Bibleguys - My Journey These Past Couple of Years (1 Viewer)

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yes, they do. And by bringing those practices with them, we were perpetrators of the same evil. I've done it too. But no longer, now that I understand their roots and that worshiping God in that way is not pleasing to Him.

Just to clarify, I'm pointing to the Roman church as the source of these problems, but the Protestants have been willing participants as well. 

Ok thank you, that's what I've been getting at. When you say 'the Church' in the modern context you mean all of modern Christendom. At least that's consistent even though I disagree with the 'evil' description to any and all. Obviously IMO Muslims and Jews in a sense fall within this context too when you get right down to in the sense that they too would be heretics and apostates.

 

[bueno]

I've looked at a number of concepts over the years, and have always tried to defend Christians for following their beliefs so long as they weren't convert or die types.

I have come to wonder though, whether the Creator is the same Deity that appeared to Abram is the same Deity that appeared to Moses or the same Deity that Saul (I think it was) made the official Deity of Judea. So when Jesus called out "Eli, Eli lama sabachthani?" I wonder who he was really calling to. 

The other issue I have is original sin: that man is essentially born evil. I tend to read the Bible or any other religious text as metaphorical in part. I have come to reject the concept of original sin for a more metaphorical one: that we are born with only instincts and have to be taught, often through trial and error, what is right and wrong. Therefore we are born neither inherently good or evil; we learn or choose to be one or the other. Thus in Abrahamic belief systems, acceptance of God's laws and in Christianity, acceptance of a savior is putting aside the instincts we are born with in favor of something that is inherently good.

Of course, there is the matter of receiving this law. Law that is Divinely ordained obviously would have more impact than the laws of men and are more likely to survive the death of the law-giver. Thus we have, starting about 4000 years ago, evolving folk myths about lawgivers. The more famous example, other than Moses and Jesus is Hammurabi, how received the law from the Sun God Shamash (who then became the God of Justice). Similarly Moses received the law from Yahweh, Mohammed from Allah, etc.  It's all more or less the same law.

 

[bueno]

He resurrected, duh

Or it's the worst alias in FBG history.

 

[CrossEyed2]

I would add to this, and ask CE which denomination/religion he feels most comfortable in now. 

What Christian denomination  was the church in which you were a pastor for 8 years? 

Do you feel that you were unintentionally evil during that time? 

Eta: I see you answered that second question already. 

I served in a conservative Baptist church and in a theologically similar non-denominational church. And yes, I was unintentionally leading people toward evil practices. For that, I have repented.

As for my current situation, we still attend an Evangelical Free church, but I'm honestly no longer comfortable there. I wish I could find a local group of like-minded individuals. There is a group that meets in a house about 45 minutes away from me. If it wasn't for my children I'd provably join that group. But I don't think it's a good fit for them at the moment. So I've continued to pray that He would lead me where He wants me. Still waiting for that answer. 

 

[CrossEyed2]

When you are ready, research Ugarit the El.[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]

I'm ready to go wherever I feel the truth is taking me. 

I actually did re-examine my belief in the Trinity. So nothing is off limits in my mind. And while I understand people's concerns about that doctrine, I'm still convinced that the Bible teaches that Yahshua is Yahweh incarnate. I still have questions and I'm open to suggested ideas/reading, but I'm not quite ready to dismiss Trinitarian beliefs at this point.

 

[cstu]

Jesus felt the pain and it was true, physical pain and then true physical death.

God felt the pain of watching his beloved son die an excruciating death.  Any parent should be able to see how that was a sacrifice.  

Makes zero sense, but if it makes you happy.

 

[CrossEyed2]

I think you are what could be called an 'expert' or professional and the rest of us (all of us?) are really amateurs, so I have to defer on almost any opinion you give on this stuff, so I recognize that.

However just IMO I always thought the Book of Sirach was always a big in the middle of the OT. Here's a teacher/rabbi named Joshua - called Jesus - who has teachings which are here and there pointed to in the NT. he created a whole school just 150-200 years before Jesus.  And it's canon in Christianity but not in Judaism (IIRC). It's those ghosts in the machine which fascinate me.

I'm honestly not familiar with Sirach. I'd have to do some reading on that one. 

 

[bueno]

I'm ready to go wherever I feel the truth is taking me. 

I actually did re-examine my belief in the Trinity. So nothing is off limits in my mind. And while I understand people's concerns about that doctrine, I'm still convinced that the Bible teaches that Yahshua is Yahweh incarnate. I still have questions and I'm open to suggested ideas/reading, but I'm not quite ready to dismiss Trinitarian beliefs at this point.

I will give you an analogy:

We perceive the Divine as if we are in a church staring at a stained glass window. The power behind that window is the sun, and our perception of the sun depends on the stained glass window. In the analogy, God is the sun, the stained glass window is our consciousness. So while we all feel the warmth of that same Divine, our perceptions of it are always different. It is only those who refuse to acknowledge the warmth that are truly lost.

 

[CrossEyed2]

I will give you an analogy:

We perceive the Divine as if we are in a church staring at a stained glass window. The power behind that window is the sun, and our perception of the sun depends on the stained glass window. In the analogy, God is the sun, the stained glass window is our consciousness. So while we all feel the warmth of that same Divine, our perceptions of it are always different. It is only those who refuse to acknowledge the warmth that are truly lost.

If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like some version of Universalism. I'm definitely not on that path. I still believe that there is only one true God, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

 

[bueno]

If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like some version of Universalism. I'm definitely not on that path. I still believe that there is only one true God, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

Then the sun is the one true god to you. The rest of us aren't looking through the same pane of that stained glass window, but we experience the same sun - the same true god.

 

[CrossEyed2]

Then the sun is the one true god to you. The rest of us aren't looking through the same pane of that stained glass window, but we experience the same sun - the same true god.

Still not sure I'm following what you are saying. Is this an "all roads lead to God" thing?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like some version of Universalism. I'm definitely not on that path. I still believe that there is only one true God, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

CE2, FYI I get absorbed in certain subjects and I got into this a few years ago. One of the things that interested me the most was the convergence of very similar Hebrew sounding names in the NT, especially these:

- Boanerges - or Sons of Thunder, but also Sons of Anger. These were James and John, also aka brothers of Jesus, and they were also called sons of Zebedee. This was also possibly translated through Greek as Ben Argus, essentially son of Father (i.e. Zeus, eg Argus in Greek pantheology was the son of Zeus). Zebedee is also possibly translated through Hebrew as 'gift of Yahweh (Father)'.

- Barnabas - variant on Son of the Father.

- Barsabas - also a variant on Son of the Father.

- Barabbas - also a variant on (wait for it) Son of the Father.

It's interesting to me given the roles these 5 played in the NT.

 

[bueno]

Still not sure I'm following what you are saying. Is this an "all roads lead to God" thing?

The God that appeared to Abram, then the one that appeared to him later as Abraham, Yahweh and Jehovah, are all aspects of the same Divine. Maybe. But then maybe they are all aspects of Ahura Mazda. I think it's great that you are seeing the metaphorical aspects of the Bible BTW. Keep seeking!

 

[Sconch]

Odd

 

[bueno]

This would be funny of your name was Metatron....

 

[bueno]

Not enough to show himself to people though.

Then it wouldn't be faith.

 

[matuski]

We perceive the Divine as if we are in a church staring at a stained glass window. The power behind that window is the sun, and our perception of the sun depends on the stained glass window. In the analogy, God is the sun, the stained glass window is our consciousness. So while we all feel the warmth of that same Divine, our perceptions of it are always different. It is only those who refuse to acknowledge the warmth that are truly lost.

Religion is fascinating.

 

[shader]

Makes zero sense, but if it makes you happy.

I'm honestly confused by what part makes zero sense? If you're not trolling, would you mind spelling it out in more detail than short cryptic sentences?

 

[Mister CIA]

When I crave to understand the meaning of life, I too rely upon the ancient synapses of illiterate goat herders and the physical words of self-righteous liars.

 

[wikkidpissah]

When you is behind goat, mister, you is being front of God. Come dissa way.

 

[Mister CIA]

Just ate gumbo with andouille and shrimp. See y'all in Hell.

 

[Captain Cranks]

I was wondering when the snark would go off from the atheist crowd.  I'm surprised it took you this long.  

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Every thread.  Every.  Thread.

It's like you have some kind of bat-signal or something.

 

[James Daulton]

I was wondering when the snark would go off from the atheist crowd.  I'm surprised it took you this long.  

Seriously.  If you choose not to believe that's fine, there are tons of threads available for you to express your non-belief.  This thread has mostly been reasonable debate between folks who largely think alike, absolutely no reason to ridicule or be douchie other than to just be douchie.

And I'm a non-believer in any formal religion. 

 

[cstu]

I'm honestly confused by what part makes zero sense? If you're not trolling, would you mind spelling it out in more detail than short cryptic sentences?

- God was born on earth and spent approximately 30 years living like anything other human in a middle class family

- Then spent approximately 3 years spreading his message

- Then spent one day being crucified with the ability to block out pain entirely

Where's the sacrifice?

 

[Captain Cranks]

And I'm a non-believer in any formal religion. 

I'm an atheist.  Sometimes the guys too smart to be religious are too dumb to know when to shut the #### up. 

 

[matuski]

Every thread.  Every.  Thread.

It's like you have some kind of bat-signal or something.

I wished him good luck... not sure what else you wanted?

I mentioned I find religion fascinating?  100% true.

You have found a way to read into something that isn't there.

eta - a lot of the older "fiercer" religious posters have found ways to challenge and change the way they look at their beliefs.. I think that is great. Cross, proninja, Commish....

 

[matuski]

Religion is fascinating.

There was no "snark" or sarcasm here.. I can understand how it may have seemed that way - but it wasn't meant so.

Part of the "bat signal" that draws me to these threads is my fascination with how people explain their religious beliefs, like the way bueno did.

 

[Arodin]

An all-powerful being cannot make an earthly sacrifice.  Seems self-evident to me.

Reading with interest, and regrettably nothing to add to the primary conversation.

But it appears that cstu doesnt see the inherrent contradiction in calling someone "all-powerful" and then insisting that they can't do something.

And it isn't just a "can God make a rock so big He can't lift it" sort of question.  Surely if an all-powerful being choses to endure pain and loss, and not wield that power to prevent it, that would be a deliberate sacrifice, no?  If only a sacrifice of the option to evade the pain.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

My eyes have been opened to so many of the lies around us. Lies in government, lies in science (which is primarily controlled by government) and lies in the church. I would say that I've discovered that most of what I used to believe as true, simply isn't. 

Which lies are these?

 

[(HULK)]

I wish the rest of the atheists would stop posting in here.  I read the post cause I'm always curious how people come to drastically different conclusions than I do.  That, and I figured someone from my "team" would drop a snark bomb at some point.  It's hard for us to not, please understand, we're a weird minority that has trouble reacting properly (but often the same can be said of the religious).

Anyways, good luck on your journey Crosseyed, wherever it takes you.

 

[Jayrok]

It's good to see you again, Crosseyed.  Been a long time.  Welcome back.  

 

[culdeus]

I think the dropout/burnout rate of theological seminary is actually quite high.  I always wonder that once you actually really study the faith you come to the conclusion that there are significant flaws, any number of which would invalidate the teachings you would purport to be gathering an income stream from.

100% anecdotal but the only two people I ever knew that went to seminary are now atheist and have no church interaction at all.  One quit, and one actually finished it.  Both would tell you they were not alone, that intense study on a scholarly level makes it very difficult to hold up.

I don't know if there are real studies out there on the topic, probably not. Something that would be quite difficult to accomplish.

 

[Jayrok]

I have come to believe that the Roman church was/is truly evil and that the reformers brought entirely too much of it into the Protestant churches. 

Our friend, Psychopav, isn't going to be too happy with this comment.  

 

[shader]

- God was born on earth and spent approximately 30 years living like anything other human in a middle class family

- Then spent approximately 3 years spreading his message

- Then spent one day being crucified with the ability to block out pain entirely

Where's the sacrifice?

Oh gotcha.  Well, yeah if Jesus was God, it makes no sense.  I'm with you there.

 

[shader]

There was no "snark" or sarcasm here.. I can understand how it may have seemed that way - but it wasn't meant so.

Part of the "bat signal" that draws me to these threads is my fascination with how people explain their religious beliefs, like the way bueno did.

I read Bueno's post a number of times and I'm still confused.  I'm also fascinated with how people can come to understandings of certain issues, even if I don't agree.  i find it a fascinating perspective, though I have no idea what it means.

 

[wikkidpissah]

I wish the rest of the atheists would stop posting in here.  I read the post cause I'm always curious how people come to drastically different conclusions than I do.  That, and I figured someone from my "team" would drop a snark bomb at some point.  It's hard for us to not, please understand, we're a weird minority that has trouble reacting properly (but often the same can be said of the religious).

Anyways, good luck on your journey Crosseyed, wherever it takes you.

Atheists. We gotta be atheists to disagree or point out the unlikelihood of 4000 yo agrarian myths being parsed across millenia and dozens of languages and iterations so any jackanape can feel like THEY got the better answer until you got 33,000 demoninations of the one true Christian faith, Looks like a game of Altars & Angels and CrossEyed's a level-5 Pharisee to me. Hey, i wish him and all y'all all the love in your life, peace in your hearts and rewards at the end that you can manage, but bring it to an open board? Expect some heat, legit and not. nufced.

 

[shader]

Reading with interest, and regrettably nothing to add to the primary conversation.

But it appears that cstu doesnt see the inherrent contradiction in calling someone "all-powerful" and then insisting that they can't do something.

And it isn't just a "can God make a rock so big He can't lift it" sort of question.  Surely if an all-powerful being choses to endure pain and loss, and not wield that power to prevent it, that would be a deliberate sacrifice, no?  If only a sacrifice of the option to evade the pain.

Well in fairness to cstu, if one is pushing the Jesus=God narrative, the whole thing makes no sense (in my opinion, and obviously in cstu's opinion).  How can the Creator of the universe feel pain, pray to himself, die, resurrect himself, how did the universe survive w/o God for 3 days, who really died, how can a part of a person die, how is it a fair ransom to go "do it yourself", etc.  Resorting to things like "God is all-powerful" doesn't really add to the conversation or help explain things.

I think the trinity doctrine is one of the most confusing doctrines ever to enter the Church, and it casts a huge mystery over the bible and makes it all seem more mysterious and mystical than it would be if the trinity were not true and God simply sent his powerful angelic son down to earth and then felt the true pain of a father watching his son go through an awful experience.

In one scenario, you see and feel the love that God had for his son, and you appreciate the sacrifice. Even though he resurrected Jesus 3 days later, any parent can realize that seeing your child go through an incredibly painful experience wouldn't be easy.  In fact, many atheists routinely criticize God for his test of Abraham as proof of God supposedly being a cruel God, despite the fact that Abraham knew God would have resurrected Isaac, and despite the fact that Abraham never actually went through with it.  It served as a beautiful illustration for the pain that God would later go through when Abraham's seed was put to death later on.  Abraham's heart was pure and he was willing to be obedient and do what God would later do and sacrifice his son.  Fortunately for him, he never really had to do it.

On the other hand, if God is Jesus, the whole thing becomes quite confusing and makes little to no sense at all, especially since I've found that trinitarians will often differ on what the trinity actually means.  My belief is that they differ on what the trinity means, because the trinity was never explained in the bible, but was explained by Catholic theologians.

 

[Jayrok]

As for the dietary laws, it's quite simple. The passages that A Christians point to for their dismissal aren't about the dietary laws. Read in context that becomes quite evident. 

I agree with this and have been saying it for years.  Despite being with Jesus and having directly received the Holy Spirit from Jesus, the disciples continued to observe the dietary laws long after the death of Jesus.  Passages such as in Mark 7 and Acts 10 are not about dietary laws.  

 

[Jayrok]

Like most things, there's a spectrum. I have friends who went to seminary and have left the faith, friends who went to seminary and work as pastors who I would consider very reasonable and open to any type of conversation, and one friend who went and got a phd that just ended up with him burrowing farther into fundamentalism. 

Same here.  I know several people who've had crisis of faith in seminary.  Our pastor is celebrating his 26th year at our church (which is remarkable in this day and time), and he told me how his beliefs have changed over the years.  The church is considered southern baptist but there are some topics that he won't preach on.  I've had discussions in his office from time to time and he once told me that he's afraid he'd be run off if he told the congregation he didn't believe in hell...at least a fiery literal hell.  Far from a fundy, he is open to any type of discussion.  

IIRC, our friend, Politician Spock, also attended seminary where he started having some issues.  I imagine he will find this thread soon and we'll hear from him.  

 

[shader]

I agree with this and have been saying it for years.  Despite being with Jesus and having directly received the Holy Spirit from Jesus, the disciples continued to observe the dietary laws long after the death of Jesus.  Passages such as in Mark 7 and Acts 10 are not about dietary laws.  

It's very interesting and something I haven't thought about.  That being said, the original disciples were all Jews, so it's very likely there were two things at play.  First, eating pork/shellfish may have been difficult in Jerusalem, as there wasn't a "market" for it, and it also was likely to be offensive to the Jews.  Second, if you've grown up your entire life thinking that pork is unclean and awful to eat, would you really change?  I mean, I doubt they desired that food.

But is there any scriptural evidence that the "people of the nations" that came in began to eat a Jewish diet?  I haven't seen any evidence of that.  In Acts 15, the circumcision issue came up, and the apostles discussed it and came up with their decision in Acts 15:28,29, I'd take that as evidence that the dietary practices weren't necessary any longer.  It could be argued that this issue was about circumcision, but I'd argue that they were in fact also referring to food by the fact that they talked about not eating blood, things strangled, etc.

 

[Jayrod]

I feel like I'm too late to this party and don't have time to delve into the little issues.

Keep searching CE, but be sure to pray.  The Holy Spirit is the key to finding truth.  As you are probably finding, it is easy to get lost in just study of scripture.  Anytime I'm stuck or struggling with a topic, prayer brings it back to what is important and true.

Ecc 12:12  "Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh."

 

[Godsbrother]

There are so many things in religion that make absolutely no sense to me.   I fully accept that if there is a God that I don't have much hope to understand His universe and at this point have pretty much given up trying.

In my opinion the Bible and similar "Holy" books are so ridiculous that I cannot see how an advanced being would choose such a goofy way to spread His word. The very fact that scholars have been arguing about them for thousands of years illustrates just how useless and poorly written they are.   I think trying to use them to understand God is about as useful as reading a cookbook to learn how to fix an automobile engine.  

But that's just my $0.02 -- I see no point in trying to convince anyone that their beliefs are any worse than mine.   

 

[Jayrok]

It's very interesting and something I haven't thought about.  That being said, the original disciples were all Jews, so it's very likely there were two things at play.  First, eating pork/shellfish may have been difficult in Jerusalem, as there wasn't a "market" for it, and it also was likely to be offensive to the Jews.  Second, if you've grown up your entire life thinking that pork is unclean and awful to eat, would you really change?  I mean, I doubt they desired that food.

But is there any scriptural evidence that the "people of the nations" that came in began to eat a Jewish diet?  I haven't seen any evidence of that.  In Acts 15, the circumcision issue came up, and the apostles discussed it and came up with their decision in Acts 15:28,29, I'd take that as evidence that the dietary practices weren't necessary any longer.  It could be argued that this issue was about circumcision, but I'd argue that they were in fact also referring to food by the fact that they talked about not eating blood, things strangled, etc.

I don't think they were tempted by pork or shellfish, for the reasons you mention here.  It was the meats available in markets that were sacrificed to idols they wanted to be careful to avoid.  Even otherwise clean meats, they still had to avoid depending on how the animal was killed.  

In Acts 15, it could be seen as a sort of compromise with regards to gentile believers entering the faith.  They were not expected to keep 100% kosher and follow all of the Mosaic laws like the Jews were required to do.  That was the point, imo.  The Jews kept kosher after Jesus came and went.  He didn't teach the laws were abolished.  

In other epistles, such as Galatians, we see evidence of some of the Jewish groups trying to say gentile believers had to be circumcised.  Paul fought against that.  And there's the compromise in Acts 15.  That compromise was for gentile believers, not Jewish members of the faith.  IOW, gentile believers weren't required to honor all 600+ Mosaic laws.  But they were asked to abstain from eating blood, meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.  

 

[perry147]

I hope you find happiness. Wherever that road takes you. 

 

[shader]

I don't think they were tempted by pork or shellfish, for the reasons you mention here.  It was the meats available in markets that were sacrificed to idols they wanted to be careful to avoid.  Even otherwise clean meats, they still had to avoid depending on how the animal was killed.  

In Acts 15, it could be seen as a sort of compromise with regards to gentile believers entering the faith.  They were not expected to keep 100% kosher and follow all of the Mosaic laws like the Jews were required to do.  That was the point, imo.  The Jews kept kosher after Jesus came and went.  He didn't teach the laws were abolished.  

In other epistles, such as Galatians, we see evidence of some of the Jewish groups trying to say gentile believers had to be circumcised.  Paul fought against that.  And there's the compromise in Acts 15.  That compromise was for gentile believers, not Jewish members of the faith.  IOW, gentile believers weren't required to honor all 600+ Mosaic laws.  But they were asked to abstain from eating blood, meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.  

My reading of that doesn't lend me to the same conclusion (that it was gentile believers only, not Jewish), but since the vast majority of Christians today are "gentiles", then if your reading is correct, the dietary laws wouldn't be necessary for us today.

 

[shader]

There are so many things in religion that make absolutely no sense to me.   I fully accept that if there is a God that I don't have much hope to understand His universe and at this point have pretty much given up trying.

In my opinion the Bible and similar "Holy" books are so ridiculous that I cannot see how an advanced being would choose such a goofy way to spread His word. The very fact that scholars have been arguing about them for thousands of years illustrates just how useless and poorly written they are.   I think trying to use them to understand God is about as useful as reading a cookbook to learn how to fix an automobile engine.  

But that's just my $0.02 -- I see no point in trying to convince anyone that their beliefs are any worse than mine.   

I think we are all well aware that people that don't believe in the bible have reasons for why they don't believe in the bible.  

 

[mr roboto]

Acts 10, Peters vision re:unclean foods?

 

[DocHolliday]

There are so many things in religion that make absolutely no sense to me.   I fully accept that if there is a God that I don't have much hope to understand His universe and at this point have pretty much given up trying.

In my opinion the Bible and similar "Holy" books are so ridiculous that I cannot see how an advanced being would choose such a goofy way to spread His word. The very fact that scholars have been arguing about them for thousands of years illustrates just how useless and poorly written they are.   I think trying to use them to understand God is about as useful as reading a cookbook to learn how to fix an automobile engine.  

But that's just my $0.02 -- I see no point in trying to convince anyone that their beliefs are any worse than mine.   

The first paragraph nails my thinking. 

I consider myself a Christian but have many doubts about God let alone Jesus and the gang.  I go to a Lutheran church these days but dislike organized religion more as each year passes.  I like the idea of church and the type of people that attend church.  My problem with church is that there is too much time spent discussing the struggles of the world and not enough time spent actually doing something about it.  I try to volunteer for as much community service as possible.  That is the part of church that makes me feel like I am actually making a difference.  Sitting at a church service on a Sunday morning every week does very little for me these days.   I got once or twice a month to make sure my daughter sees the good part of the community and is surrounded by positive, helpful people. 

I have become good friends with my pastor.  We share many of the same beliefs when it comes to organized religion.   During our candid discussions, I often tell him that his job is going to be nearly impossible in 10 years and will not exist in 25.  He does not deny that but wants to make a difference in the world.  That always pulls me back in to his world.   Christianity is terribly flawed but if people are organizing to help the less fortunate, I cannot help but sign up. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Acts 10, Peters vision re:unclean foods?

There was a struggle between the judaic/hebraic and hellenized/romanized early Christians, it's an open debate which camp Peter fell into, but my impression was that he leaned more to the traditional hebraic side with James whereas Paul was always clearly of the other.