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Broncos Moving Past "Ghost of Elway" (1 Viewer)

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Broncos Finally Able to Move Away From Ghost of Elway

Denver Should Be Able to Advance in Postseason With Plummer at Helm

By IRA MILLER, AOL

Jeff Chiu, AP

Jake Plummer's prowess should be enough to finally get the Broncos further in the playoffs without John Elway at quarterback.

The four first-round byes in the playoffs have been clinched -- Indianapolis, Denver, Seattle, Chicago -- but a lively race remains for three open wild-card spots. You almost have to wonder, however, why teams still bother.

In 15 years since the NFL added two teams to the playoffs in 1990, increasing the number of participants to six in each conference, no fifth- or sixth-seeded team has been able to reach the Super Bowl because the task of winning three road games in the playoffs is so monumental.

Only the 1985 New England Patriots got to the Super Bowl by winning three road games in the playoffs. And, since the league began awarding playoff byes in 1978, only seven teams - of the 54 in 27 Super Bowls - managed to get to the final game without the benefit of a bye week. Six of them, all except the Patriots, at least began the playoff run at home.

Jacksonville is the only team that has so far clinched a wild-card spot, and the reward for the Jaguars may be a trip to Foxboro and an early exit. Pittsburgh is a near-lock for the other AFC wild-card spot, but the NFC's two spots still are up for grabs.

Denver finally is good enough to win a playoff game without John Elway.

Almost forgot that, didn't you? The Broncos, after all their past Super Bowl traumas, won back-to-back championships in 1997 and 1998. Then Elway retired, Terrell Davis got hurt, and Mike Shanahan's genius reputation got a little bit tarnished.

The Broncos have not won a playoff game since then.

But this year, with quarterback Jake Plummer playing under control, with a good, young defense, with the team's usual strong running game, and with a first-round bye and a home game in the playoffs following an 8-0 season at home, Denver appears in shape finally to win in January again.

And the reward for that victory could be another trip to Indianapolis, where the Broncos' last two seasons ended in playoff defeats by a combined score of 90-34.

Denver believes its quick, young secondary is better prepared to handle the Colts than it was in those last two playoff games, but that still looks to be a very difficult task.

At any rate, this is the Broncos' best chance since the Elway era ended, with Plummer finally playing like the quarterback he was envisioned to be when he came into the NFL nearly a decade ago.

12/26/05 8:10AM EDT

 
Broncos Finally Able to Move Away From Ghost of Elway

Denver Should Be Able to Advance in Postseason With Plummer at Helm

By IRA MILLER, AOL

Jeff Chiu, AP

Jake Plummer's prowess should be enough to finally get the Broncos further in the playoffs without John Elway at quarterback.

The four first-round byes in the playoffs have been clinched -- Indianapolis, Denver, Seattle, Chicago -- but a lively race remains for three open wild-card spots. You almost have to wonder, however, why teams still bother.

In 15 years since the NFL added two teams to the playoffs in 1990, increasing the number of participants to six in each conference, no fifth- or sixth-seeded team has been able to reach the Super Bowl because the task of winning three road games in the playoffs is so monumental.

Only the 1985 New England Patriots got to the Super Bowl by winning three road games in the playoffs. And, since the league began awarding playoff byes in 1978, only seven teams - of the 54 in 27 Super Bowls - managed to get to the final game without the benefit of a bye week. Six of them, all except the Patriots, at least began the playoff run at home.

Jacksonville is the only team that has so far clinched a wild-card spot, and the reward for the Jaguars may be a trip to Foxboro and an early exit. Pittsburgh is a near-lock for the other AFC wild-card spot, but the NFC's two spots still are up for grabs.

Denver finally is good enough to win a playoff game without John Elway.

Almost forgot that, didn't you? The Broncos, after all their past Super Bowl traumas, won back-to-back championships in 1997 and 1998. Then Elway retired, Terrell Davis got hurt, and Mike Shanahan's genius reputation got a little bit tarnished.

The Broncos have not won a playoff game since then.

But this year, with quarterback Jake Plummer playing under control, with a good, young defense, with the team's usual strong running game, and with a first-round bye and a home game in the playoffs following an 8-0 season at home, Denver appears in shape finally to win in January again.

And the reward for that victory could be another trip to Indianapolis, where the Broncos' last two seasons ended in playoff defeats by a combined score of 90-34.

Denver believes its quick, young secondary is better prepared to handle the Colts than it was in those last two playoff games, but that still looks to be a very difficult task.

At any rate, this is the Broncos' best chance since the Elway era ended, with Plummer finally playing like the quarterback he was envisioned to be when he came into the NFL nearly a decade ago.

12/26/05 8:10AM EDT
Jake Plummer looks like that guy you see sitting at the bar by himself with a glass of the cheapest whiskey available. I don't mind the guy I guess, when he plays good that is, he just doesn't resemble a football player.
 
Jake Plummer looks like that guy you see sitting at the bar by himself with a glass of the cheapest whiskey available. I don't mind the guy I guess, when he plays good that is, he just doesn't resemble a football player.
That whiskey drinkin dude is usually tough and ready to kick ###. Gotta like it. That said, this year's Broncos do not have an Elway, Sharp or any other "NFL Superstar" on offense even though I like Rod Smith getting recognized in the Pro Bowl. I'm not saying some of the players like Smith and Anderson shouldn't be considered NFL Superstars, but much like the team has all season, those guys seem to stay under the radar while Tomlinson, Vick and others make headlines. Those teams aren't making the playoffs this year, but the Broncos are and show why football is truly a team sport. The sum of the parts are far greater than any one individual. Shanahan has put together a team. :football:
 
lol @ "ghost of Elway." Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin

 
Only the 1985 New England Patriots got to the Super Bowl by winning three road games in the playoffs.
Those are good memories!28-14 win at the Jets

27-20 win at the L.A. Raiders

31-14 win at the Dolphins (Squish the Fish)

Super Bowl XX: Patriots 3, Da Bears 0...can't understand why they let the game continue after the Patriots kicked that field goal 1:19 into the first quarter. :ph34r:

 
Broncos Finally Able to Move Away From Ghost of Elway

Denver Should Be Able to Advance in Postseason With Plummer at Helm

By IRA MILLER, AOL

Jeff Chiu, AP

Jake Plummer's prowess should be enough to finally get the Broncos further in the playoffs without John Elway at quarterback.

The four first-round byes in the playoffs have been clinched -- Indianapolis, Denver, Seattle, Chicago -- but a lively race remains for three open wild-card spots. You almost have to wonder, however, why teams still bother.

In 15 years since the NFL added two teams to the playoffs in 1990, increasing the number of participants to six in each conference, no fifth- or sixth-seeded team has been able to reach the Super Bowl because the task of winning three road games in the playoffs is so monumental.

Only the 1985 New England Patriots got to the Super Bowl by winning three road games in the playoffs. And, since the league began awarding playoff byes in 1978, only seven teams - of the 54 in 27 Super Bowls - managed to get to the final game without the benefit of a bye week. Six of them, all except the Patriots, at least began the playoff run at home.

Jacksonville is the only team that has so far clinched a wild-card spot, and the reward for the Jaguars may be a trip to Foxboro and an early exit. Pittsburgh is a near-lock for the other AFC wild-card spot, but the NFC's two spots still are up for grabs.

Denver finally is good enough to win a playoff game without John Elway.

Almost forgot that, didn't you? The Broncos, after all their past Super Bowl traumas, won back-to-back championships in 1997 and 1998. Then Elway retired, Terrell Davis got hurt, and Mike Shanahan's genius reputation got a little bit tarnished.

The Broncos have not won a playoff game since then.

But this year, with quarterback Jake Plummer playing under control, with a good, young defense, with the team's usual strong running game, and with a first-round bye and a home game in the playoffs following an 8-0 season at home, Denver appears in shape finally to win in January again.

And the reward for that victory could be another trip to Indianapolis, where the Broncos' last two seasons ended in playoff defeats by a combined score of 90-34.

Denver believes its quick, young secondary is better prepared to handle the Colts than it was in those last two playoff games, but that still looks to be a very difficult task.

At any rate, this is the Broncos' best chance since the Elway era ended, with Plummer finally playing like the quarterback he was envisioned to be when he came into the NFL nearly a decade ago.

12/26/05 8:10AM EDT
Jake Plummer looks like that guy you see sitting at the bar by himself with a glass of the cheapest whiskey available. I don't mind the guy I guess, when he plays good that is, he just doesn't resemble a football player.
I love Plummer. He resembles a cross between a hockey player and an 80's porn start. Just love it.
 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."  Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Biased against Denver much?Weren't you saying Denver would have a top 5 pick after the 1st week of the season?

Elway is a god.

 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."  Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Although this is a football forum, I don't understand this one. While David Robinson may have been over exposed because he was an actual good person on and off the courts, but he was not overrated.Before Robinson was drafted, San Antonio was a 21-61 (tied for 3rd worst) team. In his rookie year, they were 56-26 (4th best). Before he got hurt in 1996-97, his teams averaged a record of 55-27. In the season before he got drafted and the season he missed all but 6 games (and thus got Duncan in the lottery), the team averaged 20 wins.

As for the playoffs, they definitely did not do as well, but I think that as a center, it is not as easy to carry a team by yourself. I still think the fact that his teams averaged 55 wins a season and the year before and the year without him the same team averaged 20 wins, so how much of an impact he had. When you see a team go from the bottom of the league to annual playoff teams, then that one person is a top player in the league.

 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."  Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Marty Schottenheimer would disagree with you and I think the city of Cleveland would disagree as well.
 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."  Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Wow John Elway is the 3rd most overrated Athlete? Tell me another QB that took his team to 5 superbowls with less talent? I understand that the last two which were wins he had a great team, but the teams in the late 80's and early 90's would of been lottery teams with out him. I would hate to see how low you have Dan Marino on that list of overrated Athletes?

 
I will always hate John Elway - HATE JOHN ELWAY - for being the key figure in the two most unsportsmanlike displays in the history of sports, basically bookending his career...1. "I told you I wasn't going to play here. I know you got offered two firsts and I'm not playing here. I'll go play baseball..." - After being drafted.2. "I deserve this!" - On the podium after winning the first Super Bowl. Johnny, no one "deserves" a Super Bowl ring. Show some humility, you sack.Elway is, was, and always will be a selfish jerk. I realize that sports are full of "selfish jerks", but at least most of the time it's either (a) behind the scenes (a la the aforementioned Cal Ripkin) or (b) we know the guy is a jerk and deal with it. Elway seems to constantly get a free pass from people. It boggles the mind.Toss in that he only became a winner when Terrell Davis put together a couple all-time-great seasons and it becomes even more evident that getting to 3 Super Bowls with "no supporting cast" isn't nearly as significant or important or "great" as finishing the deal just once....and when John finally "finished" the deal, it was on the coattails of a great RB.Colin

 
lol @ "ghost of Elway." Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Although this is a football forum, I don't understand this one. While David Robinson may have been over exposed because he was an actual good person on and off the courts, but he was not overrated.Before Robinson was drafted, San Antonio was a 21-61 (tied for 3rd worst) team. In his rookie year, they were 56-26 (4th best). Before he got hurt in 1996-97, his teams averaged a record of 55-27. In the season before he got drafted and the season he missed all but 6 games (and thus got Duncan in the lottery), the team averaged 20 wins.

As for the playoffs, they definitely did not do as well, but I think that as a center, it is not as easy to carry a team by yourself. I still think the fact that his teams averaged 55 wins a season and the year before and the year without him the same team averaged 20 wins, so how much of an impact he had. When you see a team go from the bottom of the league to annual playoff teams, then that one person is a top player in the league.
I do believe that Colin is a biased Houston (we have a problem) Rockets fan, a bias fueled by 3 NBA championships for the Spurs over the past 7 years.
 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."   Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Although this is a football forum, I don't understand this one. While David Robinson may have been over exposed because he was an actual good person on and off the courts, but he was not overrated.Before Robinson was drafted, San Antonio was a 21-61 (tied for 3rd worst) team. In his rookie year, they were 56-26 (4th best). Before he got hurt in 1996-97, his teams averaged a record of 55-27. In the season before he got drafted and the season he missed all but 6 games (and thus got Duncan in the lottery), the team averaged 20 wins.

As for the playoffs, they definitely did not do as well, but I think that as a center, it is not as easy to carry a team by yourself. I still think the fact that his teams averaged 55 wins a season and the year before and the year without him the same team averaged 20 wins, so how much of an impact he had. When you see a team go from the bottom of the league to annual playoff teams, then that one person is a top player in the league.
I do believe that Colin is a biased Houston (we have a problem) Rockets fan, a bias fueled by 3 NBA championships for the Spurs over the past 7 years.
...a Bias defended by the fact that Hakeem Olajuwon made Robinson look like a fool in their WCF matchup. Even Robinson knows it, admitting that he keeps his MVP trophy in his closet because he knows he didn't deserve it.To be fair, Robinson is a wonderful person. He's just an overrated basketball player.

Colin

 
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lol @ "ghost of Elway." Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
You're right. Without Terrell Davis, he doesn't make any of those NFL QB Record 5 superbowls (an average of one every 3 seasons).Oh wait.

 
I will always hate John Elway - HATE JOHN ELWAY - for being the key figure in the two most unsportsmanlike displays in the history of sports, basically bookending his career...

1. "I told you I wasn't going to play here. I know you got offered two firsts and I'm not playing here. I'll go play baseball..." - After being drafted.
Elway had nothing against Baltimore, and made that abundantly clear. He wasn't refusing to play for Baltimore, he was refusing to play for their head coach, who had a personal feud going with the Elway family at the time. Eli Manning was FAR more classless, basically saying "I won't play for you because you suck" rather than "I won't play for you because my entire family has hated your head coach for as long as I remember and I refuse to play for him".
2. "I deserve this!" - On the podium after winning the first Super Bowl. Johnny, no one "deserves" a Super Bowl ring. Show some humility, you sack.
Bowlen said "This one's for John". John never said "This one's for me". And Bowlen was just saying what every single player on that team was saying all season. "We have to win one for John, we're going to go win one for John".
Toss in that he only became a winner when Terrell Davis put together a couple all-time-great seasons and it becomes even more evident that getting to 3 Super Bowls with "no supporting cast" isn't nearly as significant or important or "great" as finishing the deal just once....and when John finally "finished" the deal, it was on the coattails of a great RB.

Colin
I strongly disagree. I think MAKING the SB twice is every bit as big of an accomplishment as winning it once, and Elway made it THREE times with "no supporting cast".Every year, a QB has a 6.7% chance of making the SB, and a 3.3% chance of winning one (calculations based on 30 teams). Elway made the superbowl 31% of the time and won it 12.5% of the time. And he only had Davis for 3 seasons, so you can't pin that on Davis. That's simply a spectacular accomplishment. Even Montana only made the Bowl 26.7% of the time.

And if Terrell Davis was the reason Elway won his second SB, why did Elway get the SB MVP? Elway was more instrumental to that SB win than Davis. Davis might have been huge in getting Elway there, but it's not like Elway needed Davis to MAKE the SB- he had done it 3 times on his own. And once there, against the Falcons, he didn't need Davis to win it, either.

A great RB is nice, but how many SBs did Barry Sanders win? Scratch that, how many PLAYOFF GAMES did Barry Sanders win? ALL QBs need some help to win the SB. Not even ELWAY could do it alone.

 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."   Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Although this is a football forum, I don't understand this one. While David Robinson may have been over exposed because he was an actual good person on and off the courts, but he was not overrated.Before Robinson was drafted, San Antonio was a 21-61 (tied for 3rd worst) team. In his rookie year, they were 56-26 (4th best). Before he got hurt in 1996-97, his teams averaged a record of 55-27. In the season before he got drafted and the season he missed all but 6 games (and thus got Duncan in the lottery), the team averaged 20 wins.

As for the playoffs, they definitely did not do as well, but I think that as a center, it is not as easy to carry a team by yourself. I still think the fact that his teams averaged 55 wins a season and the year before and the year without him the same team averaged 20 wins, so how much of an impact he had. When you see a team go from the bottom of the league to annual playoff teams, then that one person is a top player in the league.
I do believe that Colin is a biased Houston (we have a problem) Rockets fan, a bias fueled by 3 NBA championships for the Spurs over the past 7 years.
...a Bias defended by the fact that Hakeem Olajuwon made Robinson look like a fool in their WCF matchup. Even Robinson knows it, admitting that he keeps his MVP trophy in his closet because he knows he didn't deserve it.To be fair, Robinson is a wonderful person. He's just an overrated basketball player.

Colin
Colin,You got me on that series since I don't think I watched a game, but why is Robinson overrated?

So what, he won the MVP before that series. Olajuwon did deserve it, heck no one thinks that Olajuwon wasn't one of the best big men in NBA history. Again, why is Robinson overrated? He turned around a crappy franchise and made it a playoff team every year he was healthy.

You are obviously a Houston homer and although Hakeem has moved on, you sure haven't and are still bitter about it. ;)

That is what happens when trophies get handed out before the final games. That is also why they make Finals/World Series/NCAA Tourney/Bowl Game/Super Bowl MVP trophies since not everyone makes the playoffs and the MVP trophies are for the "regular season".

 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."   Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Although this is a football forum, I don't understand this one. While David Robinson may have been over exposed because he was an actual good person on and off the courts, but he was not overrated.Before Robinson was drafted, San Antonio was a 21-61 (tied for 3rd worst) team. In his rookie year, they were 56-26 (4th best). Before he got hurt in 1996-97, his teams averaged a record of 55-27. In the season before he got drafted and the season he missed all but 6 games (and thus got Duncan in the lottery), the team averaged 20 wins.

As for the playoffs, they definitely did not do as well, but I think that as a center, it is not as easy to carry a team by yourself. I still think the fact that his teams averaged 55 wins a season and the year before and the year without him the same team averaged 20 wins, so how much of an impact he had. When you see a team go from the bottom of the league to annual playoff teams, then that one person is a top player in the league.
I do believe that Colin is a biased Houston (we have a problem) Rockets fan, a bias fueled by 3 NBA championships for the Spurs over the past 7 years.
...a Bias defended by the fact that Hakeem Olajuwon made Robinson look like a fool in their WCF matchup. Even Robinson knows it, admitting that he keeps his MVP trophy in his closet because he knows he didn't deserve it.To be fair, Robinson is a wonderful person. He's just an overrated basketball player.

Colin
Colin,You got me on that series since I don't think I watched a game, but why is Robinson overrated?

So what, he won the MVP before that series. Olajuwon did deserve it, heck no one thinks that Olajuwon wasn't one of the best big men in NBA history. Again, why is Robinson overrated? He turned around a crappy franchise and made it a playoff team every year he was healthy.

You are obviously a Houston homer and although Hakeem has moved on, you sure haven't and are still bitter about it. ;)

That is what happens when trophies get handed out before the final games. That is also why they make Finals/World Series/NCAA Tourney/Bowl Game/Super Bowl MVP trophies since not everyone makes the playoffs and the MVP trophies are for the "regular season".
A well thought out post, and one that will make me refine my rhetoric. I think Robinson was overrated because I don't feel like he led to as "significant" a difference in his team's success as his counterpart Olajuwon. I simply felt/feel that the notion that Robinson was the best center (much less best player) at any point in time wherein Hakeem was in the league is ridiculous. Is it his fault? Probalby not, but that's how history goes.And if you haven't seen any of that series, you shoudl track it down. The Rockets won Games 1 and 2 in SA. THe Spurs win 3 and 4 in Houston. Houston was the 6 seed, SA was the 1 IIRC. THen Houston wins the next two. THere are a few highlights in there that will easily stand the test of time, including an Hakeem dream-shake bank shot off the absolute highest, widest point of the backboard and a fake out where Robinson leaves his feet while Hakeem just sits there watching it happen before calmly spinning and laying the ball in. A GREAT series.

 
I will always hate John Elway - HATE JOHN ELWAY - for being the key figure in the two most unsportsmanlike displays in the history of sports, basically bookending his career...

1. "I told you I wasn't going to play here.  I know you got offered two firsts and I'm not playing here.  I'll go play baseball..."  - After being drafted.
Elway had nothing against Baltimore, and made that abundantly clear. He wasn't refusing to play for Baltimore, he was refusing to play for their head coach, who had a personal feud going with the Elway family at the time. Eli Manning was FAR more classless, basically saying "I won't play for you because you suck" rather than "I won't play for you because my entire family has hated your head coach for as long as I remember and I refuse to play for him".
2. "I deserve this!"  - On the podium after winning the first Super Bowl.  Johnny, no one "deserves" a Super Bowl ring.  Show some humility, you sack.
Bowlen said "This one's for John". John never said "This one's for me". And Bowlen was just saying what every single player on that team was saying all season. "We have to win one for John, we're going to go win one for John".
Toss in that he only became a winner when Terrell Davis put together a couple all-time-great seasons and it becomes even more evident that getting to 3 Super Bowls with "no supporting cast" isn't nearly as significant or important or "great" as finishing the deal just once....and when John finally "finished" the deal, it was on the coattails of a great RB.

Colin
I strongly disagree. I think MAKING the SB twice is every bit as big of an accomplishment as winning it once, and Elway made it THREE times with "no supporting cast".Every year, a QB has a 6.7% chance of making the SB, and a 3.3% chance of winning one (calculations based on 30 teams). Elway made the superbowl 31% of the time and won it 12.5% of the time. And he only had Davis for 3 seasons, so you can't pin that on Davis. That's simply a spectacular accomplishment. Even Montana only made the Bowl 26.7% of the time.

And if Terrell Davis was the reason Elway won his second SB, why did Elway get the SB MVP? Elway was more instrumental to that SB win than Davis. Davis might have been huge in getting Elway there, but it's not like Elway needed Davis to MAKE the SB- he had done it 3 times on his own. And once there, against the Falcons, he didn't need Davis to win it, either.

A great RB is nice, but how many SBs did Barry Sanders win? Scratch that, how many PLAYOFF GAMES did Barry Sanders win? ALL QBs need some help to win the SB. Not even ELWAY could do it alone.
1. So, the fact that he didn't like the coach is justifiable, but Manning saying he didn't want to go to San Diego, for whatever reason, is not? Nothing like a 22 year old saying he won't respect the coach so he isn't going to play there. Nice, I love the entitlement.2. It happened. I'll look around and try to find the video. Clear as a bell, I remember cursing the Broncos for beating the Packers since i had money on Green Bay. It's etched in my brain..."I deserve this!"

3. Making the Super Bowl means nothing. Just ask Jim Kelly, who was a career 60.1% passer at 7.4 ypa with a roughly 1.35:1 TD/Int ratio. He never won the big one, and it is remembered. Elway had a significantly worse completion % (56.9, which is also 3.2 points worse than Tim Couch), a worse ypa (7.1), and a worse TD/INT ratio (1.32:1) yet he rides Davis to two rings and he's one of the top 3 QBs of all time? Elway was even worse in the playoffs, with a 54.6 completion % and a TD/Int ration of 1.28:1. I'm not buying it.

Colin

 
A well thought out post, and one that will make me refine my rhetoric. I think Robinson was overrated because I don't feel like he led to as "significant" a difference in his team's success as his counterpart Olajuwon. I simply felt/feel that the notion that Robinson was the best center (much less best player) at any point in time wherein Hakeem was in the league is ridiculous. Is it his fault? Probalby not, but that's how history goes.

And if you haven't seen any of that series, you shoudl track it down. The Rockets won Games 1 and 2 in SA. THe Spurs win 3 and 4 in Houston. Houston was the 6 seed, SA was the 1 IIRC. THen Houston wins the next two. THere are a few highlights in there that will easily stand the test of time, including an Hakeem dream-shake bank shot off the absolute highest, widest point of the backboard and a fake out where Robinson leaves his feet while Hakeem just sits there watching it happen before calmly spinning and laying the ball in. A GREAT series.
I am going to sleep soon, so one last post.The bolded part is exactly the thing that I pointed out as the one reason why you could conclude that Robinson was a bonafide stud. San Antonio went from a league doormat the 3 years before Robinson was drafted with 28, 31, and 21 wins. In Robinson's first 7 years, they averaged 55 wins. The year he got hurt, they had 20 wins. It seems pretty obvious to me that he greatly impacted the Spurs and was the reason that they made the playoffs 7 straight years after being terrible.

I just remember seeing a stat a few years ago about the biggest single season turnarounds and Robinson was at the top with a 35 win difference, right about Larry Bird (32) and Magic Johnson (I think it was Magic?). Everyone one of the "single" players responsible on that list seemed like a who's who of hall of famers.

 
1. So, the fact that he didn't like the coach is justifiable, but Manning saying he didn't want to go to San Diego, for whatever reason, is not? Nothing like a 22 year old saying he won't respect the coach so he isn't going to play there. Nice, I love the entitlement.

2. It happened. I'll look around and try to find the video. Clear as a bell, I remember cursing the Broncos for beating the Packers since i had money on Green Bay. It's etched in my brain..."I deserve this!"

3. Making the Super Bowl means nothing. Just ask Jim Kelly, who was a career 60.1% passer at 7.4 ypa with a roughly 1.35:1 TD/Int ratio. He never won the big one, and it is remembered. Elway had a significantly worse completion % (56.9, which is also 3.2 points worse than Tim Couch), a worse ypa (7.1), and a worse TD/INT ratio (1.32:1) yet he rides Davis to two rings and he's one of the top 3 QBs of all time? Elway was even worse in the playoffs, with a 54.6 completion % and a TD/Int ration of 1.28:1. I'm not buying it.

Colin
1. I think the fact that there were significant bitter feelings between the coach and the Elway family is at least reasonable justification. You can agree with it or not, but I think it's at least REASONABLE.2. If you say it's on video, I'll believe you. I won't even contest the point. That said, how does what Elway said AS A PERSON affect whether Elway was overrated AS A PLAYER? I mean, he divorced his wife and then didn't even mention her in his HoF speech (which was without question one of the most classless acts I've seen). How does this make him overrated as a player? O.J. Simpson killed (or didn't... :rolleyes: ) his wife, but he was still an AMAZING football player.

3. Jim Kelly gets criticized unfairly. Making the SB 4 times in a row is a TREMENDOUS accomplishment, in my opinion on par with winning 3 of 4. I think the only knock on Jim Kelly is just HOW MANY Pro Bowlers he had on his team. It was RIDICULOUS the talent on his team. I don't knock him for making the SB and not winning it once- that's tremendous. I knock him for not managing to win DESPITE THE RIDICULOUS TALENT ON HIS TEAM. And even then, it's a pretty small knock.

And for what it's worth, I have John Elway as one of the top 3 QBs of all time for MAKING 3 SBs in the late 80s, not for WINNING 2 SBs in the late 90s. That was just gravy. I mean, ANYONE can win an SB with tremendous surrounding talent- just ask Dilfer. It was the 3 SBs he lost that were most impressive.

 
i Appreciate your posting and see we disagree. No worries as I find you arguments logical, as I hope you do mine. My bit w/ regard to Elway being overrated has as much to do, admittedly, with the fact that he is a crummy person as it does with the fact that I think he was a very good, but not great, football player.Have a good sleeeeeeep...

 
Jake Plummer will probably lead Denver to a playoff win against the Cinci/Jacksonville winner, but that will be it. They wont beat the Colts in Indy or New England in Denver. He's had a great season, but I dont see him winning against Manning or Brady, nor a Superbowl appearance in this team's future, but for God's sake, I hope they can finally end the Elway drought and win atleast one game when it counts.

 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."  Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Wow somebody gets it!I would replace one of the last 2 with Mikey "refs are your friend" Jordan, or maybe Vick.

 
lol @ "ghost of Elway." Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Although this is a football forum, I don't understand this one. While David Robinson may have been over exposed because he was an actual good person on and off the courts, but he was not overrated.Before Robinson was drafted, San Antonio was a 21-61 (tied for 3rd worst) team. In his rookie year, they were 56-26 (4th best). Before he got hurt in 1996-97, his teams averaged a record of 55-27. In the season before he got drafted and the season he missed all but 6 games (and thus got Duncan in the lottery), the team averaged 20 wins.

As for the playoffs, they definitely did not do as well, but I think that as a center, it is not as easy to carry a team by yourself. I still think the fact that his teams averaged 55 wins a season and the year before and the year without him the same team averaged 20 wins, so how much of an impact he had. When you see a team go from the bottom of the league to annual playoff teams, then that one person is a top player in the league.
I do believe that Colin is a biased Houston (we have a problem) Rockets fan, a bias fueled by 3 NBA championships for the Spurs over the past 7 years.
...a Bias defended by the fact that Hakeem Olajuwon made Robinson look like a fool in their WCF matchup. Even Robinson knows it, admitting that he keeps his MVP trophy in his closet because he knows he didn't deserve it.To be fair, Robinson is a wonderful person. He's just an overrated basketball player.

Colin
A fool? David was double-teamed that entire series, while David played Hakeem straight up. You don't remember, do you? Rodman (the original TO) was busy mailing it in that series.Was Hakeem better than David? ... tomato-tomahto.

I'll spare everyone a littany of statistics, but suffice it to say, the Rockets won in 1995 because they had the better team - it's that simple. Avery Johnson was the starting PG on the Spurs for crying out loud! Bob "freaking" Hill was the head coach!

Anyway!

 
lol @ "ghost of Elway."  Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Although this is a football forum, I don't understand this one. While David Robinson may have been over exposed because he was an actual good person on and off the courts, but he was not overrated.Before Robinson was drafted, San Antonio was a 21-61 (tied for 3rd worst) team. In his rookie year, they were 56-26 (4th best). Before he got hurt in 1996-97, his teams averaged a record of 55-27. In the season before he got drafted and the season he missed all but 6 games (and thus got Duncan in the lottery), the team averaged 20 wins.

As for the playoffs, they definitely did not do as well, but I think that as a center, it is not as easy to carry a team by yourself. I still think the fact that his teams averaged 55 wins a season and the year before and the year without him the same team averaged 20 wins, so how much of an impact he had. When you see a team go from the bottom of the league to annual playoff teams, then that one person is a top player in the league.
I do believe that Colin is a biased Houston (we have a problem) Rockets fan, a bias fueled by 3 NBA championships for the Spurs over the past 7 years.
...a Bias defended by the fact that Hakeem Olajuwon made Robinson look like a fool in their WCF matchup. Even Robinson knows it, admitting that he keeps his MVP trophy in his closet because he knows he didn't deserve it.To be fair, Robinson is a wonderful person. He's just an overrated basketball player.

Colin
A fool? David was double-teamed that entire series, while David played Hakeem straight up. You don't remember, do you? Rodman (the original TO) was busy mailing it in that series.Was Hakeem better than David? ... tomato-tomahto.

I'll spare everyone a littany of statistics, but suffice it to say, the Rockets won in 1995 because they had the better team - it's that simple. Avery Johnson was the starting PG on the Spurs for crying out loud! Bob "freaking" Hill was the head coach!

Anyway!
Worst post evah.The Spurs were the 1 seed. THe Rockets were the 6.

I'd be interested to see what statistics you are counting on to prove your point...

 
Jake Plummer will probably lead Denver to a playoff win against the Cinci/Jacksonville winner, but that will be it. They wont beat the Colts in Indy or New England in Denver. He's had a great season, but I dont see him winning against Manning or Brady, nor a Superbowl appearance in this team's future, but for God's sake, I hope they can finally end the Elway drought and win atleast one game when it counts.
Dude, you do realize it would be the Broncos playing Indy or New England, and not Plummer playing Manning or Brady. See, there are 22 players on the field at all teams. There are these things we call teams. Just sayin'... Anyway I don't think Denver would beat Indy in Indy, but New England in Denver? Hell yeah.
 
Read the thread, it's interesting.
It appears to have digressed into a b-ball debate, which for me by definition means it's boring - sorry. Just nice to see someone else gets it about Horseface.
 
Read the thread, it's interesting.
It appears to have digressed into a b-ball debate, which for me by definition means it's boring - sorry. Just nice to see someone else gets it about Horseface.
You're so wise. Silly everyone who thinks Elway is actually a great QB. What are we thinking? Gosh, thanks for opening our eyes.
 
lol @ "ghost of Elway." Try "ghost of Terrell Davis."
Exactly what i came to post. JOhn Elway may be the third-most overrated athlete of our time, trailing only Cal Ripkin and David Robinson.(Bring it on!)

Colin
Although this is a football forum, I don't understand this one. While David Robinson may have been over exposed because he was an actual good person on and off the courts, but he was not overrated.Before Robinson was drafted, San Antonio was a 21-61 (tied for 3rd worst) team. In his rookie year, they were 56-26 (4th best). Before he got hurt in 1996-97, his teams averaged a record of 55-27. In the season before he got drafted and the season he missed all but 6 games (and thus got Duncan in the lottery), the team averaged 20 wins.

As for the playoffs, they definitely did not do as well, but I think that as a center, it is not as easy to carry a team by yourself. I still think the fact that his teams averaged 55 wins a season and the year before and the year without him the same team averaged 20 wins, so how much of an impact he had. When you see a team go from the bottom of the league to annual playoff teams, then that one person is a top player in the league.
I do believe that Colin is a biased Houston (we have a problem) Rockets fan, a bias fueled by 3 NBA championships for the Spurs over the past 7 years.
...a Bias defended by the fact that Hakeem Olajuwon made Robinson look like a fool in their WCF matchup. Even Robinson knows it, admitting that he keeps his MVP trophy in his closet because he knows he didn't deserve it.To be fair, Robinson is a wonderful person. He's just an overrated basketball player.

Colin
A fool? David was double-teamed that entire series, while David played Hakeem straight up. You don't remember, do you? Rodman (the original TO) was busy mailing it in that series.Was Hakeem better than David? ... tomato-tomahto.

I'll spare everyone a littany of statistics, but suffice it to say, the Rockets won in 1995 because they had the better team - it's that simple. Avery Johnson was the starting PG on the Spurs for crying out loud! Bob "freaking" Hill was the head coach!

Anyway!
Worst post evah.The Spurs were the 1 seed. THe Rockets were the 6.

I'd be interested to see what statistics you are counting on to prove your point...
Why do you even respond? My opinion of people who use the word "evah" is an inflammatory one, so I will keep it to myself.

Stats to follow tomorrow - there are a lot of them and I want to be sure I get them straight.

 
Is there anyway we could keep this on the Broncos and Elway so it does not get moved to ffa or closed?

 
I have been a Broncos fan my entire life, and finally, I think that they will win it again. After watching Peyton Manning this year, when pressure is put on him, he cracks. With the Broncos young and fast linebacking core (Al Wilson, DJ Williams, and Ian Gold) they will be able to apply tons and tons of pressure. Not to mention John Lynch on the safety blitz. Champ Baily will shut down Marvin Harrison like he always does. No one say anything, because last year, they lost because of Rock Alexander who gave up 212 yards and 2 touchdowns to Reggie Wayne. I think that the Broncos will have to beat the Steelers to get to the Colts, and once they do, I feel that they will outplay them. Over the past few weeks, the Colts defense has proven that they arent capable of stopping the run. Mike will run wild.

 
Jake Plummer will probably lead Denver to a playoff win against the Cinci/Jacksonville winner, but that will be it.  They wont beat the Colts in Indy or New England in Denver.  He's had a great season, but I dont see him winning against Manning or Brady, nor a Superbowl appearance in this team's future, but for God's sake, I hope they can finally end the Elway drought and win atleast one game when it counts.
Dude, you do realize it would be the Broncos playing Indy or New England, and not Plummer playing Manning or Brady. See, there are 22 players on the field at all teams. There are these things we call teams. Just sayin'... Anyway I don't think Denver would beat Indy in Indy, but New England in Denver? Hell yeah.
Right, the team thing. And the QB was the most important factor in that team equation last I checked, but I get your point. And if you think Denver is beating New England this year in the playoffs, then Ill just back off and let you have your fun for now. It probably wont come to that, but who am I to burst anyone's bubble? Thanks for the reply.
 
I will always hate John Elway - HATE JOHN ELWAY - for being the key figure in the two most unsportsmanlike displays in the history of sports, basically bookending his career...

1. "I told you I wasn't going to play here. I know you got offered two firsts and I'm not playing here. I'll go play baseball..." - After being drafted.

2. "I deserve this!" - On the podium after winning the first Super Bowl. Johnny, no one "deserves" a Super Bowl ring. Show some humility, you sack.

Elway is, was, and always will be a selfish jerk. I realize that sports are full of "selfish jerks", but at least most of the time it's either (a) behind the scenes (a la the aforementioned Cal Ripkin) or (b) we know the guy is a jerk and deal with it. Elway seems to constantly get a free pass from people. It boggles the mind.

Toss in that he only became a winner when Terrell Davis put together a couple all-time-great seasons and it becomes even more evident that getting to 3 Super Bowls with "no supporting cast" isn't nearly as significant or important or "great" as finishing the deal just once....and when John finally "finished" the deal, it was on the coattails of a great RB.

Colin
Well, this post here proves that your opinion of Elway being overrated stems more from your hatred of him as a person than it does from his play on the field. And Elway never said, "I deserve this!" I still have Super Bowl XXXII and all of the post-game celebration on tape and have watched it numerous times and Elway never said that. In fact, Elway must have said, "I can't believe it," at least a half a dozen times. Elway had the look of a guy who couldn't believe his team had finally won a Super Bowl.

I will repeat it...On the podium following the win in SBXXXII, Elway did NOT say, "I deserve this," or anything like that and I have the videotape to prove it.

 
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I will always hate John Elway - HATE JOHN ELWAY - for being the key figure in the two most unsportsmanlike displays in the history of sports, basically bookending his career...

1. "I told you I wasn't going to play here.  I know you got offered two firsts and I'm not playing here.  I'll go play baseball..."  - After being drafted.

2. "I deserve this!"  - On the podium after winning the first Super Bowl.  Johnny, no one "deserves" a Super Bowl ring.  Show some humility, you sack.

Elway is, was, and always will be a selfish jerk.  I realize that sports are full of "selfish jerks", but at least most of the time it's either (a) behind the scenes (a la the aforementioned Cal Ripkin) or (b) we know the guy is a jerk and deal with it.  Elway seems to constantly get a free pass from people.  It boggles the mind.

Toss in that he only became a winner when Terrell Davis put together a couple all-time-great seasons and it becomes even more evident that getting to 3 Super Bowls with "no supporting cast" isn't nearly as significant or important or "great" as finishing the deal just once....and when John finally "finished" the deal, it was on the coattails of a great RB.

Colin
Well, this post here proves that your opinion of Elway being overrated stems more from your hatred of him as a person than it does from his play on the field. And Elway never said, "I deserve this!" I still have Super Bowl XXXII and all of the post-game celebration on tape and have watched it numerous times and Elway never said that. In fact, Elway must have said, "I can't believe it," at least a half a dozen times. Elway had the look of a guy who couldn't believe his team had finally won a Super Bowl.

I will repeat it...On the podium following the win in SBXXXII, Elway did NOT say, "I deserve this," or anything like that and I have the videotape to prove it.
1. He said it.2. He did have the look of a guy who couldn't believe his TEAM had finally won.

3. See #1.

 
If anyone here besides me goes to Denver, you'd also see that Elway OWNS Denver. He's got car dealerships, billboards, his name's EVERYWHERE.I don't know what that has to do with this thread but I just wanted to mention that.

 
If anyone here besides me goes to Denver, you'd also see that Elway OWNS Denver. He's got car dealerships, billboards, his name's EVERYWHERE.

I don't know what that has to do with this thread but I just wanted to mention that.
It just shows how gulible people are when their heroes are involved.Colin

 
If anyone here besides me goes to Denver, you'd also see that Elway OWNS Denver. He's got car dealerships, billboards, his name's EVERYWHERE.

I don't know what that has to do with this thread but I just wanted to mention that.
It just shows how gulible people are when their heroes are involved.Colin
Huh? What does Elway being a successful businessman have to do with people being gullible?ETA: He also owns the local arena football team.

 
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If anyone here besides me goes to Denver, you'd also see that Elway OWNS Denver. He's got car dealerships, billboards, his name's EVERYWHERE.

I don't know what that has to do with this thread but I just wanted to mention that.
It just shows how gulible people are when their heroes are involved.Colin
So I guess the HTown is gulible with the Twin Towers (Samspon and "Dream") crappola.Or hell any team that supports its star players?

Just admit that you cannot see past your dislike of certain athletes and move on.

ITs ok not to like a certian player I am sure I don't like players that you like.

SO Move on.

 
If anyone here besides me goes to Denver, you'd also see that Elway OWNS Denver. He's got car dealerships, billboards, his name's EVERYWHERE.

I don't know what that has to do with this thread but I just wanted to mention that.
It just shows how gulible people are when their heroes are involved.Colin
So I guess the HTown is gulible with the Twin Towers (Samspon and "Dream") crappola.Or hell any team that supports its star players?

Just admit that you cannot see past your dislike of certain athletes and move on.

ITs ok not to like a certian player I am sure I don't like players that you like.

SO Move on.
:goodposting: I feel the same way about Favre as Colin does about Elway, but for everyone one of me there are 100 who call BS including John Madden.

 
i Appreciate your posting and see we disagree. No worries as I find you arguments logical, as I hope you do mine. My bit w/ regard to Elway being overrated has as much to do, admittedly, with the fact that he is a crummy person as it does with the fact that I think he was a very good, but not great, football player.

Have a good sleeeeeeep...
It's okay, don't sweat it. There are a ton of football players I have an irrational (or semi-rational) dislike of, as well, and I won't pretend to be above knocking them down in my estimation as a result. I can live with the fact that some people think he's overrated. Heck, if no one ever thought he was overrated, then I could never claim that he was actually UNDERrated, now could I? ;)
See, there are 22 players on the field at all teams.
Sometimes even 23, but they usually get penalized for that one.
I have been a Broncos fan my entire life, and finally, I think that they will win it again. After watching Peyton Manning this year, when pressure is put on him, he cracks. With the Broncos young and fast linebacking core (Al Wilson, DJ Williams, and Ian Gold) they will be able to apply tons and tons of pressure. Not to mention John Lynch on the safety blitz. Champ Baily will shut down Marvin Harrison like he always does. No one say anything, because last year, they lost because of Rock Alexander who gave up 212 yards and 2 touchdowns to Reggie Wayne. I think that the Broncos will have to beat the Steelers to get to the Colts, and once they do, I feel that they will outplay them. Over the past few weeks, the Colts defense has proven that they arent capable of stopping the run. Mike will run wild.
There's NO WAY the Broncos can face the Steelers before the Colts. The Steelers are the 6th seed, so if they win in round 1, they are automatically the lowest seed remaining. Lowest seed remaining always plays the 1 seed, so if Pitt wins in round 1, they are guaranteed to draw the Colts in round 2, just like if the 3-seed wins, they're guaranteed to come to Denver.Also, I really don't think blitzing Manning is the way to go.

If anyone here besides me goes to Denver, you'd also see that Elway OWNS Denver. He's got car dealerships, billboards, his name's EVERYWHERE.

I don't know what that has to do with this thread but I just wanted to mention that.
It just shows how gulible people are when their heroes are involved.Colin
Huh? What does Elway being a successful businessman have to do with people being gullible?ETA: He also owns the local arena football team.
Hey, I like Elway, but they're right. Elway OWNS Denver. If he ran for political office, he would win in a landslide. Personally, I'd rather elect an actual politician with actual political experience to run my state over a guy who won a couple of superbowls once.The newspapers once ran a story on what Elway ate for breakfast.

Anyway, I think one of the impressive things about Elway is that he came in to such high expectations, and he didn't disappoint. Did you know that only two QBs drafted #1 overall have ever made the HoF (Elway and Bradshaw)? That's the thing, he came in with all of this tremendous pressure to deliver... and he delivered in a huge way. Sort of encapsulates his career- whenever the pressure was on for him to deliver, he did- as evidenced by his 4th quarter comeback numbers.

 

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