schaef2k
Footballguy
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Browns fire Carthon (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter schaef2k
- Start date
Really? I'm not a Clev. fan, I like Charlie Frye, and I've always been a fan of Romeo because he seems like such a classy guy, I've been under the impression he was getting that franchise turned around in the right direction.
schaef2k
Footballguy
I like Romeo but he just it just looks like he has no fire. Emotionless on the sideline, after the game interviews are a joke. He is as bad a Butch Davis. When you get your ### handed to you can not sit there and say “well we did some things well, we have to work on some things” every week or his best line “if the play would have worked then it would have been a good play”. Are you kidding me!I can only hope he shows some fire in the locker room.
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
You're right, he should show more fire in post-game.....maybe use Denny Green as a role model. Then Crennel would be a great coach.
slinky
Footballguy
I think Romeo will be fine. He may be under the magnifying glass now, but I like the way he handles the team and the media. Firing Carthon was the best move he could have made, granted it was a day late and a dollar short. I've heard the rumblings that Davidson would take over call playing, and I think he may be best suited for that role. Robiskie had his chance two years back and laid an egg.
Hopefully things will turn around now.
:fingerscrossed:
Hopefully things will turn around now.
:fingerscrossed:
ooof...that bad? I thought he had built a fairly solid group of young guys to build around. Frye, Edwards, KWII, Droughns, seem to be a fairly solid group to build around. The loss of LeCharles Bently really set the tone for Cleveland.......god can you guys up there every catch a break???
coolnerd
Footballguy
The public personality we see of a coach has very little with his passion for the game or his ability to be a leader of men. For every Bill Cowher there is at least one the Bill Belichek (sp) etc. Firey emotion is near the top of things overrated by fans. Bad teams often look passionless.
The local sports talk radio station already had set aside today as "MAC day", referring to Mid-American Conference college athletics day. They are doing a remote at one of the schools and have a ton of guests lined up, so its very hard to get any reaction or insight on this news. Browns picked a pretty good day to make this move, I guess.
Romeo got a mulligan for 2005 because the front office blew the team up. Its 2006, he's not gonna get a mulligan again. Romeo is 1-5. He has done nothing to turn this team around at this point.
If anything, the offense under Crennel has never been worse. They were dead-last in the NFL a year ago in points scored. They are dead-last in the NFL in offensive yardage so far this year. Sure, the 1999-2000 clubs were also bad, but this offense has more talent. Not surprising they made this move, but things need to improve fast.
I see the expectations of Crennel this way:
2005: no expectations
2006: should see progress, or some flashes of a good team developing. Upset some good clubs.
2007: should contend for a playoff spot.
Right now, Crennel is behind the curve. His team need a second half rally against the Raiders or it would be 0-6. Its not time to fire Crennel yet, but progress needs to be shown before this year is out. If this team is 1-5 next year, Crennel should be on the verge of getting canned.
2005: no expectations
2006: should see progress, or some flashes of a good team developing. Upset some good clubs.
2007: should contend for a playoff spot.
Right now, Crennel is behind the curve. His team need a second half rally against the Raiders or it would be 0-6. Its not time to fire Crennel yet, but progress needs to be shown before this year is out. If this team is 1-5 next year, Crennel should be on the verge of getting canned.
As a comparison, Butch Davis went 7-9 in his first year as the head coach of the Browns. In his second year, he went 9-7 and made the playoffs. That was way ahead of expectations - that club had far less talent than the 2006 edition does. Then in each of the next 3 years, the Browns were devastated by injuries.
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I think it's too early to fire Crennel...he should get at least one more season
The organization has basically given him nothing to work with the last two years. Combine that with the fact that the AFC North has been one of, if not the toughest division in football and it's easy to see why the Browns are where they are.
As far as Carthon going, I don't know what it means from a fantasy perspective. The team is committed to Frye at QB, Edwards as the #1 WR, and Winslow at TE for sure.
The only shakeup that could happen from a fantasy perspective may be (and it could just be wishful thinking on my part since I've had the guy rotting on the bench all year) more touches for Jerome Harrison. He may be worth stashing away.
The organization has basically given him nothing to work with the last two years. Combine that with the fact that the AFC North has been one of, if not the toughest division in football and it's easy to see why the Browns are where they are.
As far as Carthon going, I don't know what it means from a fantasy perspective. The team is committed to Frye at QB, Edwards as the #1 WR, and Winslow at TE for sure.
The only shakeup that could happen from a fantasy perspective may be (and it could just be wishful thinking on my part since I've had the guy rotting on the bench all year) more touches for Jerome Harrison. He may be worth stashing away.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
LOL This is why I love Cleveland fans. If they let Romeo go they are gonna regret it the way they regret BB. Fact of the matter is every one of the offseason aquisitions has been injured at some point this season and were the talent of that team lies (offense) they have had Carthon using Droughns when he should be using KWII and Braylon.
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
I think Savage & Co have made some decent personel moves via draft and FA, but the injury bug seems to be biting you guys in a big way
Baxter...$30M worth...has 2 blown patella's and just might be done permanently
Bently, the major O-line addition, goes out on the 1st day of practice...followed by 2 or 3 more centers!
the pillage to the O-line has caused a problem in the running game, for sure---THAT has to improve before things can get going for the offense
and alittle less in the gimic department, as that stuff shows desperation...I'd rather see my team get beat squarely at the point of attack rather than pull the old rookie-half-back-option toss
LT pulls it off because you need to respect his ability...Vickers & Co have a ways to go
Baxter...$30M worth...has 2 blown patella's and just might be done permanently
Bently, the major O-line addition, goes out on the 1st day of practice...followed by 2 or 3 more centers!
the pillage to the O-line has caused a problem in the running game, for sure---THAT has to improve before things can get going for the offense
and alittle less in the gimic department, as that stuff shows desperation...I'd rather see my team get beat squarely at the point of attack rather than pull the old rookie-half-back-option toss
LT pulls it off because you need to respect his ability...Vickers & Co have a ways to go
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
And the Browns haven't been this year... seriously if you're going to say that about Butch give Romeo a bigger break. Bentley, McGinist, Baxter, Droughns, JJ, and not too mention still recovering KWII and Braylon and this team is still going through some big growing pains. The play calling on offense has been downright awful but you all knew when you brought Romeo in you weren't doing so for his offense so he will need to team up with a talented offensive mind and they have the talent, except for RB, to make that offense something good if not great.BGP said:
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
At what point do Browns' fans point the finger at ownership? This team is 37-81 (31% wins) since they returned in 1999 under the Lerners. Modell actually looks pretty good next to these guys.
Probably the same as before this news. He and Winslow both have tremendous talent but they're not going to jump to the next level until Frye gets some more experience under his belt. So he'll probably continue to be sporadic in his production.
fatness
Footballguy
From the article:
I haven't followed the Browns much this year. What were some of the calls and personnel decisions the witer is talking about?-------------------------------------------------------------------------Just quoted from the article because it's funny.
"Let's switch things up this year, Maurice.""OK""Um, that's not what I meant."
Well, there have been THREE different ownership groups in the first 7 years of this franchise.1. Al Lerner and Carmen Policy.2. Randy Lerner and Carmen Policy.3. Randy Lerner (Policy's ownership stake was bought out).One of the issues is that ownership hasn't even been stable.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Running the ball on 3rd and 8's will do this to an OC.From the article:
I haven't followed the Browns much this year. What were some of the calls and personnel decisions the witer is talking about?-------------------------------------------------------------------------Just quoted from the article because it's funny."Let's switch things up this year, Maurice.""OK""Um, that's not what I meant."
As will having Kellen Winslow on the sideline for 3rd downs.Running the ball on 3rd and 8's will do this to an OC.From the article:
I haven't followed the Browns much this year. What were some of the calls and personnel decisions the witer is talking about?-------------------------------------------------------------------------Just quoted from the article because it's funny."Let's switch things up this year, Maurice.""OK""Um, that's not what I meant."
Part of it is the predictability of the offense. For example after the Browns-Panthers game, some of the Panthers were saying it was easy to tell what play was coming. Part of it is third down. On third and short they call slow-developing sweeps to Vickers or take Kellen Winslow out of the game.
schaef2k
Footballguy
Well Carthon loves his fullbacks. 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 it’s usually a screen pass to the fullback. Don’t get me wrong I love Terrell Smith but the guy can’t catch to save his life. I think I’ve watched the Brown try to run for short yardage once this year. The infamous fullback pass on 4th and 1.Another problem is personnel packages. Winslow off the field in critical situations and the overall predictability of the plays.Maybe if he actually sat in the booth and not the sidelines he might see the plays a bit better also.
nxmehta
Footballguy
I have seen many, many fans complain about Romeo not losing his #### on the sideline when we lose. Honestly, what kind of ######ed argument is this? How many times have you seen Bill Belichick freak out on the sidelines? And how many rings does he have? Who cares what he looks like on the sidelines?It's fans/media like this that like to stir the pot up in Cleveland, making obscure complaints with no sensible football based arguments. Year after year, fans expect a complete freaking turnaround and a trip to the Superbowl. Wake up guys, Romeo's not going to build Rome in a year. Give the guy some time, he's a good coach and is finally supported by some decent management.In any case, it's good to see Carthon go. The arguments against his playcalling are sound (too many FB plays, yikes). Although most Browns fans just want Frye to throw to KW2/BE on every down (morons, maybe sometimes these guys aren't open?!). I would caution those people who want the Browns to "open up the offense" to look back at the Denver game and see how well we did with passing on every down. Things will get better, but don't expect much to change until Davidson has time to figure stuff out.schaef2k said:
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
I don't know if Crennel is a good coach or not. And I really don't care since I'm not a Browns fan. But the bottom line is that NFL coaches will usually not win unless they have the best players. You can talk about chemistry, playcalling, clock management, etc, but without superior talent most coaches (even very good ones) will consistently lose.
Cleveland is not a very talented team. Therefore they are not going to win many games, no matter who is the coach. Firing the OC probably won't make much of a difference until the Browns improve the talent on the field. The same goes for the Lions, Cardinals, Raiders, etc. You can blame the coaching and perhaps rightfully so, but I place more blame on the players and the GM. Does it really matter who is the coach of the Browns when you have superior talent on the Bengals, Steelers, and Ravens? Does anyone honestly think the Browns are capable of a winning season with their current roster compared to the other teams in their division and the AFC as a whole?
Cleveland is not a very talented team. Therefore they are not going to win many games, no matter who is the coach. Firing the OC probably won't make much of a difference until the Browns improve the talent on the field. The same goes for the Lions, Cardinals, Raiders, etc. You can blame the coaching and perhaps rightfully so, but I place more blame on the players and the GM. Does it really matter who is the coach of the Browns when you have superior talent on the Bengals, Steelers, and Ravens? Does anyone honestly think the Browns are capable of a winning season with their current roster compared to the other teams in their division and the AFC as a whole?
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
I think I am missing your point considering the following... Detroit has Kevin Jones and Roy Williams, Arizona has Edge, Fitz and Boldin, the Raiders Randy Moss and the Browns LeCharles Bentley, Braylon Edwards and KWII. Talent has nothing to do with winning or did you fall asleep during the Patriots dynasty?And for the record I think the Browns have a pretty decent roster talent wise, they have just caught the injury bug a lot.
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Timberlend
Footballguy
Im just praying the Steelers let Cowher go. Nothing would mean more to the Browns fans then to see our favorite son come home.
No offense to Romeo as I do think he has done a solid job in lieu of the parts he has to work with.
I just wish they would either do horrible and get the high draft pick or make the playoffs. Cause these 6-10, 7-9 seasons are such a tease.
No offense to Romeo as I do think he has done a solid job in lieu of the parts he has to work with.
I just wish they would either do horrible and get the high draft pick or make the playoffs. Cause these 6-10, 7-9 seasons are such a tease.
coolnerd
Footballguy
Delusions Of Adequacy
Footballguy
So you're saying he attended the Art Shell School of Football Coaching?schaef2k said:
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
That is exactly my point. All of those teams have a handful of players that are top shelf talent. But that's it. Now compare those rosters to the rosters of other teams in their respective divisions. Cleveland is arguably the least talented team in the AFC North. Sure they are decent, but Pitt, Cinci, and Baltimore are all better. And the Patriots established a Dynasty because they had a very talented, well balanced roster. Bill Belichick is a great coach, but he had a great team too. Don't buy into the myth that the Patriots were a David vs. Goliath team. They were the Goliath, just without the flash and hype. They were also the best team in their Division at the time. It all starts by winning your Division games. Send Belicheck back to the Browns and he finishes below .500 guaranteed.
schaef2k
Footballguy
Well you do need talent to win but good coaching will get you more wins with less talent.The difference between the Browns talent and the rest of there division is really 2 maybe 3 things.Oline- The oline in Cleveland has sucked every year since their return. Savage brought in Bentley (out for the year), Ephram (drugs), Halen (retires) and Sowells (roockie+injured). Now it's Freley at C.Dline- Big Ted is just a stop gap for who ever they get next year. The rest are not spectacular, Roye has his moments but they can get it done.QB- Is Frye the guy? I don't know. He makes mistakes but he's young, can move pretty good, throws a nice ball and he's got fire.If our top 3 CBs don't get injured then this would have been a strength. We've been playing the #4+ CBs all year. LB fine, WR fine, TE fine, RB fine (can always use a good back though).I think Savage has done well. Perkins and Wilson are the only real disappointments so far. Savage is light years above the previous Browns talent evaluators. Next year he will draft oline and dline and plug some vets into the remaining holes and the Browns will be right with the rest of the division talent wise.Coaching wise.....TBDSorry for the book
Browns starting OG Joe Andruzzi did a radio interview around 5:45 eastern tonite on 850 AM WKNR with regards to this.
+ He said the offense had been "confused" in the huddle for the last year and a half - all of Carthon's tenure. A lot of guys were not comfortable.
+ He raved about Jeff Davidson, who will replace Carthon. Andruzzi has worked with Davidson for the past 6 years, as they both came over to the Browns along with Crennel. He said Davidson was one of the he signed with the Browns. He says Davison has a lot of respect, is very smart, and was long overdue to get this opportunity. Andruzzi noted that it was easy to "get on the same page" with Davidson, which I took more to mean that Carthon wasn't good at that. Andruzzi said to expect the same base offense, but "little changes" ... and I think Andruzzi believes the play-calling will be much better.
+ He said the offense had been "confused" in the huddle for the last year and a half - all of Carthon's tenure. A lot of guys were not comfortable.
+ He raved about Jeff Davidson, who will replace Carthon. Andruzzi has worked with Davidson for the past 6 years, as they both came over to the Browns along with Crennel. He said Davidson was one of the he signed with the Browns. He says Davison has a lot of respect, is very smart, and was long overdue to get this opportunity. Andruzzi noted that it was easy to "get on the same page" with Davidson, which I took more to mean that Carthon wasn't good at that. Andruzzi said to expect the same base offense, but "little changes" ... and I think Andruzzi believes the play-calling will be much better.
Irish
Footballguy
You trying to give BGP a heart attack. And Cowher is already home.Im just praying the Steelers let Cowher go. Nothing would mean more to the Browns fans then to see our favorite son come home.
No offense to Romeo as I do think he has done a solid job in lieu of the parts he has to work with.
I just wish they would either do horrible and get the high draft pick or make the playoffs. Cause these 6-10, 7-9 seasons are such a tease.
I agree... giving a coach 15-16 months is too long. They need to get things turned around in 2-3 weeks or move on to the next guy.
Cleveland has the worst talent in the NFL and have for several years. You could bring back Vince Lombardi and he'd be 1-5. Just cracks me up that people think changing coordinators is going to change the fact that Cleveland has the worst o-line in football, the worst receiving corp in football, the worst starting RB in football and one of the bottom 5 QBs in the league.
Sure, all they need is a coach to get excited on the sidelines and that ought to do the trick. Forget for a minute that Kellen Winslow is probably the only player on the team that would start for another NFL franchise. Talent isn't that important.
Cleveland has the worst talent in the NFL and have for several years. You could bring back Vince Lombardi and he'd be 1-5. Just cracks me up that people think changing coordinators is going to change the fact that Cleveland has the worst o-line in football, the worst receiving corp in football, the worst starting RB in football and one of the bottom 5 QBs in the league.
Sure, all they need is a coach to get excited on the sidelines and that ought to do the trick. Forget for a minute that Kellen Winslow is probably the only player on the team that would start for another NFL franchise. Talent isn't that important.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Braylon Edwards and JJ down?I agree... giving a coach 15-16 months is too long. They need to get things turned around in 2-3 weeks or move on to the next guy.
Cleveland has the worst talent in the NFL and have for several years. You could bring back Vince Lombardi and he'd be 1-5. Just cracks me up that people think changing coordinators is going to change the fact that Cleveland has the worst o-line in football, the worst receiving corp in football, the worst starting RB in football and one of the bottom 5 QBs in the league.
Sure, all they need is a coach to get excited on the sidelines and that ought to do the trick. Forget for a minute that Kellen Winslow is probably the only player on the team that would start for another NFL franchise. Talent isn't that important.
I think you misunderstand where he comes from in the school of talking to the press IE Parcells and BB. He's not crafty in his speech like them but he's giving you the same nothing they do by saying standard answers. For example-right now BP could say "We're gonna start the QB that gives us the best chance to win, this sunday" and...that's telling us nothing. Awaiting to hear something, that's annoying but in the same right, you don't coach thru the press. From what I understand, the players really respect +appreciate that.
The little I've seen of Mangini, I'd say he's a bit like BB and BP but more like Romeo. He's not as crafty but you can see the same vanilla statements.
Re-the Browns
You got your first 1000 yard back in a llllllong time last year. He weeded out alot of dead weight and (esp for the 3-4) had a shell of a team. Now you've got young talent, some awesome talent in Braylon and Winslow, but those guys are gonna make mistakes. Romeo can't give them experience. You lost last week and how did those two do? The RBs he inheritted are all gone aren't they? That's some high picks wasted, so don't pretend the Browns spent those picks on OL or Def or somesuch and all he's gotta do is plug in a RB. They've got missing pieces. They improved this offseason IMO and if Reuben was healthier it'd be even more obvious. For me though, some series', it looks like that's the best passing attack the Browns have had since Kosar. McGinest is no youngster. He's there to teach and lead by example. I think Romeo's shown a clear cut method to his moves and deserves much respect.
Butch couldn't evaluate NFL talent. Coach cuts em' not the GM. Geesh I can't think of anyone outside of a couple like Northcutt that are even still with the team from Butch's days and what was that 2 years ago? Romeo got a team a shade better than an expansion team, at least on offense. He deserves time IMO
Josh the FunkDOC
Footballguy
Jamal Lewis says hi.
coolnerd
Footballguy
Oh, yeah Ron Dayne is no longer starting
Borat
Footballguy
I know teams can turn it around quickly in today's NFL, but your expectations are a little crazy, in my opinion. You admit that RC had nothing to work with in 2005, but you still expect them to contend for the playoffs in 2007? Giving the guy only two offseasons to turn a garbage team into a playoff team is asking an awful lot. When you consider the injuries he's had to deal with, I think saying that he's "behind the curve" is a little harsh.
