Ilov80s
Footballguy
Haven’t they been standing for the anthem for their entire lives? How long do they need to show respect your way before you can show them some respect their way?
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Black lives matter (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rascal
- Start date
matuski
Footballguy
A former Green Beret is the one that convinced Kap kneeling during the anthem would be the respectful way to do it.
So, apparently you are mistaken here.
Most people are when claiming absolutes.
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Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
They need to keep showing respect during the anthem. They can hold protests at the appropriate time and place, and others will respect that.
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
You are, because you aren't the one who gets to make this claim for everyone.
It is disrespectful IN YOUR OPINION... which I imagine doesn't carry much weight with others right now.
And again, arguing in absolutes is a surefire way to find yourself on the side of being wrong a lot.
eta - actually I like "to many" addition. It completely undoes the "always" part.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Protests don’t work unless they make some people feel uncomfortable. The kneeling is supposed to make people feel uncomfortable and think about uncomfortable things in our world. It doesn’t work so well if they are just standing in a park on a Saturday. We won’t ever agree and I do truly believe you are being terribly selfish and unwilling to put how you feelings aside for how other people feel. I am sure we at least agree that black lives matter and we can walk away with that one common ground from this thread.
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Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
It is disrespectful to many. Plain and simple. And always will be, which is my absolute. It is not the appropriate place to try to make a statement/protest. I support the right to protest, but during the national anthem is not the time or place.
Name one country that has acted with diginity for its entire history? You lose credibility with people when you kneel while an employee at work.
Jedi Knight
Footballguy
Overall, I support the BLM message, but I'm also in the camp of "Not during the Anthem". I think that by allowing that, you open the door for the next "important movement", and the next, and the next, until the playing of the anthem simply becomes a musical protest moment.
What if the NFL could provide 30 seconds of screen time on the jumbotrons following the anthem for the players to get their message across? To me, that would be far more impactful.
What if the NFL could provide 30 seconds of screen time on the jumbotrons following the anthem for the players to get their message across? To me, that would be far more impactful.
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
We won't agree; I'll agree with that. I feel you and others are being terribly selfish and disrespectful towards those that hold the national anthem, flag and veterans in very high regard, because you aren't respecting them and their feelings. The feelings aspect goes both ways and you can't ignore one set to appease another, especially when it comes to the anthem and it is supposed to be a time for respect. I do agree that black lives matter. I have always felt that way.
jamny
Footballguy
Thank you for this. Admittedly, as I get older I've found myself withdrawing from news and politics. More and more I just want to be left alone to live my life in peace. While I've never felt the need to counter with "all lives matter", it took a simple explanation like this of "Black lives matter" to make the phrase sink in and really give it meaning.
Sorry to edit out what else you posted but i just wanted to highlight this and thank you for it specifically.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I already touched on that in the post you are responding to. The issue is in expectations of some like Ketamine. He said you must always act with dignity towards the flag/anthem, but I asked what about when the country behind the flag/anthem does not? How come the country gets unlimited free passes? How come the flag/anthem must get respect at all times regardless? That seems one sided especially when you think about the harm caused by kneeling vs the harm caused by so many of the low points in our country.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Thanks for sharing. That makes my morning because it so often feels like so much time is spent just talking into a void.
Again, every country in the world has acted without dignity at times. It’s about course correcting. I don’t see the connection between the two points. If kap wants to be taken more seriously, he should find another way to communicate his points.
bostonfred
Footballguy
bigmarc27
Footballguy
The flag is a symbol of freedom, freedom of speech being one of those. The “many” need to get over it.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
It is disrespectful to me that you keep posting in this thread. Plain and simple, always will be. I support your right to have weird opinions, but this is not the time or place for you to share them. TIA
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Why is it not the right time? I don’t agree with his takes, but isn’t a little balance a good thing when having a conversation? Or are only those saying x, y and z allowed to voice their opinion at this time?
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
By that rationale, some (not me) felt kneeling during the anthem was disrespectful, therefore it is disrespectful. Correct?
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
That's what Ketamine Dreams seems to believe, I'm just asking him to show us the same respect.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I posted this in another thread but the protest should not piggy back on the NA or Flag but have its`s own avenue. It deserves its` own avenue.
When you tie in the NA be it right or wrong people think you are anti-military or anti-American and it distorts and bastardizes what the "real" protest is about and causes it to lose the actual message.
What that avenue is I don`t know. There are enough people involved now to be progressive and thoughts on how to protest and keep it on topic and track with what they are actually protesting. After one week of kneeling it was all about the NA and Flag and not the events that led to this and the message was sidetracked and lost.
When you tie in the NA be it right or wrong people think you are anti-military or anti-American and it distorts and bastardizes what the "real" protest is about and causes it to lose the actual message.
What that avenue is I don`t know. There are enough people involved now to be progressive and thoughts on how to protest and keep it on topic and track with what they are actually protesting. After one week of kneeling it was all about the NA and Flag and not the events that led to this and the message was sidetracked and lost.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Just think about this for a moment.
Imagine being afraid when you are in your car in a nice neighborhood, because someone reported that you "looked suspicious" or you "matched the description" of a suspectedncriminal. At any time, you could be pulled over for DWB, but not only that, you're at risk of getting arrested, tasered, or even killed.
Imagine that you, or your friends or neighbors, experienced police brutality and nobody did anything about it.m
Imagine being a victim of a crime, calling the police and they don't help.
Imagine having nobody to turn to. No elected officials taking up your cause. Feeling like the president is referring to you as a thug for nothing other than your skin color.
Imagine a football player making a peaceful protest to get attention for your issue, and despite it being controversial, you finally get some attention for this issue.
Imagine that protest starting a movement to stop what you believe to be injustice against you and anyone who looks like you.
Imagine that the largest civil rights movement in history, with all 50 states and 18 plus countries joining in protest.
Imagine that the president who spoke out against the peaceful protest at the anthem, speaks out even louder about these protests and talks about sending in tanks against his own people.
Imagine that many acts of apparent police brutality are filmed during the protests against police brutality.
From that perspective, not only does it seem insane that the guy who led the initial, peaceful protest lost his job and who knows how many millions of dollars for drawing attention to this issue, but it seems like he brought attention to it in the best of ways. Highly visible, and controversial, and bravely suffering the overwhelmingly negative feedback from people who don't want to feel "disrespected".
I can understand why it's important to respect the flag and the national anthem. But I also respect the act that got us to this point.
And it's looking increasingly likely that kids will someday graduate from Colin Kaepernick Memorial High School because of his simple act of civil disobedience.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I get that and do agree that it deserves it's own stage. But what stage? The issues of police violence and the struggles of inner cities have been ignored for so long. I've been talking to people and posting here for a decade about militarization of police, Obama's drone program in the ME, etc. People mostly ignored it or made excuses. The kneeling got people's attention finally. I think it also kind of revealed who was willing to hear black people out and who would just throw the flag and a song up as a shield to not have to hear them out. Anyone thinking the kneeling was protesting the military was just flat out refusing to listen.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
It is especially bizarre to me because the Founding Fathers made sure to protect the right to protest. This Country is built on protest. If the Founding Fathers were the respect the flag and authority at all times types, we would still be English colonies.
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wazoo11
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
Unfortunately the issue (especially at the time Kaep started this) was lost because of how it was done. People got wrapped up in the kneel or not kneel, disrespect or not disrespect, that it ended up completely diluting the reason he was doing it. It lost it's purpose because people started arguing about something else. That was the real disservice. Should he have kneeled or not kneeled? I don't know the right answer and it differs person to person. But what I do know is that by doing it that way it lost a lot of it's meaning because of the tangent argument it started.
So at this point, I think to improve support and meaning a different tact would lead to a greater benefit. It would remove the tangent argument which diminishes the message and will hopefully get the meaning back into the message.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I don`t know. Things evolve and move forward. Time for progressive minds to figure that part out.
As far as people not listening? If this forum is a microcosm of listening and understanding others views we are all doomed.
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
You might be confused, your feelings don't matter. I think it's disrespectful for you to post here, therefore it is. Please stop disrespecting me.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
See how ####### stupid that sounds?
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
You're not the arbiter of respect here.
You're attempting to dismiss the merits of an entire movement solely because some of its members did something that you felt was disrespectful -- even though the people doing it don't believe that it's disrespectful, even though many members of the military don't believe that it's disrespectful, even though millions of citizens don't believe that it's disrespectful. They haven't touched the flag, they haven't broken the law, they've barely infringed upon the oft-ignored flag code, and yet you have decided that they've completely forfeited the right to have their position heard.
That's astonishingly cavalier and self-righteous.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Freedom of speech in the right time and place and the message will be less offensive. Brees' comments were less offensive than those who disrespect the national anthem, flag and veterans.
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Wrong. Those who kneel dismiss the merits of an entire movement of people who respect the national anthem, the flag and veterans. They are the ones making the protest and are suddenly astonished that others don't support that??? THAT is cavalier and self-righteous.
[scooter]
Footballguy
You are being disrespectful.
Therefore, your argument is not worth hearing.
You must earn my respect before your point can be heard.
Good day.
bigmarc27
Footballguy
Well if we waited for the right time and the right place, we’d still be living under a Monarchy.
HellToupee
Footballguy
bigmarc27
Footballguy
In what way? It was quite inappropriate and appalling to throw that tea into the harbor. My goodness, the disrespect!
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the moops
Footballguy
Not the point of my comment. My comment is that because of the method used the message trying to be heard ended up getting mixed up in an unrelated argument that it lost a lot of it's voice. Instead of talking about the issue at hand the debate shifted to disrespecting the country/flag or not.
Much of the last page in this thread is about who is or is not disrespected by kneeling during the anthem that the purpose of the protest (police brutality) isn't even being discussed. That is my point.
Harry Manback
Footballguy
ITT: Lot's of snowflakes who had their fee fees hurt because someone didn't stand for a piece of fabric.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Sure, but the debate being shifted was very much intentional by the other side. Rather than discuss the merits of his complaints, they simply drowned it out by convincing a bunch of people to get riled up about something unrelated. Everyone knows his protest had nothing to do with the flag or the military, but they made the discussion about that on purpose. If it wasn't the National Anthem it would've been something else (e.g. if Kaepernick takes a knee on the first play of the game, he's disrespecting the fans who paid to see him play and the owners who pay his salary, etc.) It's not hard to distract stupid people.
Harry Manback
Footballguy
I've never heard a single person cry "disrespect" who wasn't overtly insecure and weak.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
So a handful of people kneeling destroy the merit of entire movement? Can we name a group or movement that has never had members show disrespect? Babies maybe? By this is idea that some ruin the whole, the Catholic Church, US military, police, Democrats, Republicans and a million more groups no longer have any merit.
bigmarc27
Footballguy
It was such an ingenious piece of misdirection when they turned the Kaep protests into the big disrepect. I can’t believe everyone bit on that so hard.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I understand your point. I just disagree that anything got lost.
People can talk about the disrespect for the anthem all they want. They're talking about it.
And that's why this is possible
https://imgur.com/gallery/EhVbOLW
Ilov80s
Footballguy
It’s biggest effect was showing who was willing to look at things from a different perspective and empathize with their Black American brothers and sisters vs. who were unwilling to hear them out. A lot of people got exposed on this imo.
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