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Bill Belichick Future - Will He Be Patriots 2023 Season Head Coach? (1 Viewer)

Will Bill Belichick Be HC Of Patriots For 2023 Season?


  • Total voters
    89

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
Wondering what you folks thought on this.

Last week, Colin Cowherd brought up Bill Belichick's future in New England and what Robert Kraft might be thinking.

In today's column, Peter King wrote something similar.
8. I think that game Thursday night said this to me: The Bills have become to New England what the Patriots were to Buffalo for two decades. Not to put Josh Allen on a Tom Brady But just in terms of football, the gap between Allen and Jones is worrisome for New England, and the talent gap between the depth of the Brandon Beane Bills and the Bill Belichick Patriots is big. That gap has led to the Bills winning the last three games in the series by an average of 19 points. Amazing to consider that the Patriots really aren’t close to Buffalo now. To triple-down on the differences between the two teams, consider how non-competitive that game felt. Buffalo was playing without two of its five most important defensive players, Von Miller and Micah Hyde, and still controlled the ball for 38 minutes. Midway through the fourth quarter, with the Bills up 24-7, New England, needing three scores, had the most painful, clunky drive imaginable—17 plays, taking almost six minutes, and getting just a field goal out of it. Six incompletions on the drive. When it was over, and Buffalo got the ensuing onside kick, Belichick didn’t even bother to use his three timeouts to try to get the ball back. He white-flagged the last two minutes. That’s how hopeless this felt.

9. I think Robert Kraft, who is 81 and will enter his 30th year of Patriots ownership in 2023, is not in this to rebuild deliberately. He has to be looking at the dung-show on the Patriots’ offensive staff and wondering why Belichick left the offense so wanting this year. Anyway, I can’t see anything weird happening this year. But I have my antennae up about the Patriots for 2023.

What do you think?
 

rockaction

Footballguy
Voted 90-99% yes. If, as King states -- and I agree -- Kraft isn't "in this to rebuild deliberately" then he won't fire Belichick. It seems that simple, actually. If you fire Belichick you admit you're starting from scratch.

It also seems Belichick gets a hall pass just for being Belichick. There's a lot of capital that Belichick plays with, and he's earned it.

The real question is how do they get Brady back next year? That's the delicious one.
 

JohnnyU

Footballguy
Voted 90-99% yes. If, as King states -- and I agree -- Kraft isn't "in this to rebuild deliberately" then he won't fire Belichick. It seems that simple, actually. If you fire Belichick you admit you're starting from scratch.

It also seems Belichick gets a hall pass just for being Belichick. There's a lot of capital that Belichick plays with, and he's earned it.

The real question is how do they get Brady back next year? That's the delicious one.
Why is the word fired being thrown around? That is ridiculous. It's not like the game has passed him by like it did Shula and Landry.
 

Mitchie

Footballguy
zero chance he gets fired that's absurd. Guy is still one of best coaches in the game. Their offense just isn't that good. Is it his fault they didn't bring in a competent OC? Yeah, but that can be rectified in the offseason.
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
It's not like the game has passed him by like it did Shula and Landry.
That's not fair to Shula, he didn't go 1-15, in fact he was run out of town by an overzealous new owner named Wayne Huizenga who was eager to hire Jimmy Johnson
Shula actually went to an AFCC during the '92'-'93 season and Buffalo was in the middle of a 4 year Super Bowl run from '90-'93?

So you take that back JohnnyU :rant:

;)
 
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Anarchy99

Footballguy
BB has a local weekly radio interview segment, and his future has come up several times. Bill has mentioned that he used to think there was no way he would coach until he was 70. Now that he has reached 70, he said he enjoys coaching more than ever, has no other passions in life, and he could see himself coaching until he is 80. Local folks have also spoken with Robert Kraft, who also has said they are lucky to have Bill, and that he essentially is welcome to stay as long as he wants. None of those types of interviews or conversations make it to the national spotlight. Reporters are there to stir the pot, get clicks or viewers, or provide hot takes. I don't see Bill wanting to go through a rebuild anywhere, nor do I suspect he will want to give up any control of a team (NE or otherwise). So I expect Bill will be 100% the head coach of NE as long as he wants to be. The Pats would not be getting a better coach with someone else.
 

Boston

Footballguy
I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything my guess is the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago they could fall further behind in a Division that is finally good...it will be fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.
 
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rockaction

Footballguy
the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey

This is very true. This is what I also thought, but wasn't going to go into if/then scenarios. The likelihood, to the nth degree, is that he's the coach in 2023.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
Not so sure how delicious he is now.

What's going on in Tampa isn't on him. I've watched their games. It's interior pressure mixed with Godwin still coming off of an ACL and Evans being banged-up/old. Their other options, like Gage and Julio Jones, are also unreliable and aging. Brady still has it. Still has that quick release. Maybe a touch -- and I mean a touch -- of diminished arm strength, but not by much at all, and certainly not something that affects him like the neck fusion surgery affected Manning as he got older.
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
BB has a local weekly radio interview segment, and his future has come up several times. Bill has mentioned that he used to think there was no way he would coach until he was 70. Now that he has reached 70, he said he enjoys coaching more than ever, has no other passions in life, and he could see himself coaching until he is 80. Local folks have also spoken with Robert Kraft, who also has said they are lucky to have Bill, and that he essentially is welcome to stay as long as he wants. None of those types of interviews or conversations make it to the national spotlight. Reporters are there to stir the pot, get clicks or viewers, or provide hot takes. I don't see Bill wanting to go through a rebuild anywhere, nor do I suspect he will want to give up any control of a team (NE or otherwise). So I expect Bill will be 100% the head coach of NE as long as he wants to be. The Pats would not be getting a better coach with someone else.

I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything my guess is the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago they could fall further behind in a Division that is finally good...it will be fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.

-It's hard to picture the Patriots going and getting a veteran QB but I bet a decent one and they have a couple more wins under their belt. It's very difficult to match QB personalities with Bill Belichick but I would imagine Jimmy G will be on a short list of names Belichick would like to bring in and mentor and possibly start. The Pats defense is pretty good and has played well much of the time this year.

-I always look forward to comments about the Pats by both of you, fairly unbiased and more in touch with what is happening. I understand you listen to local radio shows and get your tidbits there, but that's why I like to read these. I don't have time or access to those programs and you all bring a lot of information in here. And the proof is usually in the team results week to week.

Good stuff, both of you
 
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humpback

Footballguy
Not so sure how delicious he is now.

What's going on in Tampa isn't on him. I've watched their games. It's interior pressure mixed with Godwin still coming off of an ACL and Evans being banged-up/old. Their other options, like Gage and Julio Jones, are also unreliable and aging. Brady still has it. Still has that quick release. Maybe a touch -- and I mean a touch -- of diminished arm strength, but not by much at all, and certainly not something that affects him like the neck fusion surgery affected Manning as he got older.
Now do the Pats.
Any doubts about arm strength? This happened less than a year ago

~1 yr can be an eternity in 45 yo QB terms, just saying.

Brady is still pretty good, but he clearly isn't as good (nor should anyone expect him to be), and the Pats aren't good on offense. I don't see it happening, and if it does, I wouldn't expect them to compete in that division.
 

BassNBrew

IBL Representative
Wondering what you folks thought on this.

Last week, Colin Cowherd brought up Bill Belichick's future in New England and what Robert Kraft might be thinking.

In today's column, Peter King wrote something similar.
8. I think that game Thursday night said this to me: The Bills have become to New England what the Patriots were to Buffalo for two decades. Not to put Josh Allen on a Tom Brady But just in terms of football, the gap between Allen and Jones is worrisome for New England, and the talent gap between the depth of the Brandon Beane Bills and the Bill Belichick Patriots is big. That gap has led to the Bills winning the last three games in the series by an average of 19 points. Amazing to consider that the Patriots really aren’t close to Buffalo now. To triple-down on the differences between the two teams, consider how non-competitive that game felt. Buffalo was playing without two of its five most important defensive players, Von Miller and Micah Hyde, and still controlled the ball for 38 minutes. Midway through the fourth quarter, with the Bills up 24-7, New England, needing three scores, had the most painful, clunky drive imaginable—17 plays, taking almost six minutes, and getting just a field goal out of it. Six incompletions on the drive. When it was over, and Buffalo got the ensuing onside kick, Belichick didn’t even bother to use his three timeouts to try to get the ball back. He white-flagged the last two minutes. That’s how hopeless this felt.

9. I think Robert Kraft, who is 81 and will enter his 30th year of Patriots ownership in 2023, is not in this to rebuild deliberately. He has to be looking at the dung-show on the Patriots’ offensive staff and wondering why Belichick left the offense so wanting this year. Anyway, I can’t see anything weird happening this year. But I have my antennae up about the Patriots for 2023.

What do you think?
I think Peter King and Cowherd need hot takes to generate ratings and pad their wallets.
 

SoBeDad

Footballguy
The GM side has had some hits and misses which stand out more when you're not winning 11+ games every year and going deep in the playoffs. He'll coach until he passes Shula for sure - that's 19 wins and should be accomplished during the 2024 season.
 

NE_REVIVAL

Footballguy
I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago that could fall further behind...it will fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.
Spot on!

It's not the X's and O's, it's the total control over operations (draft, free agents, oc etc). Very real chance Kraft will insist on changes BB doesn't agree with and I believe the correct poll answer to be 50-59% range.
 

Boston

Footballguy
I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago that could fall further behind...it will fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.
Spot on!

It's not the X's and O's, it's the total control over operations (draft, free agents, oc etc). Very real chance Kraft will insist on changes BB doesn't agree with and I believe the correct poll answer to be 50-59% range.
Patricia is BB’s binky…he is also a horrible OC…no way he can continue in that role but what happens if BB insists on it?
 

habsfan

Footballguy
One of the negatives about the aging process is that you're not always able to see it clearly or accurately. Is he able to objectively and accurately give himself a "report card" at the end of each season and then take real action to address the Cs and Ds? It doesn't appear that way thus far and eventually that needs to change. The way to maintain overall control is to strategically relinquish some control.
 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
I voted 80-89%, but I'm really like at 85-89%. I could see BB deciding that he's done enough and doesn't need to stick around for a long rebuild. I'd be shocked to see Kraft make a change.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything my guess is the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago they could fall further behind in a Division that is finally good...it will be fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.
This has been discussed in other threads. Some of the current issues were brought on by the overall success of the organization. They have multiple coaches poached by other franchises, with multiple people moving with McDaniels to LV. Bill made his own mess by not replacing many of those folks with qualified coaches, but he almost always backfills position with people that have had some experience in his system. Historically, he does not want coordinators coming in with their own schemes, systems, or ideas. He wants someone that knows and will use Bill's plays and schemes. That keeps Bill as supreme sith lord and ultimate overseer, but it also limits any fresh perspective and other voices to get added into the mix. It's always been Bill's way or the highway.

I expect the coaching experiment to get scrubbed and someone like Bill O'Brien brought in as OC. Patricia will likely get kicked upstairs with a consultant or advisor title. Unfortunately, most of the free agents they brought in didn't pan out (Agholor, Smith, Bourne, Henry, Mills, Godchaux, etc.), but they should have additional cap room to try bringing in some others as reinforcements. Their recent drafts have been spotty . . . the two rookie Joneses have been contributors so far, and it's to soon to evaluate Thornton. But Cole Strange was not the best use of their first-round pick.

Who knows if they have anything to work with in Mac Jones, but I would suggest their biggest issue (of many) is their OL is a mess. Barmore and Stevenson have been contributors from last year's draft. Uche, Duggar, and Onwenu have been solid from the draft before that. But the bigger issue in drafting has been that when they miss, they REALLLLLLY miss. Harry, Keene, Asiasi, Joejuan Williams, Cajuste, Winovich, Jennings, and Perkins were all Top 100 picks that have done about as close to nothing as you can get.

People this week are reacting to a poor performance against the Bills, but that all got off on the wrong foot with injuries to the OL. They had to start Ryan McDermott at tackle (essentially a special teams player that rarely has played for NE), had no choice but to play Trent Brown (who was out sick with the flu and didn't practice all week), and they literally had no other experienced bodies available. They played the same five O-lineman every snap against BUF because they had no one else. Yes, there are 1,001 other issues with NE . . . but the line being a shambles was their biggest issue against the Bills. Mac Jones hasn't played very well, but the OL certainly hasn't helped him any.

PFF grades show the defense to be pretty good. They have 10 guys rated in the 70's, but on offense, the only players that score 70+ are Stevenson 85.2, Onwenu 81.6, Harris 78.0, Meyers 76.1, Andrews 70.6, and Parker 70.1. Pretty much anyone else on offense has been a liability.

As also discussed in other threads, the other AFCE teams all finally improved and are significantly better . . . something that none of them were able to do for 20 years. That has nothing to do with BB. And if the other three divisional foes had been able to do that in the Brady era, NE would not have had such a sustained run. NE fans and sports media got so spoiled by winning every season, they forget that 50% of the league struggles to win consistently or make the playoffs (and when they do it's for a brief timeframe). Put another way, lots of other franchises would be overjoyed to be 6-6 and a game out of a playoff spot. But in NE, anything but another championship is considered a lost season.
 

Boston

Footballguy
The more interesting question to me is whether the Pats stick with Mac Jones or move on to a more capable QB - maybe Jimmy G comes back?

It won't matter if Patricia is the OC...the other issue is unless it comes via the draft a new QB would most likely put a much bigger dent in the cap than Mac (i.e. not sure they want to use their cap space on Jimmy G)...I won't rule anything out though but my guess is they bring in a competent OC (probably Bill O'Brien), have the QB position be an open competition in camp with Mac, Zappe and possibly a third more of a longshot contender than ride that out for 2023.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
The more interesting question to me is whether the Pats stick with Mac Jones or move on to a more capable QB - maybe Jimmy G comes back?
IMO, if NE fixes their OL and get an OC, Jones would go back to how he played last season. We can debate what that means, but Jones with protection was fine against the Vikings the week before (382/2/0/120 rating). Put another way, if Tom Brady was still around, NE would look like they did at the end of 2019, Tom would be griping about everything, and the team would still be struggling to play .500 football.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
Put another way, lots of other franchises would be overjoyed to be 6-6 and a game out of a playoff spot. But in NE, anything but another championship is considered a lost season.

It's the way they're losing, I think. They have some deep fundamental flaws where they'll never be a contender with the current make-up of the club. That's why there's despair there. They're so far behind the Chiefs and the Bills that they've been lapped.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
Put another way, if Tom Brady was still around, NE would look like they did at the end of 2019, Tom would be griping about everything, and the team would still be struggling to play .500 football.

This seems highly unlikely and overstating it. Of course, I know you've been on the "who needs Brady?" tip ever since he left, but it's a shortsighted opinion and likely an inaccurate one. His last year there, they didn't even have anybody of Jakobi Meyers's current stature (he was on the team but wasn't in full flight then) or even an Agholor or Bourne and they were 12-4. I mean, how much better do you want? They've improved since then at other positions, and you're saying they'd be .500?

That seems to me to be an obviously myopic point of view.

And this isn't to say Meyers is great. But they had nobody.

eta* They had Edelman. A glorified slot guy like Meyers, but a bit better than Jakobi. So there's that. But 12-4.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
The more interesting question to me is whether the Pats stick with Mac Jones or move on to a more capable QB - maybe Jimmy G comes back?

It won't matter if Patricia is the OC...the other issue is unless it comes via the draft a new QB would most likely put a much bigger dent in the cap than Mac (i.e. not sure they want to use their cap space on Jimmy G)...I won't rule anything out though but my guess is they bring in a competent OC (probably Bill O'Brien), have the QB position be an open competition in camp with Mac, Zappe and possibly a third more of a longshot contender than ride that out for 2023.
I know we are getting a bit removed from the thread topic, but I don't think it's Jones' fault that Patricia was calling three-yard routes on 3rd and 12, running draws, or sending out 5 receivers on deep routes when Jones had 1 second to get rid of the football. Jones certainly hasn't played well at times, but a lot of the issues have stemmed from no creativity in the offense, poor play calling, and a Swiss cheese OL.
 

Boston

Footballguy
I don't think many understand the complexity of this situation...Coaching-wise BB is still solid although I will say they are nowhere near as fundamentally sound as they once were...the issue with BB is he is not just the Coach, he runs everything football related and right now he is average to subpar in the non-coaching areas and things have to change there or they will continue to be stuck in neutral...this is where things could get very dicey...the Pats need to overhaul their front-office as well as make big changes to their coaching staff (which includes family, close friends and yes men)...if this does not happen they are doomed...since BB runs everything my guess is the only way it happens is if Bob or Jonathan Kraft lay the law down and not give him a choice about these changes and I just don't see that ending well as I don't see BB staying on as HC if he doesn't control all the other decisions...now, as pointed out BB has earned the right to stay on as HC and is still a very good Coach but there is far more to this situation than being a Coach...the Pats just cannot continue down the path they are on so something has to give here...they have a very good cap situation this offseason but if they repeat what they did a couple of years ago they could fall further behind in a Division that is finally good...it will be fascinating to watch what happens because I just don't see the Kraft's being OK with status quo because it is not going to work but I also don't see BB doing anything he doesn't want to do.
This has been discussed in other threads. Some of the current issues were brought on by the overall success of the organization. They have multiple coaches poached by other franchises, with multiple people moving with McDaniels to LV. Bill made his own mess by not replacing many of those folks with qualified coaches, but he almost always backfills position with people that have had some experience in his system. Historically, he does not want coordinators coming in with their own schemes, systems, or ideas. He wants someone that knows and will use Bill's plays and schemes. That keeps Bill as supreme sith lord and ultimate overseer, but it also limits any fresh perspective and other voices to get added into the mix. It's always been Bill's way or the highway.

I expect the coaching experiment to get scrubbed and someone like Bill O'Brien brought in as OC. Patricia will likely get kicked upstairs with a consultant or advisor title. Unfortunately, most of the free agents they brought in didn't pan out (Agholor, Smith, Bourne, Henry, Mills, Godchaux, etc.), but they should have additional cap room to try bringing in some others as reinforcements. Their recent drafts have been spotty . . . the two rookie Joneses have been contributors so far, and it's to soon to evaluate Thornton. But Cole Strange was not the best use of their first-round pick.

Who knows if they have anything to work with in Mac Jones, but I would suggest their biggest issue (of many) is their OL is a mess. Barmore and Stevenson have been contributors from last year's draft. Uche, Duggar, and Onwenu have been solid from the draft before that. But the bigger issue in drafting has been that when they miss, they REALLLLLLY miss. Harry, Keene, Asiasi, Joejuan Williams, Cajuste, Winovich, Jennings, and Perkins were all Top 100 picks that have done about as close to nothing as you can get.

People this week are reacting to a poor performance against the Bills, but that all got off on the wrong foot with injuries to the OL. They had to start Ryan McDermott at tackle (essentially a special teams player that rarely has played for NE), had no choice but to play Trent Brown (who was out sick with the flu and didn't practice all week), and they literally had no other experienced bodies available. They played the same five O-lineman every snap against BUF because they had no one else. Yes, there are 1,001 other issues with NE . . . but the line being a shambles was their biggest issue against the Bills. Mac Jones hasn't played very well, but the OL certainly hasn't helped him any.

PFF grades show the defense to be pretty good. They have 10 guys rated in the 70's, but on offense, the only players that score 70+ are Stevenson 85.2, Onwenu 81.6, Harris 78.0, Meyers 76.1, Andrews 70.6, and Parker 70.1. Pretty much anyone else on offense has been a liability.

As also discussed in other threads, the other AFCE teams all finally improved and are significantly better . . . something that none of them were able to do for 20 years. That has nothing to do with BB. And if the other three divisional foes had been able to do that in the Brady era, NE would not have had such a sustained run. NE fans and sports media got so spoiled by winning every season, they forget that 50% of the league struggles to win consistently or make the playoffs (and when they do it's for a brief timeframe). Put another way, lots of other franchises would be overjoyed to be 6-6 and a game out of a playoff spot. But in NE, anything but another championship is considered a lost season.

Agree and disagree about expectations...agree that expectations are ridiculously out-of-control...to expect to continue the Brady era without Brady and without a significant drop was just plain stupid...on the flipside it is very easy to see this team and especially their D is a paper tiger...when they play against a bad/average team and especially one with a subpar QB they will look good but the second they play against a good team they get exposed...in all honesty I would be happier if they were 4-8 but had a better core of youth where you could see light at the end of the tunnel but right now I see nothing but mediocrity for now and the future if they continue to operate the same way.

As for the O line it was average going into the year...Brown can play when he wants to but is unreliable, Wynn is average at best and that is being nice and while Strange could be a good one he has not lit the world on fire as a rookie and coming from a small school that is not a surprise...Andrews is legit but has a ton of miles on him and Mike O is solid...so while injuries have plagued them it was an average unit at best and no one should have been surprised with the injuries when Wynn and Brown have never been pillars of health...overall the issue here is Dante is no longer around to turn college wrestlers and UDFA into quality players...it is another area the organization has not done a good job filling.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
Put another way, if Tom Brady was still around, NE would look like they did at the end of 2019, Tom would be griping about everything, and the team would still be struggling to play .500 football.

This seems highly unlikely and overstating it. Of course, I know you've been on the "who needs Brady?" tip ever since he left, but it's a shortsighted opinion and likely an inaccurate one. His last year there, they didn't even have anybody of Jakobi Meyers's current stature (he was on the team but wasn't in full flight then) or even an Agholor or Bourne and they were 12-4. I mean, how much better do you want? They've improved since then at other positions, and you're saying they'd be .500?

That seems to me to be an obviously myopic point of view.

And this isn't to say Meyers is great. But they had nobody.
Well, Tampa is 5-6 currently and have Godwin, Evans, Jones, etc. for Brady to throw to. Just like NE, the Bucs have had problems with their injuries, OL, and play calling. I am pretty sure Godwin, Evans, and Jones trumps Parker, Meyers, and Agholor. Maybe Tom would have authority to tell Patricia to go pound sand and call his own plays. But Patricia calling plays with receivers not able to get open would be just as big an issue for Brady as Jones (assuming Brady had time to throw the football). The Bucs have allowed 18.5 ppg (vs. 18.8 allowed by NE). Even with the players I just listed, the Bucs only are averaging 18.2 ppg (vs. 20.8 for NE).

Since you brought up 2019, the Pats were exactly what they are today. They beat up on poor teams with inexperienced QBs and lost to good teams with established QBs. They lost to Lamar, Watson, Mahomes, Fitzpatrick, and Tannehill down the stretch and Brady looked spent. They had Edelman that year, who is better than anyone they have currently. They had some decent options that for one reason or another didn't pan out. Josh Gordon got suspended. They brought in Antonio Brown (who didn't last more than a game). They traded for Sanu (who got hurt in his first game). They had James White and Rex Burkhead. Sometimes things don't work out as planned.
 

Boston

Footballguy
The more interesting question to me is whether the Pats stick with Mac Jones or move on to a more capable QB - maybe Jimmy G comes back?

It won't matter if Patricia is the OC...the other issue is unless it comes via the draft a new QB would most likely put a much bigger dent in the cap than Mac (i.e. not sure they want to use their cap space on Jimmy G)...I won't rule anything out though but my guess is they bring in a competent OC (probably Bill O'Brien), have the QB position be an open competition in camp with Mac, Zappe and possibly a third more of a longshot contender than ride that out for 2023.
I know we are getting a bit removed from the thread topic, but I don't think it's Jones' fault that Patricia was calling three-yard routes on 3rd and 12, running draws, or sending out 5 receivers on deep routes when Jones had 1 second to get rid of the football. Jones certainly hasn't played well at times, but a lot of the issues have stemmed from no creativity in the offense, poor play calling, and a Swiss cheese OL.

I agree 100%...I also think he doesn't look as good as he did last year...and as you remember I was onboard with him pretty early.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
Well, Tampa is 5-6 currently and have Godwin, Evans, Jones, etc. for Brady to throw to. Just like NE, the Bucs have had problems with their injuries, OL, and play calling.

Tampa won a Super Bowl and was a Todd Bowles' brain cramp from going to one last year. Their OL sucks this year and their receivers are coming off of injury or hurt as we speak. Who cares how many points they've allowed, that's really irrelevant. It's apples and oranges.

Brady would have them at least at 7-5 or 8-4 right now, and it still kills NE fans to admit it.
 

SoBeDad

Footballguy
There will be lots of hoopla when BB breaks the coaching record of Halas and then Shula. I doubt that Kraft would want that to occur with another team. Maybe Brady evens attends those games as a guest.
 

Boston

Footballguy
Well, Tampa is 5-6 currently and have Godwin, Evans, Jones, etc. for Brady to throw to. Just like NE, the Bucs have had problems with their injuries, OL, and play calling.

Tampa won a Super Bowl and was a Todd Bowles' brain cramp from going to one last year. Their OL sucks this year and their receivers are coming off of injury or hurt as we speak. Who cares how many points they've allowed, that's really irrelevant. It's apples and oranges.

Brady would have them at least at 7-5 or 8-4 right now, and it still kills NE fans to admit it.

It doesn't kill anyone to admit it...everyone knows it.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
The more interesting question to me is whether the Pats stick with Mac Jones or move on to a more capable QB - maybe Jimmy G comes back?

It won't matter if Patricia is the OC...the other issue is unless it comes via the draft a new QB would most likely put a much bigger dent in the cap than Mac (i.e. not sure they want to use their cap space on Jimmy G)...I won't rule anything out though but my guess is they bring in a competent OC (probably Bill O'Brien), have the QB position be an open competition in camp with Mac, Zappe and possibly a third more of a longshot contender than ride that out for 2023.
I know we are getting a bit removed from the thread topic, but I don't think it's Jones' fault that Patricia was calling three-yard routes on 3rd and 12, running draws, or sending out 5 receivers on deep routes when Jones had 1 second to get rid of the football. Jones certainly hasn't played well at times, but a lot of the issues have stemmed from no creativity in the offense, poor play calling, and a Swiss cheese OL.

I agree 100%...I also think he doesn't look as good as he did last year...and as you remember I was onboard with him pretty early.
Even this year, Jones has shown flashes of productivity. He was great for 3 quarters against the Ravens (IIRC, 6 completions 20+ yards downfield) but then things went south. He was lights out against the Vikings the entire game until he took sacks in the last 90 seconds. He was patient and completed 85% of his passes with no turnovers against the Jets a couple of weeks ago. But he doesn't extend plays and looks like a deer in the headlights under pressure (ranked one spot higher than Zach Wilson under duress). The other issue will be if not Mac . . . then who? I am not sold on Zappe (for the Zappemania! clique).
 

Boston

Footballguy
The more interesting question to me is whether the Pats stick with Mac Jones or move on to a more capable QB - maybe Jimmy G comes back?

It won't matter if Patricia is the OC...the other issue is unless it comes via the draft a new QB would most likely put a much bigger dent in the cap than Mac (i.e. not sure they want to use their cap space on Jimmy G)...I won't rule anything out though but my guess is they bring in a competent OC (probably Bill O'Brien), have the QB position be an open competition in camp with Mac, Zappe and possibly a third more of a longshot contender than ride that out for 2023.
I know we are getting a bit removed from the thread topic, but I don't think it's Jones' fault that Patricia was calling three-yard routes on 3rd and 12, running draws, or sending out 5 receivers on deep routes when Jones had 1 second to get rid of the football. Jones certainly hasn't played well at times, but a lot of the issues have stemmed from no creativity in the offense, poor play calling, and a Swiss cheese OL.

I agree 100%...I also think he doesn't look as good as he did last year...and as you remember I was onboard with him pretty early.
Even this year, Jones has shown flashes of productivity. He was great for 3 quarters against the Ravens (IIRC, 6 completions 20+ yards downfield) but then things went south. He was lights out against the Vikings the entire game until he took sacks in the last 90 seconds. He was patient and completed 85% of his passes with no turnovers against the Jets a couple of weeks ago. But he doesn't extend plays and looks like a deer in the headlights under pressure (ranked one spot higher than Zach Wilson under duress). The other issue will be if not Mac . . . then who? I am not sold on Zappe (for the Zappemania! clique).

I am good with Mac getting another year but unless they bring in a solid OC they will continue to destroy him...while I was really high on him last year, I am starting to believe we need a better athlete back there...the game is changing, and the speed of the defenders is silly now...just not sure if Mac is a fit for where the game is going.
 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
Put another way, lots of other franchises would be overjoyed to be 6-6 and a game out of a playoff spot. But in NE, anything but another championship is considered a lost season.

It's the way they're losing, I think. They have some deep fundamental flaws where they'll never be a contender with the current make-up of the club. That's why there's despair there. They're so far behind the Chiefs and the Bills that they've been lapped.
Yep. They're already the fourth-place team in their own division, and they're stuck in neutral while the Dolphins and Jets are clearly trending up and the Bills seem to be in good shape for the foreseeable future. If Jones isn't the answer at QB -- and I don't think he is -- the Patriots have quite a lot of work in front of them.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
It doesn't kill anyone...everyone knows it.

Except for Anarchy99, who insists they'd be a middling, mediocre group at .500, just like they are now.
NE has lost to much better teams (MIA, MIN, BUF, BAL) and their defense did nothing in their loses to GB and CHI. Obviously Tom wouldn't help them win games they won anyway. Jones threw for nearly 400 yards against MIN . . . not sure Brady would better that performance. Justin Fields and the Bears ran for nearly 250 yards. Brady wouldn't change that. The Bills destroyed the Pats. Maybe that loss would have been closer. The defense allowed almost 300 yards of offense in the second half and OT against the Packers. Again, not a Brady issue. MAYBE the Pats could have beaten the Ravens (as the offense imploded with a ton of turnovers in the 4th quarter in that game). But I don't think the Pats today with Brady would be much different than they are without him.
 

Anarchy99

Footballguy
Put another way, lots of other franchises would be overjoyed to be 6-6 and a game out of a playoff spot. But in NE, anything but another championship is considered a lost season.

It's the way they're losing, I think. They have some deep fundamental flaws where they'll never be a contender with the current make-up of the club. That's why there's despair there. They're so far behind the Chiefs and the Bills that they've been lapped.
Yep. They're already the fourth-place team in their own division, and they're stuck in neutral while the Dolphins and Jets are clearly trending up and the Bills seem to be in good shape for the foreseeable future. If Jones isn't the answer at QB -- and I don't think he is -- the Patriots have quite a lot of work in front of them.
I think this gets us full circle to the biggest systemic issue with NE. What worked for them for years (strong defense, limit turnovers on offense, run the football, and let their opponents make mistakes) is no longer a viable strategy. Teams need to push the action, and a conservative approach on offense normally won't cut it. Jones with the other elements we have mentioned (an actual HC and a much better OL) would be good enough to win games against average to poor teams, but not in the same league as the Bills or Chiefs (and probably Dolphins). The offense needs to be able to score in the 30s and the Pats need to be able to have games where the defense allows 28 points and still win the game. Right now, they can't usually get into the 30's and any game they allow over 17 points is essentially a loss. I posted the other day that NE's record is whatever-and-1 since 2019 in games they allowed 17 or fewer points and terrible in games when they allow 18+.
 

Boston

Footballguy
Put another way, lots of other franchises would be overjoyed to be 6-6 and a game out of a playoff spot. But in NE, anything but another championship is considered a lost season.

It's the way they're losing, I think. They have some deep fundamental flaws where they'll never be a contender with the current make-up of the club. That's why there's despair there. They're so far behind the Chiefs and the Bills that they've been lapped.
Yep. They're already the fourth-place team in their own division, and they're stuck in neutral while the Dolphins and Jets are clearly trending up and the Bills seem to be in good shape for the foreseeable future. If Jones isn't the answer at QB -- and I don't think he is -- the Patriots have quite a lot of work in front of them.
I think this gets us full circle to the biggest systemic issue with NE. What worked for them for years (strong defense, limit turnovers on offense, run the football, and let their opponents make mistakes) is no longer a viable strategy. Teams need to push the action, and a conservative approach on offense normally won't cut it. Jones with the other elements we have mentioned (an actual HC and a much better OL) would be good enough to win games against average to poor teams, but not in the same league as the Bills or Chiefs (and probably Dolphins). The offense needs to be able to score in the 30s and the Pats need to be able to have games where the defense allows 28 points and still win the game. Right now, they can't usually get into the 30's and any game they allow over 17 points is essentially a loss. I posted the other day that NE's record is whatever-and-1 since 2019 in games they allowed 17 or fewer points and terrible in games when they allow 18+.

Holding teams to less than 17 points is not a sane strategy in today's NFL...if it was it would probably make sense to have more than one legit high-end level defender.
 

NE_REVIVAL

Footballguy
The more interesting question to me is whether the Pats stick with Mac Jones or move on to a more capable QB - maybe Jimmy G comes back?
IMO, if NE fixes their OL and get an OC, Jones would go back to how he played last season. We can debate what that means, but Jones with protection was fine against the Vikings the week before (382/2/0/120 rating). Put another way, if Tom Brady was still around, NE would look like they did at the end of 2019, Tom would be griping about everything, and the team would still be struggling to play .500 football.
If Tom brady were around, A. Brady would be correct to gripe about the crap BB has put out there again. B. The OL and OC issues would still exist but would be mitigated by Brady's experience and talent. Nope not SB contender, not with the drafts and FA moves BB as been making for years but Brady covered a lot of that up and were he still there they would be a better team. Brady aint coming back and it's all water under the bridge. Its now about BB having total control and not having an elite qb around to cover the warts and whether or not Kraft makes a move to reign in BBs power to the point where BB retires or finds a better situation for himself.

To believe that Kraft or fans like myself are unhappy only because of their 6-6 record this yr is not fair. BBs questionable FO moves have been going on many years now and rumblings from ownership did not appear out of thin air this year.
 
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Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
BB has a local weekly radio interview segment, and his future has come up several times. Bill has mentioned that he used to think there was no way he would coach until he was 70. Now that he has reached 70, he said he enjoys coaching more than ever, has no other passions in life, and he could see himself coaching until he is 80. Local folks have also spoken with Robert Kraft, who also has said they are lucky to have Bill, and that he essentially is welcome to stay as long as he wants. None of those types of interviews or conversations make it to the national spotlight. Reporters are there to stir the pot, get clicks or viewers, or provide hot takes. I don't see Bill wanting to go through a rebuild anywhere, nor do I suspect he will want to give up any control of a team (NE or otherwise). So I expect Bill will be 100% the head coach of NE as long as he wants to be. The Pats would not be getting a better coach with someone else.

Thanks. What do you think is the general level of satisfaction with the team?

Specifically, how they appear to be lost on offense?

How is it seen locally with Patricia?
 

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
It's the way they're losing, I think. They have some deep fundamental flaws where they'll never be a contender with the current make-up of the club. That's why there's despair there. They're so far behind the Chiefs and the Bills that they've been lapped.

That's how it seems to me. I think we all accept a significant part of the Patriots dynasty was the weak state of the Division. For sure, they had to deliver in the biggest games, and they obviously did, but they often faced an optimal path.

Now, when they look around, they appear light-years behind. And I don't know how they make it up.
 

Boston

Footballguy
BB has a local weekly radio interview segment, and his future has come up several times. Bill has mentioned that he used to think there was no way he would coach until he was 70. Now that he has reached 70, he said he enjoys coaching more than ever, has no other passions in life, and he could see himself coaching until he is 80. Local folks have also spoken with Robert Kraft, who also has said they are lucky to have Bill, and that he essentially is welcome to stay as long as he wants. None of those types of interviews or conversations make it to the national spotlight. Reporters are there to stir the pot, get clicks or viewers, or provide hot takes. I don't see Bill wanting to go through a rebuild anywhere, nor do I suspect he will want to give up any control of a team (NE or otherwise). So I expect Bill will be 100% the head coach of NE as long as he wants to be. The Pats would not be getting a better coach with someone else.

Thanks. What do you think is the general level of satisfaction with the team?

Specifically, how they appear to be lost on offense?

How is it seen locally with Patricia?

Wasn't directed at me but will answer about Patricia...it is anger...it is anger because everyone knew it was a horrible idea and reports the second camp began were awful and have continued...no one but BB is surprised by this...if he had hired Caley and it did not work out there would still be groaning but more understanding because you gave a young guy a chance but instead you put the development of your QB in the hands of a failed HC who was a DC (and not an overly popular one here by the way) who has never had responsibilities like this before...add in the fact you have your son running the D and it is one big slumber party.
 

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