gets involved.

I'm not asking for full refunds.  Maybe Bernie is, but I also asked for $35k off my last home before accepting $25k off so I don't get hung up on the starting point of any ask.  I'm not asking for refunds for weather.  I'm asking for refunds for the malfeasance you mention or the airlines scheduling flights when they know they don't have the staff for them.  Maybe your time isn't a huge deal to you, but for many of us it represents lost money or lost opportunity.

Being a police officer is complicated.  The federal gov't (DOJ) steps in to investigate when one of them abuses the system.for the protection of the people.  Creating a new drug is complicated.  The federal gov't steps in to investigate when one of the drugs starts putting people in the hospital.  There a numerous complicated industries where the federal gov't steps in when said industry is unable properly execute.

 

[-fish-]

I'm not asking for full refunds.  Maybe Bernie is, but I also asked for $35k off my last home before accepting $25k off so I don't get hung up on the starting point of any ask.  I'm not asking for refunds for weather.  I'm asking for refunds for the malfeasance you mention or the airlines scheduling flights when they know they don't have the staff for them.  Maybe your time isn't a huge deal to you, but for many of us it represents lost money or lost opportunity.

Being a police officer is complicated.  The federal gov't (DOJ) steps in to investigate when one of them abuses the system.for the protection of the people.  Creating a new drug is complicated.  The federal gov't steps in to investigate when one of the drugs starts putting people in the hospital.  There a numerous complicated industries where the federal gov't steps in when said industry is unable properly execute.

Let the market sort it out.   The contract you enter when you buy a plane ticket builds the risk into it.  You know you can pay more for a fully refundable ticket, right?  If you're that worried about the risk, pay to mitigate it.    The one thing I don't want is the government causing my ticket prices to double with some punitive program for delays and cancellations.  

I'm flying to Tahiti in November.   It's a once in a lifetime trip.   I need to get from Seattle to LA and then get on an international flight at 4 p.m.   Some travelers would try to fly that day, and then scream and cry when their flight is cancelled and their vacation is ruined.

 I won't.  I'll fly down the day before and stay in a hotel.   I may even buy tickets on two different flights to deal with the fact that one may be cancelled.  I'll just refund the one I don't use.   The airlines are not responsible for passengers being cheap or short-sighted.

 

[-fish-]

Quote
"During the pandemic, when air travel came to a near halt, U.S. taxpayers came to the rescue and gave $54 billion to the airline industry," Sanders, the chair of the Senate Budget Committee, wrote in the letter. "The top eight airlines alone received nearly $50 billion in taxpayer assistance from the federal government. Given all of the generous taxpayer support that has been provided to the airline industry, all of us have a responsibility to make sure that passengers and crew members are treated with respect, not contempt."

Sanders urged Buttigieg to require airlines to refund passengers for flights that are delayed more than an hour, including requiring ticket refunds and alternative transportation for passengers who experience delays of up to four hours and meals and lodging for those delayed longer.
Expand  

@-fish- Bizarro world when this pro-business libertarian supports this and someone on the liberal spectrum doesn't.  When I screw something up or don't meet deadlines it's costs me money or business.  I view buying a ticket as a contract.  I give you money to get me from A to B at the time promised.  You don't fulfill your side then you should be giving me a partial refund (weather excluded).  Just because you have me by the short hairs because I'm 1500 miles from home and it would take 4 months to walk shouldn't entitle you to bend me over and rape me.

Bernie looking out for the average Joe/Jane while his party is spending funds to get little Trumps elected.

Did US taxpayers really bail out the airlines?  I don't recall us voting on this.    Of course, we foot the bill for this, but it wasn't our decision.

The main problem is the labor shortage following the pandemic.   The same reason that my local restaurant closes 2 hours earlier than it used to is the same reason flights are delayed.   Pilot shortages, baggage handler shortages, ticketing shortages.   The government wants to step in?   Stop handing people money for not working, stop sending out checks, lower middle class taxes and incentivize people go to work.  Also the FAA should consider revising mandatory retirement for pilots to allow for pilots to continue flying in multi-pilot operations with annual fitness tests.

 

[BassNBrew]

Did US taxpayers really bail out the airlines?  I don't recall us voting on this.    Of course, we foot the bill for this, but it wasn't our decision.

The main problem is the labor shortage following the pandemic.   The same reason that my local restaurant closes 2 hours earlier than it used to is the same reason flights are delayed.   Pilot shortages, baggage handler shortages, ticketing shortages.   The government wants to step in?   Stop handing people money for not working, stop sending out checks, lower middle class taxes and incentivize people go to work.  Also the FAA should consider revising mandatory retirement for pilots to allow for pilots to continue flying in multi-pilot operations with annual fitness tests.

@-fish- I really thought you were a liberal based on our previous conversations.  If this is the new liberalism than I might ditch the Libertarian party for the Democrats.

 

[parasaurolophus]

The contract you agree to with the airline includes remedies for the logistical snafus that will inevitably materialize in any system this complicated

Airlines lie all the time to get out of paying refunds. 

 

[Zow]

Welp, for the first time in my life I had a flight outright canceled. Put on a flight tomorrow with no guarantee that my wife and I can sit with our four kids despite us booking months ago to ensure this very thing. My wife was on hold for two hours today then told we needed to pay an up charge if we wanted to all sit together. 
 

Plan tomorrow is to get there early just in the hopes we can sit together. Going to be fun explaining that all our kids experienced significant trauma before being placed with us. 
 

And this is all ignoring the fact that we just law a day of our vacation without any offer of even an explanation let alone compensation. 
 

I do hope there’s some market correct forthcoming. 

 

[Zigg]

Welp, for the first time in my life I had a flight outright canceled. Put on a flight tomorrow with no guarantee that my wife and I can sit with our four kids despite us booking months ago to ensure this very thing. My wife was on hold for two hours today then told we needed to pay an up charge if we wanted to all sit together. 
 

Plan tomorrow is to get there early just in the hopes we can sit together. Going to be fun explaining that all our kids experienced significant trauma before being placed with us. 
 

And this is all ignoring the fact that we just law a day of our vacation without any offer of even an explanation let alone compensation. 
 

I do hope there’s some market correct forthcoming. 

That sucks. I have no idea why the populace put up with this. At what point do we fight back against the cartoonish greed?

 

[parasaurolophus]

our four kids

Please change your name to Arizona GM 

 

[waiver wire]

The EU has very clear rules on delays and the fines are handed out quickly 

Canada's laws have gotten better but are still brutal . Most of the time the airlines give weak excuses and dont pay . Knowing people will get fed up after 10-12 emails going back and forth 
We have to take them to small claims courts to get pay back and fingers crossed the government will make our rules like the EU rules