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Boy who identifies as girl competing in girl's track (2 Viewers)

fantasycurse42 said:
1) This passive aggressive type of post screams I care a lot about this, but I'll try to be nonchalant about it.

2) Squistion liked this post, always a red flag.

3) If I had a 15 year old daughter on the track team, I'd be extremely uncomfortable with her and Andraya showering together. I wouldn't want my daughter seeing her 12 inch dong swinging around. 
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Gee, why would that be something you'd imagine she has?

 
Ilov80s said:
You would have also had to deal with losing most of your friends, being made fun of, stared at and potentially ruining the relationship you had with family members. Also it's unlikely you would have had any romantic relationships. But yeah, would be real cool. 
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So... High School.

 
rojbk said:
I will never accept mental illness nor will I ever encourage it. I will always try to treat people that are mentally ill, and not try to use them as pawn pieces against social conservatives.
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You should read what the DSM5 says about gender dysmorphia because the scientific community has changed their position.

 
Ketamine Dreams said:
I honestly believe most people here don't have an issue with an individual deciding to live their lives as member of a different gender. But in sports - as in this situation - there is an unfair advantage when someone who is a male, in the description I used above, can compete against females.
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You are missing entire point about decoupling gender from sex. 

If a 15 year old male starts wearing makeup, dressing and "actingl ike a girl" there would be issues at home and in school, even if that kid still considered themself a male and didn't want to play any sports. We as a society are less accepting of someone that blurs the gender/sex line because we binary in our views of it all.

 
Ilov80s said:
You are missing entire point about decoupling gender from sex. 

If a 15 year old male starts wearing makeup, dressing and "actingl ike a girl" there would be issues at home and in school, even if that kid still considered themself a male and didn't want to play any sports. We as a society are less accepting of someone that blurs the gender/sex line because we binary in our views of it all.
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No actually I'm not. This person's sex is a male but identifies with the female gender. I understand it perfectly well. And if they want to identify as female, dress and act like a female, that's fine with me and I believe most people here. They can blur that line if they want  and that is their right.

The problem here is that this person is still a male and thus has an unfair advantage against those of the female sex. 

 
Ketamine Dreams said:
No actually I'm not. This person's sex is a male but identifies with the female gender. I understand it perfectly well. And if they want to identify as female, dress and act like a female, that's fine with me and I believe most people here. They can blur that line if they want  and that is their right.

The problem here is that this person is still a male and thus has an unfair advantage against those of the female sex. 
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Then you don't get my point. I am against a person born as a male competing in female sports (unless there has been somekind of hormanal therapy that has reversed the advantgaes). 

 
Ilov80s said:
My point is society should be more accepting/less binary so that a person that was born as a male but identifies as a female shouldn't feel that they have to join the female team in the first place. 
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And my thoughts are that society is becoming more accepting of these individuals in the general way: dress, makeup, etc. I believe people are less binary, but sometimes there is a difference that can't be ignored, especially when that difference conveys an advantage in competitive sports.

And you're right, this person shouldn't feel like they have to or are entitled to compete as a female. This person should be accepted to compete in male sports even if they identify as a female. 

 
Chaka said:
It's nice how open and accepting so many people are. If this kid wants to dress like a girl and identifies himself with a girl I am glad none of you would have any problem with her using the boys locker room before and after competing in boys track and field events and your male children would all treat her as an equal competitor.

I mean I couldn't possibly imagine a thread started about that.

Amen brothers and sisters you're doing the Lord's work.
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Your sarcasm falls flat, as I believe (at least in my city of Los Angeles) that is exactly how it would play out among an athlete's peers.

 
Ketamine Dreams said:
And my thoughts are that society is becoming more accepting of these individuals in the general way: dress, makeup, etc. I believe people are less binary, but sometimes there is a difference that can't be ignored, especially when that difference conveys an advantage in competitive sports.

And you're right, this person shouldn't feel like they have to or are entitled to compete as a female. This person should be accepted to compete in male sports even if they identify as a female. 
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That's my entire hypothesis. If society allowed for a more broad interpretation of how a biological male/biological female acted, then some might not feel more comfortable with who they are. For example, a person can shift their gender without changing their sex and without having to feel like they are now a person without a place to fit in. I do work with a student that (I think) was born female. However, the student said they really don't identify clearly with either gender and feels constantly tugged between the 2. The kid is nice, but has a lot of trouble fitting in as other kids just don't know what to make of the situation- doesn't fit in with the guys and doesn't fit in with the girls either. 

 
Ketamine Dreams said:
And you're right, this person shouldn't feel like they have to or are entitled to compete as a female. This person should be accepted to compete in male sports even if they identify as a female. 
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I'd like to read the story about Andraya running for 275/4 in the state playoffs, actually be a much bigger headline IMO.

 
Ilov80s said:
That's my entire hypothesis. If society allowed for a more broad interpretation of how a biological male/biological female acted, then some might not feel more comfortable with who they are. For example, a person can shift their gender without changing their sex and without having to feel like they are now a person without a place to fit in. I do work with a student that (I think) was born female. However, the student said they really don't identify clearly with either gender and feels constantly tugged between the 2. The kid is nice, but has a lot of trouble fitting in as other kids just don't know what to make of the situation- doesn't fit in with the guys and doesn't fit in with the girls either. 
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And that's because society is intolerant?  Nonsense.  We have become overly tolerant.  Your theory is hogwash.

 
Higgs said:
And that's because society is intolerant?  Nonsense.  We have become overly tolerant.  Your theory is hogwash.
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I don't think it's intentional or even about tolerance as much as expectatons. It's impossible now to grow up and develop an idea for what a male is supposed to be like and what a female is suppossed to be like. By the time a kid is 3 or 4 they understand this.  It's certainly more broad than it was 50 years ago, but it's not that broad and the roles are definite. My theory is likely hogwash, most theories are. Biology is pushing the feeling of being the wrong gender, but what roles do society and biology play in also feeling one is also the wrong sex. Can that be decoupled or is it purely biological?

 
Weirdly, I've gone from understanding the debate to not so much. 

Seems like the whole problem is the acceptance/non-acceptance of gender roles, the binary, decoupling the binary from sex, etc. 

Just remember this: Gender is a social construct as a statement is true. This is what I've been saying on this board for two-plus years. 

Gender as a social construct is true because gender itself is a social construct. This problem is Wittgenstein.  

Sex = male/female

Gender = continuum of traditional sex roles

Now everyone debates what I've been saying since 2011. 

 
EYLive said:
That's it? Nonsensical insults? 
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You found that insulting?

Good Ol' Raisins and Peanuts?

But if you must defend whether or not there would be a thread with some over concerned or fauxtraged person talking about the boy in a dress running track and using the boys locker rooms maybe citing your belief about what may or may not happen in one of the most progressive cities in the country isn't so convincing.

 
Ilov80s said:
I don't think it's intentional or even about tolerance as much as expectatons. It's impossible now to grow up and develop an idea for what a male is supposed to be like and what a female is suppossed to be like. By the time a kid is 3 or 4 they understand this.  It's certainly more broad than it was 50 years ago, but it's not that broad and the roles are definite. My theory is likely hogwash, most theories are. Biology is pushing the feeling of being the wrong gender, but what roles do society and biology play in also feeling one is also the wrong sex. Can that be decoupled or is it purely biological?
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My son went to daycare with a boy who from the age of 5 wore girls clothes.  Nobody in the town err complained, and it wasn't an issue with any of the kids.  And this was 10 years ago.

We've since moved to a conservative rural area and my son is now in high school.  He tells me that in his class of about 150 there are probably a dozen or so gays.  He says that being gay now is kind of "cool".  So no, I don't think the issue of intolerance plays into this much at all.

 
Higgs said:
My son went to daycare with a boy who from the age of 5 wore girls clothes.  Nobody in the town err complained, and it wasn't an issue with any of the kids.  And this was 10 years ago.

We've since moved to a conservative rural area and my son is now in high school.  He tells me that in his class of about 150 there are probably a dozen or so gays.  He says that being gay now is kind of "cool".  So no, I don't think the issue of intolerance plays into this much at all.
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My nephew is 8 and likes to paint his nails, play with My Little Ponies. He gets made fun of a lot by other kids and already has a lot of issues. He tried hiding it, telling his family not to  buy him dolls or pink clothes anymore. He said he just wanted the other kids to be nice to him. Now he's thinking about going all in on being a girl (wear dresses, growing hair out, etc.) but the Catholic School he is at said that it's against the code of conduct and will not be tolerated. So he has to choose between staying at the school where he has friends, teachers he likes or switching schools. Also, it's a bummer because his 2 siblings (including his twin brother) will have to leave the school which they aren't happy about. 

Being gay is an entirely different thing. 

 
Ilov80s said:
My nephew is 8 and likes to paint his nails, play with My Little Ponies. He gets made fun of a lot by other kids and already has a lot of issues. He tried hiding it, telling his family not to  buy him dolls or pink clothes anymore. He said he just wanted the other kids to be nice to him. Now he's thinking about going all in on being a girl (wear dresses, growing hair out, etc.) but the Catholic School he is at said that it's against the code of conduct and will not be tolerated. So he has to choose between staying at the school where he has friends, teachers he likes or switching schools. Also, it's a bummer because his 2 siblings (including his twin brother) will have to leave the school which they aren't happy about. 

Being gay is an entirely different thing. 
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I feel really bad for kids like this.  They should be able to do whatever feels comfortable as long as it doesn't hurt others.

But the problem here is Ricky Williams IS hurting others.  The a-holes in here can poo-poo the "damage" being done to the girl on my son's team, but it's very real.  He is not doing the tranny movement any favors here.

 
Higgs said:
I feel really bad for kids like this.  They should be able to do whatever feels comfortable as long as it doesn't hurt others.

But the problem here is Ricky Williams IS hurting others.  The a-holes in here can poo-poo the "damage" being done to the girl on my son's team, but it's very real.  He is not doing the tranny movement any favors here.
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:wall:

 
Chaka said:
You found that insulting?

Good Ol' Raisins and Peanuts?

But if you must defend whether or not there would be a thread with some over concerned or fauxtraged person talking about the boy in a dress running track and using the boys locker rooms maybe citing your belief about what may or may not happen in one of the most progressive cities in the country isn't so convincing.
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Your post doesn't make any sense. Maybe it's the run-on sentence that's muddling your point. But it's hard to understand what you are saying.

 
Higgs said:
I feel really bad for kids like this.  They should be able to do whatever feels comfortable as long as it doesn't hurt others.

But the problem here is Ricky Williams IS hurting others.  The a-holes in here can poo-poo the "damage" being done to the girl on my son's team, but it's very real.  He is not doing the tranny movement any favors here.
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really? So the university of whatever is going to be giving the Trans kid a woman's athletic scholarship? I mean, if the girl that comes in second place is still considered first in line for a female athletic scholarship then is there still a reason to complain?

 
CGRdrJoe said:
really? So the university of whatever is going to be giving the Trans kid a woman's athletic scholarship? I mean, if the girl that comes in second place is still considered first in line for a female athletic scholarship then is there still a reason to complain?
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I'm sure you know it doesn't work like that.  There are very few scholarships for track athletes.  Another kid from my son's school placed 2nd in the State Open a few years ago in the 2 mile.  The kid who placed first got a full ride and our kid got zippo.  Same college.

 
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Higgs said:
I'm sure you know it doesn't work like that.  There are very few scholarships for track athletes.  Another kid from my son's school placed 2nd in the State Open a few years ago in the 2 mile.  The kid who placed first got a full ride and our kid got zippo.  Same college.
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What I'm interested in is how College's will identify the transgender athlete. If in college the kid can't compete as a female then is this still such a big issue?

 
CGRdrJoe said:
What I'm interested in is how College's will identify the transgender athlete. If in college the kid can't compete as a female then is this still such a big issue?
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Division 1 schools typically only give out big scholarships to state champions.  All they will see is this girl was always #2.  They won't necessarily know she was beat out by a tran.

 
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CGRdrJoe said:
What I'm interested in is how College's will identify the transgender athlete. If in college the kid can't compete as a female then is this still such a big issue?
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it's a big issue to the kid that got screwed over by not having male genetics competing in the competition.   They should have let the girl use a weapon.  

 
EYLive said:
Your post doesn't make any sense. Maybe it's the run-on sentence that's muddling your point. But it's hard to understand what you are saying.
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EYL the only point is that I believe many of the same people, not all, who are outraged by this would also be outraged if this girl competed in boy's track and used the boy's locker room.

You may be right that the teammates might have less of a problem with it than the parents, but there would certainly be issues from other kids as well.

 
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Higgs said:
Division 1 schools typically only give out big scholarships to state champions.  All they will see is this girl was always #2. 
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Speaking of #2, you're argument is the equivalent of #2. They'll look at her times as much as anything.

 
Higgs said:
I'd say when we are letting jacked up males run girls track, and letting men who say they identify as female be allowed into female locker rooms where teenage girls are undressing, yes we've become overly tolerant.
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I would be curious to see a breakdown of people you will and won't tolerate barging into changing areas in order to check out teenage girls getting undressed.  Here, I'll get you started:

Will not tolerate: hypothetical teenagers pretending to be transgender

Will tolerate: old men running for President of the United States

Please complete.  TIA.

 
Higgs said:
Division 1 schools typically only give out big scholarships to state champions.  All they will see is this girl was always #2.  They won't necessarily know she was beat out by a tran.
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This is wrong in sports beyond track & field. I'd extend it being wrong to other individual achievement sports like wrestling, swimming, tennis, etc.

Hypothetically, you have the top tennis player who has been the state champ every year since they were a frosh. Then, you have another tennis player who has lost in the state finals to them every year since this other individual was a soph. Quite the achievement to be the runner-up as a soph and every year since. 

With the above tennis example, you can only make one concrete inference, the runner-up was not the best in the country, that is all. Technically, you could have the 2nd best player in the country, who would have an offer to any school they like. Just showing that line of thought is flawed.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
This is wrong in sports beyond track & field. I'd extend it being wrong to other individual achievement sports like wrestling, swimming, tennis, etc.

Hypothetically, you have the top tennis player who has been the state champ every year since they were a frosh. Then, you have another tennis player who has lost in the state finals to them every year since this other individual was a soph. Quite the achievement to be the runner-up as a soph and every year since. 

With the above tennis example, you can only make one concrete inference, the runner-up was not the best in the country, that is all. Technically, you could have the 2nd best player in the country, who would have an offer to any school they like. Just showing that line of thought is flawed.
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that is certainly true when it comes to wrestling. Long list of kids who never won a state title in PA and got nice scholarship offers from many d1 schools.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I would be curious to see a breakdown of people you will and won't tolerate barging into changing areas in order to check out teenage girls getting undressed.  Here, I'll get you started:

Will not tolerate: hypothetical teenagers pretending to be transgender

Will tolerate: old men running for President of the United States

Please complete.  TIA.
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There have been plenty of problems with perverted men using the tranny issue to take advantage of poorly thought out rules.  The Target bathroom issue comes to mind (which I was absolutely spot on about, both in terms of identifying the problem and predicting what the ultimate resolution would be).

But by all means keep up with the Trump obsession.  It's comical. 

 
Fallon Fox was an MMA fighter that was born a man and transitioned to a woman. Then she fought against women professionally and beat the living hell out of a bunch of ladies, except for one loss to a current UFC bantamweight.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Completely disassociating organized sports from education (as is the case in 90% of the world outside the US) would go a long way toward solving this and numerous other issues and injustices we complain about around here.
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This is a more interesting discussion topic IMO.

The reason the association between sports and school exists in the first place is because schools are brands that people can identify with. People would rather watch the local high school blow out the next town over than see the two schools divide up the talent and play an even game. If equitable competition is the goal in athletics, club teams generally do a much better job than school teams. 

So yeah, on one hand it's silly and illogical to let a genetic male compete in an event specifically for females. I'm not in favor of that. But it's also silly to pretend that high school sports were this perfectly fair world until Andraya showed up and ruined everything. Lots of kids are going to lose to someone they really don't need to be competing against.

 
Spartans Rule said:
Exactly. Track is the easiest sport to recruit. You just look at times. The kids who post the best times will get the scholarships.
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Everyone in the mix gets good times.  In most cases it's the big wins (State Champion being one of them) that get you noticed and recruited.  Most college track coaches don't do a lot of scouting.  It's really strange.

 
Higgs said:
There have been plenty of problems with perverted men using the tranny issue to take advantage of poorly thought out rules.  The Target bathroom issue comes to mind (which I was absolutely spot on about, both in terms of identifying the problem and predicting what the ultimate resolution would be).

But by all means keep up with the Trump obsession.  It's comical. 
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:sigh:

 
Higgs said:
Everyone in the mix gets good times.  In most cases it's the big wins (State Champion being one of them) that get you noticed and recruited.  Most college track coaches don't do a lot of scouting.  It's really strange.
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Dude, everything in this post is wrong. Get back to the topic at hand.

 
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