Blount Disgustingly Hosed For Rookie Of The Year (1 Viewer)

[Bojang0301]

Pouncey was the first rookie C to make the Pro Bowl since 1955 and isn't even in the top 5 for rookie of the year.

That's because he was not one of the top 5 rookies this year.

Obviously everyone has an opinion, but I think a strong argument could be made for Pouncey as easily in the top 5.Pro Bowl has nothing to do with it but he is right in the mix for ROY.But to each their own.

I know I'll be called biased but Pouncey was more than just a vet from day one. The Steelers would not have won the division or went 12-4 without him. Are any of those others guys even on a playoff team let alone anchored a key part of it?

 

[Sebowski]

This is all very nice, but Haden and McCourty play the same position and McCourty had better numbers all around.

Hmm.. I guess..

Int  PD  FF  Sk  TkHaden	   6  18   1   1  57			McCourty	7  17   2   1  73

McCourty also started 16 games compared to Haden's 7.

Thx for saving me the time. Haden >>>>mccourty this year based on what he did in limited opportunity, lets move on. Suh should run away with th is with Bradford a close second.. All would have been behind Dez had he stayed healthy and continued to improve imo.

 

[southeastjerome]

Pouncey was the first rookie C to make the Pro Bowl since 1955 and isn't even in the top 5 for rookie of the year.

That's because he was not one of the top 5 rookies this year.

Obviously everyone has an opinion, but I think a strong argument could be made for Pouncey as easily in the top 5.Pro Bowl has nothing to do with it but he is right in the mix for ROY.But to each their own.

Pouncey allowed the 2nd most sacks for any center in the league and the 3rd most pressures. He was very good run blocking, but he was below average as a pass blocker.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Suh

 

[Phlash]

Pouncey was the first rookie C to make the Pro Bowl since 1955 and isn't even in the top 5 for rookie of the year.

That's because he was not one of the top 5 rookies this year.

Obviously everyone has an opinion, but I think a strong argument could be made for Pouncey as easily in the top 5.Pro Bowl has nothing to do with it but he is right in the mix for ROY.But to each their own.

I know I'll be called biased but Pouncey was more than just a vet from day one. The Steelers would not have won the division or went 12-4 without him. Are any of those others guys even on a playoff team let alone anchored a key part of it?

Devin McCourty is playing out of his mind this year. I haven't seen a cover corner like him in a Patriots uniform in a long time.

 

[treat88]

Pouncey was the first rookie C to make the Pro Bowl since 1955 and isn't even in the top 5 for rookie of the year.

That's because he was not one of the top 5 rookies this year.

Obviously everyone has an opinion, but I think a strong argument could be made for Pouncey as easily in the top 5.Pro Bowl has nothing to do with it but he is right in the mix for ROY.But to each their own.

Pouncey allowed the 2nd most sacks for any center in the league and the 3rd most pressures. He was very good run blocking, but he was below average as a pass blocker.

I hear ya and I've seen the metrics.I think it's very tough to isolate those OL numbers that specifically though. It's all interrelated and the G play on either side of him, hell all the way out to the T play, did him no favors in that kind of evaluation.Not going to derail the thread with a discussion of the merits of advanced metrics as it relates to OL play, but suffice it to say that I think it's a small piece of a larger puzzle by which any individual OLman should be evaluated.

 

[Fallerjw]

Although a center will never get the vote I think Maurkice Pouncey deserves to be mentioned.

Steelers line was in shambles, and while it's not a top-unit like it has been before it's been vastly improved thanks to the great play of their young and talented center.

As much as it pains me to admit, you guys couldn't be more right. Also, I love Haden and think he will be a very productive CB, but he's not even the best rookie on his own team. TJ Ward is a stud.

TJ Ward led all rookies in tackles (2nd place had 22 fewer), finishing 14th in the league overall.

 

[valhallan]

It's a surprisingly stellar rookie class.. and while I'm blown away by the production of Suh and McCourty, I just cant get over Sam Bradford throwing to ghosts on a previously 1-15 team and just barely falling short of the post-season. That's the most remarkable performance to me.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Personally i see this as a good thing...being that im franchising L.B im hoping this just adds to his fire...makes him want to prove everyone wrong about him...he runs angry and the angrier he is the better he is

 

[SteelerMurf]

Although a center will never get the vote I think Maurkice Pouncey deserves to be mentioned.

Yep, it is unbelievable that a pro bowl rookie center for a 12-4 team did not qualify as a finalist. STarted every game and played probably the best football of any offensive lineman on the steelers

 

[CompetitiveEdgeFootball]

Blount got kind of sucker punched by the league there.

 

[CompetitiveEdgeFootball]

I like it for Blount's career. From my very limited understanding of his personality, he'll probably be pissed about it, and it may serve as motivation.

The whole contest is really just a formality anyway. Suh became the unquestioned ROY to me when I watched him turn Delhomme into a twist-top soda bottle he was trying to get open in a preseason game. I see a mean streak that reminds me of the 70's Steelers defenses.

 

[Lash]

the problem is the culling to EXACTLY 5 finalists

why not 6 this season?

why not 4 during a season where there are only 4 good candidates?

 

[renesauz]

WOW. A rookie RB barely gets 1000 yards and you're upset he isn't a serious ROY candidate?

Take your glasses off.

 

[Demian]

Suh should win this going away but will probably get hosed.

 

[faulkfan]

WOW. A rookie RB barely gets 1000 yards and you're upset he isn't a serious ROY candidate?Take your glasses off.

He barely got 1000 yards after going undrafted and not starting until later in the season. He also led the league in rushing over the last 5 weeks so I think there is some foundation for thinking he deserved consideration.That said, I think the finalists are more than worthy themselves so I don't see any conspiracy here.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

WOW. A rookie RB barely gets 1000 yards and you're upset he isn't a serious ROY candidate?Take your glasses off.

Blount only started 7 games. He led all rookies in rushing yards, yards per game, yards per carry, and was 2nd in TDs. He was one of only 3 offensive players to win "Rookie Of The Month" honors. He was definitely a serious ROY candidate.

 

[Sebowski]

WOW. A rookie RB barely gets 1000 yards and you're upset he isn't a serious ROY candidate?Take your glasses off.

He barely got 1000 yards after going undrafted and not starting until later in the season. He also led the league in rushing over the last 5 weeks so I think there is some foundation for thinking he deserved consideration.That said, I think the finalists are more than worthy themselves so I don't see any conspiracy here.

Good points. Give him the Comeback Player of the Year award.

 

[Bri]

Blount was cut. /thread

 

[Premier]

Blount was cut. /thread

Wha?

 

[Bri]

Blount was cut. /thread

Wha?

http://www.kval.com/sports/local/102264209.html

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Blount was cut. /thread

Wha?

http://www.kval.com/sports/local/102264209.html

So? Is there a rule that says you can't win an award if you've been cut at some point in your past?

 

[Premier]

Blount was cut. /thread

Wha?

http://www.kval.com/sports/local/102264209.html

Oh, didn't realize that immediately disqualified him.

Tom Brady shouldn't win MVP this year either. Guy was a 6th-pick. Vick was #1 overall, clearly superior.

 

[Ilov80s]

Suh is already one of the 3 best players at his position so I think the other 4 people on this list better be ready to be just happy to be nominated.

I think this is WAY off base. ~And I'm a huge Suh/Husker fan.

I don't. I watched Suh every game this season and he was dominant. Double teamed constantly and still put up double digit sacks. IMO, he was the single biggest factor in the Lions improving to 6 wins and generally being competitive in almost every game. The Lions D-Line was the force driving the team and Suh was the dominant force driving it all.

I only caught three of their games this season and I have no reason to distrust you. But I also have every reason to trust the level of analysis that Pro Football Focus poured into their assessment of Ndamukong here. They do a very good job of explaining how a DT's responsibilities span far wider than the sacks he generates. Suh fell woefully short in many of those areas. He was NOT dominant. And I'm as big a fan of Suh as you'll find. He has an incredible career ahead of him.---------------

If we were starting a football team tomorrow, we’d probably find room for Ndamukong Suh on it. He’s got remarkable physical skills, makes big plays in every game, and certainly seems to have a bright future.

But what is Suh at this point in the year? Is he a hands-down Pro Bowler, deserving Defensive Rookie of the Year winner, and one of the league’s most dominant linemen?

Or is he the guy who rests in the bottom third of our defensive tackle rankings —and isn’t even in the top 10 at his unquestioned specialty, pass rush?

–

HE’S NOT A HALL OF FAMER YET

Let’s start to paint an accurate picture of the kind of season Suh is actually having, not the one most people think he is having or even the one that our naked ratings portray.

The first, and possibly most important thing to say about it is that Suh is clearly immensely talented, with massive ability. There’s a reason he was taken so high in the draft, and you can see it on tape immediately. There isn’t a game that passes in which he doesn’t make at least one play that showcases some special physical ability. Even in his latest outing against arguably the league’s best O-line, he managed to make Jets guard Brandon Moore look silly on a couple of occasions.

He is also being asked to play more snaps than any other defensive tackle in the league — 63.8 per game, which is more than any DT has averaged in any of our three seasons grading games.

But just because he pops up on highlights on a weekly basis doesn’t mean that there aren’t large portions of the game in which he is anonymous, or even worse, doing badly — getting handled by his blockers. Anybody telling you these periods and plays aren’t there, that Suh is above that, is wrong.

The obvious thing to say about Suh — far from unusual for a young player — is that he is very inconsistent. We have given him two very good grades this year, two pretty bad ones, and four that fall somewhere in the middle.

Suh has only put together one game where he’s been strong versus the pass and the run: the Week 3 game vs Minnesota.

Overall, he is much better against the pass than he is against the run, and most people know this. Some will ignore his play against the run when making the case for the great play of Suh in the same way that the blocking of Antonio Gates gets ignored when talking about his play. We’re not fans of that line of thinking. Gates may be comfortably the league’s best receiving TE, and that may be the biggest part of his job, but on 38.5 percent of his snaps this season he has been run-blocking. That’s a very large portion of plays doing something you’re very bad at. Too much for us to ignore and sweep under the carpet.

In Suh’s case, he’s being run at on 40.4 percent of his snaps and generally failing in that aspect of his game. We’ve heard people say that Jim Schwartz just wants to turn Suh loose and to a degree that’s true, but it certainly doesn’t explain it all away.

Albert Haynesworth was a force against the run and pass in the same role in the same D in Tennessee, and Jason Jones is currently our top-ranked DT doing the same thing there now. There are almost a dozen other DTs grading in the green both ways as well. You can see from watching linebackers play when a DT is being given the freedom to ignore a gap and pressure another one, because they will immediately react to fill the hole. Watching Detroit’s linebackers, you don’t see them do this — it’s not in the game plan for Suh to be taken out of his gap.

In other words, you can aggressively get after the passer without giving up on your run responsibilities on every down. The best defensive tackles understand that it is not third-and-long on every play.

LOSING THE SMALL BATTLES

There is a certain type of play that Suh seems to struggle with more than others, and is finding it very tough to recognize and adjust to in the NFL. This type of play accounts for a big portion of his negative grading. When Suh can see the block coming he often handles it OK, but when he is not blocked by the guy straight ahead of him, he is often caught out, driven completely out of his hole and the play, leaving a major gap for the rest of the defense to deal with.

We have a pair of plays that demonstrate this well from earlier this season. It is worth noting that in both of these plays Suh was blocked completely out of the play by just one blocker, freeing up linemen to get through to the second level in one case, or double team Corey Williams in the other case.

The first play came back in Week 2 against the Eagles. Facing second-and-18 from the shotgun, Suh had his ears pinned back. Lined up just outside of the right guard, he failed to recognize that the guard at no point even pretended to block him, instead focusing inside and double teaming Williams. At this point a smart and experienced DT would know something was not right, and would be looking for the block, but Suh was always focused on the ball.

Tearing into the backfield, Suh suddenly found himself face-to-face with left guard Todd Herremans pulling from the other side. Herremans, coming at steam, blew Suh out of the hole, leaving right tackle Winston Justice to get to the second level to pick up a linebacker, and LeSean McCoy was able to run for 13 of the 18 yards needed to pick up the first down (the play was called back on illegal formation).

It was a perfect example of the type of play that a good defensive tackle needs to be able to recognize and react to, especially when he is looking in the backfield from the beginning.

The second play was from Week 1 against the Bears, and is an even simpler variant on blocking up front.

Chicago lines up in a simple I-formation, with Detroit fixed in their base 4-3 D. The Bears are looking to run outside of right tackle, and obviously Suh — shaded outside right guard as he is — has a prime spot from which to disrupt the run.

All Chicago does is down-block from right tackle, hitting Suh from his left side instead of head-up. This allows the right guard to pull around and lead through the hole, sealing inside as he goes through. Suh is so completely surprised that he is being blocked by someone other than the right guard that he is not only sealed off from the play, but moved backwards at the point of attack by Frank Omiyale. This frees up the right guard, and Olin Kreutz the center to get through to the second level and deal with linebackers.

On both occasions the play was designed to go within a yard of Suh’s position, and on both occasions Suh was not only nowhere near the hole at the time the back arrived, but had left such a large hole by the manner in which he was blocked that the potential for a big gain was real.

We’re not saying that every play is like these, and there are plenty of impressive plays against the run in Suh’s game film. But these are the plays that escape people’s notice, the plays that show the weaknesses in his game. As a defensive tackle you have to be responsible for the run as well as the pass, unless you are going to be used purely as a situational rusher, and that isn’t what the Lions are doing with Suh. These plays are popping up repeatedly, and the Lions and Suh need to do a better job of making them stop.

RAW NUMBERS vs. REAL PRODUCTION

Suh’s numbers are certainly impressive. He leads DTs with seven sacks and is second with 24 stops, and that type of production can’t be ignored.

A deeper look softens those numbers a bit. Start with the fact that he’s playing more than any other DT, and thus has more opportunities for success than anyone else. Then go to the fact that he’s gotten sacks on an unusually low number of pressures — seven sacks in 22 total QB disruptions, for a 31.8 percent sack rate. Of our top 10 DT pass-rushers a year ago, the average rate was 12.4 percent.

Suh has rushed the passer 302 times and has 12 pressures, three hits and seven sacks. That’s one pressure in 13.7 rushes. Compare it to a guy like St. Louis’ Fred Robbins, who isn’t exactly rocking the sales-jersey charts. He’s rushed the passer 226 times and gotten 21 pressures (one in 10.8), and has played great run D. But he only has two sacks, and that is the difference between a decent season and the hype machine going into overdrive.

Raw stat production will always trump any green or red numbers we put on a page in terms of getting you recognized. There’s certainly merit in being a finisher, which Suh is — he closes on quarterbacks like a lion on a three-legged zebra. But it shows time and time again in our QB stats that pressure from the pass rush leads to mistakes in the passing game, and those are certainly as important as the odd 8-yard loss.

Suh’s play thus far most closely equates to Houston’s Amobi Okoye, who is generally regarded as a one-dimensional player if not an outright flop. Okoye’s rookie performance was very similar to Suh’s thus far in terms of grading, if not raw production. He then took a major step back in his sophomore effort and is so-so at best this year.

THE FUTURE

Regardless of our general dampening of enthusiasm, the outlook is favorable for No. 90. He’s playing an incredible number of snaps and gaining invaluable experience. Schwartz is a defensive guy, and he’s surrounded Suh with a good group of defensive linemen.

Just because we’re pointing out flaws doesn’t mean we’re not big fans of his ability, potential, and some of his play. Suh is as physically gifted as any defensive tackle in the league, he has massive ability, but he is being caught out by simple blocking tricks that linemen have been using for years. There is no reason a player of his caliber should be so totally unprepared to be blocked by somebody other than the man lined up directly in front of him. He has shown improvement, grading positively against the run the last two weeks against the Redskins and Jets. If that continues, the sky will be the limit.

He certainly has the potential to earn the Defensive Rookie of the Year honor — one that is almost certain to be his regardless of what we might say. There’s just no way that a top pick with big numbers and highlights aplenty is going to fail to win that honor, and that’s just the way it is. We’ll be surprised if he’s not a Pro Bowler, as well.

If Suh were on a better team that had more options on the DL (the Lions’ depth is quite poor), he’d probably be better served in a more situational role, but it makes sense for the Lions to use him on every down. It’s the only way he’ll get better, and even a confused Suh is a better option than a focused Sammie Lee Hill.

We’re just hoping that he starts earning all of his accolades a bit more with well-balanced play as his career goes on. Is that so much to ask?

That analysis was written after week 9. I agree with the analysis, but Suh and the Lions defense was much improved by the end of the year despite a starting back 7 that included 5 guys who weren't even on the team at the start of the year and KvB on IR. Our defense ranked 6th in the NFL in sacks which helped the Lions generate 35 turnovers. Suh's relentless pressure in the middle was a key factor in allowing guys like Lawrence Jackson, Cliff Avril, and Turk McBride to have career years. The guy who really is flying under the radar is Corey Williams. Despite leading the league in penalties, he was a terror next to Suh.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Although a center will never get the vote I think Maurkice Pouncey deserves to be mentioned.

Yep, he was just left off because of his position. Pouncey looks like the real deal and a long time Pro Bowler at the center position.

 

[Bri]

Blount was cut. /thread

Wha?

http://www.kval.com/sports/local/102264209.html

So? Is there a rule that says you can't win an award if you've been cut at some point in your past?

"at some point in your past" huh?I know you know this- rookie denotes their first season in the NFL. "of the year" denotes that it is also just one season- so I'm not following your comment.

We're talking about the best of the best rookies, no? Well then how can that be someone that couldn't stay on an NFL roster? Right there you're stuck making a distinction between doing well for the Titans versus doing well for the Bucs. That simply isn't going to fly when being compared to the best of the best. This discussion began when the top five were announced. The five best rookies.

It doesn't mean Blount wasn't impressive. It doesn't mean he didn't do well or shouldn't get a pat on the back for overcoming being cut and succeeding. But, there's no way a guy cut is going to be considered the best.

Do I have to be wise and say "feel free to let me know all the great players your favorite team cut this year?"

 

[Mr. Retukes]

We're talking about the best of the best rookies, no? Well then how can that be someone that couldn't stay on an NFL roster?

That says a lot more about Tennessee than it says about Blount.And it says a lot about you that you either don't get it or are fishing.

 

[Bri]

We're talking about the best of the best rookies, no? Well then how can that be someone that couldn't stay on an NFL roster?

That says a lot more about Tennessee than it says about Blount.And it says a lot about you that you either don't get it or are fishing.

what don't I get?

 

[Donnybrook]

I'm impressed with Rodger Saffold. First, he beats out last years 2nd overall pick, Jason Smith, to be the starting left tackle. Then, he only allows 2 sacks all year.

 

[Ranethe]

Blount was cut. /thread

Wha?

http://www.kval.com/sports/local/102264209.html

So? Is there a rule that says you can't win an award if you've been cut at some point in your past?

"at some point in your past" huh?I know you know this- rookie denotes their first season in the NFL. "of the year" denotes that it is also just one season- so I'm not following your comment.

We're talking about the best of the best rookies, no? Well then how can that be someone that couldn't stay on an NFL roster? Right there you're stuck making a distinction between doing well for the Titans versus doing well for the Bucs. That simply isn't going to fly when being compared to the best of the best. This discussion began when the top five were announced. The five best rookies.

It doesn't mean Blount wasn't impressive. It doesn't mean he didn't do well or shouldn't get a pat on the back for overcoming being cut and succeeding. But, there's no way a guy cut is going to be considered the best.

Do I have to be wise and say "feel free to let me know all the great players your favorite team cut this year?"

No clue what you are saying here. As a long time lurker I've always known that you are incomprehensible most of the time. If you are saying what it seems you are saying then you are more than incomprehensible....

Unless there is some sarcasm here I'm missing, this is whacked.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

We're talking about the best of the best rookies, no? Well then how can that be someone that couldn't stay on an NFL roster?

That says a lot more about Tennessee than it says about Blount.And it says a lot about you that you either don't get it or are fishing.

what don't I get?

Apparently you don't "get" the fact that Rookie Of The Year is based on your regular season performance, not your pre-season performance.Or, you are At this point I'm leaning towards you being

 

[Go deep]

We're talking about the best of the best rookies, no? Well then how can that be someone that couldn't stay on an NFL roster?

That says a lot more about Tennessee than it says about Blount.And it says a lot about you that you either don't get it or are fishing.

It doesnt say anything about Blount or the Titans. Blount can be the best RB on the Bucs, and at the same time not be worthy of a roster spot on the Titans. CJ and Ringer are both better than anything on the Bucs before and after Blount got there.

 

[Bri]

We're talking about the best of the best rookies, no? Well then how can that be someone that couldn't stay on an NFL roster?

That says a lot more about Tennessee than it says about Blount.And it says a lot about you that you either don't get it or are fishing.

what don't I get?

Apparently you don't "get" the fact that Rookie Of The Year is based on your regular season performance, not your pre-season performance.Or, you are At this point I'm leaning towards you being

Your timing is off. Blount made the Titans roster on "cut-down day" and then was cut. He was not cut in preseason and was on their roster for each preseason game.No rookie cut during the season is going to win rookie of the year.Many comments in this thread are from people that were claiming Mike Williams should be ROY a week or so ago. So I guess that means it's me fishing, not the OP.

 

[Bri]

No clue what you are saying here. As a long time lurker I've always known that you are incomprehensible most of the time. If you are saying what it seems you are saying then you are more than incomprehensible....Unless there is some sarcasm here I'm missing, this is whacked.

sorry you feel that way. Maybe in the future I can PM posts to you and you can repost them after taking the time to edit?

 

[renesauz]

WOW. A rookie RB barely gets 1000 yards and you're upset he isn't a serious ROY candidate?

Take your glasses off.

Blount only started 7 games. He led all rookies in rushing yards, yards per game, yards per carry, and was 2nd in TDs. He was one of only 3 offensive players to win "Rookie Of The Month" honors. He was definitely a serious ROY candidate.

How many RB's break 1000 yards on a regular basis? A ROY has to stand out not only among his rookie peers, but he has to be at least above average among his veteran positional peers (with some minor exceptions possible at QB). Blount may have been the most succesful rookie RB this year, but I suspect that his numbers are well below the numbers RB ROY winners have achieved in the past.The ROY honors tend to gravitate toward RBs and QBs...that's the reason Blount is worth even mentioning, but it's a fairly weak one.

For clarity, the OP said DIGUSTINGLY HOSED. It is this statement I'm vehemently attacking. Nothing disgusting (we can argue about hosed) about it. Blount has had a good year and deserves kudos, but he's NOT a strong candidate, at all.

ETA: Exactly how many football months are there? Three offensive players sounds right to me!

 

[Bayhawks]

Your timing is off. Blount made the Titans roster on "cut-down day" and then was cut. He was not cut in preseason and was on their roster for each preseason game.

You are correct that Blount made the Titans' roster on "cut-down day" and was cut (1 day later). However, you are DEAD WRONG in saying he wasn't cut in preseason.He was cut on 9/5/10. The first game of the 2010 NFL regular season was on 9/9/10. Therefore, he was cut before the season started, or in pre-season.

No rookie cut during the season is going to win rookie of the year.

If he puts up good enough numbers, he will. The fact is that Blount (while impressive at the end of the year) didn't put up good enough numbers to win ROY. I believe it should go to Suh, but that Bradford will probably win it.

 

[treat88]

I'm impressed with Rodger Saffold. First, he beats out last years 2nd overall pick, Jason Smith, to be the starting left tackle. Then, he only allows 2 sacks all year.

Tired of seeing skill position rooks who have slightly above average seasons pimped by the masses as ROY while legitimately excellent OL performances are overlooked.Saffold had as good if not a better season than any other 1st year player.

 

[David Yudkin]

Since 1960, there have been 56 times where a rookie RB went over 1,000 yards rushing. It's happened 17 times since 2000. No one is saying he didn't have a solid season, but in no way was he a slam dunk ROY winner this year.

 

[FantasyTrader]

Since 1960, there have been 56 times where a rookie RB went over 1,000 yards rushing. It's happened 17 times since 2000. No one is saying he didn't have a solid season, but in no way was he a slam dunk ROY winner this year.

I think this is all anybody is trying to say, only Yudkin put it best. Tip of the hat to Blount, but reel it in a bit.

 

[Premier]

I'm a Bucs fan, and other than the idiotic argument that a cut player can't win this award, I couldn't care less. Other than the MVP, nobody ever remembers or talks about these awards.

 

[nxmehta]

Since 1960, there have been 56 times where a rookie RB went over 1,000 yards rushing. It's happened 17 times since 2000. No one is saying he didn't have a solid season, but in no way was he a slam dunk ROY winner this year.

As soon as people started guessing at some numbers for a statistic, I knew Yudkin would show up a few posts later with the answer.