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Broncos hosed Atlanta (1 Viewer)

Z-Dog

Footballguy
When I heard that the Broncos traded up from 1.15 to 1.29 with the Falcons, I was surprised to hear that all the Broncos paid was 3.29 and a 4th next year. That seemed kind of cheap. A 4th rounder next year is roughly equal to a 5th rounder this year from a value perspective.

According to the first chart, the 1.15 is worth 1,050 points. 1.29 is worth 640, 3.29 is worth 128, and let's say that the 5th rounder is 5.01, just for argument's sake, and is worth 43 points.

Denver got 1,050 points. Atlanta got 640+128+43 = 811 points. Pick 1.21 is worth 800 points.

The difference between the two is 239 points, or an early 3rd round pick (3.06, say), which is a huge amount of extra value for the team that's trading up to walk away with!

Atlanta really dropped the ball here, giving up way too much to Denver. :thumbdown:

 
Still can't quite understand why the JEts didn't just throw Atlanta their own 3rd and a 4th next year - better value for Atlanta and higher pick for the Jets. Makes me think that the JEts wanted #29 for a reason - that and the #4 comes very close to NO's #2. If you believe the NY media that was the goal of the Abe trade. Leinart a Jet?

 
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This has anothe thread, but one point makes sense to me here.

Atlanta needed to find a trading partner with a lower 1st, nobody else apparently was biting. Denver capitilized on a situation.

Alternatively, Atlanta could have waited and lost out on Abraham, or tried to find something that worked with the Jets, but apparently that wasn't working.

 
That was my thought as well. Denver has a good shot at being a playoff team again and shouldn't have a pick below 20. Late 3rd and 4th round picks next year probably won't net them much at all unless they get lucky.

 
Still can't quite understand why the JEts didn't just throw Atlanta their own 3rd and a 4th next year - better value for Atlanta and higher pick for the Jets. Makes me think that the JEts wanted #29 for a reason - that and the #4 comes very close to NO's #2. If you believe the NY media that was the goal of the Abe trade. Leinart a Jet?
Fair enough, although the Jets need as many picks as possible. They probably could have moved down on draft day, but for whatever reason chose not to risk it.
 
Still can't quite understand why the JEts didn't just throw Atlanta their own 3rd and a 4th next year - better value for Atlanta and higher pick for the Jets. Makes me think that the JEts wanted #29 for a reason - that and the #4 comes very close to NO's #2. If you believe the NY media that was the goal of the Abe trade. Leinart a Jet?
They probably value their 3rd and 4th round picks a lot more since they figure to be bad this year and the Broncos are a playoff team.
 
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When I heard that the Broncos traded up from 1.15 to 1.29 with the Falcons, I was surprised to hear that all the Broncos paid was 3.29 and a 4th next year. That seemed kind of cheap. A 4th rounder next year is roughly equal to a 5th rounder this year from a value perspective.

According to the first chart, the 1.15 is worth 1,050 points. 1.29 is worth 640, 3.29 is worth 128, and let's say that the 5th rounder is 5.01, just for argument's sake, and is worth 43 points.

Denver got 1,050 points. Atlanta got 640+128+43 = 811 points. Pick 1.21 is worth 800 points.

The difference between the two is 239 points, or an early 3rd round pick (3.06, say), which is a huge amount of extra value for the team that's trading up to walk away with!

Atlanta really dropped the ball here, giving up way too much to Denver. :thumbdown:
Yeap. Denver raped Atlanta in this trade big time.WOOT!!!!

 
This may have been a money deal in which ATL feels they can get a quality player late and also don't have to pay as much.

 
When I heard that the Broncos  traded up from 1.15 to 1.29 with the Falcons, I was surprised to hear that all the Broncos paid was 3.29 and a 4th next year. That seemed kind of cheap. A 4th rounder next year is roughly equal to a 5th rounder this year from a value perspective.

According to the first chart, the 1.15 is worth 1,050 points. 1.29 is worth 640, 3.29 is worth 128, and let's say that the 5th rounder is 5.01, just for argument's sake, and is worth 43 points.

Denver got 1,050 points. Atlanta got 640+128+43 = 811 points. Pick 1.21 is worth 800 points.

The difference between the two is 239 points, or an early 3rd round pick (3.06, say), which is a huge amount of extra value for the team that's trading up to walk away with!

Atlanta really dropped the ball here, giving up way too much to Denver.  :thumbdown:
Yeap. Denver raped Atlanta in this trade big time.WOOT!!!!
How can you judge a trade off a 3yr old posting by Gil Brandt. Do you really think NFL GM's log on to NFL.com and check Gil's chart before they make a deal? Don't you think it changes year to year and every team has their own method or chart to gauge the value of the picks.
 
This may have been a money deal in which ATL feels they can get a quality player late and also don't have to pay as much.
:goodposting: I expect this pick to be used on a lineman that will fit Gibbs' scheme.

 
When I heard that the Broncos  traded up from 1.15 to 1.29 with the Falcons, I was surprised to hear that all the Broncos paid was 3.29 and a 4th next year. That seemed kind of cheap. A 4th rounder next year is roughly equal to a 5th rounder this year from a value perspective.

According to the first chart, the 1.15 is worth 1,050 points. 1.29 is worth 640, 3.29 is worth 128, and let's say that the 5th rounder is 5.01, just for argument's sake, and is worth 43 points.

Denver got 1,050 points. Atlanta got 640+128+43 = 811 points. Pick 1.21 is worth 800 points.

The difference between the two is 239 points, or an early 3rd round pick (3.06, say), which is a huge amount of extra value for the team that's trading up to walk away with!

Atlanta really dropped the ball here, giving up way too much to Denver.  :thumbdown:
Yeap. Denver raped Atlanta in this trade big time.WOOT!!!!
How can you judge a trade off a 3yr old posting by Gil Brandt. Do you really think NFL GM's log on to NFL.com and check Gil's chart before they make a deal? Don't you think it changes year to year and every team has their own method or chart to gauge the value of the picks.
I'm sure it fluctuates a bit based on the team and the year but not 200+ points worth.Fact is according to the chart the Broncos received 1050 points in value while giving up 838. Even with changes to the chart it won't change that much. Plus the 2007 draft is already considered weaker then this year's draft. They moved up 14 draft spots by giving up a late third and a late fourth.

That is a steal.

 
When I heard that the Broncos  traded up from 1.15 to 1.29 with the Falcons, I was surprised to hear that all the Broncos paid was 3.29 and a 4th next year. That seemed kind of cheap. A 4th rounder next year is roughly equal to a 5th rounder this year from a value perspective.

According to the first chart, the 1.15 is worth 1,050 points. 1.29 is worth 640, 3.29 is worth 128, and let's say that the 5th rounder is 5.01, just for argument's sake, and is worth 43 points.

Denver got 1,050 points. Atlanta got 640+128+43 = 811 points. Pick 1.21 is worth 800 points.

The difference between the two is 239 points, or an early 3rd round pick (3.06, say), which is a huge amount of extra value for the team that's trading up to walk away with!

Atlanta really dropped the ball here, giving up way too much to Denver.  :thumbdown:
Yeap. Denver raped Atlanta in this trade big time.WOOT!!!!
How can you judge a trade off a 3yr old posting by Gil Brandt. Do you really think NFL GM's log on to NFL.com and check Gil's chart before they make a deal? Don't you think it changes year to year and every team has their own method or chart to gauge the value of the picks.
I'm sure it fluctuates a bit based on the team and the year but not 200+ points worth.Fact is according to the chart the Broncos received 1050 points in value while giving up 838. Even with changes to the chart it won't change that much. Plus the 2007 draft is already considered weaker then this year's draft. They moved up 14 draft spots by giving up a late third and a late fourth.

That is a steal.
The chart is a reference for fans. If you believe that is what teams use then it's a steal. Im not buying it .
 
When I heard that the Broncos traded up from 1.15 to 1.29 with the Falcons, I was surprised to hear that all the Broncos paid was 3.29 and a 4th next year. That seemed kind of cheap. A 4th rounder next year is roughly equal to a 5th rounder this year from a value perspective.
That's not right. This year's draft is unusually deep. Next years will be typical. So getting a third this year is like getting a second in an ordinary year. Next year's 4th is not like a fifth this year (it has nothing to do with this year), it's like a fourth in an ordinary year. You have to look at what each team gets and gives.

Atlanta gets John Abraham, a 3rd this year (worth more than a typical 3rd), and 4th next year.

Atlanta gives their 1st this year.

Denver gets a mid first this year.

Denver gives a late first this year, a 3rd this year and a fourth next year.

Jets get a late first this year.

Jets give John Abraham.

There's no way to judge this deal until we see how Abraham performs, who Atlanta drafts, who Denver drafts, and who New York drafts and how they all perform. If Atlanta gets three or four elite seasons from Abraham then he was worth the mid-first, and the additional picks are gravy for them.

 
When I heard that the Broncos traded up from 1.15 to 1.29 with the Falcons, I was surprised to hear that all the Broncos paid was 3.29 and a 4th next year. That seemed kind of cheap. A 4th rounder next year is roughly equal to a 5th rounder this year from a value perspective.

According to the first chart, the 1.15 is worth 1,050 points. 1.29 is worth 640, 3.29 is worth 128, and let's say that the 5th rounder is 5.01, just for argument's sake, and is worth 43 points.

Denver got 1,050 points. Atlanta got 640+128+43 = 811 points. Pick 1.21 is worth 800 points.

The difference between the two is 239 points, or an early 3rd round pick (3.06, say), which is a huge amount of extra value for the team that's trading up to walk away with!

Atlanta really dropped the ball here, giving up way too much to Denver. :thumbdown:
Yeap. Denver raped Atlanta in this trade big time.WOOT!!!!
How can you judge a trade off a 3yr old posting by Gil Brandt. Do you really think NFL GM's log on to NFL.com and check Gil's chart before they make a deal? Don't you think it changes year to year and every team has their own method or chart to gauge the value of the picks.
I'm sure it fluctuates a bit based on the team and the year but not 200+ points worth.Fact is according to the chart the Broncos received 1050 points in value while giving up 838. Even with changes to the chart it won't change that much. Plus the 2007 draft is already considered weaker then this year's draft. They moved up 14 draft spots by giving up a late third and a late fourth.

That is a steal.
The chart is a reference for fans. If you believe that is what teams use then it's a steal. Im not buying it .
Fair enough - if you think the chart is BS, then it doesn't prove anything to you. That said, can we compare to some recent trades? Last year, Denver traded it's first rounder to Washington in exchange for 3.12 that year and a 1st and a 4th this year. That's like an early 2nd, 3rd, and 5th in the same year for a late first. Here, it's moving halfway up the first round for a late first, a late third, and a fifth. That to me is less value given up for a bigger move up the draft board.
 
Fair enough - if you think the chart is BS, then it doesn't prove anything to you. That said, can we compare to some recent trades? Last year, Denver traded it's first rounder to Washington in exchange for 3.12 that year and a 1st and a 4th this year. That's like an early 2nd, 3rd, and 5th in the same year for a late first. Here, it's moving halfway up the first round for a late first, a late third, and a fifth. That to me is less value given up for a bigger move up the draft board.
This year's late 3rd is like a late second, next years 4th isn't a 5th, it's a 4th.
 
Fair enough - if you think the chart is BS, then it doesn't prove anything to you. That said, can we compare to some recent trades? Last year, Denver traded it's first rounder to Washington in exchange for 3.12 that year and a 1st and a 4th this year. That's like an early 2nd, 3rd, and 5th in the same year for a late first. Here, it's moving halfway up the first round for a late first, a late third, and a fifth. That to me is less value given up for a bigger move up the draft board.
This year's late 3rd is like a late second, next years 4th isn't a 5th, it's a 4th.
Generally, future picks are worth less than current picks.
 
slimflop wrote:

How can you judge a trade off a 3yr old posting by Gil Brandt. Do you really think NFL GM's log on to NFL.com and check Gil's chart before they make a deal?
Yeah, actually I do. I've seen ESPN shots from the Dallas war room showing Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones consulting the chart. It's been around for years. And Denver hosed Atlanta.
 
Atlanta really dropped the ball here, giving up way too much to Denver. :thumbdown:
You are trying to apply ff draft tactis to the NFL. You are also missing the bigger pictutr.It has already been mentioned, but it bears repeating. New York has a deal in principal in place with Seattle. The will get pick 31 for Abraham. They let it be known to other teams that that they will not trade him for less than that. Atlanta wants Abraham, and believes that he is worth parting with a first to get. Their pick is 15. They might be willing to trade that straight up, but they have a good idra. "What if we trade back as far as possible, but still in front of 31. That way, rather than just Abraham for 15, we can have picks and players."Unfortunately for Atlanta, many GM's seem to se a drop after pick 12-14. If this is the case, yhen most would agtee that you can get a similiar player at 1.29 that you could at 1.15. You can also have that player cheaper at 1.29 and not have to part with future picks. The big pay-off for trading back does not happen now, it happens on draft day, when a player that a team has valued significantly higher than everyone else is still on the board and doesn't figure to be on there much longer. One team willing to trade now was Denver. Atlanta had to move or risk losing Abraham.

So, if you want to say that Abraham isn't worth 1.15- fine. However, that's what this trade was about. To try to frame it in any other context is silly.

 
Yeah, actually I do. I've seen ESPN shots from the Dallas war room showing Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones consulting the chart. It's been around for years.

And Denver hosed Atlanta.
This may come as a bit of a shock, but Jimmy hasn't been part of the Cowboys' war room in THIRTEEN years. If your argument is that this chart isn't outdated, this may not have been your best evidence.
 
Technically didn't the Jets actually get hosed on this one? Why would they not just trade Abraham for the 1.15?

 
I think Atlanta was probably willing to give up their 15th (which is silly if you ask me for the money Abraham wants) and said we could still make the trade with teh Jets by giving a 29 so why not pick up some draft picks to get it done? It makes sense if you really want Abraham, they gave the minimum to the Jets and had to accept a little less value for allowing Denver to move up so that they could make the deal. In their minds they picked up a 3rd and 4th for "nothing"

 
Atlanta was also willing to give up their first round pick when they signed Peerless Price a few years ago. Unlike a lot of teams these days, Atlanta still values a good veteran more than their first round pick. I remember when a team would trade 2 or 3 first round picks for one veteran.

 
This has anothe thread, but one point makes sense to me here.

Atlanta needed to find a trading partner with a lower 1st, nobody else apparently was biting. Denver capitilized on a situation.

Alternatively, Atlanta could have waited and lost out on Abraham, or tried to find something that worked with the Jets, but apparently that wasn't working.
Right Place, Right Time, Right Solution.And just to think, it all made possible due to WAS having to have Jason Campbell.

:popcorn:

 
You could look at it this way. Maybe Atlanta knew that they really wanted Abraham and would have eventually caved in and gave the Jets pick #15 if necessary. By trading with Denver at least they got a third rounder and a fourth next year out of the deal.

 
I don't see a problem for any of the teams involved here.

1) Would Atlanta have gotten a better player at #15 than Abraham? Not a chance. And DE was an area of ABSOLUTE need for the Falcons. After (apparently) shoring up the safety position, the D-line was then next highest priority. And they got one of the premier d-ends in the game.

2) Would the Jets have been able to get more than the #29 for Abraham? Maybe, but likely not, otherwise they would have done just such a thing.

3) The Broncos are the big winner, of course. Trading some mid-round picks and an extra 1st to move up into the middle of an outstanding draft class? Major coup here.

Everyone got at least part of what they wanted. Whether one team got better of the deal than another remains to be seen. As a latent Broncos fan from the Elway era, I'm excited to see what they do with that #15. My money is on Lendale White. If he's gone, Chad Jackson.

 
Technically didn't the Jets actually get hosed on this one? Why would they not just trade Abraham for the 1.15?
The Jets got worked by both ATL & DEN in this one, but they didn't have much recourse.NY was going to lose Abraham one way or the other, and the only viable offer on the table was SEA's #31 pick. By trading with ATL, they at least moved up two spots. That was probably the best they could do - and you can't ask for more than that given the circumstances.

ATL did well in the trade - they gave up the #15 pick, but they got a premier pass rusher & two middle rounds picks. I don't see where they got screwed in the deal at all. They got a sure thing in Abraham at DE, which is going to make their pass D loads better, and they gained a couple of picks in the process. Why would they send the #15 pick directly to NY for Abraham when they could gain two midrounders by including DEN in the deal? That's good trading for them.

DEN really wins out, though. They moved up 14 slots in the first round for the cost of a couple of midround picks - and they are figuring to gain at least 1 and maybe two compensatory picks at the end of the 3rd round this year. That's really good trading right there.

Looks like everyone won in this one. The Jets got screwed on value for Abraham, but at least they got something significant for him, which they didn't figure to get earlier. They have to log that as a W, despite taking a hit. ATL got a stud pass rusher - a sure thing at DE, which is better than the value they would have gotten at the position at #15 in the draft, plus they gained 2 midrounders. DEN really took the opportunity & ran with it - they rank as the top winners in the deal, but all teams did well given the circumstances.

 
You could look at it this way. Maybe Atlanta knew that they really wanted Abraham and would have eventually caved in and gave the Jets pick #15 if necessary. By trading with Denver at least they got a third rounder and a fourth next year out of the deal.
Exactly. This situation is a bit different. Most of these trades involving the chart happen on draft day, and I believe that Atlanta would get more for that pick if they were on the clock, as some team decided it needed to move up for a certain player.Right now, it's in the abstract, with no one knowing who will be there at 15 for sure.

Atlanta needed to get this deal done, there's no guarantee that Abraham wouldn't have warmed to Seattle, or that another team wouldn't have stepped up.

The Jets wanted a 1st rounder, the Falcons felt 15 was too high. So they picked up a 3rd and a 4th, and yeah, going by that chart, they should've maybe got more, but they also got more of a known quantity in Abraham.

Yeah, Denver made a good deal, and Atlanta received a bit less than they might have on draft day, but was it a raping, or a hosing, or whatever? I don't really think so.

I think there's a general rush to declare someone a winner and a loser in every trade, I think all teams did well in this deal, personally.

 
Why didn't the Jets deal directly with Atlanta. Give Abraham, their 3rd and their 4th for 1.15 and cut Denver right out of it?

Instead Denver gets to unload the later picks to move up. Only thing that makes sense is that the Jets don't see anyone they want at 1.15 and would rather keep that 3rd and 4th. Even if this is the case they should have done it, and traded 1.15 on draft day when they could have gotten more for it.

 
Why didn't the Jets deal directly with Atlanta. Give Abraham, their 3rd and their 4th for 1.15 and cut Denver right out of it?

Instead Denver gets to unload the later picks to move up. Only thing that makes sense is that the Jets don't see anyone they want at 1.15 and would rather keep that 3rd and 4th. Even if this is the case they should have done it, and traded 1.15 on draft day when they could have gotten more for it.
Additional picks for a team with as many holes as the Jets is huge. They couldn't afford to give up 2 midrounders along with Abraham for the 15th pick. Instead they still got into the first round, which is big for them, and they kept the midrounders, which they are really going to need.If a team is only a couple of players away from being a serious contender, or if they want to remain a serious contender, a couple of midrounders is nothing to pay to move up. If a team is rebuilding and has a lot of needs, the midrounders are very significant.

 
Why didn't the Jets deal directly with Atlanta.  Give Abraham, their 3rd and their 4th for 1.15 and cut Denver right out of it?

Instead Denver gets to unload the later picks to move up.  Only thing that makes sense is that the Jets don't see anyone they want at 1.15 and would rather keep that 3rd and 4th.  Even if this is the case they should have done it, and traded 1.15 on draft day when they could have gotten more for it.
Additional picks for a team with as many holes as the Jets is huge. They couldn't afford to give up 2 midrounders along with Abraham for the 15th pick. Instead they still got into the first round, which is big for them, and they kept the midrounders, which they are really going to need.If a team is only a couple of players away from being a serious contender, or if they want to remain a serious contender, a couple of midrounders is nothing to pay to move up. If a team is rebuilding and has a lot of needs, the midrounders are very significant.
NY SPECULATION - All they needed is the #29 to combine with the #4 to trade up with NO (#2) for Leinart. Rather keep the mid rders.
 

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