bigbottom
Footballguy
I don’t think I’ve taken a firm stand on the issue. I do agree that the restaurant owners have the right to refuse service in this instance. I also think they are ridiculous.
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Brutal Fight Breaks Out At New York Restaurant Over Vaccination Proof (9/18/21 3:22 PST) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GordonGekko
- Start date
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Nope. That too. They put the health of their child at risk. The owner didnt do that.
the moops
Footballguy
They didn't have the kid with them. Unless you are arguing that they should never leave their house because that also would put their kid's health at risk
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Let's talk about the "rules"
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 says you cannot discriminate based on religion.
The larger overall issue is the order set out by Mayor Bill de Blasio offers no exemption for those who choose not to get vaccinated for religious reasons.
You can decide for yourself if you view this situation as "bullying" or "not bullying" but that doesn't change the reality that this is a now a complex legal issue.
There's a difference between "not going where you aren't wanted" which implies a choice in the matter and actually being disbarred from going inside based on an order that has a questionable overall legal basis.
What you aren't discussing is if de Blasio's "rules" are even legal or not. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is established law. As this issue goes up the chain of the court system in place, the concern will be for how something like this spills out. If you can disbar people for what amounts to their religious status, where else in our society can you start to disbar people for their choice of religion? Because there are plenty of people in America who despise Jews.
How many people here in these forums are Jewish. I've been here for years and while I don't respond to each and every instance where people talk about their personal religion, it's not some tiny minority of participants here. Do any of you think Ilhan Omar is going to welcome you into her Blue stronghold in Minnesota. if she thinks she can get all those small business owners who support her to disbar Jews from entering those establishments.
Do I think, as a matter of personal preference, that people should just use effective consumerism here? Yes, in most cases I do. The most effective thing you can do is to demonetize those who oppose you. When Adam Harstaad started bombing my personal inbox here because I said to someone else ( not even involving Harstaad at all) that the Denver Broncos were not producing quality draft classes to help their team win, the most effective thing I could have done to stop the behavior would be to bleed out a full thousand subscribers. I could have done that in 90 days easily. But I don't seek to punish everyone else for the actions of one person. I'm not here to gut other people's ability to earn a living because one person can't control themselves.
de Blasio's order puts these businesses in a lose/lose position. The pandemic, lockdowns, spiked costs in essential goods and services and the looting/rioting in 2020 have hit many small businesses, esp restaurants, very badly. So creating a situation where you could lose up to half your previous customer base, well the ones willing to even walk into a public restaurant anymore, starts to impact people's jobs and livelihoods and ability to feed their kids. The flip side is the desire for public safety. If the businesses comply, they will lose masses of customers and likely employees they can't afford to lose. If they don't comply, de Blasio has already shown a heavy hand in fining and shutting down these businesses.
You've robbed all larger context out of this discussion.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
SATIRE: New York Restaurant Adds Voting Booth So They Can Allow People In Without ID
September 21st, 2021 - BabylonBee.com
https://babylonbee.com/news/new-york-restaurant-adds-voting-booth-so-they-can-allow-in-people-without-id
(Owner Mikey DeCarlo stated) “A(n official) guy from [Mayor Bill] de Blasio’s office came by (the restaurant) and said he was going to shut us down (for violating the Mayor's vaccine mandate), except for the voting booth part.... which he said he would defend to the death."
******
You can't have Party that cries foul and racism and suppression if someone wants to see their ID to vote, then decides you need to show an ID to buy food to support a small business that is close to going under based on the lockdowns and indifference to looting and rioting and cost spikes based on the inflation and insane public policy created by said very same Party.
If you can't pick a side, then no one will ever believe anything you ever say.
the moops
Footballguy
One of my best friends is a jew who lives in Omar's district. He campaigned pretty hard for her and remains a big fan to this day.
Now what is this about barring jews from establishments?
The General
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Sure, can't see why not. If they want to refuse service, go right ahead.IvanKaramazov said:
Let's note, of course, that Texas is saying private establishments can't require masks but can require the lack of masks if they choose?
Shutout
Footballguy
That is right. It IS about society as a whole and some things, like personal freedom of choice are way up at the top of that list and thankfully some people take it seriously and aren't lemmings.thriftyrocker said:
The drain of public health to those who decided not to get the shot. I am sure it is subjective and case by case but I would wager that in day-to-day life, the people who aren't griping and stressing 24/7 over what other people are doing or not doing are probably much less drained than those who are because, in general, they are just trying to be left alone and living their life. Much like you said, they are just avoiding the things they don't want to be around as best they can.
Choosing not to get the vaccine/booster shot at this time (which does not mean they never would choose to) is no more audacious than those who decided to take it without historical data to show what the risks may or may not be...just like they weren't any more audacious to not take it when it became available and those who did that were under the impression that when they took it, everything would go back to normal. They were wrong. They weren't vaccinated (by definition meaning they received a substance in the body that makes them immune to the virus at hand), they weren't even able to remove their masks.
I have no problem and accept the decision of people on both sides of the decision but it is irresponsible to state as if one side is 100% right and the other is not only wrong, but also dangerous. Does it not strike you funny that this and ONLY this medical situation seems to be the only one we have ever known were there is one and only one answer (the vaccine). Absolutely NO WHERE ELSE in medical treatment is that the case. There are ALWAYS efforts to pursue multiple pathways towards health. Every viable treatment that shows even a hint of promise is always eagerly researched to find out if there is promise. But not here. Not with Covid. But you can't get that conversation here. Unless it's the echo chamber agreeing with the vaccine, posts are just met with quick quips or complete ignoring completely.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Lol. They went to a bar. Going to bar is not even in the same galaxy as " never leave the house"
These jerks have an immunocomprised kid and they are going to a bar???? And they are mad because the paper napkins with ear loops they wanted to wear werent allowed?
Omg this bar owner wouldnt let us pretend to care about our kid!!!
GordonGekko
Footballguy
VIDEO: "Cancel Carmines" Protest in UWS Following Viral Video Sep 20, 2021
Manhattan, New York - Hawk Newsome and BLM Protesters held a press conference and then confronted the restaurant following a viral video which was described as three black women from Texas assaulting a hostess over vaccine cards. BLM Is disputing that statement, Newsome said the women were accused of having fake vaccine cards and were later let in, at which time the hostess reportedly called them an N word, after which the fight began. At this time restaurant is refusing to release full video of the incident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxKwekx77-M
VIDEO: Attorney For Woman In Brawl At Carmine's Restaurant Claims Racial Discrimination Sep 20, 2021
There are new details surrounding the violent brawl outside of Carmine’s on the Upper West Side last week. The three Texas women arrested claim they were racially discriminated against.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN0UfQarCYI
VIDEO: 'The Five' reacts to BLM protesting restaurant after vaccine passport brawl Sep 21, 2021
'The Five' reacts to three women allegedly attacking a hostess over asking for proof of COVID vaccines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7_arLNg40o
****
Splitting hairs is lazy and cheap. But it requires no work from you. It's the favorite meal of the unwilling and the unskilled.
I pointed out in the original post where I cited a security expert who discussed the issue of "fake vaccine passports" and how easy it was to create them. Herein lies a secondary problem created by de Blasio. Not only does this situation operate on questionable legal grounds, but it has serious logistical/enforcement problems as well. Where is the enforcement mechanism in place by de Blasio to protect everyone involved - the business, the employees, the bystanders and the patrons in question?
Greg Gutfield brings up a point no one wants to discuss. What happens when a restaurant full of white people in NY look on as the only black people trying to enter are told to go outside?
GordonGekko
Footballguy
VIDEO: Ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups sue NY governor over COVID-19 curbs Oct 9, 2020
New York is imposing new restrictions to try to curb a surge in coronavirus infections in several "hot spots". The latest measures have sparked protests in Orthodox Jewish communities, who feel they are being unfairly targeted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA8-fQXg5mc
VIDEO: NYPD Break Up Crowded Street Of Orthodox Jewish Community Having Rabbi’s Funeral | NBC News NOW Apr 29, 2020
The New York Police Department broke up crowded streets of Williamsburg, NY where the Orthodox Jewish community broke social distancing rules to have a funeral for Rabbi Chaim Mertz amid the coronavirus pandemic. No arrests were made during the incident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BalgiQzck2Q
VIDEO: de Blasio blasted after tweets criticizing Jewish community over funeral crowd Apr 29, 2020
New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio oversaw the dispersal of a large, tightly packed Hasidic Jewish funeral and lashed out at the mourners who had gathered in defiance of social distancing rules intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus. "My message to the Jewish community, and all communities, is this simple: the time for warnings has passed," de Blasio tweeted Tuesday after police dispersed the funeral in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn. Critics accused de Blasio of singling out the Orthodox Jewish community for censure when others have violated social distancing rules as well. "This has to be a joke," City Councilman Chaim Deutsch, who represents a large Orthodox Jewish constituency, tweeted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONMMwJncqP4
********
So there's the issue of the tensions with Black America and historical distrust of the government and previous segregation.
Then you have this issue. Previous acrimony with New York's Jewish community over the pandemic and it's related conflicts. Then the hypocrisy of Cuomo and de Blasio basically giving BLM an open exemption to do whatever they wanted without social distancing when it fueled their Party narrative for the 2020 election cycle.
You'll have old school Jewish power brokers, in all areas of massive influence, who are old enough to remember the yellow stars they were forced to wear during the Holocaust. We are talking power blocks in Big Finance, Hollywood, Big Tech, Big Social Media, Big Education and Big Government.
Vaccine mandates as such without religious exemptions start to look like a aggressively broadly sweeping purity test meant to punish those perceived as too passive to exercise their voting rights in response. It shifts de Blasio's stance from a passive aggressive heat check to an overtly confrontational challenge of "Who's Your Daddy?"
What happens when the large number of Jewish Americans in NY who refuse to get vaccinated begin to believe that holding up their IPhone with a vaccine passport starts to look and feel like yellow star forced upon them to be stitched on the outside of their clothing?
de Blasio has millions of people under his watch in typically tight logistical compression. He's trying to curb his death numbers and infection numbers from COVID19 because he knows he's next. First, it was Cuomo, and now soon it's going to be him. He needs a political talking point to keep his power base. This is about his political survival, not actual public health. There's no other reason to challenge the existing law and to do so in manner that can't actually be enforced. A desperate man trying to save a dying political career who has no concern about the carnage inflicted to deny the reality of his own political doom.
The General
Footballguy
You don't need to post the video it's on here like 10 times already. As an aside you also don't need to present an array of YouTube vids, I can do my own research and ask questions back to you, as I know you in iLife and trust you will have a discussion in good faith.
What does any of what you said here have to do with producing an ID to eat? This isn't a thing.
Are you suggesting the white customers at Carmines didn't have to present an image of a vax card but this black person did ? That of course would be an issue. Did that happen here?
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
"Commies fighting fascists" is the free space on my 2021 bingo card.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
That I dont go along with the façade of wearing a mask while walking to your table or up to the bar, but then taking it off to eat and drink. I should just fall in line instead of pointing out that these people actually wanted to stay in a bar and then blamed somebody else for putting their child in danger.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
I agree wearing a mask to walk through a restaurant you're going to eat in is stupid. But if they were seeing friends in a bar and mostly talking over a long period of time, then it's practical to wear a mask. Clearly this couple was offended to the point they went to the press, which is a pretty Karen thing to do and probably only helped the bar owner. Maybe he can be the new "that NJ gym owner" or even "that Colorado waitress" for sticking it to them.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
He actually helped them.
ETA: I mean look at them. Those masks are completely worthless. Huge gaps on the sides. His silly beard doesnt even let the mask go under his chin. They look like they might even be inside out.
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GordonGekko
Footballguy
VIDEO: NYC to mandate Covid-19 vaccines for all private sector workers Dec 6, 2021 CNN
All private sector employers in New York City will now be required to implement a Covid-19 vaccine mandate by December 27, the city's mayor Bill de Blasio announced Monday during a press conference. This new move means everyone who works in the city will now be subject to a vaccine mandate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sp1aAlYUcY
VIDEO: 2,300 NYC firefighters call out sick as vaccine mandate begins Nov 1, 2021
After New York City’s Covid-19 vaccine mandate for municipal employees went into effect, 2,300 firefighters called out sick and around 9,000 city employees are on unpaid leave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eskGygmpcF8
VIDEO: N.Y.C. braces for shortages of cops and firefighters over vaccine mandate Oct 29, 2021 CNBC Television
NBC's Gabe Gutierrez joins The News with Shepard Smith to discuss protests against New York City's vaccine mandate and the impact it could have on basic services.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JTcmlzWCjY
*****
Looks like de Blasio just decided to put all his chips on the table. He knows doing this widespread vaccine mandate will end him politically in New York and maybe for good everywhere, the question becomes what did he get in trade from DNC HQ to do this.
Is New York prepared to have what happened at Carmines to explode and happen in countless numbers of other places?
What about civil order in New York? You already have attrition regarding police and firefighter and health care personnel just from the pandemic. Then losses from those weary from the unchecked looting and rioting. Then losses from Defund The Police. Then losses from having the entire country be told that all cops are white supremacists who can't wait to start executing minorities, particularly black Americans. And now there's this mandate. On top of bail "reform" that lets hardened career criminals back onto the street right after committing heinous crimes against innocent civilians.
Big Blue Cities and their leadership have left their constituents out like prey to be hunted. And, of course, it's a good time to mention that New York has some of the strictest gun laws in the entire country.
Max Power
Footballguy
I think the new mandates are destined to fail. No one is overly excited about it and the government is using it's own people as the enforcement measure under the threat of punishment. That isn't a place I'd ever want to live. If New Yorkers can stomach it, good on them.GordonGekko said:
Still a pretty racist policy as only 30% of young african americans in NYC have a single dose of the vaccine.
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Insein
Footballguy
I see this mandate going one of two ways.
1)Most businesses comply which means the NY economy will slowly collapse as proof of vaccine will be a hassle most people won't want to deal with. So they'll move to NJ, CT or just the suburbs to avoid it.
2) Most businesses will ignore it. The people have gone along as far as they're willing to go. They can't take another business year of lockdowns so they will dare the city government to enforce their policy and see what happens. I don't think most of the NYPD will want to go into these neighborhoods and tell people to close up their business again.
Will be interesting to see how it goes.
1)Most businesses comply which means the NY economy will slowly collapse as proof of vaccine will be a hassle most people won't want to deal with. So they'll move to NJ, CT or just the suburbs to avoid it.
2) Most businesses will ignore it. The people have gone along as far as they're willing to go. They can't take another business year of lockdowns so they will dare the city government to enforce their policy and see what happens. I don't think most of the NYPD will want to go into these neighborhoods and tell people to close up their business again.
Will be interesting to see how it goes.
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Max Power
Footballguy
I'm right there with you on the potential outcomes. Eventually this will blow up or fade away. I don't think we'll see a unified front on enforcement, so it will really be up to NYC leadership on how much of a heavy hand they want to rule with. I think the people are over it.
The sick thing about these new mandates is DeBlasio's term ends on Dec 31. I dont know why he would bother doing this unless hes on some crazy power trip (which he is). That being said, I wonder if Eric Adams will overturn some of these (I doubt it). I hate this city I live in now and my wife and I have discussed relocating (as have thousands of NYers in the last 2 years). The worst mayor in the entire country has ruined what was once a great city.
Living in NY, its been a mix so far. A lot of restaurants are not complying and risking fines. I haven't gone out to eat since the mandate went into effect except to restaurants that aren't checking. And Im fully vaxxed and boosted.
Also, as far as enforcement I dont think its NYPD. More like city health inspectors. First the restaurants get warnings and then fines.
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There has been already a mass exodus out of NY after last year. There will continue to be so this year although I dont know if moving to NJ is the solution as there were some rumors about Gov Murphy also enforcing mandates to enter restaurants. My wife and I have been having the discussion but I agree its not the easiest thing to do with children in school/sports, etc. If we were alone we wouldve been outta here last year.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
DeBlasio is the worst mayor NYC may have ever had that I can recall.
Adams already showed his hand, he's not enforcing this.
I'm not ready to count out NYC. Maybe that's easy for me to say in Suffolk County. I grew up in the city and I'm disturbed at how bad DeBlasio was, and somehow he got re-elected as well. They should have primaried him hard.
I do think Adams was the best choice out of the candidates to get things right again. Wiley, Yang and that ilk are ideologues. Garcia seemed like she might be more brass tacks, but ultimately a former police captain and Brooklyn borough president seems like a good choice for the times. Time to clean it up.
So far everything Adams has said has been awesome. Im hoping hes what this city needs. I voted for that dummy Sliwa only because I was against the mandates. if it wasnt for that I wouldve voted Adams. I hope he roles back some of this nonsense.
Do you have any links to Adams not enforcing this?
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Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Just what's been pretty widely reported. He had a chance to say he backs it, and declines to do so:
Eric Adams, New York’s mayor-elect, does not commit to the new vaccine mandate for private employers
I'm old enough to remember Curtis Sliwa and the Guardian Angels from back in the day. At least he's a true New Yorker, from the city, knows the city. He's an icon. I probably would have voted for Adams, but I'd vote for Sliwa over those other goofballs.
The mayor of NYC isn't a performative position like the House of Representatives. NYC needs people who get crap done, not preach about this or that.
King County has this mandate. I've been asked for proof of vaccination exactly once in the 6 weeks it's been implemented. It was right at the beginning and I don't think the waiter knew what was going on, we've been back to the same bar and restaurant twice since and they weren't asking.
The mandate was for indoors with 12 or more people (500+ outdoors). It extends to all indoors this week. Alternately you can provide a negative test taken within 72 hours.
Especially with Omicron the vaccine has been shown to be pretty worthless in keeping vaccinated people from catching and spreading. It's just a push to punish the unvaccinated. It doesn't slow the spread.
The mandate was for indoors with 12 or more people (500+ outdoors). It extends to all indoors this week. Alternately you can provide a negative test taken within 72 hours.
Especially with Omicron the vaccine has been shown to be pretty worthless in keeping vaccinated people from catching and spreading. It's just a push to punish the unvaccinated. It doesn't slow the spread.
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The General
Footballguy
Weird. I am asked pretty much every place I go if I'm eating/drinking inside including sports and one concert I went to. Think this started in the summer.
Max Power
Footballguy
Yeah, whooda thunk? First virtue signaling with mask wearing and then punishing the unvaccinated.
Max Power
Footballguy
It's pretty clear from my post that I am vaccinated. 
I'm not talking about large gatherings, I'm sure they do all the games.
Zero checking at all the bars and restaurants I've been to minus the one time. That started in King County Oct 25th.
Funny because some of our un-vaxxed friends kept saying they can't go to certain restaurants and we laugh and tell them that no one checks. Come on it the water is fine!
ETA: The same order linked above is amended to include small bars and restaurants (less than 12 seats) starting December 6th.
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Max Power
Footballguy
The NYC mandate impacts POCs more than white folk.Really? You're going there?(rolly smily is for Tony)
Ok you win. The mandate is targeted specifically to punish POC. And it appears Tony is having difficulties navigating it...The NYC mandate impacts POCs more than white folk.
The General
Footballguy
Must be an area thing within King County I guess. Every place iI have been to asks for this if eating or drinking inside. Lost track of time but feels like it has been going on longer than Oct 25 TBH.
Max Power
Footballguy
I don't win. Democratic logic winsOk you win. The mandate is targeted specifically to punish POC. And it appears Tony is having difficulties navigating it...
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