Bet with a friend about NFL rule... (1 Viewer)

[Jous]

For the penalty "ineligible receiver downfield" what exactly is "downfield?" I've read in some places that a penalty for ineligible receiver is called if a lineman is 5 yards or more past the line of scrimmage, but a couple people told me that it's called if a lineman is just an inch past the line of scrimmage.

Any experts in the house?

 

[JayMan]

For the penalty "ineligible receiver downfield" what exactly is "downfield?" I've read in some places that a penalty for ineligible receiver is called if a lineman is 5 yards or more past the line of scrimmage, but a couple people told me that it's called if a lineman is just an inch past the line of scrimmage.

Any experts in the house?

From Wikipedia:Ineligible receiver down field (5 yards) - an ineligible receiver is past the line of scrimmage prior to a forward pass. Ineligible receivers must wait until the pass has been thrown and travels past the line of scrimmage to move past the line of scrimmage. This penalty is not imposed if the receiver is behind the line of scrimmage when he receives the pass. This exception has been added to accommodate the screen pass, where a receiver (most often a back, but sometimes a tight end or wide receiver) catches a ball behind the line of scrimmage behind a "screen" of offensive linemen. Referee signal: One palm touching the top of the head with the elbow out to the side.

 

[The Man With No Name]

No more than 1 yard downfield after losing contact with an opponent, or past the line of scrimmage if there is no contact with an opponent.

 

[trader jake]

Technically you lose, sorry. Realistically you are correct.

It's just like speed limit laws. Technically 1 mph over the limit is speeding but do you really get pulled over for driving 1 mph over the limit? More like 10. The refs in the NFL will let it go if the lineman is under 5 yards from the line of scrimmage.

 

[Jous]

Hmm... but I also found this from Wikipedia

Eligible receiver

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In American Football and Canadian Football, not all players on offence are entitled to receive a forward pass. Only an eligible pass receiver may legally catch a forward pass, or be more than five yards over the line of scrimmage on a forward passing play. If the pass is received by a non-eligible receiver, the penalty for ineligible receiver is assessed (the play is treated as an incomplete pass, unless the ball is downed behind the line of scrimmage - in either case a down is lost). If a non-eligible receiver is more than five yards downfield on a completed forward pass, the penalty assessed is "ineligible receiver downfield" (a loss of yardage, but not loss of down).

also, what if the QB moves outside of the pocket?

 

[Jous]

bump...

 

[GregR_2]

For the penalty "ineligible receiver downfield" what exactly is "downfield?" I've read in some places that a penalty for ineligible receiver is called if a lineman is 5 yards or more past the line of scrimmage, but a couple people told me that it's called if a lineman is just an inch past the line of scrimmage.Any experts in the house?

I'm in the office right now so don't have the rule book accessible. If MT isn't home yet to have his book and doesn't beat me to it, I'll try to remember to post the full rule for you tonight.

 

[bez18]

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/forwardpass

 

[bez18]

This actually gives a nice description.. should help you out!

http://www.referee.com/usafootball/rules.html

Ineligible receiver downfield. Interior linemen are ineligible receivers. Team A players who are on the ends of their scrimmage line and are numbered 1-49 or 80-99 are eligible receivers. Interior lineman are restricted from going downfield on a play on which a legal forward pass crosses the neutral zone. The tackle eligible play is illegal.

Ineligible team A linemen are not illegally downfield if they immediately contact a team B lineman and drive him back provided the contact does not continue beyond the two-yard expanded neutral zone.

Play 5: Third and five on team A’s 30 yardline. A1 throws a forward pass well downfield. While the pass is in flight, guard A6 is blocking B3 at team A’s: (a) 30 yardline, (b) 32 yardline, © 33 yardline, or (d) 35 yardline. A6 began contacting B3 right after the snap and on team A’s 30 yardline and sustained the block. Ruling 5: Legal plays in (a) and (b); offensive pass interference (and ineligible illegally downfield) in © and (d).

 

[GregR_2]

For the penalty "ineligible receiver downfield" what exactly is "downfield?" I've read in some places that a penalty for ineligible receiver is called if a lineman is 5 yards or more past the line of scrimmage, but a couple people told me that it's called if a lineman is just an inch past the line of scrimmage.

Any experts in the house?

Page 104, Rule 8, Section 2:Article 2:

It is a foul when an ineligible offensive player (including a T-formation quarterback), prior to a legal forward pass:

(a) advances beyond his line, after losing contact with an opponent at the line of scrimmage;

(b) Loses contact with an opponent downfield after the initial charge, and then continues to advance or move laterally; or

© moves downfield without contacting an opponent at the line of scrimmage.

The above restrictions end when the ball leaves the passer's hand.

Note: The guideline for officials to use for an ineligible player(s) to be illegally downfield: the offending player must be more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage prior to the pass.

Penality: Ineligible offenisve player downfield: loss of five yards from the previous spot.

Article 3:

It is not a foul for an ineligible receiver downfield when ineligible receivers:

(a) block an opponent at the line of scrimmage, which drives him downfield, loses the block and remains stationary;

(b) are forced behind their line;

© move laterally behind their line (before or after contact of their initial charge) provided they do not advance beyond their line until the ball leaves the passer's hands; or

(d) have legally crossed their line in blocking an opponent (eligible offensive player A1 may complete a pass between them and the offensive line).

 

[Jous]

good info, but still gives me 2 questions...

1. If the offensive lineman(or men) block a player past the line of scrimage at first, then leave their block but still stay let's say 2 yards past the line of scrimmage before the pass, is it still legal?

2. (and I think this is a tough question) Again, what if the QB rolls out and completely leaves the pocket? Remember, when a QB leaves the pocket, defensive players are allowed more touching with the WR's because they say the QB is considered a runner once he leaves the pocket. Offensive linemen are allowed past the line of scrimmage on a run. Therefore, if a QB leaves the pocket and linemen go past the line of scrimmage, and THEN the QB throws it outside the pocket, flag or no flag?

 

[Jous]

Thanks Greg, you answered the first of those last 2 remaining questions... but #2 I think still remains in question...

yea I know, this bet is getting pretty specific, but it's like $50 <__<

 

[LoveMuscle]

good info, but still gives me 2 questions...

1. If the offensive lineman(or men) block a player past the line of scrimage at first, then leave their block but still stay let's say 2 yards past the line of scrimmage before the pass, is it still legal?

2. (and I think this is a tough question) Again, what if the QB rolls out and completely leaves the pocket? Remember, when a QB leaves the pocket, defensive players are allowed more touching with the WR's because they say the QB is considered a runner once he leaves the pocket. Offensive linemen are allowed past the line of scrimmage on a run. Therefore, if a QB leaves the pocket and linemen go past the line of scrimmage, and THEN the QB throws it outside the pocket, flag or no flag?

It doesn't matter where the QB is. Ineligible receivers can not be beyond the line of scrimmage (except as mentioned above) at the time of a forward pass.

 

[GregR_2]

Thanks Greg, you answered the first of those last 2 remaining questions... but #2 I think still remains in question...yea I know, this bet is getting pretty specific, but it's like $50 <__<

I don't see anything that indicates the QB's location matters for ineligible receiver downfield.

 

[Jous]

Alright. So to summarize it, no offensive lineman can be beyond a yard or else they'll call the penalty. Here's the play I was having a bet on... and of course, it's from XL. It's on Roethlisberger's 3rd and 28 throw, where Max Starks is a little past the line of scrimmage when Ben throws the ball. By the time the ball comes out, it looks like he's either 1 yard past or just slightly over 1 yard, which would probably lead to a no call in most cases like this one, I guess...

I dunno how my bet will end up being resolved though. Technically, I'm wrong, but according to those officiating guidelines Greg posted, if it's just a little over the line, it really shouldn't be called.

Here's the link to the highlights if anyone's interested. Play happens at around 47 seconds into it.

http://play.rbn.com/?url=nfl/nfl/open/nflf...ontextwidth=500

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Technically, I'm wrong, but according to those officiating guidelines Greg posted, if it's just a little over the line, it really shouldn't be called.

Uhh, what? Did I miss that post?All I saw is that it isn't called if the receiver is behind the line, or if the OL engage in a block and pass the line (which, I never knew). You are wrong, no matter how you look at it.Good catch in SB XL, though. Yet another blown call by the refs, in Pitt's favor...

 

[Jous]

Technically, I'm wrong, but according to those officiating guidelines Greg posted, if it's just a little over the line, it really shouldn't be called.

Uhh, what? Did I miss that post?All I saw is that it isn't called if the receiver is behind the line, or if the OL engage in a block and pass the line (which, I never knew). You are wrong, no matter how you look at it.Good catch in SB XL, though. Yet another blown call by the refs, in Pitt's favor...

Actually, you did miss that part... look at the italicized part in GregR's second to last post in this topic. It says their guidelines are to call it if the player is more than a yard past the line of scrimmage.By the time the ball leaves Ben's hand, I think Starks is either right on the line of 1 yard past the LOS, or a few inches past a yard, so I really dunno if I'd call that a blown call actually...That's why my bet is up in the air, because it was about this play specifically and whther it should have been called or not

 

[FFLHummers]

I, for one, am more confused than before I read this thread.

 

[Jous]

LOL, I really don't blame you..

For summarization, here you go...

Unless declared eligible before the start of a play, an offensive lineman cannot be farther than 1 yard beyond the LOS by the time a pass is thrown, unless he's blocking his man or was forced to block his man a little beyond the LOS at the start of the play...

I think >_<

 

[GregR_2]

LOL, I really don't blame you..For summarization, here you go...Unless declared eligible before the start of a play, an offensive lineman cannot be farther than 1 yard beyond the LOS by the time a pass is thrown, unless he's blocking his man or was forced to block his man a little beyond the LOS at the start of the play...I think >_<

I'd say that's pretty accurate, and add that if he loses contact with his man he's blocking, he either has to stand still, or move back towards the line of scrimmage. Moving forward or laterally should draw a flag.

 

[Jous]

I doubt that it really does draw a flag though. I'm sure that a flag should be thrown on average about 8 times a game, but is probably only called on average at once or 0 times per game. Mostly for the simple reason that the refs have so much else they need to keep an eye on first.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Technically, I'm wrong, but according to those officiating guidelines Greg posted, if it's just a little over the line, it really shouldn't be called.

Uhh, what? Did I miss that post?All I saw is that it isn't called if the receiver is behind the line, or if the OL engage in a block and pass the line (which, I never knew). You are wrong, no matter how you look at it.

Good catch in SB XL, though. Yet another blown call by the refs, in Pitt's favor...

You could probably find five of these "blown calls" on each side. That's not a referee mistake. The game has been over for 11 months. Get over it.

The spirit of the rule is twofold:

1. To keep offensive linemen from drive-blocking on pass plays and giving the defense a reasonable chance to rush the passer.

2. To keep offensive linemen from setting picks or otherwise interfering with the defense's ability to cover receivers.

You could probably call this all the time and make a mockery of the game, just like you could call holding on every play. But that would be stupid. Max Starks standing a step or two beyond the LOS, while not involved in the play, will never be called and should never be called.

 

[Jous]

I do agree with that... technically, it went against the letter of the law, but if it would have been called, it would have been a very "ticky-tacky" call, which is exactly what people said they DIDN'T want to see