Broncos RB. (2 Viewers)

[Kenny Powers]

I wont jump on the Moreno will be starting week 1 train, but this just screams of him having the most value. Even if he remains 3rd on the depth chart, if one of the other guys get injured he has a prominent role and may never let go of it.

 

[Eminence]

I ended up with Moreno. Never had a chance to draft Ball (who may be the strongest horse in the race longterm) and never took Hillman as a legitimate threat to put up Fantasy Points. It's almost like John Fox was giving the rookies a chance to shine because in the back of his mind he realizes,

"If this backfires, I can just put Knowshon Moreno in."

But yeah, if Moreno's pass protection is better than Ball's (significantly) as a head coach you would want him in the game. The Broncos don't have Welker, Thomas, and Decker to not use them. They need their best blocking back in the game.

It just so happens, Moreno can take decent advantage of the defensive fronts Peyton Manning sees.

 

[Anarchy99]

I wont jump on the Moreno will be starting week 1 train, but this just screams of him having the most value. Even if he remains 3rd on the depth chart, if one of the other guys get injured he has a prominent role and may never let go of it.

OK. I'll play. Can't you say the same about the other two guys, too? If one guy gets hurt, the other two will benefit. And certainly the one who has the longest track record for injury is Moreno, so it's not really a stretch to suggest that Ball and Hillman would benefit if Moreno got hurt again.

I think the most likely outcome now is a RBBC and if any one of the 3 guys (or more if Anderson gets healthy quick enough) and the hot hand each week might get some extra work. At this point, I don't see things as one guy gets 25 touches and the two others combine for 5.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I wont jump on the Moreno will be starting week 1 train, but this just screams of him having the most value. Even if he remains 3rd on the depth chart, if one of the other guys get injured he has a prominent role and may never let go of it.

OK. I'll play. Can't you say the same about the other two guys, too? If one guy gets hurt, the other two will benefit. And certainly the one who has the longest track record for injury is Moreno, so it's not really a stretch to suggest that Ball and Hillman would benefit if Moreno got hurt again.

I think the most likely outcome now is a RBBC and if any one of the 3 guys (or more if Anderson gets healthy quick enough) and the hot hand each week might get some extra work. At this point, I don't see things as one guy gets 25 touches and the two others combine for 5.

I dont disagree, I was more speaking of value in reference to ADP which Moreno is going way, way later to the point of being an afterthought.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

The first-team RB was different today than it was yesterday. On Monday we saw Montee Ball enter with the first-team and get a majority of the reps. Today it was back to Hillman as the lead back.

Moreno only gets time with the first-team in 2-minute drills.

After practice Fox re-emphasized the team will use a RBBC with both Hillman/Ball. Here's the quotes:

On the running back position and who will be the starter

“Well, I don’t even know yet, so I don’t know how you all know. We’ve got another preseason game. We have good feelings about both of them (RBs Montee Ball and Ronnie Hillman). As I mentioned yesterday, they’ll both carry a big load for us this season—knock on wood. Whether it’s ‘1A’ and ‘1,’ or however you want to list it, they’re both very capable and we’re very pleased with both of them.”

On if he can get a good enough feel about the running backs in practice

“We’re not going to get into how much we’re going to play anybody on Thursday, other than to say that we’ve seen plenty that I think everybody in that locker room, and on our coaching staff, has confidence in both of them”

On RB Knowshon Moreno

“He’s high up there too. If you look over my last two years, or my tenure here, we’ve leaned on a lot of different guys. We’ll keep more than one-deep—you’re allowed to do that in this league with 53 players. We’ve had to have, ‘Next man up,’ a bunch, so I don’t think—I can’t predict the future. But whoever we keep we feel good about.”

thanks Cecil. Any update on CJ?

no update on CJ. He's likely to be cut and placed on the practice squad.

 

[Raider Nation]

Thanks for the updates, Cecil.

Say, would you mind kidnapping Dreessen and Tamme until January? TIA.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Yeah, because they don't move the primary back into the first team when they are preparing for the season to begin. They keep him on the bench well into the week 3 dress rehearsal and then don't have him run the predominance of the plays with the ones when they open the regular season in 9 days.

Makes sense.

I actually think it does in this case. What does Moreno need to show at this point in his career? The coaches know that with him they have a guy who isn't great, but he can protect the QB. The young guys need reps and the coaches need to see them perform. Obviously if the young guys do perform they will keep their spot, but if not 'ol reliable is sitting in his stable waiting.

Really? I mean, really? Tryouts are over. In week 3 of the PS teams are getting ready for real games. Where guys are running this week in practice, barring injury, is where they will line up week 1 of the regular season.

 

[Shutout]

Yeah, because they don't move the primary back into the first team when they are preparing for the season to begin. They keep him on the bench well into the week 3 dress rehearsal and then don't have him run the predominance of the plays with the ones when they open the regular season in 9 days.

Makes sense.

I actually think it does in this case. What does Moreno need to show at this point in his career? The coaches know that with him they have a guy who isn't great, but he can protect the QB. The young guys need reps and the coaches need to see them perform. Obviously if the young guys do perform they will keep their spot, but if not 'ol reliable is sitting in his stable waiting.

Really? I mean, really? Tryouts are over. In week 3 of the PS teams are getting ready for real games. Where guys are running this week in practice, barring injury, is where they will line up week 1 of the regular season.

So what happened last year when McGahee went down and the whole world shifted to get Hillman and then Fox came out the morning of the game and said "Moreno is our starter. He knows the system and can pass protect."

I agree with your statement that teams operate as you say but you also have to realize that when they do this, they know Moreno is available and doesn't need practice at pass blocking so he's ready to go. The other guys need the practice. The intent may be to use the others but when you get in a game and you NEED pass protection, do you think it is more likely that the Broncos will stay with the guys that can't do that job just because they practiced it or do you you think the team is capable of adjustments on the fly and say "send Moreno in there because Suggs and Dumervil are crushing us?"

That's something that hasn't been talked up so far. Look at that first opponent. Suggs. Dumervil, who I am sure will have a little extra gear that night. Daryl Smith who is playing terrific right now. The Broncos better be prepared to prtoect Manning come next Thursday or they will get their franchsie QB beaten up pretty good early in the season.

 

[Faust]

Broncos RBs have formed a committee

By Jeff Legwold | ESPN.com

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Look, folks can’t say they weren’t warned.

But the Broncos' depth chart at running back will be a fluid affair this season, until it’s not. It’s going to be a tough thing to pin down, that whole who’s-going-to-get-the-carries thing, and, truth be told, the Broncos kind of like it that way. This is a team which, after all, has had nine different running backs lead it in carries for at least one season since 1999.

“We don’t have a guy that’s going to be a 30-carry guy and we pretty much said, 'Hey, this is going to be a committee-type backfield’,’’ said offensive coordinator Adam Gase. “And we’ve never shied away from that.’’

Ronnie Hillman and Montee Ball have gone back and forth, splitting reps with the starters on offense throughout training camp and the preseason. While Hillman had the upper hand, albeit slightly, through offseason workouts and three preseason games, two fumbles in the past two games combined -- both of which were returned for touchdowns -- have now jumbled the order a bit. Ball got some additional work with the starters this week, but neither is expected to play much, if at all, in Thursday’s preseason finale against the Arizona Cardinals.

Then there is the matter of Knowshon Moreno. Because he is more proficient in pass protection than the other two, Moreno has gotten some premium snaps with the starters of late, including in the two-minute drill to close out the first half against the Rams on Saturday night. And that's no small item, given that Ball missed a block in Seattle that resulted in quarterback Peyton Manning taking one of the hardest hits in his time with the Broncos, a play Ball called the "worst feeling, seeing a future Hall of Famer get hit like that.''

All of which only makes the committee a little bigger. Toss in the fact that Jacob Hester can play fullback -- he's the only fullback on the roster at the moment -- and is a quality receiver out of the backfield, and things get even a little muddier.

Asked about the speculation about who will start and be the main guy, Broncos coach John Fox said, “Well, I don’t even know yet, so I don’t know how you all know. … We have good feelings about both (Ball and Hillman). As I mentioned … they’ll both carry a big load for us this season … they’re both very capable and we’re pleased with both of them.’’

Asked about Moreno, Fox added, "He’s high up there, too. If you look over my last two years, or my tenure here, we’ve leaned on a lot of different guys … whoever we keep we feel good about.’’

In terms of skill sets, you could make the argument that Ball, with a bigger frame, is the best first-down back in traditional run-game situations; that Hillman’s versatility and speed as a runner and receiver make him a good pick on those second-down plays of mid-range down and distance; and that Moreno, because he consistently makes the right choices in pass protection as well as when to release from the backfield and go into the pass pattern, makes the most sense on third down.

And in this age of specialization in the NFL, the Broncos runners could potentially take it one step further.

 

[Adam Harstad]

So what happened last year when McGahee went down and the whole world shifted to get Hillman and then Fox came out the morning of the game and said "Moreno is our starter. He knows the system and can pass protect."

I agree with your statement that teams operate as you say but you also have to realize that when they do this, they know Moreno is available and doesn't need practice at pass blocking so he's ready to go. The other guys need the practice. The intent may be to use the others but when you get in a game and you NEED pass protection, do you think it is more likely that the Broncos will stay with the guys that can't do that job just because they practiced it or do you you think the team is capable of adjustments on the fly and say "send Moreno in there because Suggs and Dumervil are crushing us?"

That's something that hasn't been talked up so far. Look at that first opponent. Suggs. Dumervil, who I am sure will have a little extra gear that night. Daryl Smith who is playing terrific right now. The Broncos better be prepared to prtoect Manning come next Thursday or they will get their franchsie QB beaten up pretty good early in the season.

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate. The team knows what they've got in Von Miller, *AND* he's suspended for the first 6 games so his backups could sure use some practice, and yet Miller still played the entire first half. Nobody needs less practice than Peyton Manning, and his backup is totally unknown, yet Osweiler has played a grand total of two drives with the first team this preseason (roughly the same amount as Moreno). Champ Bailey certainly doesn't need the practice, but he was playing with the first string until he got hurt. The team knows what they have in Ryan Clady, yet they still rushed him back so he could get some work with the first string offense Saturday.

The truth is, everyone needs the reps. Not just for themselves, but so everyone around them can get used to playing with them. Why do you think Peyton Manning makes such a big deal about getting reps with his receivers? They need to practice the same plays ad nauseum to develop some sort of timing. Moreno has been on the same field as Manning for literally a half dozen plays this preseason. He's spent by far the least time with the first-string offense. Where are the reps he's getting with Manning in preparation of being Manning's primary dump-off this season?

Also, when asked about his starting backs, John Fox said they'd be using them BOTH heavily (both = not Moreno). Fox didn't mention Moreno until specifically asked about him. Peyton Manning said, completely unprompted, that Denver would be starting a young, inexperienced RB this season, then followed that up by saying they'd be using Montee Ball a ton. Do you think they don't realize they'll be playing Baltimore in week 1? Do you think they'll show up at the stadium, see Elvis Dumervil warming up, and then say "oh crap, I totally forgot he played here now... guess we better start Moreno!"?

And even if Moreno does start (which he won't, barring injuries), chasing last year's numbers is pointless. Last year you had a fresh Moreno coming in 10 games into the season after not being hit for 8 weeks, sharing the field with the 180-lb Ronnie Hillman and the newly-signed Jacob Hester. This year, you have a Knowshon Moreno who is no fresher or healthier than the guys he's running against, sharing the field with the 195-lb Hillman who spent all offseason running with the first string, highly-drafted rookie Montee Ball who Peyton has repeatedly said would play a ton, and either a Jacob Hester more experienced in the offense, or else whoever beat out that more experienced Jacob Hester.

Moreno's only path to fantasy relevance at this point is wholly dependent on an injury to at least one, and more likely both, of the players currently running ahead of him. Which is equally true of a lot of other guys- Roy Helu, Knile Davis, Toby Gerhart. Knowshon Moreno has value, but no more than those guys have value.

 

[Chaka]

another possible cause for optimism with rookie ball...

RB is notorious for being offensive, skill position most amenable to excelling right away, as it is more intuitive and instinctive (hit the hole, run where they aint, etc.)...

that may be true in general, but in a lot of offenses, OC calls the play on the sideline, QB walks up to the LOS, that is play called...

manning, OTOH, is legendary for switching up play called with myriad audibles based on alignments, and what he is presented by defense, as he walks up to line, and as they make last second switches and realignments themselves...

so, it is possible ball's head is swimming right now because of the complexity of mannings audible possibilities... possibly exponentially more?

this could cause him to look slow, now, while he is processing everything, making him think instead of just react, effectively slowing him down...

with more reps and familiarity with scheme and myriad audible packages, we may see him speed up throughout the year, and begin to play faster...

That is an interesting theory. I like it.

 

[Anarchy99]

Broncos RBs have formed a committee

By Jeff Legwold | ESPN.com

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Look, folks can’t say they weren’t warned.

But the Broncos' depth chart at running back will be a fluid affair this season, until it’s not. It’s going to be a tough thing to pin down, that whole who’s-going-to-get-the-carries thing, and, truth be told, the Broncos kind of like it that way. This is a team which, after all, has had nine different running backs lead it in carries for at least one season since 1999.

“We don’t have a guy that’s going to be a 30-carry guy and we pretty much said, 'Hey, this is going to be a committee-type backfield’,’’ said offensive coordinator Adam Gase. “And we’ve never shied away from that.’’

Ronnie Hillman and Montee Ball have gone back and forth, splitting reps with the starters on offense throughout training camp and the preseason. While Hillman had the upper hand, albeit slightly, through offseason workouts and three preseason games, two fumbles in the past two games combined -- both of which were returned for touchdowns -- have now jumbled the order a bit. Ball got some additional work with the starters this week, but neither is expected to play much, if at all, in Thursday’s preseason finale against the Arizona Cardinals.

Then there is the matter of Knowshon Moreno. Because he is more proficient in pass protection than the other two, Moreno has gotten some premium snaps with the starters of late, including in the two-minute drill to close out the first half against the Rams on Saturday night. And that's no small item, given that Ball missed a block in Seattle that resulted in quarterback Peyton Manning taking one of the hardest hits in his time with the Broncos, a play Ball called the "worst feeling, seeing a future Hall of Famer get hit like that.''

All of which only makes the committee a little bigger. Toss in the fact that Jacob Hester can play fullback -- he's the only fullback on the roster at the moment -- and is a quality receiver out of the backfield, and things get even a little muddier.

Asked about the speculation about who will start and be the main guy, Broncos coach John Fox said, “Well, I don’t even know yet, so I don’t know how you all know. … We have good feelings about both (Ball and Hillman). As I mentioned … they’ll both carry a big load for us this season … they’re both very capable and we’re pleased with both of them.’’

Asked about Moreno, Fox added, "He’s high up there, too. If you look over my last two years, or my tenure here, we’ve leaned on a lot of different guys … whoever we keep we feel good about.’’

In terms of skill sets, you could make the argument that Ball, with a bigger frame, is the best first-down back in traditional run-game situations; that Hillman’s versatility and speed as a runner and receiver make him a good pick on those second-down plays of mid-range down and distance; and that Moreno, because he consistently makes the right choices in pass protection as well as when to release from the backfield and go into the pass pattern, makes the most sense on third down.

And in this age of specialization in the NFL, the Broncos runners could potentially take it one step further.

I'm not sure I see rotating RBs almost every play. That does not fit with a hurry up / no huddle offense (which DEN has been saying they will be running more this year).

 

[Thunderlips]

I'm sure its been said in the thread....but protecting Manning is more important than producing a 1,000 yard rusher.

 

[socrates]

Broncos RBs have formed a committee

By Jeff Legwold | ESPN.com

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Look, folks can’t say they weren’t warned.

But the Broncos' depth chart at running back will be a fluid affair this season, until it’s not. It’s going to be a tough thing to pin down, that whole who’s-going-to-get-the-carries thing, and, truth be told, the Broncos kind of like it that way. This is a team which, after all, has had nine different running backs lead it in carries for at least one season since 1999.

“We don’t have a guy that’s going to be a 30-carry guy and we pretty much said, 'Hey, this is going to be a committee-type backfield’,’’ said offensive coordinator Adam Gase. “And we’ve never shied away from that.’’

Ronnie Hillman and Montee Ball have gone back and forth, splitting reps with the starters on offense throughout training camp and the preseason. While Hillman had the upper hand, albeit slightly, through offseason workouts and three preseason games, two fumbles in the past two games combined -- both of which were returned for touchdowns -- have now jumbled the order a bit. Ball got some additional work with the starters this week, but neither is expected to play much, if at all, in Thursday’s preseason finale against the Arizona Cardinals.

Then there is the matter of Knowshon Moreno. Because he is more proficient in pass protection than the other two, Moreno has gotten some premium snaps with the starters of late, including in the two-minute drill to close out the first half against the Rams on Saturday night. And that's no small item, given that Ball missed a block in Seattle that resulted in quarterback Peyton Manning taking one of the hardest hits in his time with the Broncos, a play Ball called the "worst feeling, seeing a future Hall of Famer get hit like that.''

All of which only makes the committee a little bigger. Toss in the fact that Jacob Hester can play fullback -- he's the only fullback on the roster at the moment -- and is a quality receiver out of the backfield, and things get even a little muddier.

Asked about the speculation about who will start and be the main guy, Broncos coach John Fox said, “Well, I don’t even know yet, so I don’t know how you all know. … We have good feelings about both (Ball and Hillman). As I mentioned … they’ll both carry a big load for us this season … they’re both very capable and we’re pleased with both of them.’’

Asked about Moreno, Fox added, "He’s high up there, too. If you look over my last two years, or my tenure here, we’ve leaned on a lot of different guys … whoever we keep we feel good about.’’

In terms of skill sets, you could make the argument that Ball, with a bigger frame, is the best first-down back in traditional run-game situations; that Hillman’s versatility and speed as a runner and receiver make him a good pick on those second-down plays of mid-range down and distance; and that Moreno, because he consistently makes the right choices in pass protection as well as when to release from the backfield and go into the pass pattern, makes the most sense on third down.

And in this age of specialization in the NFL, the Broncos runners could potentially take it one step further.

I'm not sure I see rotating RBs almost every play. That does not fit with a hurry up / no huddle offense (which DEN has been saying they will be running more this year).

Agreed. Rotating RB's per series is a distinct possibility, however. The cream eventually rises to the top, so if one of these backs displays superior talent, he will get the lions share of carries going forward . . . well, superior talent, pass protection and ball security, I should say.

 

[Twenty-Four Eighty-Four]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5163/knowshon-moreno

Knowshon Moreno has been getting some "premium snaps with the starters of late."

Moreno is behind Ronnie Hillman and Montee Ball for the early-down work, but he may be the favorite in passing situations. During Saturday's third preseason game, Moreno got the reps when the Broncos were in a two-minute drill at the end of the first half. As the best pass protector of the trio, he'll also get plenty of third-down snaps. Denver's coaches and media continue to talk up the likelihood of a full-blown committee to open the season. Aug 28 - 10:08 AM

Source: ESPN.com

 

[socrates]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5163/knowshon-moreno

Knowshon Moreno has been getting some "premium snaps with the starters of late."

Moreno is behind Ronnie Hillman and Montee Ball for the early-down work, but he may be the favorite in passing situations. During Saturday's third preseason game, Moreno got the reps when the Broncos were in a two-minute drill at the end of the first half. As the best pass protector of the trio, he'll also get plenty of third-down snaps. Denver's coaches and media continue to talk up the likelihood of a full-blown committee to open the season. Aug 28 - 10:08 AM

Source: ESPN.com

The thing I find most interesting about that is that it is only now being reported that Moreno is getting some premium snaps with the starters. Coach Fox also left Moreno out of the following discussion, instead stating that both (Hillman and Ball) will carry a big load.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7440/ronnie-hillman

Ronnie Hillman regained the first-team reps during Tuesday's practice.
Coach John Fox shook the fantasy world on Monday when he gave Montee Ball first-team reps for the first time all camp. That was apparently a one-day punishment for Hillman's latest exhibition game fumble. Fox was asked Tuesday who his starting running back will be Week 1: "I don't even know yet, so I don't know how you all know," he said. "They'll both carry a big load for us this season, knock on wood. Whether it's '1A' and '1' or however you want to list it." This competition figures to rage on into the regular season. We still believe Ball is the best talent and best fit available to Fox. Tuesday's news will make Hillman a candidate to be overdrafted in leagues commencing over the next 48 hours. Aug 27 - 5:53 PM
Source: Denver Post

 

[BassNBrew]

It is what it is folks.

In standard leagues just avoid this mess and take Ivory if you need a starter. If you're looking for upside, draft Tate.

In bb leagues roll the dice on any of them. I personally like Ball for TDs.

In all leagues, just draft Manning.

 

[Bad_Mo]

I wont jump on the Moreno will be starting week 1 train, but this just screams of him having the most value. Even if he remains 3rd on the depth chart, if one of the other guys get injured he has a prominent role and may never let go of it.

OK. I'll play. Can't you say the same about the other two guys, too? If one guy gets hurt, the other two will benefit. And certainly the one who has the longest track record for injury is Moreno, so it's not really a stretch to suggest that Ball and Hillman would benefit if Moreno got hurt again.

I think the most likely outcome now is a RBBC and if any one of the 3 guys (or more if Anderson gets healthy quick enough) and the hot hand each week might get some extra work. At this point, I don't see things as one guy gets 25 touches and the two others combine for 5.

I dont disagree, I was more speaking of value in reference to ADP which Moreno is going way, way later to the point of being an afterthought.

Moreno wasn't even drafted in one of my 14 team leagues

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

It is what it is folks.

In standard leagues just avoid this mess and take Ivory if you need a starter. If you're looking for upside, draft Tate.

In bb leagues roll the dice on any of them. I personally like Ball for TDs.

In all leagues, just draft Manning.

:good posting:

some people make it harder than necessary

 

[bostonfred]

Ball was probably gettiing overdrafted. This negativity is pushing his adp to the point where he will be underdrafted. We have a rookie rb whose pass protection improved from game 2 to game 3, whose primary competition for carries was a change of pace back who fumbled away his carries, and a legacy rb drafted by the previous regime who looks great in pass pro and is a capable standin, but the coaches aren't even talking about him in the starting mix and it was newsworthy when he finally got some first team reps.

Its possible that ball never emerges. I know a lot of college football types swear that wisconsin rbs suck and that ball was just a product of his offensive line. Its been debated but it may be a legit critique. Its also possible that ball, who has shown good running and receiving skills, who can cut, spin, stiffarm, and do just about everything except blow people away with his speed, who is built like an every down back and has been compared favorably with terrell davis by elway, and whose pass protection looked much improved in game three of the preseason, is progressing well.

I predicted before the season that ball would be the goal line guy and a first and second down runner for the first few weeks, then take over as lead back and be a stud towards the end of the season. So far, things have played out almost exactly as I said they would. I don't see any reason to waver at this point. Some big numbers in the third preseason game might have been encouraging, but they wouldn't have helped keep his draft value cheap, and ball isn't a 60 yard run type of guy. More encouraging to me was when denver gave him the ball three straight times on first and goal from the ten, and he picked up 5, 4 and then the td. Or seeing him make a couple good blocks and receptions.

He looked like a rookie. A promising rookie who will get the most valuable carries for a team that's one of the best situations for running backs. Call it rbbc if you'd like, but it looks like a high upside situation to me and the cost has been pushed down to its best value of the offseason at just the right time. Strong buy.

 

[dagwood]

Ball was probably gettiing overdrafted. This negativity is pushing his adp to the point where he will be underdrafted. We have a rookie rb whose pass protection improved from game 2 to game 3, whose primary competition for carries was a change of pace back who fumbled away his carries, and a legacy rb drafted by the previous regime who looks great in pass pro and is a capable standin, but the coaches aren't even talking about him in the starting mix and it was newsworthy when he finally got some first team reps.

Its possible that ball never emerges. I know a lot of college football types swear that wisconsin rbs suck and that ball was just a product of his offensive line. Its been debated but it may be a legit critique. Its also possible that ball, who has shown good running and receiving skills, who can cut, spin, stiffarm, and do just about everything except blow people away with his speed, who is built like an every down back and has been compared favorably with terrell davis by elway, and whose pass protection looked much improved in game three of the preseason, is progressing well.

I predicted before the season that ball would be the goal line guy and a first and second down runner for the first few weeks, then take over as lead back and be a stud towards the end of the season. So far, things have played out almost exactly as I said they would. I don't see any reason to waver at this point. Some big numbers in the third preseason game might have been encouraging, but they wouldn't have helped keep his draft value cheap, and ball isn't a 60 yard run type of guy. More encouraging to me was when denver gave him the ball three straight times on first and goal from the ten, and he picked up 5, 4 and then the td. Or seeing him make a couple good blocks and receptions.

He looked like a rookie. A promising rookie who will get the most valuable carries for a team that's one of the best situations for running backs. Call it rbbc if you'd like, but it looks like a high upside situation to me and the cost has been pushed down to its best value of the offseason at just the right time. Strong buy.

 

[monk]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries ... Does that mean they dropping down their rosters?

Peyton getting as many reps as he is with rookie RBs blocking for him is irresponsible ...he has more attempts than any other star QB this preseason. If he had gotten injured when he got hammered the other day Fox might be looking for a job.

 

[JFS171]

In PPR, I'll take Moreno every single day, especially at his dirt cheap price. Standard may lean Ball a little bit due to the supposed goalline role, but I won't be surprised at all if Moreno emerges with even more value. IMO we've seen this movie before, and I become more convinced of it day by day. Knowshon Moreno = Joseph Addai circa 2009.

In 2008, Addai played only 12 games, rushed for a whopping 3.5 YPC, had 25 receptions, 7 total TDs, and battled injuries. The Colts turned around and used the 27th overall pick (note - not a late 2nd or 3rd round selection) on Donald Brown. He was the heir-apparent, the guy that was supposed to fix the running game issues for Indy. He was the hot new toy in a Peyton Manning offense. Addai was cooked, until...

Addai wasn't cooked. Fast forward through the 2009 season and Addai finished with 219 carries for 828 yards, 51receptions for another 336 yards, and 13 total TDs. His efficiency metrics? Nothing special - 3.8 per carry, 6.6 per reception. But he won many fantasy titles for his owners as the cheap, old, broken down 26-year old former first rounder who never quite lived up to expectations. Sound familiar?

There's a clear link here -- Peyton Manning.

The beauty of a Manning-led offense is his ability to capitalize ANY GIVEN PLAY on the weakness of the defense. Pass or run, he'll find the area of the field the defense cannot adequately defend, and he'll exploit it. Now do you honestly believe Peyton is going to fully endorse a RB that makes him think twice about audibling to any given play? Especially a pass play because the current RB in the game isn't a great pass protector and he's got to worry about whether he'll get his head taken off? I don't.

Here's the other concern that no one is talking about - given Ball's struggles thus far in pass protection, Denver's probably not likely to put him in those situations, right? If we all know that, don't you think NFL defenses certainly know that? While Manning will help mitigate that to some extent, Drew Brees is also a pretty good QB though, and he wasn't able to fully mitigate defenses keying on the run when another touted rookie Mark Ingram came in the game. Defenses keyed on the run and blew up a lot of plays. Fantasy owners were disappointed. My point is that the Broncos know they've got to be careful to not have a situation where Ball comes in and the offense goes to a running play. Predictability is the enemy here -- or defenses will blow it up every single play.

Give me Moreno... I'll roll the dice there. Not to mention he looks pretty good to me thus far - better as a runner than last year IMO.

 

[bonesman]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries

At much different points in the game. And how many of those teams spent a 2nd round pick on a RB? C'mon man.

 

[HurryUpSundays]

Cecil,

Knowing what you know, seeing what you see, should Moreno be rostered over the Mendy, Ingram, and Redman's?

TIA.

 

[Chaka]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries

At much different points in the game. And how many of those teams spent a 2nd round pick on a RB? C'mon man.

Minnesota, New Orleans (1st round actually), Seattle and San Francisco.

 

[ponchsox]

In PPR, I'll take Moreno every single day, especially at his dirt cheap price. Standard may lean Ball a little bit due to the supposed goalline role, but I won't be surprised at all if Moreno emerges with even more value. IMO we've seen this movie before, and I become more convinced of it day by day. Knowshon Moreno = Joseph Addai circa 2009.

In 2008, Addai played only 12 games, rushed for a whopping 3.5 YPC, had 25 receptions, 7 total TDs, and battled injuries. The Colts turned around and used the 27th overall pick (note - not a late 2nd or 3rd round selection) on Donald Brown. He was the heir-apparent, the guy that was supposed to fix the running game issues for Indy. He was the hot new toy in a Peyton Manning offense. Addai was cooked, until...

Addai wasn't cooked. Fast forward through the 2009 season and Addai finished with 219 carries for 828 yards, 51receptions for another 336 yards, and 13 total TDs. His efficiency metrics? Nothing special - 3.8 per carry, 6.6 per reception. But he won many fantasy titles for his owners as the cheap, old, broken down 26-year old former first rounder who never quite lived up to expectations. Sound familiar?

There's a clear link here -- Peyton Manning.

The beauty of a Manning-led offense is his ability to capitalize ANY GIVEN PLAY on the weakness of the defense. Pass or run, he'll find the area of the field the defense cannot adequately defend, and he'll exploit it. Now do you honestly believe Peyton is going to fully endorse a RB that makes him think twice about audibling to any given play? Especially a pass play because the current RB in the game isn't a great pass protector and he's got to worry about whether he'll get his head taken off? I don't.

Here's the other concern that no one is talking about - given Ball's struggles thus far in pass protection, Denver's probably not likely to put him in those situations, right? If we all know that, don't you think NFL defenses certainly know that? While Manning will help mitigate that to some extent, Drew Brees is also a pretty good QB though, and he wasn't able to fully mitigate defenses keying on the run when another touted rookie Mark Ingram came in the game. Defenses keyed on the run and blew up a lot of plays. Fantasy owners were disappointed. My point is that the Broncos know they've got to be careful to not have a situation where Ball comes in and the offense goes to a running play. Predictability is the enemy here -- or defenses will blow it up every single play.

Give me Moreno... I'll roll the dice there. Not to mention he looks pretty good to me thus far - better as a runner than last year IMO.

So based on what you said, Ball is in there to eat up yards when the Broncos are ahead but Moreno will be in there when Denver is trying to catch up or in a close game?

 

[JFS171]

So based on what you said, Ball is in there to eat up yards when the Broncos are ahead but Moreno will be in there when Denver is trying to catch up or in a close game?

If they're behind, in the 2 minute offense, playing hurry-up to exploit matchups, etc - then yes, I think Moreno will be in the game. but that doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to catch-up or in a close game. The Pats used the hurry up frequently last year to build leads. Manning's quite comfortable running the hurry-up to build leads himself.

There's just enough signs (IMO) that point to Moreno being the most valuable guy when it's all said and done, but I've never been a huge Montee Ball guy. He looks to me to be the product of that Wisconsin system with mediocre measurables to back it up.

That's just one man's opinion, but... I'll stick with Knowshon.

 

[Bob Magaw]

In PPR, I'll take Moreno every single day, especially at his dirt cheap price. Standard may lean Ball a little bit due to the supposed goalline role, but I won't be surprised at all if Moreno emerges with even more value. IMO we've seen this movie before, and I become more convinced of it day by day. Knowshon Moreno = Joseph Addai circa 2009.

In 2008, Addai played only 12 games, rushed for a whopping 3.5 YPC, had 25 receptions, 7 total TDs, and battled injuries. The Colts turned around and used the 27th overall pick (note - not a late 2nd or 3rd round selection) on Donald Brown. He was the heir-apparent, the guy that was supposed to fix the running game issues for Indy. He was the hot new toy in a Peyton Manning offense. Addai was cooked, until...

Addai wasn't cooked. Fast forward through the 2009 season and Addai finished with 219 carries for 828 yards, 51receptions for another 336 yards, and 13 total TDs. His efficiency metrics? Nothing special - 3.8 per carry, 6.6 per reception. But he won many fantasy titles for his owners as the cheap, old, broken down 26-year old former first rounder who never quite lived up to expectations. Sound familiar?

There's a clear link here -- Peyton Manning.

The beauty of a Manning-led offense is his ability to capitalize ANY GIVEN PLAY on the weakness of the defense. Pass or run, he'll find the area of the field the defense cannot adequately defend, and he'll exploit it. Now do you honestly believe Peyton is going to fully endorse a RB that makes him think twice about audibling to any given play? Especially a pass play because the current RB in the game isn't a great pass protector and he's got to worry about whether he'll get his head taken off? I don't.

Here's the other concern that no one is talking about - given Ball's struggles thus far in pass protection, Denver's probably not likely to put him in those situations, right? If we all know that, don't you think NFL defenses certainly know that? While Manning will help mitigate that to some extent, Drew Brees is also a pretty good QB though, and he wasn't able to fully mitigate defenses keying on the run when another touted rookie Mark Ingram came in the game. Defenses keyed on the run and blew up a lot of plays. Fantasy owners were disappointed. My point is that the Broncos know they've got to be careful to not have a situation where Ball comes in and the offense goes to a running play. Predictability is the enemy here -- or defenses will blow it up every single play.

Give me Moreno... I'll roll the dice there. Not to mention he looks pretty good to me thus far - better as a runner than last year IMO.

oh, people have definitely discussed blocking in the thread, a lot...

some reports said he looked improved in that department against rams (STL and DEN led NFL in sacks in 2012 with 52 each)... not directed at this post, just general observation and comment to thread at whole, sometimes it seems like positions can become so entrenched that only evidence that supports that position is noted...

ball has some issues, he may not start, or at least not right away...

it is interesting how people can look at same thing and have two very different interpretations... some of the camp news was pretty harsh, that he would go through whole practices with a long run of three yards... i can't forget the good things i saw him do at wisconsin...

about the wisconsin RBs can't succeed meme (lent an assist by dayne's lackluster career)... point taken, a hulking OL could help him get to the second level easier... but when ball and any other RB are in open field, in same position, all things being equal, you can effectively subtract out the OL factor for the purposes of evaluating THAT play, and how respective RBs stack up (in other words, evaluating them on own merits, not on school based exclusionary heuristic)... he is a listed 217 lbs, nifty feet, can sidestep tackles and has underrated power (nasty stiff arm)... he had as many TDs as barry sanders in his junior season...

to flip the script on addai analogy, it was well conceived, you could be right... one potentially important difference, though, addai had succeeded at high level over multiple seasons previously... morenos's career has generally been disappointment... he did produce in second half of season last year, but as far as i can recall, has been unable so far to string together even one viable full season...

also very good point about predictability/tendency if they only run when ball is in...

couple points there...

i think receiving out of backfiled is option... he wasn't used that way a lot in college, but doesn't mean he can't, just wasn't used that way... he did have bad drop in recent game, but i've heard some positives in practice that he has adequate if not exceptional, marshall faulk, brian westbrook-type hands out of the backfield (they probably won't split him out like a WR too much)...

if ball proves a competent runner, that threat makes play action work, and he can be a decoy which manning throws out of...

the converse of that, and back to addai... i'll borrow/recycle your analogy to a different end, maybe ball can be addai-like and not moreno... compared to when addai was early in career... why did he succeed? he did have very good hands (started as WR in college and converted to RB?), likely better than ball... but was he a special, gifted runner... will he ever be in any hall of fame conversations for his rushing prowess? of course not... peyton manning enabled him to fluorish, because when he would spread out offense with multiple WRs and TEs, that is what scared defenses, not addai? they won't be scared by ball either, not for a while, anyways... manning calls a spread pass play, when defenses adjusted alignment, he audibles, and addai/ball run through gaping holes...

manning had great receiving weapons back in the day with harrison, wayne, clark, et al... but thomas, decker, welker and julius thomas could also be very formidable...

 

[Bronco Billy]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries ... Does that mean they dropping down their rosters?

Peyton getting as many reps as he is with rookie RBs blocking for him is irresponsible ...he has more attempts than any other star QB this preseason. If he had gotten injured when he got hammered the other day Fox might be looking for a job.

did you really just compare Moreno's position to AD's?

 

[bonesman]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries

At much different points in the game. And how many of those teams spent a 2nd round pick on a RB? C'mon man.

Minnesota, New Orleans (1st round actually), Seattle and San Francisco.

This year, smart ###

 

[Chaka]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries

At much different points in the game. And how many of those teams spent a 2nd round pick on a RB? C'mon man.

Minnesota, New Orleans (1st round actually), Seattle and San Francisco.

This year, smart ###

What difference does it make? They were all drafted with the players mentioned above on the team already.

And the answer is Seattle.

 

[bonesman]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries

At much different points in the game. And how many of those teams spent a 2nd round pick on a RB? C'mon man.

Minnesota, New Orleans (1st round actually), Seattle and San Francisco.

This year, smart ###

What difference does it make? They were all drafted with the players mentioned above on the team already.

And the answer is Seattle.

It makes a ton of difference, a years worth of difference actually, as the context of the conversation is preseason usage patters of incumbent players.

But yea, Monk is probably right, the Broncos probably see Moreno as ADP, Morris, McCoy, Lynch, Gore etc are seen by their respective teams.

 

[Chaka]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries

At much different points in the game. And how many of those teams spent a 2nd round pick on a RB? C'mon man.

Minnesota, New Orleans (1st round actually), Seattle and San Francisco.

This year, smart ###

What difference does it make? They were all drafted with the players mentioned above on the team already.

And the answer is Seattle.

It makes a ton of difference, a years worth of difference actually, as the context of the conversation is preseason usage patters of incumbent players.

But yea, Monk is probably right, the Broncos probably see Moreno as ADP, Morris, McCoy, Lynch, Gore etc are seen by their respective teams.

I am not so sure about the second part (let's be real Knowshown is nowhere near some of those guys) but the point was how many teams with a clear number one back draft another RB with a high pick and actually it happens quite often because you need more than one competent back. Honestly drafting Ball could be viewed as much of an indictment of Hillman as Knowshown.

 

[Thews40]

As a Denver homer I hear all the talk radio which is fairly relevant. Of the three, Moreno is the only proven back that can do it all, and he's done a good job when healthy. When pass protection is the most important aspect with PFM being the spotlight of this team, that's what counts IMO. The Broncos are Superbowl bound or it'll be a disappointment. When the Broncos are up by 14, who do you think they'll want in there? Hillman has small hands and coughs it up. Ball is a rookie and needs to prove he can protect the QB; one missed block and Payton gets pasted. They're all RBBC type guys, but Moreno is the only one worth the draft pick where he's going IMO.

 

[monk]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries ... Does that mean they dropping down their rosters?

Peyton getting as many reps as he is with rookie RBs blocking for him is irresponsible ...he has more attempts than any other star QB this preseason. If he had gotten injured when he got hammered the other day Fox might be looking for a job.

did you really just compare Moreno's position to AD's?

Actually no ... We were discussing how NFL franchises operate (I even highlighted it for you)

But reading compression seems to be a problem that keeps this thread alive ... so way contribute !!!

 

[Chaka]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries ... Does that mean they dropping down their rosters?

Peyton getting as many reps as he is with rookie RBs blocking for him is irresponsible ...he has more attempts than any other star QB this preseason. If he had gotten injured when he got hammered the other day Fox might be looking for a job.

did you really just compare Moreno's position to AD's?

Actually no ... We were discussing how NFL franchises operate (I even highlighted it for you)

But reading compression seems to be a problem that keeps this thread alive ... so way contribute !!!

A) I never understand why people immediately jump to insults. It's really poor form IMO.

B) If you are going to insult someone you might want to verify the auto-fill before posting.

 

[dmac37]

As a Denver homer I hear all the talk radio which is fairly relevant. Of the three, Moreno is the only proven back that can do it all, and he's done a good job when healthy. When pass protection is the most important aspect with PFM being the spotlight of this team, that's what counts IMO. The Broncos are Superbowl bound or it'll be a disappointment. When the Broncos are up by 14, who do you think they'll want in there? Hillman has small hands and coughs it up. Ball is a rookie and needs to prove he can protect the QB; one missed block and Payton gets pasted. They're all RBBC type guys, but Moreno is the only one worth the draft pick where he's going IMO.

This

 

[Buffaloes]

But reading compression seems to be a problem that keeps this thread alive ... so way contribute !!!

heh

 

[ItsOnlytheRiver]

Yeah, because they don't move the primary back into the first team when they are preparing for the season to begin. They keep him on the bench well into the week 3 dress rehearsal and then don't have him run the predominance of the plays with the ones when they open the regular season in 9 days.

Makes sense.

I actually think it does in this case. What does Moreno need to show at this point in his career? The coaches know that with him they have a guy who isn't great, but he can protect the QB. The young guys need reps and the coaches need to see them perform. Obviously if the young guys do perform they will keep their spot, but if not 'ol reliable is sitting in his stable waiting.

Really? I mean, really? Tryouts are over. In week 3 of the PS teams are getting ready for real games. Where guys are running this week in practice, barring injury, is where they will line up week 1 of the regular season.

Probably. Glad you have it all figured it out.

 

[Englishteacher]

As a Denver homer I hear all the talk radio which is fairly relevant. Of the three, Moreno is the only proven back that can do it all, and he's done a good job when healthy. When pass protection is the most important aspect with PFM being the spotlight of this team, that's what counts IMO. The Broncos are Superbowl bound or it'll be a disappointment. When the Broncos are up by 14, who do you think they'll want in there? Hillman has small hands and coughs it up. Ball is a rookie and needs to prove he can protect the QB; one missed block and Payton gets pasted. They're all RBBC type guys, but Moreno is the only one worth the draft pick where he's going IMO.

This

Yup. If it's a go for the best value.

 

[bonesman]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries

At much different points in the game. And how many of those teams spent a 2nd round pick on a RB? C'mon man.

Minnesota, New Orleans (1st round actually), Seattle and San Francisco.

This year, smart ###

What difference does it make? They were all drafted with the players mentioned above on the team already.

And the answer is Seattle.

It makes a ton of difference, a years worth of difference actually, as the context of the conversation is preseason usage patters of incumbent players.

But yea, Monk is probably right, the Broncos probably see Moreno as ADP, Morris, McCoy, Lynch, Gore etc are seen by their respective teams.

I am not so sure about the second part (let's be real Knowshown is nowhere near some of those guys) but the point was how many teams with a clear number one back draft another RB with a high pick and actually it happens quite often because you need more than one competent back. Honestly drafting Ball could be viewed as much of an indictment of Hillman as Knowshown.

Was kidding about the 2nd part. And the point wasn't the underlined, the point was about preseason usage and the depth chart. The whole line that monk bolded about teams that "know what they got". I prob shouldn't even have mentioned the draft... pointing out WHEN they were used should've been enough to highlight the ridiculousness of that point.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries ... Does that mean they dropping down their rosters?

Peyton getting as many reps as he is with rookie RBs blocking for him is irresponsible ...he has more attempts than any other star QB this preseason. If he had gotten injured when he got hammered the other day Fox might be looking for a job.

did you really just compare Moreno's position to AD's?

Actually no ... We were discussing how NFL franchises operate (I even highlighted it for you)But reading compression seems to be a problem that keeps this thread alive ... so way contribute !!!

Yeah, how they operate with proven RBs who have been well documented workhorses for what they do for their team, and which was clearly your basis of comparison of Moreno to a guy like AP - whose name I might add that you introduced as a point of comparison. Maybe YOU ought to read what you write before you decide to throw some darts at people. Bit then that reading compression thing can be a #####.

 

[jdubs952]

Drafted last night, ball went in the fifth, Moreno in the 8th, and I took Hillman in the 11th.

 

[Short Corner]

IMO, Moreno will get a lot of work due to his proficiency in keeping the ball and his QB off the turf. If I am taking a DEN RB I am taking the last one off the board. The difference in EV is much closer than their ADPs would indicate. My last draft on Sun had Ball (7th), Hilman (10th) and I took Knowshow in the 15th.

 

[pantherclub]

Is Moreno 100% healthy?

 

[Adam Harstad]

IMO, Moreno will get a lot of work due to his proficiency in keeping the ball and his QB off the turf. If I am taking a DEN RB I am taking the last one off the board. The difference in EV is much closer than their ADPs would indicate. My last draft on Sun had Ball (7th), Hilman (10th) and I took Knowshow in the 15th.

I think this represents fair value for all three. Ball has the highest upside but can't be relied on right now, Hillman seems to currently have the inside track to the most touches but has very little chance of becoming a true workhorse, and Moreno is a 2nd-tier handcuff.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Is Moreno 100% healthy?

I haven't heard anything to the contrary, although we all know franchises are capable of disguising injuries if it suits them. Still, as good as Moreno looked against the Rams, I'd venture he's the healthiest I've seen him in years.

 

[monk]

I don't understand this whole "they know what they've got so he doesn't need the reps" thing. That's not how NFL franchises operate.

AP, MJD, McCoy, Morris, Mcfadden, Sproles, Lynch, Gore, Martin have all had the same or less carries ... Does that mean they dropping down their rosters?

Peyton getting as many reps as he is with rookie RBs blocking for him is irresponsible ...he has more attempts than any other star QB this preseason. If he had gotten injured when he got hammered the other day Fox might be looking for a job.

did you really just compare Moreno's position to AD's?

Actually no ... We were discussing how NFL franchises operate (I even highlighted it for you)But reading compression seems to be a problem that keeps this thread alive ... so way contribute !!!

Yeah, how they operate with proven RBs who have been well documented workhorses for what they do for their team, and which was clearly your basis of comparison of Moreno to a guy like AP - whose name I might add that you introduced as a point of comparison.Maybe YOU ought to read what you write before you decide to throw some darts at people. Bit then that reading compression thing can be a #####.

Never much gave a #### about spelling and grammar in a Fanatasy Football thread but since you brought it up ...WHAT THE FVK does "Bit then that reading compression thing can be a #####" mean?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Yeah, it should have been but rather than bit, but you probably knew that and couldn't help yourself.

Maybe YOU ought to read what you write before you decide to throw some darts at people.

 

[HurryUpSundays]

And another thread bites the dust.