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Boilers - A cry for help (1 Viewer)

Nick Vermeil

Footballguy
I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.
 
Blacklungdot.

Wish I knew more about this stuff relative to the stuff I actually know a lot about, so I could help.

But let me know and I'll make sure to advise if it's pretty enough or not.
 
I opened this thread thinking it was something about the Purdue Boilermakers. . ..carry on.
 
I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.
Is Propane an option in your neck of the woods?
 
I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.
Is Propane an option in your neck of the woods?
It is.
 
I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.
Is Propane an option in your neck of the woods?
It is.
OK, here are my thoughts:

1. If you have ductwork for air conditioning you can use the same ductwork for heating. When HVAC ductwork is designed it is designed for cooling because cold air is heavier. So the ductwork needs to be larger to accommodate the air flow necessary to push that cold air. Hot air is lighter, and you can most definitely push hot air through ductwork designed for cooling. So it also means you already have an air handler for the air conditioner? I'm going to assume that.

2. So a heat pump is basically an air conditioner that has a reversing valve on it so it can provide heat in the winter. The problem is, it is only really effective until the outdoor temp gets down to about 32 degrees. At that point you will need a backup heat source. That can be oil, electric, or a gas/propane furnace. So in your area, if your winter temps get below that frequently, a heat pump with backup electric heat is going to be really expensive. With that being said, an electric water heater is also really expensive because it's pulling 220 power every time it goes to heat up water. If I were you I would avoid this option altogether.

If natural gas is truly not an option (and I cannot believe this, especially with options less than 50 yards away in both directions), then that leaves you oil. Or propane.

We have propane at our house. It's relatively simple. There is a tank on my property. I lease the tank from the propane company but if I exceed a certain amount of propane a year they waive the lease amount (it's like $50 a year to lease the tank, so no biggie. Plus they are responsible for it). My tank is about 30' from my house. You can put them farther but it's easier for the propane guy to get to it. So the downside is you have to look at the tank, but I'm out in the country so out here it's like looking at a tree. They are everywhere.

If you do this you are basically looking at a propane furnace and water heater. And the cost of getting the propane line to your house. And the heat feels like a normal gas heat. You just have to fill it a few times a year. If you truly hate the oil experience this might be a viable option.

Otherwise you are stuck with the remaining two options: A or C. And that just really depends on you. Do you want to stomach the cost now to get rid of noise and inefficiency? If your current boiler is older, that's the way to go in my opinion.
 
I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.
Is Propane an option in your neck of the woods?
It is.
OK, here are my thoughts:

1. If you have ductwork for air conditioning you can use the same ductwork for heating. When HVAC ductwork is designed it is designed for cooling because cold air is heavier. So the ductwork needs to be larger to accommodate the air flow necessary to push that cold air. Hot air is lighter, and you can most definitely push hot air through ductwork designed for cooling. So it also means you already have an air handler for the air conditioner? I'm going to assume that.

2. So a heat pump is basically an air conditioner that has a reversing valve on it so it can provide heat in the winter. The problem is, it is only really effective until the outdoor temp gets down to about 32 degrees. At that point you will need a backup heat source. That can be oil, electric, or a gas/propane furnace. So in your area, if your winter temps get below that frequently, a heat pump with backup electric heat is going to be really expensive. With that being said, an electric water heater is also really expensive because it's pulling 220 power every time it goes to heat up water. If I were you I would avoid this option altogether.

If natural gas is truly not an option (and I cannot believe this, especially with options less than 50 yards away in both directions), then that leaves you oil. Or propane.

We have propane at our house. It's relatively simple. There is a tank on my property. I lease the tank from the propane company but if I exceed a certain amount of propane a year they waive the lease amount (it's like $50 a year to lease the tank, so no biggie. Plus they are responsible for it). My tank is about 30' from my house. You can put them farther but it's easier for the propane guy to get to it. So the downside is you have to look at the tank, but I'm out in the country so out here it's like looking at a tree. They are everywhere.

If you do this you are basically looking at a propane furnace and water heater. And the cost of getting the propane line to your house. And the heat feels like a normal gas heat. You just have to fill it a few times a year. If you truly hate the oil experience this might be a viable option.

Otherwise you are stuck with the remaining two options: A or C. And that just really depends on you. Do you want to stomach the cost now to get rid of noise and inefficiency? If your current boiler is older, that's the way to go in my opinion.
Thanks my friend. So the comment from the one vendor about the duct work not being compatible for heat is bunk?

I think I'll make a few more passes at the natural gas utility before I pull the trigger.
 
Thanks my friend. So the comment from the one vendor about the duct work not being compatible for heat is bunk?

I think I'll make a few more passes at the natural gas utility before I pull the trigger.
Yeah. If your house currently has air conditioning that goes through ductwork you should be able to do heat. Now, in your area there may be some special kind of ductwork that is AC only, so I would defer to their expertise.

But if your ductwork for AC is normal metal ductwork you should be fine.
 
I'm in need of some boiler advice. We bought a house in NY state 5 years back and it has an oil boiler, which I despise. It's noisy, expensive to fuel and from my limited research it is not particularly efficient. I have tried to get natural gas run to the house, but the utility isn't cooperating and it looks unlikely even though there is gas service less than 50 yards from my house in two directions. Ultimately, I would love to get away from oil, but with gas not likely an option, electric or heat pumps are my only real options. For what it's worth, the current boiler is in fine condition and would likely last another 10-20 years.

So my problem is, there is an indirect water tank tied to the boiler that provides our hot water. Last week, that tank began leaking. As it turns out, the fittings on the coil have started to corrode and the thing needs to be replaced. So I'm forced with making a decision now that will ultimately affect my choices for dealing with the boiler.

I've had a couple companies come out and it looks like I have these options:

A) Commit to oil fuel and replace the current storage tank, upgrade some thermostats and controls which should increase efficiency about 15% - $6,700. I'm told the water storage portion of this setup is extremely efficient.

B) Begin moving away from oil by replacing the tank with an electric or heat pump water heater - $5,500-$8,500 includes all electrical work and permits. Both companies claim these options are not as efficient as the current indirect storage and do not provide as much readily available hot water. Both also steered me away from tankless units as they only last abut 7 years.

C) Replace the boiler and tank right now with a quiet, high efficiency Resolute direct vent oil boiler (can be converted to gas in future) and water tank - $17,500. This set up is 91.3% efficient cutting fuel usage 30-40%

D) Heat pumps. I don't have quotes yet for this and it may be too big of a job for my current timeline. Though we currently have ducts for AC, I'm being told they are too large for this application and would have to be replaced. The current base board heaters also are likely not compatible. But I'm happy to be convinced.

Paging @ChiefD and other experts or homeowners who have faced similar decisions.
Given this is NY state I would rule out the heat bump as it gets too cold for them to be really efficient on cold days. You would also need to make sure your house is fully insulated properly for a heat pump as your only heat source and unless newly built (which sounds like it isn’t) that would be a costly additional expense.

I would go with option a or c - depending on how big an improvement the new boiler would be.
 
There are cold climate heat pumps that work down to -20F. Not advocating for them necessarily, but they exist.

I believe New York put in laws restricting natural gas hookup to new buildings, perhaps those laws apply to any new hookup and are why they won’t do it.

A, C or Propane all look like good options given the circumstances. See what the heat pump guy says.
 
There are cold climate heat pumps that work down to -20F. Not advocating for them necessarily, but they exist.

I believe New York put in laws restricting natural gas hookup to new buildings, perhaps those laws apply to any new hookup and are why they won’t do it.

A, C or Propane all look like good options given the circumstances. See what the heat pump guy says.
@Nick Vermeil there's an article in the WaPo today about this tech. It's behind a paywall, but the topic should be searchable. The important bit:

Modern heat pumps, including those designed specifically for cold climates, often don’t switch to backup heat until the temperature is much lower, typically around 5 degrees, he said.
“That means for most of the country you don’t need backup heat if you use a cold climate heat pump,” he said.

Carrier, one of the companies that participated in the Energy Department’s heat pump challenge, said its technology could operate at full capacity at zero degrees Fahrenheit. Trial units of these heat pumps were field tested in homes in Syracuse, New York, and the company said they operated reliably, though not at full capacity, down to minus-13 degrees. In lab testing, the units were able to operate down to minus-23 degrees.

Hope this helps.
 
A quick update on this: the gas utility looked like they were going to run me a line as the main is only 200 feet away. But now they are saying I have to get one other homeowner between that main and my house to sign up too and they couldn't do it until Spring. There are only two houses that could do so. Bunch of BS if you ask me.

Will take another look at the heat pumps.
 

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