Better Player: Roberto Alomar or Tim Raines (1 Viewer)

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So on a lazy Sunday, I'm thinking of guys who've endured somewhat steep dropoffs from superstardom, these two guys popped in my head. Similar in many respects, switch hitters known more for their wheels than their power, both had controversies that colored them( Rock with the Rock, Robbie with the spit). The numbers are comprable, but I'm curious today, who do you think was the better player. Some stats:

Raines:

23 seasons

.285

.385

.425

2605 hits

808 steals

1571 runs scored

430 2b

170 HR

980 RBI

batting title in 86

7 time allstar, MVP in 87

Alomar:

17 seasons

.300

.371

.443

2724 hits

474 steals

1508 runs scored

504 2b

210 HR

1134 RBI

11 time all star

10 gold gloves

Raines was pretty injury plagued through his 30s, so the extra seasons are a bit decieving, but Alomar has a edge in most cats, part from that impressive 800 steal number, which would be what would put Raines in the Hall if he ever gets there.

Realizing the positional differnece, 2b is a thinner slot than OF, but its strange Robbie is so instantly consdiered a HOFer, but Raines doesn't get much meaningful consideration. I think at their best, Raines was actually a better player. The Gold Gloves are a big feather in Alomar's cap though. Raines also played most of his career in the 80's, outside of the booming offensive era of the 90's.

For the record, I don't know that either one should be in the hall, slight edge to robbie for the gold gloves and 11 straight all star appearances, those are era definining numbers. But at their best, I think the Rock was better.

 

[Gaddis]

The Gold Gloves are a big feather in Alomar's cap though.

A bit of a feather? Alomar is arguably the best defensive second baseman ever.

 

[guru_007]

This isn't even close.

A better question is who was the best second baseman:

Jeff Kent

Roberto Alomar

Craig Biggio

 

[Smack Tripper]

This isn't even close.A better question is who was the best second baseman:Jeff KentRoberto AlomarCraig Biggio

I was tempted to say Alomar, but apart from his Houston years, Kent almost always played in pitchers parks. The defense and game changing aspects Alomar could bring, versus the sheer numbers Kent dialed up, I think I lean toward Robbie. Biggio, hmmm, outside looking in.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Alomar also has 2 world series rings and played well in the playoffs, I seem to remember a late inning home run against the A's in the 1992 AL pennant

I thought Alomar may have been the best all around player in the game in the early 1990s

 

[avoiding injuries]

I thought Alomar may have been the best all around player in the game in the early 1990s

He had a spitter that I've never seen before. Outstanding.What a shame that one incident will be thought of anytime his career is brought up.

 

[Scrap Iron]

I thought Alomar may have been the best all around player in the game in the early 1990s

He had a spitter that I've never seen before. Outstanding.What a shame that one incident will be thought of anytime his career is brought up.

It's not a shame. He deserves it. That was the most heinous thing I've ever seen in sports - worse than Tyson biting Holyfield.

 

[HoTnickZ]

I thought Alomar may have been the best all around player in the game in the early 1990s

He had a spitter that I've never seen before. Outstanding.What a shame that one incident will be thought of anytime his career is brought up.

It's not a shame. He deserves it. That was the most heinous thing I've ever seen in sports - worse than Tyson biting Holyfield.

 

[HoTnickZ]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/..._hirschbeck_ap/

Happy ending

Alomar, Hirschbeck now good friends 4 years later

Click here for more on this story

Posted: Monday May 15, 2000 06:58 PM

hirschbeck Michael Hirschbeck (right) talks with his father, umpire John Hirschbeck, before a game. AP

CLEVELAND (AP) -- Thirteen-year-old Michael Hirschbeck quickly slipped on his Cleveland Indians' bat boy uniform and went looking for his friend, Roberto Alomar.

"He came up and gave me a hug," Alomar said.

Four years ago, when Alomar was with the Baltimore Orioles, he spat in the face of Michael's father, umpire John Hirschbeck, in a fit of rage at being called out on strikes.

On Saturday, a hug symbolized the bonds now shared by two men who have not only put an ugly moment behind them but become friends while fighting a deadly brain disease which afflicts young Michael.

"It's a good baseball story, isn't it?" said John Hirschbeck, who worked home plate Saturday at Jacobs Field while his son served as the Indians honorary bat boy.

"We always hear about the negative things, and it's really turned into something special. Who would have ever thought that we'd be standing here after what happened in 1996?"

During a late September game that year, Alomar and Hirschbeck became forever linked by a confrontation near home plate at the Skydome in Toronto.

Enraged for being called out on strikes by Hirschbeck, Alomar got into an argument and then spit in the umpire's face, an act that earned him a five-game suspension and a permanent place in baseball infamy.

Alomar made matters worse afterward by saying he thought Hirschbeck was under stress because his 8-year-old son, John Drew, had died of a rare brain disease in 1993 known as adrenoleukodystrophy (ALD).

Michael Hirschbeck, too, has ALD and 1,000 other people each year in the U.S. will become afflicted with the degenerative genetic disease that causes inflammation in the brain.

But now Alomar and his brother, Sandy, the Indians catcher, are helping the Hirschbecks raise money for a foundation they started to find a cure for ALD.

"Maybe God put us in this world to help somebody beat this disease," Roberto said.

The Alomars donated autographed jerseys last season for a charity auction Hirschbeck hosts in conjunction with a golf tournament near his home in Poland, about 80 miles southeast of Cleveland.

Framed together, the Alomar jerseys fetched $6,600 -- the highest-priced item sold.

This year, Roberto is buying 25 jerseys that the Indians will wear during an upcoming game. He'll have each player sign his jersey and will donate all of them for Hirschbeck's fund-raising auction in July.

"You couldn't hit a bigger home run than that," said Hirschbeck, whose events have raised nearly $250,000 for ALD research the past two years.

The Alomar-Hirschbeck reconciliation began last year, aided by the help of a mutual friend, Jack Efta, who runs the umpire's room at Jacobs Field.

Following the spitting incident, Hirschbeck had done all he could to avoid Alomar, who signed with the Indians -- the team closest to the Hirschbeck family's home -- following the '98 season.

To keep his distance from Alomar, Hirschbeck would even position himself to the shortstop side of the second base bag in order to keep his contact with Alomar to a minimum.

But before a game last season, Hirschbeck said he became curious about Alomar and questioned Efta, his longtime friend.

"What kind of guy is Alomar?" Hirschbeck asked Efta. "He said, 'He's one of the two nicest people I've met. And you're the other one.'"

Shocked, Hirschbeck decided to make a move. He approached Alomar that night, and after talking things out, the two decided to let go of the past. They now consider each other friends.

"If that's the worst thing Robbie ever does in his life, he'll lead a real good life," Hirschbeck said. "People make mistakes. You forgive, you forget and you move on."

Alomar, who donated $50,000 to Hirschbeck's foundation when he made his initial apology, wants to do the same. But he knows there will always be someone who will mention the incident, and he's still booed in some cities.

"I want people to know that I care about people, especially kids," he said. "That's what it's all about. We're not here to hold grudges, we're here to help people. Hopefully, someday a miracle will happen and we can find a cure for John's son. That would be the happiest day of my life, because I had helped somebody."

Michael Hirschbeck had a checkup at the University of Minnesota Hospital last week and an MRI showed that there wasn't any increased inflammation in his brain.

"He reads and writes on a first-grade level," his father said. "They don't know if that will ever change."

During the trip to Minnesota, Michael was the Twins' bat boy for two games -- against the Indians. The Hirschbecks have become close to Twins manager Tom Kelly.

"Sandy and some of the other guys were giving him a hard time because they know he's a big Indians fan," Hirschbeck said.

The Twins rallied to win both games. But on Saturday, Michael got to run on the field with the Indians in the 12th inning when Cleveland came back to beat the Royals.

"I think he's good luck," Roberto Alomar said. "He was happy and that was the main thing."

Moral of the story is people make mistakes (Hirshbeck included, for whatever role he played). It's how they bounce back from them that counts. Sure, he has to pay and he's paid plenty but I've met Robbie, and he seems like a genuinely good guy.Anyway on the field, Alomar was one of the best at his position of all time, and definitely of his era.

 

[Breed]

Alomar gets more power and distance when hocking a loogie.

 

[Workhorse]

Alomar, and it ain't even close.

Sorry, but a career .800 OPS from an outfielder doesn't get you into the hall of fame in any era. It's bad enough that Kirby Puckett is already in there...

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Alomar, and it ain't even close.Sorry, but a career .800 OPS from an outfielder doesn't get you into the hall of fame in any era. It's bad enough that Kirby Puckett is already in there...

So those 800 steals don't do much for you?In all honesty, breaking him down, he played in a stolen base happy era and hit on Turf for half his career. In turn, he did develop leg problems thereafter, which may or may not be attributable to turf. However, he also played in parks that were pretty large, more importantly, with lots of foul territory, and there were 4 fewer teams then when Robbie was playing in his prime. Pitching was a high caliber for the Rock.I would give the edge to Alomar, but its an edge, not a total blow out. Raines was on quite a trajectory before the injuries.

 

[HoTnickZ]

I think Biggio might be a better comparison.

In my opinion, Alomar is clearly better even though win shares overrates Biggio. Alomar was undoubtedly a better fielder, way better in the post season (both with significant sample sizes), and much more of an impactful player at his peak. Biggio had better durability, and ability to be hit by pitches.

I see many stat geeks including Bill James (Biggio fanboy) misreading this one though because of overvaluing counting stats and win shares. While conceding that there is a lot to be said for lasting as long as he has while playing at a decent level, to anyone who watched the two play, there is simply no comparison.

 

[Workhorse]

Alomar, and it ain't even close.Sorry, but a career .800 OPS from an outfielder doesn't get you into the hall of fame in any era. It's bad enough that Kirby Puckett is already in there...

So those 800 steals don't do much for you?In all honesty, breaking him down, he played in a stolen base happy era and hit on Turf for half his career. In turn, he did develop leg problems thereafter, which may or may not be attributable to turf. However, he also played in parks that were pretty large, more importantly, with lots of foul territory, and there were 4 fewer teams then when Robbie was playing in his prime. Pitching was a high caliber for the Rock.I would give the edge to Alomar, but its an edge, not a total blow out. Raines was on quite a trajectory before the injuries.

Stolen bases are one of the most overrated stats in terms of run correlation. The "value" of a stolen base is so minimal compared to the "negative value" of a caught stealing that stolen bases are only adding to a team's success if a player is above a 75% SB/CS ratio. Granted, Raines was successful 84% of the time on his SB attempts so his stolen bases were beneficial to the teams he played on. But in terms of sheer value, all of those stolen bases didn't mean nearly as much as say, a player who had better slugging numbers than Raines -- Which was nearly every decent outfielder of his era. The guy finished in the top 10 in slugging % ONCE in his career. For playing in a big park, it's not like he hit a ton of doubles and triples - Even though he had teammates through his time as an Expo that put up nice slugging numbers (Gary Carter, Al Oliver, Tim Wallach, Andre Dawson, Galarraga) He was a singles hitter. And it's not like he made up for it be being a "plus" defender -- Tim Raines was very mediocre in the field too. Alomar, by comparison, hit a lot more doubles and triples, had similar production to Raines in terms of OBP while playing a premium defensive position in the middle infield at a Gold Glove level for his whole career. Sorry, but Tim Raines isn't close to a Hall of Famer in my book. Alomar is a lock.

 

[David Yudkin]

HOF Montior Scores

Alomar 193.5

Raines 90.0

 

[Smack Tripper]

Bump for the Alomar "snub".

I think he'll get in and I think Raines won't, and I'm sorta fine with both of those beliefs, given that Alomar will walk in next year.

 

[Chairshot]

Comparing a LF and a 2B, especially ones that played in different decades is kinda futile. However, just as a point of reference:

Win Shares:

Raines - 390

Alomar - 375

Runs Created:

Raines - 1636

Alomar - 1575

WARP:

Raines - 81.7

Alomar - 79.4

EQA:

Raines: .305

Alomar: .285

OPS+:

Raines - 123

Alomar - 116

They are most definitely in the same world has hitters, with Raines clearly the better of the two. Raines would have a pretty big advantage as a base stealer. Alomar probably has a nice advantage with the glove.

Additionally, while it is true that SBs in general are overrated, SBs stolen at a 85% clip certainly are not. Raines is the best base stealer of all time. He absolutely positively effected his teams run production by stealing bases.

Personally, I feel they are both no-brainers for the Hall. The voters obviously feel differently.

 

[Chairshot]

HOF Montior ScoresAlomar 193.5Raines 90.0

Does this mean you feel like the best way to decide who is the better player is by HOF Monitor Scores?

 

[Smack Tripper]

And a bump for the induction

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Spit beats Rock.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

This isn't even close.A better question is who was the best second baseman:Jeff KentRoberto AlomarCraig Biggio

That would be an interesting one. Without breaking down the numbers I'd probably give a slight edge to Alomar...but I could see votes for Kent.

 

[Eephus]

This isn't even close.A better question is who was the best second baseman:Jeff KentRoberto AlomarCraig Biggio

That would be an interesting one. Without breaking down the numbers I'd probably give a slight edge to Alomar...but I could see votes for Kent.

AlomarBiggioKentBiggio would deserve consideration on top if he played his entire career at 2B. Raines began his career at 2B. If he could have fielded the position and maintained his offensive production, he'd probably be in the mix as the best 2B since Joe Morgan.

 

[Please See Mine]

So on a lazy Sunday, I'm thinking of guys who've endured somewhat steep dropoffs from superstardom, these two guys popped in my head. Similar in many respects, switch hitters known more for their wheels than their power, both had controversies that colored them( Rock with the Rock, Robbie with the spit). The numbers are comprable, but I'm curious today, who do you think was the better player. Some stats:Raines:MVP in 87

 

[Utter Chaos]

So on a lazy Sunday, I'm thinking of guys who've endured somewhat steep dropoffs from superstardom, these two guys popped in my head. Similar in many respects, switch hitters known more for their wheels than their power, both had controversies that colored them( Rock with the Rock, Robbie with the spit). The numbers are comprable, but I'm curious today, who do you think was the better player. Some stats:

Raines:

ALL STAR MVP in 87

Speed: Raines >> AlomarOffense: Raines = Alomar

Defense: Alomar >>>>>>> Raines

Edge to Alomar.