What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Brett Favre v. John Elway (1 Viewer)

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
With the recent passing of Otto Graham, we've seen quite a few list their top QBs ever. Most of them go like this...

Otto Graham: While Graham was guiding the Browns, Cleveland played in 10 straight title games and had four AAFC and three NFL championships. All-league in 9 of 10 seasons. 23584 passing yards, 174 TDs. Four-time AAFC passing leader, twice the NFL passing leader.

Sammy Baugh: Slingin' Sammy. By the time Baugh was through, the forward pass was a primary offensive weapon. 21,886 passing yards, 187 TDs, 45.1 punting average, 31 interceptions. In 1943, led the league in passing, punting and interceptions. Seven-time All-NFL, six time passing leader.

Johnny Unitas: Exceptional field leader, thrived on pressure. Ten-time Pro Bowler, Six-time All-pro, three-time NFL MVP. Led the Colts to NFL title in 58 & 59. His record of at least one touchdown pass in 47 consecutive games may stand forever. 40,239 passing yards, 290 TDs.

Joe Montana: "Montana Magic", nobody had more of "it" than the master of the come-from-behind victory. Eight-time Pro Bowler, three-time All-NFL. Led the 49ers to four Super Bowl victories, named MVP of the game three times. Led NFL in passing twice. His six 300-yard passing performances in the post-season are an NFL record. He also owns the career playoff record for attempts, completions, touchdowns, and yards gained passing. 40,551 passing yards, 273 TDs, 92.3 career rating.

John Elway: The first overall pick in 1983, Elway led the Broncos to five Super Bowls (victories in 97 & 98). "The Drive", four-time Pro Bowler, league MVP in 87, one of only two QBs with over 50,000 career passing yards (Marino 61,361). 51,475 passing yards, 300 TDs, 148 victories as a QB.

The name that seems to be left out more often than not is Brett Favre. Why is that? The fact that he's currently active? The state of the NFL?

Favre currently ranks fifth all-time with 45,646 passing yards and is within sight of Dan Marino's record 420 TD passes (Favre currently ranks #2 with 346).

Three-time NFL MVP, he led the Packers to Super Bowl victory in 1996.
With a career record of 115-58, holds the third-highest winning percentage (.665) among starting QBs who have begun their careers since the 1970 league merger (min. 100 starts)
Has started 173 consecutive games (190 including playoffs), which is an NFL record for a quarterback
Ranks fifth all-time in passer rating at 86.7; only the Rams' Kurt Warner (98.2) and a trio of 49er QBs - Steve Young (96.8), Joe Montana (92.3) and Jeff Garcia (89.9) - are listed ahead
Voted to his seventh Pro Bowl in 2002I could be wrong here, and Favre may be receiving the credit that he rightfully deserves, but in my eyes it comes down to two guys when talking about the best ever: Montana and Favre.

 

swiftness

Footballguy
Its cause he is stil active, who knows how much longer he will play, and how many more stats he will get, but i agree with you that he is one of the all time great QBs.

 

sbcpa

Footballguy
Favre (or Elway for that matter) better than Marino? Why, because they have won Super Bowls? I remember when Elway's greatness wasn't recognized because he couldnt close the deal in the big game. Then, a guy named TD came along and guess what, 2 Super Bowls for Elway and now he is one of the best all of a sudden?No way at this point you can rank Favre over Marino...of course, Favre isn't finished yet.

 

Mushu

Footballguy
In my opinion, the best way to determine just who is better that who, I plug them into each other's situation. Do they sink or swim....For example:Elway vs. Montana....you put Montana in Elway's situation and he never makes it to 1997. The punishment inflicted on Elway...ends Montana's career much sooner.....Elway, on the other hand, breaks every record in the book!

 

Gatorman

Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
Agreed. Any list of all time great QBs that doesn't include marino shouldn't exist.That being said, I believe that it is hard to pick a "top 5" anymore. As the NFL's lifespan begins to resemble that of Baseball, you will have a Hard time picking a "best ever"The main problem with Favre is that he was so up and down early in his career. He is definitely the last of the "gunslingers" who put the team on his shoulders and said, "let's go" (especially considering how Bledsoe has faded).I would put Favre in my top 10 ahead of dan fouts and steve young.MarinoMontanaElwayGrahamBaughUnitasFavreFoutsSteve Young**Manning** (when all is said and done).Jim KellyAgain, there are a bunch of guys I've left off the list who could be argued at length (Bradshaw, Aikman, etc) but my criteria is statistics more than championships as well as how that player "stands alone" meaning if you put him in a different system/team/personell would he still have been successful? The guys above would have been mentioned on this list (barring injury or some other fluky thing) even if they were on a differernt team, played with different players, whatever. Put Davis on Miami and maybe dan gets those championships. Give fouts a defense, same thing. Put Elway in Miami with shula (or montana for that matter) and they'd still be considered a great even if they didn't put up dan's numbers. Put jim kelly in Miami and danny in buffalo....et cetera.Gator

 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
That's a good point also. Why isn't Marino ever listed among the games all-time greats? He's a stat guy. Made it to one Super Bowl, early in his career, and was never able to lead his team back. The fact that he never won a Super Bowl takes away from the fact that he was a winner, second all-time in victories behind Elway I believe. Both he and Elway were able to build heavy numbers in both stats and victories with their longevity (17 & 16 years played, respectively), and it looks like that may be held against Marino.

 

Mario Kart

Footballguy
i have to stick up for Favre being a GB homer and all. and here is why:Favre has never had a pure #1 WR. Favre finds the open man, sometimes on the other team, more than anyone I have seen play. He whips the ball, even at his age, better than Elway, Montana and Unitas. Favre, like Elway, never had a pure RB that could carry the load, thus forcing the QB to make plays. Until Terrell Davis showed up Elway had not won the "big game" all though his many comebacks are noted. Favre won the big game before Ahman Green showed up. This is a small comparison but should be noted. Favre also has had many comeback victories. Not to mention his record at home in inclimate weather... I am not mentioning his record on turf though.A comparison between Elway and Favre I have not seen is the competition when they were playing. The NFC in the 80's was the place to be. Arguably the AFC was an inferior conference not winning a Superbowl for some 15 years... again this :bag: hurts. In that comparison Montana would have to be thrown in as better than Elway... even Marino too.Who had the tougher divisions?? I can speak for Favre in that when he first came about, gulp, the Bears had a playoff team... so did the Lions with Barry leading them. As the Bears faded as well as the Lions the Bucs and Vikings rose up to compete with the Pack. The Viking offense of the late 90's was awesome, the Bucs Defense of the 90's was awesome and Favre overcame them the majority of the time. In conclusion, looking at stats one cannot compare Favre yet simply because he is active, but as an avid football fan I would want no other leading my team from week 1 to the Superbowl. He has proven he can do this for 10+ years now never missing a game too.

 

Vivian Darkbloom

Footballguy
I'm not sure what lists the Favre and Marino backers are seeing that don't feature those two names prominently on the lists of best Qb's ever. Certainly, most discussions I've seen gives each guy his due.

The order of the top 5 or 10 seems to be pretty much random, depending who you ask. Guess it depends to what degree those rating value stats vs awards vs titles, etc.

Anyway, the answer to the question about why I never see Favre on those lists is a resounding "I do."

 

Sinrman

Footballguy
Oh, Favre absolutely should be up near the top of greatest QBs ever. I don't know a single person that will deny that... I think it's simply because he's still active that he isn't listed in such company.Some others I'd throw in there -- Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton. And yes, I absolutely believe that when all is said and done, Peyton Manning will be a top 5 QB of all time......

 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
Some others I'd throw in there -- Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton. And yes, I absolutely believe that when all is said and done, Peyton Manning will be a top 5 QB of all time......
Statistically, no doubt. Manning's first six seasons have been incredible.At this pace, if he were to play as many games as Marino (242), he'd throw for 62,728 yards with 421 TDs. Both slightly better than Marino's record totals.If he fails to win in the postseason, like Marino (8-10 in post-season play), we'll be talking about them the same way 10 years from now. Except for the fact that Manning has a weapon that Marino never did...Edgerrin James.You mentioned Fran Tarkenton and I was just looking at his numbers. His longevity definitely played a part in the outstanding numbers. Eighteen seasons (including one injured year). Lost his only Super Bowl appearance and didn't post great post-season numbers. Definite Hall of Famer, based on his career totals and his yearly top 5 performances, but he is a prime example of the problems we have when trying to rank "best ever".Longevity v. dominance. How much does each weigh in the equation?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

jwvdcw

Footballguy
I think he is a bit overrated. He makes spectacular plays and is fun to watch, but often absolutely kills his team's chance of winning. Montana, Marino, Elway....sure they wouldn't always win, but there were very few or no games in which you would say that they were the biggest reason that they lost. With Favre, there are a few games(the St Louis playoff game with 6 ints comes to mind) where you can say that Brett Favre was the biggest reason that the Packers lost. Imo, this hinders him from being mentioned in this class. I put Favre in the 2nd tier of all time greats along players like Moon, Cunningham, Tarkenton, and Aikman.Also, I'll echo the sentiment that Marino needs to be mentioned in your post.

 

jwvdcw

Footballguy
Favre, like Elway, never had a pure RB that could carry the load, thus forcing the QB to make plays. Until Terrell Davis showed up Elway had not won the "big game" all though his many comebacks are noted. Favre won the big game before Ahman Green showed up. This is a small comparison but should be noted.
True, but also note that in their Championship year, Green Bay had the #1 pass defense(amazing considering that teams often times were passing on them to catch up), #4 run defense, and #1 overall defense.
 

faede

Footballguy
I agree with the above. It's only because Favre is still active. After that, it depends on how long he plays. At his current pace, if he's still around for 3, maybe 4 years... he'd break a few of Marino's big records including the biggy, TD passes (would take him about 3 years at his current pace.Green Bay is a young and improving team. I just don't see him hanging them up too soon. A few more seasons and a few more playoff runs will only add to the mystique that is Brett Favre. I believe when he retires, he will be retiring as the best QB to ever play the game and one of the best players in NFL history.

 

3 Time MVP #4

Footballguy
Favre currently ranks fifth all-time with 45,646 passing yards and is within sight of Dan Marino's record 420 TD passes (Favre currently ranks #2 with 346).

Three-time NFL MVP, he led the Packers to Super Bowl victory in 1996.
With a career record of 115-58, holds the third-highest winning percentage (.665) among starting QBs who have begun their careers since the 1970 league merger (min. 100 starts)
Has started 173 consecutive games (190 including playoffs), which is an NFL record for a quarterback
Ranks fifth all-time in passer rating at 86.7; only the Rams' Kurt Warner (98.2) and a trio of 49er QBs - Steve Young (96.8), Joe Montana (92.3) and Jeff Garcia (89.9) - are listed ahead
Voted to his seventh Pro Bowl in 2002
This is a good start, and I'm too lazy to dig up stats. So let's talk about what he means as a player to the success of his team, what he means to football fans in Green Bay and everywhere, he's a throwback, a smashmouth winner, who continues to enjoy the game as a child does.My opinion is biased as I have bled green and gold from day one, but I find comparisons to Warren Moon laughable and words like overrated and 2nd tier ridiculous.

My .02

 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
...I find comparisons to Warren Moon laughable and words like overrated and 2nd tier ridiculous.
I agree. I mentioned dominance, and I think that three consecutive MVP awards goes a long way in showing how dominant he was over the competition. Five straight years of 30+ TD passes, seven total. Eight consecutive years of 3800+ yards. This guy was not a flash in the pan. It's pretty sad that the two QBs drafted ahead of him were Dan McGwire and Todd Marinovich. We all saw how the Raider Nation latched on to Jon Gruden, the personality. Imagine if they had drafted Favre instead of Marinovich.
 

Native

Footballguy
I rate Favre ahead of Elway on this list because I feel he was a better pocket passer and a more prolific "thrower". Elway won some big games early in his career when the AFC was considered weak, but was usually xploited in the Super Bowl against the true giants. Also, the "legend" he built with all his late comebacks is somewhat flawed imo, in part because he was often inconsistent in the first three quarters of games - thats why he had to make a comeback in the first place. The other great QB's on this list were ususally unstoppabble for four qaurters. People forget that Elway was almost benched half way through his career. Heres my list of modern QB's. Im not going to rate Qb's that Ive never seen play, so Otto Graham and Sammy Baugh will not be on the 1) Steve Young - the greatest combination of athleticism, QB talent and big game ability in modern football. He ran the 49ers offense better than Montana, and thats saying something.2) Dan Marino - Beofre he became old and inneffective, was the best pure passer in history. Never had a Defense OR a running game like any of the QB's in the top 5. What if...3) Joe Montana - 4 super bowls, cool under pressure and always hit players in stride. However, he was not nearly as talented as the others. 4) Brett Favre - A winner for his entire carreer, LED his team to a Super Bowl and has gaudy statistics - not because of longevity, but because he was a dominant playmaker. Had a five year stretch that was as brilliant as any in NFL history.5) John Elway - Streaky, and a bit overrated in my book. Noone remembers how much he struggled midway thorugh his career, almost being benched at one point in favor of Gary Kubiak. His Super Bowl wins at the end of his career were more because of Terrell Davis and a tough Defense than his stellar play. 6) Peyton Manning - Could be the best of all time if he leads his team to a few Super Bowls. Already has more 4000 yard seasons than any QB in history and hes just now entering his prime. If he wins even one Super Bowl, push him into the top 3.

 

BoltBacker

Footballguy
In my opinion, the best way to determine just who is better that who, I plug them into each other's situation. Do they sink or swim....For example:Elway vs. Montana....you put Montana in Elway's situation and he never makes it to 1997. The punishment inflicted on Elway...ends Montana's career much sooner.....Elway, on the other hand, breaks every record in the book!
I don't agree with that. Elways strengths wouldn't have complimented the west coast offense nearly as much as Montanas strengths did. Elway didn't have nearly the accuracy or decision making skills Montana demonstrated. If Montana would have been in DEN he wouldn't have taken all the punishment Elway did. He would have gotten rid of the ball sooner and would have tip-toed out of bounds instead of diving head first like Elway.
 

BoltBacker

Footballguy
Montana, Marino, Elway....sure they wouldn't always win, but there were very few or no games in which you would say that they were the biggest reason that they lost. With Favre, there are a few games(the St Louis playoff game with 6 ints comes to mind) where you can say that Brett Favre was the biggest reason that the Packers lost. Imo, this hinders him from being mentioned in this class.
People overestimate just how good Elway was for the first half of his career. In his first 10 seasons he only had a QB ranking higher than 80 once, and that was in a season he only played 12 games. Favre by comarison has only had a qb rating below 85 three times in his career(excluding the "lost year" in ATL) and his durability is undeniable.ElwayTD - 300INT - 226FavreTD - 346INT - 209Favre may have 6 INT games on occasion, but for every 6 INT's he throws he also throws 10 TD's.
 

Native

Footballguy
People overestimate just how good Elway was for the first half of his career. In his first 10 seasons he only had a QB ranking higher than 80 once, and that was in a season he only played 12 games.
Exactly. As I daid in the post above, he was even in danger of being benched at one point in his middle of his career when things became really bad in Denver. Such a thing NEVER happened to Favre - especially not in his "prime" years.
 

Sinrman

Footballguy
Granted this is a Favre vs. Elway thread, and both will easily get into Canton, but you can't always go strictly by the #'s either. Both of these incredible QBs could easily get into the HoF strictly on #'s, but it was their leadership abilities, uncanny ability to lead their team back after being down, how good they were for the NFL in general, and many many other intangibles, that will lead these two into the NFL.If we went strictly by the #'s, ones like Vinny Testaverde would make it into the HoF. I mean come on, he just passed the great Joe Montana on the all time list of passing yards!

 

Bri

Footballguy
Favre (or Elway for that matter) better than Marino? Why, because they have won Super Bowls? I remember when Elway's greatness wasn't recognized because he couldnt close the deal in the big game. Then, a guy named TD came along and guess what, 2 Super Bowls for Elway and now he is one of the best all of a sudden?
when ya add up all those losses, he made it to the supe likely more often than any other QB
 

mudshark

Footballguy
6) Peyton Manning - Could be the best of all time if he leads his team to a few Super Bowls. Already has more 4000 yard seasons than any QB in history and hes just now entering his prime. If he wins even one Super Bowl, push him into the top 3.
Agreed that Manning is a great regular season QB. Win a few Super Bowls? Let's start with one, that's *one* playoff win. Talking about him as a one of the best ever is premature considering his post season stats alone (at the moment) are enough to keep him out of the HoF, imo. Consider:He's 0-3, completed just 47.2% of his passes for an average of 186 yds/game, and has thrown only 1 post season TD. Overall post-season QB rating: 58.6 And I believe he's had both EJames and MHarrison for all 3 of his post-season appearances. Today he gets another chance to reverse this trend. Can he do it, or will he choke again? But let him win just 1 friggin' playoff game before we talk about him as one of the best ever, please?Link to my stats:http://football.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsi...anning18.com%2F
 

BGP

Indians Fever
The nice thing about dicussing Favre vs Elway is that I've had the chance of see both of these QBs actually play, so I can throw out the stats and discuss the things that stats don't keep track of:1. Pocket presence Elway would sometimes get flustered if he had to stand in the pocket, as if he was either thinking too much or couldn't tell if a defender was about to hit him from the blindside. THAT was where he started making all his mistakes and throw into triple coverage and get visibly frustrated. It would sometimes get aggravated if he got punched in the mouth and rattled early. Oddly enough, it was on plays where he scrambled or rolled out that he played his best football. It was almost as if it didn't give him time to overthink the situation, allowed him to see any and all defenders chasing him, and therefore he just made the play.Favre has superior field vision. He can sit in the pocket, view the field quickly, and hit whoever is the open man. Kinda sucks for fantasy purposes because WR stats always get so spread around, but that is how you are supposed to play the QB position. 2. Arm strengthBoth of these guys had cannons. Off the top of my head they had two of the strongest arms in my years of watching.3. Touch passingElway would blow hot and cold, especially if he was having one of his flustered days. Favre sits in that west coast offense and is a bit better at it.4. MobilityBoth guys could scramble. On the run, I haven't seen a QB better at throwing across his body than Elway. Like I say, it was when he had to be a pocket passer that he could start stinking it up. Great for highlight films, too. Favre was no slouch, either. But I have to give Elway the nod here.These to me are the 4 things I look at when I'm grading a QB on the field. Overall, Elway only wins the Mobility category. Favre wins the pocket prescence and Touch Passing category, and Arm Strength ends in a tie.Winner: Bret Favre

 
Last edited by a moderator:

smlevin

Footballguy
As a lifelong Dolphan, and a Marino jock sniffer since his rookie year, I can't get sucked too deeply into this debate as I did it way too many times with Denver fans after Elway won the big one in regards to ranking Elway, Marino and Montana. Suffice to say, there is not a single objective criteria, outside of championship rings, that anyone can point to to keep Marino from the top-5, and EVERY SINGLE OTHER objective criteria that would elevate Elway and/or Montana above Marino, keeps that QB below other "champ. winning" QBs. Finally, as pointed out, in regards to both pure victories, winning percentages, 4th Q, comebacks, and 2-minute drill wins, Elway and Marino are WAY AT THE TOP of those lists. Those two guys won more often, and willed their teams to wins more often, than any other QBs in the history of the game.I take my hat off to Montana as the winningest QB of the modern era in terms of championships, and he deserves top-5 mention. Otto Graham won more often than any other QB to ever play the game, so he deserves a spot in the top-5. After that, there is not a single objective criteria, outside of championships won, to clearly distinguish the remaining guys. Which means, in my eyes, Marino comes in #3 behind those guys. Everyone else, get in line behind him however you feel like it.Elway > Favre in ranking, IMO. Favre will likely end with greater stats since Elway was really not much of a QB in the first three quarters of most games, but Elway has way more "it" than Favre - and is the comeback kid - since they equal out in championships at 2 each, edge to the guy with a more proven Winner's history and that's Elway.BTW - Montana was not the master of the 4th Q comeback - that distinction belongs squarely with Elway and Marino. Montana had the magical "it" to win. He won some big comeback CHAMPIONSHIPS - the Catch in the NFC Champ, the S.B. victory over the Bengals - but Marino and Elway are the 4th Q comeback and 2 minute drill kings - they are very close to each other statistically, and WAY out in front of the field.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mushu

Footballguy
The nice thing about dicussing Favre vs Elway is that I've had the chance of see both of these QBs actually play, so I can throw out the stats and discuss the things that stats don't keep track of:
LOL :lol: See...I TOLD you guys to turn on the TV when the Packers or the Broncos played!!Now NONE of us can say that we've seen them play...darn it.
 

smlevin

Footballguy
The nice thing about dicussing Favre vs Elway is that I've had the chance of see both of these QBs actually play, so I can throw out the stats and discuss the things that stats don't keep track of:
LOL :lol: See...I TOLD you guys to turn on the TV when the Packers or the Broncos played!!Now NONE of us can say that we've seen them play...darn it.
I know it's hilarious - WOW you've been watching the NFL for ten years!! I got to watch Tarkenton, Fouts, Bob Griese, play. Namath and Unitas were just ahead of my time (though I'm sure my Dad sat me in front of the TV at 4 years old to watch their epic S.B. 3). In short, I'd consider myeself a fairly decent evaluator of MODERN era NFL QBs (and RBs, WRs, etc), dating back to the early 70s. Someone else will have to fill me in on the Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham guys.
 

ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
Terrell Davis did?
LOL. If you want to discount Elway because he led his team to 2 straight Super Bowl victories, including one over Favre, just because he had some great talent around him, you must think that Montana sucked. I mean, come on. Let's try this: How many times was each of their teams the best team in their conference?
 

9664

Footballguy
In my opinion, the best way to determine just who is better that who, I plug them into each other's situation. Do they sink or swim....For example:Elway vs. Montana....you put Montana in Elway's situation and he never makes it to 1997. The punishment inflicted on Elway...ends Montana's career much sooner.....Elway, on the other hand, breaks every record in the book!
Your goofy hypothetical scenarios are a poor attempt to skirt the fact that Montana was victorious over Elway in the most LOPSIDED SUPER BOWL GAME IN NFL HISTORY. Montana was 22/29 for 297 yards and 5 TD's, Elway was 10/26 for 108 yards and 2 picks. If this were 1990, the question of "Is Elway better than Montana?" would be laughed at and dismissed. Only revisionists can argue otherwise. Montana won 4 Super Bowls throughout his career, Elway won two at the end. Elway is a great QB deserving of the HOF, but he is not the greatest QB of the modern era.To be the greatest, you must be great on the greatest stage in the sport. Like Jordan or Gretzky.
 

smlevin

Footballguy
LOL. If you want to discount Elway because he led his team to 2 straight Super Bowl victories, including one over Favre, just because he had some great talent around him, you must think that Montana sucked. I mean, come on. Let's try this: How many times was each of their teams the best team in their conference?
I agree with you ConstruxBoy - stupidest comment I've ever seen from Cracker, BTW.THE most famous highlight from that Super Bowl is John Elway diving into the end zone, going end over end, to score a TD to put the Pack away. That entire drive was vintage Elway. TDavis was big, of course, but it would be the same as discounting three of Montana's four Super Bowls by saying: "yeah, well, really Jerry Rice and Roger Craig and the defense won those."
 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
LOL. If you want to discount Elway because he led his team to 2 straight Super Bowl victories, including one over Favre, just because he had some great talent around him, you must think that Montana sucked. I mean, come on.

Let's try this: How many times was each of their teams the best team in their conference?
I agree with you ConstruxBoy - stupidest comment I've ever seen from Cracker, BTW.
I don't necessarily agree with what I said about Terrell Davis, but it's one that would be thrown out there. It's hard to discredit head-to-head.Too bad their paths didn't cross more often. Denver was dominant in the late 80's, before Favre came to prominance, while the Packers had to deal with San Francisco and Dallas during their dominant years.

'93 playoffs: Dallas beat Green Bay, Dallas beat San Francisco, Dallas wins Super Bowl

'94 playoffs: Dallas beats Green Bay, San Francisco beats Dallas, San Francisco wins Super Bowl

'95 playoffs: Green Bay beats San Francisco, Dallas beats Green Bay, Dallas wins Super Bowl

'96 playoffs: Green Bay beats San Francisco, Dallas gets knocked out by Carolina, Green Bay beats Carolina, Green Bay wins Super Bowl

'97 playoffs: Dallas is officially done (6-10), Green Bay beats San Francisco & loses to Denver in the Super Bowl

It's a very tough question and I like the discussion that this has fostered. I will say that I am a fan of Brett Favre's, and I like to see him do well. Never was a fan of Elway.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

smlevin

Footballguy
Those early Favre days were his "pendulum" days - he would get in big games and throw up costly picks. Had he not learned to control that, and he'd be a decent QB who had never won a championship, and would be like Fouts or Tarkenton.Head to head between Elway and Favre is kind of irrelevant b/c Favre is still making his history - if Favre wins another Super Bowl (highly likely with AGreen heading into his prime), and plays for three more years putting up good stats in the process, and gets to #2 on most important QB records - it wil be hard to not elevate him above Elway.

 

Mario Kart

Footballguy
'93 playoffs: Dallas beat Green Bay, Dallas beat San Francisco, Dallas wins Super Bowl

'94 playoffs: Dallas beats Green Bay, San Francisco beats Dallas, San Francisco wins Super Bowl

'95 playoffs: Green Bay beats San Francisco, Dallas beats Green Bay, Dallas wins Super Bowl

'96 playoffs: Green Bay beats San Francisco, Dallas gets knocked out by Carolina, Green Bay beats Carolina, Green Bay wins Super Bowl

'97 playoffs: Dallas is officially done (6-10), Green Bay beats San Francisco & loses to Denver in the Super Bowl
these are key stats. Green Bay and Favre had to battle the best of the best when they were at their best. Denver in the late 80's played in an inferior AFC conference thus making them the best of that conference but still probably only the 4th or maybe even 5th or 6th best team in the NFL. the AFC was a cakewalk in the 80's and early 90's and their defeats in the Superbowls prove this. Buffalo went 4 years in a row and were blown away in 3 of them.the competition Elway faced compared to the competition Favre faced early in their respected career has no comparison... Favre easily faced tougher opponents.

 

smlevin

Footballguy
'93 playoffs: Dallas beat Green Bay, Dallas beat San Francisco, Dallas wins Super Bowl

'94 playoffs: Dallas beats Green Bay, San Francisco beats Dallas, San Francisco wins Super Bowl

'95 playoffs: Green Bay beats San Francisco, Dallas beats Green Bay, Dallas wins Super Bowl

'96 playoffs: Green Bay beats San Francisco, Dallas gets knocked out by Carolina, Green Bay beats Carolina, Green Bay wins Super Bowl

'97 playoffs: Dallas is officially done (6-10), Green Bay beats San Francisco & loses to Denver in the Super Bowl
these are key stats. Green Bay and Favre had to battle the best of the best when they were at their best. Denver in the late 80's played in an inferior AFC conference thus making them the best of that conference but still probably only the 4th or maybe even 5th or 6th best team in the NFL. the AFC was a cakewalk in the 80's and early 90's and their defeats in the Superbowls prove this. Buffalo went 4 years in a row and were blown away in 3 of them.the competition Elway faced compared to the competition Favre faced early in their respected career has no comparison... Favre easily faced tougher opponents.
This is asinine commetary.Elways played for 16 years and faced some extremely tough competition over the years, and on his way to the Bowls.

 

ConstruxBoy

Kate's Daddy
I will say that I am a fan of Brett Favre's, and I like to see him do well. Never was a fan of Elway.
I'm the same way, FWIW. I like Favre and think he's great for the game. Hope he plays forever. However, short of another couple of SB runs, I can't imagine ever placing Favre ahead of Elway on my list. Just my opinion though. I think the top 5, in some order, are Baugh, Unitas, Montana, Marino and Elway.
 

smlevin

Footballguy
I'm the same way, FWIW. I like Favre and think he's great for the game. Hope he plays forever. However, short of another couple of SB runs, I can't imagine ever placing Favre ahead of Elway on my list. Just my opinion though. I think the top 5, in some order, are Baugh, Unitas, Montana, Marino and Elway.
That list w/o the winningest championship QB in th egame in Otto Graham is flawed.Even as a Marino fan, I realize that winning s what the QB position is all about, and that was what Graham brought.
 

BoltBacker

Footballguy
This is asinine commetary.Elways played for 16 years and faced some extremely tough competition over the years, and on his way to the Bowls.
I completely disagree, it's a valid point. The NFC was DOMINANT in the eighties and early nineties. It wasn't even close. It's kind of like in the NBA now. In my opinion if the Spurs repeat it will just add to their greatness the fact they had to come through the western conference. You have to give the hated lakers credit for beating quality team after quality team in the west to just get to the finals, let alone win. On the other hand, how can you give the Iversons and Jason Kidds of the world just as much credit for making the Finals when they are beating teams like Toronto, Milwuakee and Orlando in the playoffs every year? Put the Nets or Sixers in the west and they have to fight just to make the playoffs. Forget about making it through to the finals. The NFC was just as dominant in the NFL. Wasn't it common for people to joke that the NFC Championship was the real super bowl for a long stretch? Watching SF/DAL/GB battle it out was watching the best two teams in football and everyone knew it.
 

shmagu

Footballguy
How many of these "best ever" quarterbacks that have been mentioned have laid down for a sack? :rolleyes: That's when I lost respect for Brett Favre.

 

Maurile Tremblay

Administrator
Staff member
It's not easy to compare all the great QBs to one other since they all have different strengths and weaknesses.Dan Marino was the best pure passer I ever saw, but he was about as mobile as Drew Bledsoe. (Dan Fouts was similar to Marino in a lot of ways, including the great field-vision and ultra-quick release; and also the lack of mobility. Kurt Warner showed these same qualities during his best years as well.)Michael Vick is the best running QB ever. Steve Young probably had the best combination of running and passing skills.Brett Favre and John Elway had some of the stronger arms I've seen, and both were (are) great leaders.Joe Montana was a very accurate touch passer with a knack for coming through in the clutch. An underrated all-around athlete as well.Peyton Manning has classic size and pretty good arm strength, and is always very well prepared.If you had to pick one guy to run your offense, you could make a case for any of those guys. The QBs I most liked watching were Marino and Fouts.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jason Wood

Zoo York
Its cause he is stil active, who knows how much longer he will play, and how many more stats he will get, but i agree with you that he is one of the all time great QBs.
I would agree, with one additional caveat. It's because he's still alive and ACTIVE. Elway with his surefire induction into the HOF will start getting his due, and you can be sure that in ten years, Favre will be mentioned as one of the best, if not THE best to ever play the position.Cheers
 

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
Favre has never had a pure #1 WR.
Yeah, that Sterling Sharpe wasn't any good. And even though they had short reigns as top notch WR's, Robert Brooks and Antonio Freeman were pretty darn good too, albeit for a short time.
 

Mario Kart

Footballguy
Favre has never had a pure #1 WR.
Yeah, that Sterling Sharpe wasn't any good. And even though they had short reigns as top notch WR's, Robert Brooks and Antonio Freeman were pretty darn good too, albeit for a short time.
umm, Favre had Sharpe for all of about 1 season... early in Favre's career and the impact that Sharpe had on Favre was minimal in the grand scheme of Favre's career of over a decade.Brooks, Freeman, and now Driver all benefitted from Favre more than Favre benefitted from those WR's. anyone that has watched Packer games always knew Favre was Favre every game and those WR's were not the same every game. could Favre rely on them, sometimes, but where is Driver now, where was Freeman after his 1.5 years of success, where was Brooks after his couple of seasons??a pure #1 comes to play every year and show up every game... the Harrisons, Moss's, Owen's, and Rice's have showed up year after year and game after game... the WR's Favre has had the "luxary" of having show up for a year and go away. anyone who thinks Favre has had a pure #1 that he could rely on game in and game out is foolishly downplaying what Favre has done for the WR's he has played with.
 

smlevin

Footballguy
It's not easy to compare all the great QBs to one other since they all have different strengths and weaknesses.Dan Marino was the best pure passer I ever saw, but he was about as mobile as Drew Bledsoe. (Dan Fouts was similar to Marino in a lot of ways, including the great field-vision and ultra-quick release; and also the lack of mobility. Kurt Warner showed these same qualities during his best years as well.)Michael Vick is the best running QB ever. Steve Young probably had the best combination of running and passing skills.Brett Favre and John Elway had some of the stronger arms I've seen, and both were (are) great leaders.Joe Montana was a very accurate touch passer with a knack for coming through in the clutch. An underrated all-around athlete as well.Peyton Manning has classic size and pretty good arm strength, and is always very well prepared.If you had to pick one guy to run your offense, you could make a case for any of those guys. The QBs I most liked watching were Marino and Fouts.
I agree with your analysis here, Maurile, except for one point - Marino was not mobile outside the pocket, but he was the best QB EVER in the pocket. His footwork was amazing, he would make a DL with a bead on him miss with a simply shuffle and then the quick release would turn a sure sack into a 30-40 yard gain. Check out the number of times Marino was sacked versus the number of times he dropped back to throw the ball - it is a miniscule fraction.Manning has that, too - and it will be fiun watching him develop as it seems fairly clear he's already taken the mantle from Favre of best QB still in the game. It is no surprise that Manning has fashioned most of his NFL game after Dan Marino_On the arm strength, Elway and Favre have guns, but I'm sure it was just a mis-cue that you didn't mention Marino's (and Vicks') arm strength. One of the things that went with Marino's quick release was that there was no time between the ball leaving his hands and the ball entering the receiver's - one of the strongest arms ever. Also, darts - Dan was super accurate, probably the most accurate passer ever. Both he and Vick have that simple flick of the wrist and the ball is 50 yards downfield - Vick's has some loft, Dan's was on a line.Sorry to go off on the "Dan is best" rant, but when you start breaking down mechanics of the game, the only thing I believe Dan took a backseat on was running the ball - in every single other aspect of flinging the ball, Dan was the best to ever take a snap. If he had won two Super Bowls like Elway did, this would not even be a discussion - it woud be Marino and then everyone else. He is not simply the best "pure" passer, best he is the best passer ever, and one of the top two "on-field generals" ever (Elway was the other). He also read defenses better than anyone I've ever seen play the game.
 

Eric Stratton

Footballguy
How many of these "best ever" quarterbacks that have been mentioned have laid down for a sack? :rolleyes: That's when I lost respect for Brett Favre.
Good to see you have enough wisdom to overlook that one play for everything Favre has accomplished in his career. :rolleyes:
 
It's not easy to compare all the great QBs to one other since they all have different strengths and weaknesses.Dan Marino was the best pure passer I ever saw, but he was about as mobile as Drew Bledsoe. (Dan Fouts was similar to Marino in a lot of ways, including the great field-vision and ultra-quick release; and also the lack of mobility. Kurt Warner showed these same qualities during his best years as well.)Michael Vick is the best running QB ever. Steve Young probably had the best combination of running and passing skills.Brett Favre and John Elway had some of the stronger arms I've seen, and both were (are) great leaders.Joe Montana was a very accurate touch passer with a knack for coming through in the clutch. An underrated all-around athlete as well.Peyton Manning has classic size and pretty good arm strength, and is always very well prepared.If you had to pick one guy to run your offense, you could make a case for any of those guys. The QBs I most liked watching were Marino and Fouts.
I agree with your analysis here, Maurile, except for one point - Marino was not mobile outside the pocket, but he was the best QB EVER in the pocket. His footwork was amazing, he would make a DL with a bead on him miss with a simply shuffle and then the quick release would turn a sure sack into a 30-40 yard gain. Check out the number of times Marino was sacked versus the number of times he dropped back to throw the ball - it is a miniscule fraction.Manning has that, too - and it will be fiun watching him develop as it seems fairly clear he's already taken the mantle from Favre of best QB still in the game. It is no surprise that Manning has fashioned most of his NFL game after Dan Marino_On the arm strength, Elway and Favre have guns, but I'm sure it was just a mis-cue that you didn't mention Marino's (and Vicks') arm strength. One of the things that went with Marino's quick release was that there was no time between the ball leaving his hands and the ball entering the receiver's - one of the strongest arms ever. Also, darts - Dan was super accurate, probably the most accurate passer ever. Both he and Vick have that simple flick of the wrist and the ball is 50 yards downfield - Vick's has some loft, Dan's was on a line.Sorry to go off on the "Dan is best" rant, but when you start breaking down mechanics of the game, the only thing I believe Dan took a backseat on was running the ball - in every single other aspect of flinging the ball, Dan was the best to ever take a snap. If he had won two Super Bowls like Elway did, this would not even be a discussion - it woud be Marino and then everyone else. He is not simply the best "pure" passer, best he is the best passer ever, and one of the top two "on-field generals" ever (Elway was the other). He also read defenses better than anyone I've ever seen play the game.
yeah smelvin but he doesn't have those rings.The greatest Qb ever was Joe Montana and I hated him. He made the clutch throws in the big games. QB's aren't just measured by arm stregth and running ability. Leadership is a huge deal.When you're in the huddle and you've got 10 faces looking at you for the play and you have to execute it, that's what football's all about.Nobody was better than Joe Montana
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top