What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Bills and Toronto games (1 Viewer)

Bri

Footballguy
G.O.A.T. Tier
Anyone know what happenned with the state/town vote?

I saw quite a few articles that it would be voted upon but no followup

If ya don't know what I mean-Long story short- Wilson wants to play a preseason game in Toronto and then the following year a regular season game in Toronto. He's trying to expand his fanbase. Bills lease specifies # of games at home so they need permission to play one outside of Orchard Park.

 
I don't know about the vote, but I just came across the argument for expanding the fan base a minute ago. So, I'll add it here:

Bob DiCesare: Border push can only help save Bills

By Bob DiCesare

Updated: 10/19/07 7:54 AM

SAVE EMAIL PRINT POPULAR Digg it del.icio.us + Larger Font Google Yahoo - Smaller Font

Here’s the cold, hard fact of the matter: The Bills can’t survive long term on Buffalo alone.

The economics, both locally and NFLwide, are weighted against the franchise. Once the team becomes part of Ralph Wilson’s estate the highest bidder will prevail. Unless someone with Buffalo ties is willing to pay an astronomical premium to keep the team here — try $300 million over local market value, its roundabout worth in cities such as Los Angeles and San Antonio — the likelihood of the Bills remaining in Buffalo is little more than nil.

But what if the Bills extend their regional reach? What if the team leaps international boundaries and plays to the huge corporate base that is Toronto? Maybe luxury boxes become in greater demand. Surely new marketing opportunities abound. The more revenue the franchise generates, the lesser the financial disparity between the Bills and the large-market teams. The premium required to keep the team here diminishes. The chances of the Bills remaining in Buffalo improve.

News that the franchise might play a preseason game in Toronto next year and a regular-season game there on an annual basis shouldn’t be construed as Buffalo’s worst fears come to life. Instead, it’s the city’s best hope put into action, the extension of the ongoing plan to leverage the franchise’s geographic situation. It’s an attempt to fortify the team’s finances by targeting untapped sources. And, like it or not, it’s all we’ve got.

Remember, Commissioner Roger Goodell grabbed a seat squarely on the fence when discussing the future of the franchise during his appearance at the Monday night game. Keeping the Bills in Buffalo is our priority and nobody else’s.

So this all makes sense. The NFL’s globalization plan calls for teams to play outside the country twice within 16 years. Nothing is gained from the Bills appearing in say, Frankfurt and Madrid. Toronto is a land of opportunity. The Bills are right to angle for a presence just over the border, proactive in requesting international games that could grow the team’s Canadian fan base, particularly at the corporate level.

It’s not as alarming as it may seem. The risks are no greater than the risks already at hand. Yes, the franchise might ultimately shift to Toronto or anywhere else.

Yes, parceling out games, particularly regular-season games, threatens to infuriate and alienate the core market of Western New York. But if Buffalo is adamant about retaining its franchise then denial gets us nowhere. The financial chasm must be reduced, some way, somehow, in a place where exorbitant public payrolls bloat tax rates and repel businesses, thereby thinning the life blood of an NFL franchise. Reaching out to Toronto is good for Bills business, and what’s good for business is good for Buffalo in its efforts to keep the Bills.

Where the franchise erred was in its failure to come clean with the fan base before the story broke in Thursday’s editions of The News. The Toronto scenario hit like a bombshell because the franchise inexplicably found it unnecessary to inform the public that talks were in progress. The team should have detailed the whys of its plan right from the outset and of its own volition. Releasing a brief written statement after the news had leaked and refusing to take follow-up questions only heightened the jitters of Buffalonians fearful of losing their franchise.

Nonetheless, this is a course dictated by necessity. If the Bills are to remain here they must be deemed a worthy investment. And for that to happen revenues must be enhanced. Bringing Toronto into the picture opens the door to that possibility and certainly trumps the devastating alternative.

bdicesare@buffnews.com

 
Lots of chatter here that local business men (i think the same guys who own the raptors) would be willing to spend $1 billion to get the Bills to Toronto.

Don't know if it will ever happen but lots of people want it.

 
Lots of chatter here that local business men (i think the same guys who own the raptors) would be willing to spend $1 billion to get the Bills to Toronto.Don't know if it will ever happen but lots of people want it.
The Leafs own the Raptors.
 
Don't know much about the Toronto/Buffalo dynamic but I can't believe corporations in Toronto would really want to spend lots of $$$ on luxury boxes in a mediocre stadium in a dead city 90 minutes away. Just doesn't make much business sense.

The clear solution is moving the team to Toronto and I hope it happens when Wilson is gone.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
How many fans are they currently getting from Canada? I thought it was a decent amount but maybe not? I know ~20% comes from Rochester.

I'd love Gollasono to buy them; but I haven't heard anything substantial that he's interested.

 
I think it's a great idea. The idea could be expanded to Minnesota/Winnipeg, Seattle/Vancouver, and Detroit/Windsor or Hamilton.

However, isn't there this teeny, tiny little problem of the NFL respecting the CFL market? Since Toronto is a CFL city, wouldn't that be verboten? :confused:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think it's a great idea. The idea could be expanded to Minnesota/Winnipeg, Seattle/Vancouver, and Detroit/Windsor or Hamilton.However, isn't there this teeny, tiny little problem of the NFL respecting the CFL market? Since Toronto is a CFL city, wouldn't that be verboten? :confused:
well they want it tooThe only thing that seems to be standing in the way is the vote by the state and/or city.NFL coming to town would bring some travelers and $ into the city so it's not so unrealistic despite the argonauts presence. One game is just one game
 
Don't know much about the Toronto/Buffalo dynamic but I can't believe corporations in Toronto would really want to spend lots of $$$ on luxury boxes in a mediocre stadium in a dead city 90 minutes away. Just doesn't make much business sense.The clear solution is moving the team to Toronto and I hope it happens when Wilson is gone.
Why? How does having Buffalo play in Buffalo affect you. As a footbal fan, I never want to see a team leave their city. I was disgusted when the Colts moved, the Browns. Not trying to be a jerk, but why do you hope it happens when Wilson is gone?
 
If they wanted to spread good football, the Argonauts should play a game in Buffalo.....
Who would want to see the Argonauts in Buffalo anyway. They can't even sell 20000 to an Argo's game in TorontoThe Argonauts and Hamilton Tigercats may both fold if the NFL comes to Toronto. Without 2 teams in central Canada, the CFL cannot exist. I live closer to Boston ( in Nova Scotia) than Montreal or Toronto and could care less if there's a CFL. The CFL may have ties to fans from Montreal to B.C but there is no alligience to anywhere east.IN a related note I will be seeing my first live NFL game with some friends in 2 weeks in Tampa....I would never consider this for a CFL game unless it was in my home city.
 
Toronto thinks it's too good for the CFL and the rest of Canada. They'd drop the CFL in a second.

I think this is the Wilson family's way of telling Buffalo "I think we should see other people" whether they move it or sell it.

The only other explanantion is that apparently the NFL will be putting a regular season Broncos-Pats game in a CFL stadium next year. Rumour is the current frontrunner is Edmonton, home of the Eskimos. Moving a Buffalo game to Toronto might have been something Toronto appraoched Wilson about.

 
Don't know much about the Toronto/Buffalo dynamic but I can't believe corporations in Toronto would really want to spend lots of $$$ on luxury boxes in a mediocre stadium in a dead city 90 minutes away. Just doesn't make much business sense.The clear solution is moving the team to Toronto and I hope it happens when Wilson is gone.
Why? How does having Buffalo play in Buffalo affect you. As a footbal fan, I never want to see a team leave their city. I was disgusted when the Colts moved, the Browns. Not trying to be a jerk, but why do you hope it happens when Wilson is gone?
Well the move certainly seemed to work for the INdy Colts and Baltimore Ravens
 
Don't know much about the Toronto/Buffalo dynamic but I can't believe corporations in Toronto would really want to spend lots of $$$ on luxury boxes in a mediocre stadium in a dead city 90 minutes away. Just doesn't make much business sense.The clear solution is moving the team to Toronto and I hope it happens when Wilson is gone.
Why? How does having Buffalo play in Buffalo affect you. As a footbal fan, I never want to see a team leave their city. I was disgusted when the Colts moved, the Browns. Not trying to be a jerk, but why do you hope it happens when Wilson is gone?
Sorry, I really meant I hope it's Toronto and not LA. Toronto seems like a city that's ready, willing, and able to support a team so why not move the Bills there and then Buffalo natives can still follow their team. As a Saints fan, I certainly understand the fear of losing an NFL franchise. It would be horrible if they moved to LA.
 
I can't see it happening. All but 1 stadium in the NFL seat at least 63k, so the stadium in Toronto which only has around 50k seats will be too small IMO, and after spending $600m when they built the Skydome, I can't see them building another stadium any time soon.

Also, once the Canadian dollar drops below par, they will stop talking about coming to Canada.

 
I can't see it happening. All but 1 stadium in the NFL seat at least 63k, so the stadium in Toronto which only has around 50k seats will be too small IMO, and after spending $600m when they built the Skydome, I can't see them building another stadium any time soon.Also, once the Canadian dollar drops below par, they will stop talking about coming to Canada.
When and not if Toronto realizes its dream of getting an NFL franchise they'll built a new stadium. they'd play in the SyDome till a stadium is built. This is a pin-##### on their ###.A drop in the Canadian dollar could be an issue, however it should remain strong based on very strong exports and the weakness of the US dollar. This wont be an issue for a number of years.The CFL will carry on with or with out Toronto, its a weak market anyway. The thing about the Toronto area is that its far and away the largest media market with the largest population (there must be about 7 million people in the area) which advertisers covet. Regardless, It would be similar to the absence of the NFL in LA.
 
valhallan said:
Don't know much about the Toronto/Buffalo dynamic but I can't believe corporations in Toronto would really want to spend lots of $$$ on luxury boxes in a mediocre stadium in a dead city 90 minutes away. Just doesn't make much business sense.The clear solution is moving the team to Toronto and I hope it happens when Wilson is gone.
Why? How does having Buffalo play in Buffalo affect you. As a footbal fan, I never want to see a team leave their city. I was disgusted when the Colts moved, the Browns. Not trying to be a jerk, but why do you hope it happens when Wilson is gone?
Sorry, I really meant I hope it's Toronto and not LA. Toronto seems like a city that's ready, willing, and able to support a team so why not move the Bills there and then Buffalo natives can still follow their team. As a Saints fan, I certainly understand the fear of losing an NFL franchise. It would be horrible if they moved to LA.
I can honestly say as being a Bills fan of over 25 years, if the Bills move to Toronto, they will lose 99% of their fans. It would be like taking the "Buffalo" out of Chicken Wings, the beer out of Chippewa Street, and the soul out of the city. Plus, who the heck wants to deal with the Peace Bridge at 8 in the moring on game days? On the LA side, being a "new" resident out here, I would be torn. I finally get a franchise within an hour, and they're my former team......please God, don't make me have to choose that.
 
I can't see it happening. All but 1 stadium in the NFL seat at least 63k, so the stadium in Toronto which only has around 50k seats will be too small IMO, and after spending $600m when they built the Skydome, I can't see them building another stadium any time soon.

Also, once the Canadian dollar drops below par, they will stop talking about coming to Canada.
so I guess that wil rule out any other franchises in other places like Mexico City as well...
 
I think it's inevitable that Toronto gets a team sooner rather than later. Such a large market left untapped - it makes too much sense for the league, and the owners who will be swimming in revenue. No one believed it could happen but all the signs are there.

Local talk radio has been discussing it 24/7 and specifically it's impact on the survival of the CFL.

 
I can honestly say as being a Bills fan of over 25 years, if the Bills move to Toronto, they will lose 99% of their fans.
I see this as a mathematic impossibility. As over 1% of the Bills fans live in Toronto, and are wanting the franchise to move to their hometown.If toronto gets a team, hopefully Vancouver can get one too. :excited:
 
If they wanted to spread good football, the Argonauts should play a game in Buffalo.....
They're still somewhat sloppy, but they're 2 last second FGs away from being 4-2 that would have included wins over Denver, Dallas and Baltimore. Losses are losses so they are what they are, but I'm not sure that the Bills are as bad as people think they are.
 
The Buffalo Bills officially announced their plans to play eight games in Toronto on Wednesday.

Bills owner Ralph Wilson Jr. and communications mogul Ted Rogers were among the officials on hand at a news conference at the Rogers Centre to announce plans for the games.

The NFL club revealed they will play five regular-season games and three pre-season contests over the next five years, with Toronto Argonauts season-ticket holders getting guaranteed and priority access to the first 20,000 tickets before they go on sale to the general public.

A ticket lottery will be used for the general public, with fans having to enter an online registration to secure admission to the games

Argonauts' CEO Michael (Pinball) Clemons views the games as an opportunity to promote the Canadian game.

''We at the Argos see this as an added value to an already great season ticket package,'' Clemons said.

"Furthermore, if this opportunity exposes more people to the great game of three down football, through the sale of more Argos season tickets, that's good news for the CFL. One of the primary goals of the Argonauts' organization is to grow the sport of football in the GTA, and this opportunity will expose more Torontonians to our sport.''

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell already confirmed last week the league will allow the Bills to play in Toronto, though the NFL reserves the right to choose dates and opponents.

The Bills will play one regular-season game at the Rogers Centre each year from 2008-2012 and play pre-season games in 2008, 2010 and 2012.

The deal arises from the team's perennially poor ticket sales for mid-to-late December, when the temperature drops and the snow begins to fall in Buffalo.

The Rogers Centre, being a domed facility, seemed a natural alternative.

The arrangement also signals the Buffalo club's intention to exploit the southern Ontario market, which has a fan base of more than five million people compared to 1.25 million in western New York.

An estimated 10,000 to 15,000 Canadians already attend each Bills home game at Ralph Wilson Stadium, which has a seating capacity of 73,967.

The CFL's Hamilton Tiger-Cats, which were reported to be in on the agreement, announced Monday they won't participate.

"Bringing NFL games to stadiums in Canada without a comprehensive agreement between the CFL and the NFL will lead to unintended consequences — not all of them good," Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young said in a statement.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/story/20...ls-tickets.html

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Toronto has the worst fairweather fans in the universe and other than the Maple Laughs, they only support teams that win. Just ask the Blue Jays. They can't even fill half of Skydome most of the time. If the NFL came to Toronto it'd be a novelty for a couple of years then they'd only pack the stadium in years that they were contending. The rest of the time it'd be Arizona North.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Toronto has the worst fairweather fans in the universe and other than the Maple Laughs, they only support teams that win. Just ask the Blue Jays. They can't even fill half of Skydome most of the time. If the NFL came to Toronto it'd be a novelty for a couple of years then they'd only pack the stadium in years that they were contending. The rest of the time it'd be Arizona North.
Every city has its share of fairweather fans, and i dont think Toronto's is abnormally large compared to anywhere else. Teams like Pittsburgh, Colorado(Denver), Kansas City, Baltimore, and Oakland all had less average attendance than the Blue Jays did, and none of those cities had any problem selling out their NFL games. The comparison between the MLB and NFL is not very good to say the least.
 
Last edited:
Toronto has the worst fairweather fans in the universe and other than the Maple Laughs, they only support teams that win. Just ask the Blue Jays. They can't even fill half of Skydome most of the time. If the NFL came to Toronto it'd be a novelty for a couple of years then they'd only pack the stadium in years that they were contending. The rest of the time it'd be Arizona North.
And you live where?? I'm in the burbs of Toronto and I'd think that WHEN Toronto gets an NFL team, corporate dollars will always make their new digs (after they build something new to seat 65-70K) turn into a sell out most if not all the time, unless of course the average ticket price is going to be around $200-$250 a game, as it appears to be for this Bills package. I spoke to someone in the know last Sunday at a Super Bowl party that is on the Rogers Center committee and without getting into too much details he thinks it will fly sooner or later. He did pass on that there will be SOME tickets going on sale that will be just under the $200 per ticket mark and that you don't have to pay up front the $2000 for the entire package.As for the fans being fair-weathered, baseball is the only one that people don't go out to see. Both Leaves and Raptors have sellouts all the time. Unfortunately the Jays are in the MONEY division where they have to compete against the top two franchises with very deep pockets. You'd think that fans would go to those games at least but they don't. I'm not sure the main reasons why. Baseball a boring sport? I was a season ticket holder with a group of guys for the Jays for like 7-8 years but in 1992 when they traded for Rickey Henderson on the trading deadline, I was ticked off so much that I didn't buy into the playoff tickets nor did I stay with the group. I didn't like the move as well as I wanted them to make the "other" move which was supposed to be a trade involving Randy Johnson. So since then I haven't bought a Blue Jay ticket.No matter what, it's safe to assume I feel that when Mr Wilson passes on, the team will be up for sale and that Ted Rogers who has deep pockets himself will put in a big bid on them. So unless Jim Kelly, Thumas Thomas and others combine to buy the team I see it moving, perhaps and hopefully to Toronto.
 
I was a season ticket holder with a group of guys for the Jays for like 7-8 years but in 1992 when they traded for Rickey Henderson on the trading deadline, I was ticked off so much that I didn't buy into the playoff tickets nor did I stay with the group. I didn't like the move as well as I wanted them to make the "other" move which was supposed to be a trade involving Randy Johnson. So since then I haven't bought a Blue Jay ticket.
Not for nothing dude, but (1) Ricky was acquired in 1993, and (2) boy were you wrong...because if you didn't buy playoff tickets, it means you missed seeing this in person...Well hit down the left field wall...

Good call... :kicksrock:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Got this today regarding seats. Not sure how affordable just the single regular season game in Toronto will be, as I wont be buying an 8 game package.

Congratulations!

You have been selected from our random draw and can now be a part of NFL and Canadian sports history by purchasing Bills Toronto Series tickets. Your priority access begins at 12pm EST on Wednesday, June 4. Your access will expire at 12pm EST on Tuesday, June 10.

You will want to purchase in the first two days of your access, as tickets have been selling extremely fast. All tickets are on a first come, first served basis. Others who have this same access will have equal chance to buy the best seats, so if you are interested, don't delay. Tickets start at $55 each per game (based on 8-game package).

Here's a simple reminder of how to purchase standard tickets ($55-$295, depending on the package).
 
I had a code for this past week, starting Wednesday at noon. There certainly were no ticket options for $55 tickets. The cheapest was $180 and the system could not find any. The prices are ridiculous.

 
With the $55 option you still have to buy a 3-game package plus admin fee = $180. Problem is those seats are all sold out already. So are the next few up on the price list. The cheapest seats left are $270 per seat, min 3-game package plus admin fee = $880

I'm afraid my wife would make me sleep at the stadium if I tried to buy those tickets...

These Bills games will all sell out as of the end of this campaign, with a handful more tickets made available shortly before each game. Not only are the Bills making out like bandits with these ticket prices, they are selling out 8 games over the next 5 years right now. CRAZY!!!

 
Im afraid to even think of what scalpers will get for the toronto game. It will be worse then the leafs in playoffs - if you can remember that far back...

 
Ah, thanks for the clarification Kruppe. I thought they were selling 500 level at $180 per ticket per game. At $55 each I would have bought them. Anyway it doesn't matter. I was on right at the start time and they were sold out. I did get a chance to buy lower level seats, they were 30 rows up facing the back corner of the end zone, for $295 per ticket per game.

I understand there was a presale for Rogers employees. I know someone who is 10 rows up center end zone, and paid $140 per ticket through that deal.

 
The Bills fans and players are getting robbed - they totally lose their late season home field advantage. They will play Atlanta in the Skydome - how ridiculous - this game should be outdoors, the falcs should be miserable, and the Bills' fans and players should enjoy making teams play there late in the year.

What's more Bills players always seem deflated by the experience, they don't seem to do very well in TO.

I'm guessing this is an NFL thing but the Bills organization must have cooperated somewhere along the way.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Bills fans and players are getting robbed - they totally lose their late season home field advantage. They will play Atlanta in the Skydome - how ridiculous - this game should be outdoors, the falcs should be miserable, and the Bills' fans and players should enjoy making teams play there late in the year.

What's more Bills players always seem deflated by the experience, they don't seem to do very well in TO.

I'm guessing this is an NFL thing but the Bills organization must have cooperated somewhere along the way.
Thanks for that info. May start Matt Ryan now.

 
The Bills fans and players are getting robbed - they totally lose their late season home field advantage. They will play Atlanta in the Skydome - how ridiculous - this game should be outdoors, the falcs should be miserable, and the Bills' fans and players should enjoy making teams play there late in the year.

What's more Bills players always seem deflated by the experience, they don't seem to do very well in TO.

I'm guessing this is an NFL thing but the Bills organization must have cooperated somewhere along the way.
It is a calculated move by the Bills, in cooperation with the NFL, I assume.

The Buffalo market is, IIRC, the third-smallest metro market in the NFL, ahead of just Jacksonville and Green Bay, at around 1.2 million people. But what Buffalo does have is two other sizable metro areas within a short drive - Rochester (1.1 - 1.2 million, ~60-90 minute drive east) and Toronto (5.5 million GTA / total widespread pop. of ~12 million, ~2 hour drive north on a good day). Per Bills CEO Russ Brandon, on any given Bills home game Sunday, approx 17-19% of the fans in the stadium are from Rochester, and 17-19% from Toronto**; that is, ~35-40% of the people in the crowd do not live in the Buffalo metro.

Because of this, the Bills have attempted extensive rebranding in the past decade or so to market themselves as a regional team. They have tried to position themselves not just as Buffalo's team, but as Western New York's and Southern Ontario's team. And to a certain extent, it's worked, given the 35-40% numbers above. But the ultimate fact is that Toronto is a vast untapped market right in the Bills backyard. Ticket prices to Leafs games are 5x the price of Sabres games. There is a large corporate fanbase that doesn't mind shelling out big $ for suites (something the Bills struggle with).

In agreement for putting the game in Toronto, Rogers (the communications company) buys every ticket to resell - this is my understanding. The Bills have a guaranteed sellout without doing anything - Rogers purchases every ticket, the game is on TV in the Buffalo metro without any risk of a blackout, etc. And I'm guessing Rogers pays more to the Bills than the Bills actually make on a home game at the Ralph, because ticket prices are inflated.

But from a gameday atmosphere, it sucks. Many of the real Bills fans don't bother going...the tailgating atmosphere supposedly sucks, and ticket prices are insanely high...especially when these same fans can just drive to Buffalo for a game anyway. So the crowd ends up being a lot of corporate sponsors and general football fans who don't really care about the Bills or <insert opponent> and just want to see a game. And the Bills players say that the atmosphere is totally deflating. But the NFL is a business, and if 1 game in Toronto per year is what the Bills need in order to remain a team....ok.

** ETA - when I say "Toronto", I really mean to say Southern Ontario. St. Catharines, Hamilton, Burlington, Fort Erie, etc. in addition to the GTA.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
As a former Torontonian, Ill be first to say the Bills in Toronto games are trash.

When we want out fix, we all go over the border. Can basically travel, eat, drink in Buffalo for the price of a Toronto game

 
As a former Torontonian, Ill be first to say the Bills in Toronto games are trash.

When we want out fix, we all go over the border. Can basically travel, eat, drink in Buffalo for the price of a Toronto game
This is why Sabres/Leafs games tend to be 50/50 in the crowd. It's so much cheaper for Leafs fans to make the drive to Buffalo than it is to go to a game at the ACC. Add in the fact that it's probably quicker for fans in, say, St. Catharines to get to Buffalo than it is to Toronto, and it's a no-brainer.

 
As a Toronto resident, I've been going to Sabres games for years since Leafs tickets have been priced out of the average fans price range for ages now.

The " Bills in Toronto " games have been awful to watch since the teams and games have been mediocre and meaningless. Add in the grossly over-priced ticket price and its no wonder Rogers has trouble even giving away tickets.

As mentioned above, Rogers has paid the Bills a wack of cash for these games. The long rumoured assumption, are that these games are a " trial balloon" for a future move to Toronto, once Ralph Wilson croaks. If that is the case, the verdict thus far, has been fail.

On the ticketmaster website, as of last week, you could get a row of 8-seats in nearly every section.

 
vs. Falcons and chance to see Julio Jones looked like it might be worthwhile back when the schedule came out. I went last year and was so discouraged by the Bills lack of effort against the Seahawks, I didn't fall for it this year. Glad I passed. Bills players seem to treat this game worse than a road game. Maybe it will be different with the new coaching staff and QB. One can only hope.

Think I saw it is the Beach Boys at halftime. Seriously? Thats awful.

 
Wow. I never really paid attention to the "Bills in Toronto" games enough to know how bad the situation is and how poorly the team has plays. Is the effect on the Bills so bad that you would consider not playing them against ATL this week? It sure seems like a great matchup, other than it being in toronto.

 
The Bills fans and players are getting robbed - they totally lose their late season home field advantage. They will play Atlanta in the Skydome - how ridiculous - this game should be outdoors, the falcs should be miserable, and the Bills' fans and players should enjoy making teams play there late in the year.

What's more Bills players always seem deflated by the experience, they don't seem to do very well in TO.

I'm guessing this is an NFL thing but the Bills organization must have cooperated somewhere along the way.
It is a calculated move by the Bills, in cooperation with the NFL, I assume.

The Buffalo market is, IIRC, the third-smallest metro market in the NFL, ahead of just Jacksonville and Green Bay, at around 1.2 million people. But what Buffalo does have is two other sizable metro areas within a short drive - Rochester (1.1 - 1.2 million, ~60-90 minute drive east) and Toronto (5.5 million GTA / total widespread pop. of ~12 million, ~2 hour drive north on a good day). Per Bills CEO Russ Brandon, on any given Bills home game Sunday, approx 17-19% of the fans in the stadium are from Rochester, and 17-19% from Toronto**; that is, ~35-40% of the people in the crowd do not live in the Buffalo metro.

Because of this, the Bills have attempted extensive rebranding in the past decade or so to market themselves as a regional team. They have tried to position themselves not just as Buffalo's team, but as Western New York's and Southern Ontario's team. And to a certain extent, it's worked, given the 35-40% numbers above. But the ultimate fact is that Toronto is a vast untapped market right in the Bills backyard. Ticket prices to Leafs games are 5x the price of Sabres games. There is a large corporate fanbase that doesn't mind shelling out big $ for suites (something the Bills struggle with).

In agreement for putting the game in Toronto, Rogers (the communications company) buys every ticket to resell - this is my understanding. The Bills have a guaranteed sellout without doing anything - Rogers purchases every ticket, the game is on TV in the Buffalo metro without any risk of a blackout, etc. And I'm guessing Rogers pays more to the Bills than the Bills actually make on a home game at the Ralph, because ticket prices are inflated.

But from a gameday atmosphere, it sucks. Many of the real Bills fans don't bother going...the tailgating atmosphere supposedly sucks, and ticket prices are insanely high...especially when these same fans can just drive to Buffalo for a game anyway. So the crowd ends up being a lot of corporate sponsors and general football fans who don't really care about the Bills or <insert opponent> and just want to see a game. And the Bills players say that the atmosphere is totally deflating. But the NFL is a business, and if 1 game in Toronto per year is what the Bills need in order to remain a team....ok.

** ETA - when I say "Toronto", I really mean to say Southern Ontario. St. Catharines, Hamilton, Burlington, Fort Erie, etc. in addition to the GTA.
Unfortunately not enough people really care about the Bills in Toronto. The NFL is huge here, but most people already have their teams - largely the Pats, Giants, Steelers, Niners in addition to the Bills. Unless the Bills were to permanently move here or unless we had a team of our own, there's no reason for most NFL fans in TO to suddenly switch allegiances to the Bills, or even to care about their games. There also is little incentive for casual sports fan/non NFL fans to come out and watch a team that is not ours, especially at $100 a pop. Maybe things would change if the Bills were better and their games mean something, but unfortunately that has not been the case.

Also, Toronto is not like London where you would have to fly 6 hrs to watch the NFL live - we can easily drive 2 hrs to Buffalo or fly an hour to a host of cities to accomplish that.

 
Buffalo Bills: Jon Bon Jovi conducts stadium feasibility study for Toronto area The study identified at least three potential stadium sites — two in Toronto, including one on the waterfront, and another in the suburb of Mississauga.BUFFALO, N.Y.—A Buffalo Bills prospective ownership group that includes rocker Jon Bon Jovi has conducted a feasibility study into buying the NFL franchise and building a stadium in Toronto, a person close to the situation said.
The study identified at least three potential stadium sites — two in Toronto, including one on the waterfront, and another in the suburb of Mississauga —the person told The Associated Press on Thursday.
The person spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity because Bon Jovi and his partners, Larry Tanenbaum and the Rogers family, have not publicly revealed details of their plans to purchase the team.
Andy Bergmann, responsible for overseeing the Bon Jovi group’s stadium plans, confirmed Thursday in an email to the AP that his company has conducted stadium studies, “but nothing related to any specific site.”
“We have undertaken engineering and design studies,” wrote Bergmann, co-founder of Toronto-based Wessex Capital Partners, a growth equity investment firm that specializes in architecture, design and engineering services. “All of our work has been about a generic site and whether it was more rural or urban. We are aware of potential sites in the western N.Y. and southern Ontario region, and are in fact meeting with two Buffalo area developers next week.
“No feasibility studies have been undertaken on any site to date.”
Tanenbaum is chairman of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which controls the Raptors and Maple Leafs. The Rogers family includes Edward Rogers, deputy chairman of Rogers Communications, the Toronto-based communications giant.
The Bills are being sold following the death of Hall of Fame owner Ralph Wilson in March.
Under terms of the team’s lease with the state and county, the Bills — including Wilson’s estate — are not allowed to negotiate with anyone, who to their knowledge, has an intention of relocating the team before the end of the 2022 season, when the lease ends.
The feasibility study was commissioned about 18 months ago and overseen by an investment bank, the person said, adding that one of the stadium construction costs was between $800 million and $900 million (U.S.).
The Bon Jovi group has not said they would relocate the team, but Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz told the AP on Wednesday he has no doubt the group’s intentions are to move the Bills to Toronto.
“It is my personal opinion that any bid associated with the Toronto group has a long-term interest in moving the team to Toronto,” Poloncarz said, while attending Bills training camp in suburban Rochester, New York.
The Bills most recently were valued by Forbes at $870 million. They are projected to be sold for at least $1 billion, partly because NFL teams rarely go on the market.
John Vrooman, a Vanderbilt professor who specializes in sports economics, said feasibility studies are standard practice among prospective ownership groups and there should be no immediate cause for alarm. He said such studies evaluate expected cash flows and best- and worst-case risk factors based on location.
Vrooman projected the Bills to be valued at between $950 million and $1 billion in western New York, and about $1.5 billion if they moved to Toronto and even more in Los Angeles.
The Toronto group is represented by Goldman Sachs, and is one of at least 10 groups to have submitted a nondisclosure agreement form to Morgan Stanley, the banking firm overseeing the Bills sale on behalf of Wilson’s estate.
Among those also listed as returning their forms are Buffalo Sabres owners Terry and Kim Pegula and New York City real estate mogul Donald Trump.
The next step comes Tuesday.
That’s when prospective bidders must submit to Morgan Stanley what’s called “a first letter of indication,” which includes their initial and non-binding bid to purchase the team, said a person familiar with the sale process. The person spoke to the AP on the condition of anonymity because the sale process is private.
The person said the firm will review the bids and determine which prospective groups will be eligible to proceed to the next stage of bidding.
The list of remaining groups allowed to move forward is anticipated to be identified by the end of next week, the person said. Those groups will then be granted further access to the Bills financial date to better determine their bid.
It’s possible that a prospective owner could be identified by as early as late August, and be presented to NFL owners for approval during league meetings in early October.
http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/2014/07/24/buffalo_bills_jon_bon_jovi_conducts_stadium_feasibility_study_for_toronto_area.html

Got to say I hate this.

This group is really making noises like they have a legit shot at getting the Bills and then moving them.

I hope not. I realize how big and rich the city is but TO has shown nothing that it is deserving or capable of supporting an NFL team. Quite the opposite their reaction to the Bills games there have been tepid at best.

Meanwhile Bills fans have been among the most dedicated, longstanding and passionate and totally deserve to have and keep their team. I'm pulling for them.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Buffalo Bills: Jon Bon Jovi conducts stadium feasibility study for Toronto area The study identified at least three potential stadium sites — two in Toronto, including one on the waterfront, and another in the suburb of Mississauga.BUFFALO, N.Y.—A Buffalo Bills prospective ownership group that includes rocker Jon Bon Jovi has conducted a feasibility study into buying the NFL franchise and building a stadium in Toronto, a person close to the situation said.
The study identified at least three potential stadium sites — two in Toronto, including one on the waterfront, and another in the suburb of Mississauga —the person told The Associated Press on Thursday.
The person spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity because Bon Jovi and his partners, Larry Tanenbaum and the Rogers family, have not publicly revealed details of their plans to purchase the team.
Andy Bergmann, responsible for overseeing the Bon Jovi group’s stadium plans, confirmed Thursday in an email to the AP that his company has conducted stadium studies, “but nothing related to any specific site.”
“We have undertaken engineering and design studies,” wrote Bergmann, co-founder of Toronto-based Wessex Capital Partners, a growth equity investment firm that specializes in architecture, design and engineering services. “All of our work has been about a generic site and whether it was more rural or urban. We are aware of potential sites in the western N.Y. and southern Ontario region, and are in fact meeting with two Buffalo area developers next week.
“No feasibility studies have been undertaken on any site to date.”
Tanenbaum is chairman of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which controls the Raptors and Maple Leafs. The Rogers family includes Edward Rogers, deputy chairman of Rogers Communications, the Toronto-based communications giant.
The Bills are being sold following the death of Hall of Fame owner Ralph Wilson in March.
Under terms of the team’s lease with the state and county, the Bills — including Wilson’s estate — are not allowed to negotiate with anyone, who to their knowledge, has an intention of relocating the team before the end of the 2022 season, when the lease ends.
The feasibility study was commissioned about 18 months ago and overseen by an investment bank, the person said, adding that one of the stadium construction costs was between $800 million and $900 million (U.S.).
The Bon Jovi group has not said they would relocate the team, but Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz told the AP on Wednesday he has no doubt the group’s intentions are to move the Bills to Toronto.
“It is my personal opinion that any bid associated with the Toronto group has a long-term interest in moving the team to Toronto,” Poloncarz said, while attending Bills training camp in suburban Rochester, New York.
The Bills most recently were valued by Forbes at $870 million. They are projected to be sold for at least $1 billion, partly because NFL teams rarely go on the market.
John Vrooman, a Vanderbilt professor who specializes in sports economics, said feasibility studies are standard practice among prospective ownership groups and there should be no immediate cause for alarm. He said such studies evaluate expected cash flows and best- and worst-case risk factors based on location.
Vrooman projected the Bills to be valued at between $950 million and $1 billion in western New York, and about $1.5 billion if they moved to Toronto and even more in Los Angeles.
The Toronto group is represented by Goldman Sachs, and is one of at least 10 groups to have submitted a nondisclosure agreement form to Morgan Stanley, the banking firm overseeing the Bills sale on behalf of Wilson’s estate.
Among those also listed as returning their forms are Buffalo Sabres owners Terry and Kim Pegula and New York City real estate mogul Donald Trump.
The next step comes Tuesday.
That’s when prospective bidders must submit to Morgan Stanley what’s called “a first letter of indication,” which includes their initial and non-binding bid to purchase the team, said a person familiar with the sale process. The person spoke to the AP on the condition of anonymity because the sale process is private.
The person said the firm will review the bids and determine which prospective groups will be eligible to proceed to the next stage of bidding.
The list of remaining groups allowed to move forward is anticipated to be identified by the end of next week, the person said. Those groups will then be granted further access to the Bills financial date to better determine their bid.
It’s possible that a prospective owner could be identified by as early as late August, and be presented to NFL owners for approval during league meetings in early October.
http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/2014/07/24/buffalo_bills_jon_bon_jovi_conducts_stadium_feasibility_study_for_toronto_area.html

Got to say I hate this.

This group is really making noises like they have a legit shot at getting the Bills and then moving them.

I hope not. I realize how big and rich the city is but TO has shown nothing that it is deserving or capable of supporting an NFL team. Quite the opposite their reaction to the Bills games there have been tepid at best.

Meanwhile Bills fans have been among the most dedicated, longstanding and passionate and totally deserve to have and keep their team. I'm pulling for them.
Maybe its the fact that most Americans have no real knowledge of Canada or Canadians, but as I said in my previous post, the notion that we would not be hugely supportive of an NFL team and likely a top 10 market is an absolute fallacy.

We didn't support the Bills in TO because the ticket prices were ridiculous ($100 for the nosebleeds) and the fact that the Bills are Buffalo's team, not Toronto's. The Bills in TO started out ok, but when people here realized the games were all terrible and the Bills didn't want to be here, people stopped going.

Imagine if New Orleans didn't have an NFL team but Mobile, Alabama did, and because they had a team, they were preventing New Orleans from getting one. Then some media company makes a pact to have the Mobile team play once a year in New Orleans, charging ticket prices of at least $100/pop. Now imagine that this Mobile team isn't very good, their performances in New Orleans have been abysmal, all of the games have been against poor and unpopular teams, and they are playing in a baseball stadium. Would you pay $100/person to watch that?

There are more than 6 million people in the Greater Toronto Area. There are more dedicated, hardcore NFL fans here than the entire population of Buffalo. We just don't care about a bad team from a small town less than a tenth the size of our own, and from another country. Obviously, if we knew that team was eventually going to be our team, that would be a different story, but we aren't close to that point yet.

 
Curioius: how popular were the Bills in Toronto during the early 1990s?

Curious2: does splitting the distance between Toronto and Buffalo yield a feasible stadium site? Maybe between Hamilton and St. Catherines?

 
Curioius: how popular were the Bills in Toronto during the early 1990s?

Curious2: does splitting the distance between Toronto and Buffalo yield a feasible stadium site? Maybe between Hamilton and St. Catherines?
Bills were more popular here in the 90's than they are now, and were the biggest team here at that time. However, the NFL wasn't as popular then.

TV and Fantasy have really blown up football here over the last 20 years, at the expense of hockey (30+ years of Leafs futility despite $400/pop tickets will do that). The younger generation has grown up as fans of the Giants, Patriots, and Steelers, all of whom are winners and play on TV just as frequently as the Bills. Heck, I probably know more Eagles fans than Bills fans here, and they haven't even won anything, they just don't suck.

I think Toronto would still support the team if it were in Hamilton or Niagara, as long as it were called Toronto's team. The problem though is that Hamilton is an hour drive away and St. Catherines is 1.5 hr drive away at the best of times, and there is only one highway route to get there...meaning it would take over 2.5 hours to drive back and forth from any football games. I've also read that most people from Buffalo would have no interest in supporting the Bills if they left, so this would seem like an unnecessary concession.

The best thing would be for the NFL to expand to Toronto and allow Buffalo to keep the Bills. But for some reason the NFL ownership seems much more content with a Bills move to Canada than an expansion to Canada.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top