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Can this years Steeler defense (2 Viewers)

Copeman

Footballguy
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"What goes into making a great football defense?

The numbers 1-1-1 for starters. Those are the across-the-board rankings of the Steelers' defense today. The team ranks No. 1 in the NFL against the run, No. 1 against the pass and No. 1 in fewest total yards.

No team has finished that way since the great 1991 Philadelphia Eagles defense of Reggie White, Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons, Seth Joyner et. al.

Some argue for that as the greatest defense ever and compare it to those of the 1976 Steelers, the 1985 Chicago Bears and the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Only 10 games into this season, the Steelers don't want to be compared to any of the great defenses -- yet."

What say you?

 
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Some argue for that as the greatest defense ever and compare it to those of the 1976 Steelers, the 1985 Chicago Bears and the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Only 10 games into this season, the Steelers don't want to be compared to any of the great defenses -- yet."

What say you?
YETIf it carries them to a Super Bowl win now we're talking.

It don't mean a thing if you ain't got a ring.

 
Some argue for that as the greatest defense ever and compare it to those of the 1976 Steelers, the 1985 Chicago Bears and the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Only 10 games into this season, the Steelers don't want to be compared to any of the great defenses -- yet."

What say you?
YETIf it carries them to a Super Bowl win now we're talking.

It don't mean a thing if you ain't got a ring.
:thumbup: :D :goodposting: Too much football yet to be played. There is no point making any comparisons until after the season.

 
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball.

That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.

 
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball. That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
 
Sigmund Bloom said:
DawgPoundNJ said:
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball. That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.
 
What if they make it to the Superbowl and lose 3-0? Which is possible with their pathetic offense.

 
Sigmund Bloom said:
Copeman said:
Some argue for that as the greatest defense ever and compare it to those of the 1976 Steelers, the 1985 Chicago Bears and the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Only 10 games into this season, the Steelers don't want to be compared to any of the great defenses -- yet."

What say you?
YETIf it carries them to a Super Bowl win now we're talking.

It don't mean a thing if you ain't got a ring.
Word. They are playing well, and they are a great D, but amongst the greatest ever, it really comes down to finishing.
 
Sigmund Bloom said:
DawgPoundNJ said:
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball.

That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.
no
 
DawgPoundNJ said:
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball.
Meh. It is not the surface, at least not this year. Last season there were 5 games played in heavy rain. So far this season the playing field has been pretty good, certainly nothing you could blame a lack of scoring on.
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).

 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
Agreed. However the 1976 Steelers belongs in ANY discussion about the best defense ever.
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
Agreed. However the 1976 Steelers belongs in ANY discussion about the best defense ever.
Certainly there are plenty of top defenses. I only listed a few that I could remember with low ppg totals. The point was even ranking first in defense in several categories may not make them or anyone else an all-time best defense. Certainly they are one of the best in the game today, but IMP there have been others that have given up fewer points (which is pretty much the common denominator in football).
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
Agreed. However the 1976 Steelers belongs in ANY discussion about the best defense ever.
Certainly there are plenty of top defenses. I only listed a few that I could remember with low ppg totals. The point was even ranking first in defense in several categories may not make them or anyone else an all-time best defense. Certainly they are one of the best in the game today, but IMP there have been others that have given up fewer points (which is pretty much the common denominator in football).
Unless we can differentiate how many points came courtesy of special teams and offensive TOs it's simply to hard to grade defenses on points allowed IMO. Especially when you start going into different eras. One teams offense and ST could have been responsible 100 of those points over the course of the season while another could have been responsible for only 10. It all ends up in the same bucket. Only yards given up by the defense get counted against the defense however. That's why most people rank them by yds.
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
OK, I'll play. The first paragraph here will be my personal view, but beyond that, we'll go straight to numbers and nothing but.Here's the thing. The Steelers' D ppg allowed has also been skewed this year a bit by bad calls, bad bounces, and the offense turning the ball over non-stop, giving other teams a short field. Now, the first two you can discard as being something that befalls every defense, but watching every snap as I do, I can tell you that it has made more of an impact on this year's defense as any Steelers D I can remember. The bottom line is that the offense and special teams are doing them no favors. Not only is the offense turnign the ball over too much, the punting game has been putrid since Sepulveda got hurt. berger was OK, but Ernster is awful, and I swear to you, at least 3 or 4 punters playing against Pitt this year have averaged about 55 yards a punt. :thumbdown: It seriously seems everyone has a career day against them. I don't know where to find this stat, but I know you're a stat guy, if you can get the avg gross yardage of Pittsburgh's punt vs. that of their opponents, I'd actually probably bet even money that they're dead last in the NFl in differential. If not, they're close.

The final stat does have a big effect, though. The Steelers have allowed a defensive TD and 2 safeties this year. Those aren't on the defense, and the Titans offense has not allowed a point the other way all year. Right there, that's 11 points the Steelers D is not responsible for, which drops their true ppg against to 13.9. Also, the Steelers have 4 more turnovers than Tennessee this year. That accounts for a good chunk (if not all) of that .8 ppg difference. Pittsburgh has actually allowed fewer TDs (13 to 15) and scoring opportunities (30 to 31 TDs and attempted FGs) than Tennessee. A big difference in the ppg allowed is that opposing kickers have hit 16/17 FGA against PIT and only 9/16 against Tennessee. That right there is a difference of 1.8 ppg.

Now, the one stat defensively which is the most bullet-proof in terms of showing the true stinginess of a defense is yards allowed per play. That takes everything else out of the equation as well as you possibly can.. starting field position, points allowed by the offense/special teams, # of snaps taken by opponents, etc.. etc.. It's not perfect, but it's as good as you can get.

The Steelers are currently allowing 3.83 yards per snap, which is the lowest # in the NFL since 1979. Better than the 2000 Ravens, better than the '85 Bears, better than this year's Titans.

So, for that alone, I'd say they're in the conversation of best defenses in the past 30 years. I'd still probably rank them a notch below the '85 Bears or 2000 Ravens, but they're close. The rest of the season will tell the tale. I'd take them over the Titans this year, though.. and that's with 2 of their top 3 corners out the past few weeks.

 
Unless we can differentiate how many points came courtesy of special teams and offensive TOs it's simply to hard to grade defenses on points allowed IMO. Especially when you start going into different eras. One teams offense and ST could have been responsible 100 of those points over the course of the season while another could have been responsible for only 10. It all ends up in the same bucket. Only yards given up by the defense get counted against the defense however. That's why most people rank them by yds.
Very true but yards allowed could also be a product of field position (which incorporates special teams and offense). I'm not saying this is the case with any specific team but a defense can only allow the yards an opposing team is away from scoring. Allowing 300 yards in a game will probably produce a different result if the average starting field position is their own 40 compared to their own 15.An extreme example: Josh Cribbs catches a punt at his own 15 and :Scenario a) makes the first guy miss and returns it to the steelers 15 before being pushed out of bounds. Cleveland offense easily scores a TD on the next couple plays.Scenario b) he gets tackled at his own 15. Cleveland struggles to gain 15 yards before punting.Both show Pitt allowed 15 yards but with very different results.
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
Agreed. However the 1976 Steelers belongs in ANY discussion about the best defense ever.
Certainly there are plenty of top defenses. I only listed a few that I could remember with low ppg totals. The point was even ranking first in defense in several categories may not make them or anyone else an all-time best defense. Certainly they are one of the best in the game today, but IMP there have been others that have given up fewer points (which is pretty much the common denominator in football).
Unless we can differentiate how many points came courtesy of special teams and offensive TOs it's simply to hard to grade defenses on points allowed IMO. Especially when you start going into different eras. One teams offense and ST could have been responsible 100 of those points over the course of the season while another could have been responsible for only 10. It all ends up in the same bucket. Only yards given up by the defense get counted against the defense however. That's why most people rank them by yds.
We can. Tennessee offense has allowed 0 points this year, Pittsburgh has allowed 11 points. So, it's really 13.1 to 13.9, or almost statistically negligible.. especially considering the Steelers have played a tougher schedule thus far.
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
Agreed. However the 1976 Steelers belongs in ANY discussion about the best defense ever.
Certainly there are plenty of top defenses. I only listed a few that I could remember with low ppg totals. The point was even ranking first in defense in several categories may not make them or anyone else an all-time best defense. Certainly they are one of the best in the game today, but IMP there have been others that have given up fewer points (which is pretty much the common denominator in football).
Unless we can differentiate how many points came courtesy of special teams and offensive TOs it's simply to hard to grade defenses on points allowed IMO. Especially when you start going into different eras. One teams offense and ST could have been responsible 100 of those points over the course of the season while another could have been responsible for only 10. It all ends up in the same bucket. Only yards given up by the defense get counted against the defense however. That's why most people rank them by yds.
We can. Tennessee offense has allowed 0 points this year, Pittsburgh has allowed 11 points. So, it's really 13.1 to 13.9, or almost statistically negligible.. especially considering the Steelers have played a tougher schedule thus far.
I'm also talking about FGs that were scored based on starting field position from ST and/or a TO. Is that factored in as well?
 
The top defenses in the NFL:

Rank Team PPG YPG

1. Steelers 15 238.1

2. Giants 17 265.8

3. Ravens 18 267.9

4. Redskins 18.2 276.4

5. Buccaneers 16 281.5

Where are the Titans?

 
The top defenses in the NFL: Rank Team PPG YPG 1. Steelers 15 238.1 2. Giants 17 265.8 3. Ravens 18 267.9 4. Redskins 18.2 276.4 5. Buccaneers 16 281.5 Where are the Titans?
You also may need to see the win% of their opponents to validate these rankings.
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
Agreed. However the 1976 Steelers belongs in ANY discussion about the best defense ever.
Certainly there are plenty of top defenses. I only listed a few that I could remember with low ppg totals. The point was even ranking first in defense in several categories may not make them or anyone else an all-time best defense. Certainly they are one of the best in the game today, but IMP there have been others that have given up fewer points (which is pretty much the common denominator in football).
Unless we can differentiate how many points came courtesy of special teams and offensive TOs it's simply to hard to grade defenses on points allowed IMO. Especially when you start going into different eras. One teams offense and ST could have been responsible 100 of those points over the course of the season while another could have been responsible for only 10. It all ends up in the same bucket. Only yards given up by the defense get counted against the defense however. That's why most people rank them by yds.
We can. Tennessee offense has allowed 0 points this year, Pittsburgh has allowed 11 points. So, it's really 13.1 to 13.9, or almost statistically negligible.. especially considering the Steelers have played a tougher schedule thus far.
I'm also talking about FGs that were scored based on starting field position from ST and/or a TO. Is that factored in as well?
No, that's why I think yards per snap allowed is probably the most accurate statistical indicator of how a defense is playing.
 
I thought it would be interesting to look at the Top Defense in terms of % of total possible yards allowed by defense only. Basically I took a defenses yards allowed on defense and divided that by the # of drives against X (100- Avg Starting Field Position Against):

Code:
Team	Total TO go	Yards Al	% AllowedPIT	7106.34	2116.50	0.29783264BAL	7240.98	2330.70	0.321876321MIN	7628.91	2498.28	0.327475354TB	 7490.16	2500.84	0.333883388TEN	7684.50	2571.31	0.334609929NYG	6955.20	2342.40	0.336783989PHI	7784.70	2662.00	0.341952805CAR	7280.76	2507.16	0.344354161CHI	8028.54	2865.33	0.356893034WAS	6869.45	2465.25	0.358871525
 
I would say no. They are really, really good, but watching them, I do not see an all-time great defense. Plus, they have had too many letdowns at the end of games:

-Allowing game-losing TDs to the Colts and Giants in the final minutes (regardless of whether their opponent got the ball because of a punt return or a turnover, they still allowed a TD drive)

-Allowing an offense led by Joe Flacco to drive the field on them late to tie it up in a game the Steelers eventually won in OT

-Allowing the Chargers to drive the field for a FG last week in the 4th quarter, although the Steelers offense then went down and got the win back

Okay, these are only a few instances, but most of the time, all-time great defenses do not have this many 4th quarter lapses. They are really, really good, but not an all-time great by any means.

 
Subjectively, I always thought that Ravens defense was the best I've ever seen. I am very impressed by this defense, but it doesn't have that same feel of domination, that you simply can't move the ball against them that the Raven team did. In last years thread when we were discussing the greatest teams of all time (in comparison to last years Patriots, then undefeated), I wrote that while I thought the 89 49ers were the best team ever, and there were a number of teams ahead of the Ravens, (including last years Patriots) I would take the Ravens in a single game matchup against almost any other team.

The Steelers are very very good. But I'm not even sure they are best defense this year: that might be the Titans or the Giants.

 
They've had a few injuries to starters too, especially the secondary, but Hampton (best nose tackle in the league) missed a few games too.

Hard to crown them now, but they might deserve to be mentioned in the top 5-10 if they hold this pace the rest of the year.

 
Sigmund Bloom said:
DawgPoundNJ said:
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball. That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.
They do not practice on Heinz Field. They practice at their practice complex. Hey good news for you......one day the Browns will actually beat the Steelers. It is inevitable. We get tired of beating you guys up twice a year, ever year.
 
Sigmund Bloom said:
DawgPoundNJ said:
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball. That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.
They do not practice on Heinz Field. They practice at their practice complex. Hey good news for you......one day the Browns will actually beat the Steelers. It is inevitable. We get tired of beating you guys up twice a year, ever year.
What he meant to say was: "Until the Steelers have to deal with a practice facility that gives their players staph infections about every other week, they have an unfair home field advantage."
 
"Best ever" teams, players, coaches, etc have to stand out amongst their peers first. The 86 Giants and 85 Bears both did that even though they were also in the league at the same time.

OP mentions yards but not points.

The Titans started super strong. They have had some nowhere near dominant weeks in the past month. During that time though, their D has made some big plays.

The Ravens have looked as if no one could run against them and just super tough on D.

The Jets have had some WOW weeks.

IMO The Steelers have to distance themselves from other teams a bit more. There's nothing wrong with being an excellent 2008 D but not quite best ever. It's really a shame how few people know the Titans were the #1 D when the Ravens D was praised so much(2000?) due to their Supe. That Titans team is never ever ever even hinted at in best ever talks, yet the Ravens D is at times. I think, in time, you'll find neither the Titans nor Steelers of 2008 are rememberred as best ever's unless they finish super strong. Are they better than that former Titans team? those Ravens? Better than the 86 Giants or 85 Bears? Best ever brings some super super tough comparisons

 
Put this another way-

Thru the first 5 weeks(guesses at stats but I don't think they're far off at all) the Titans D had

Divide these by 5 to "paint picture": 18 sacks, 8 Forced Fumbles, 8 INTs, 2 TDs, gave up 11 points per game

Only allowed 1 of 100 yard WR, 100 yard RB, 300 yard passers in Steve Slaton who they completely shut down in the 2nd half that week.

Bulluck, Finnegan, and Haynesworth were players of the week in some capacity. According to one reporter, Finnegan missed it another week by 2 votes. 3 of 5, almost 4 of 5.

Half of this partial season, that was some phenomenal D. The Steelers weren't THAT great. The Titans haven't been since. Above is absolutely "best ever" stats if it could be continued for 16 games, which it wasn't.

 
Was the '77 Falcons defense that good? I have never heard them mentioned in this type of discussion. Is that just because they were a great defense with an absolutely horrible offense???

 
maxwjom0 said:
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball. That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.
They do not practice on Heinz Field. They practice at their practice complex. Hey good news for you......one day the Browns will actually beat the Steelers. It is inevitable. We get tired of beating you guys up twice a year, ever year.
I'm aware. What they do during the mornings on Sunday and before the games qualify as practice though. Nice try.Yeah, you own us. How can you not when every year you have, like, the greatest defense ever? Thanks to Copeman for starting this year's bestest ever thread.
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
Agreed. However the 1976 Steelers belongs in ANY discussion about the best defense ever.
Certainly there are plenty of top defenses. I only listed a few that I could remember with low ppg totals. The point was even ranking first in defense in several categories may not make them or anyone else an all-time best defense. Certainly they are one of the best in the game today, but IMP there have been others that have given up fewer points (which is pretty much the common denominator in football).
Unless we can differentiate how many points came courtesy of special teams and offensive TOs it's simply to hard to grade defenses on points allowed IMO. Especially when you start going into different eras. One teams offense and ST could have been responsible 100 of those points over the course of the season while another could have been responsible for only 10. It all ends up in the same bucket. Only yards given up by the defense get counted against the defense however. That's why most people rank them by yds.
We can. Tennessee offense has allowed 0 points this year, Pittsburgh has allowed 11 points. So, it's really 13.1 to 13.9, or almost statistically negligible.. especially considering the Steelers have played a tougher schedule thus far.
I'm also talking about FGs that were scored based on starting field position from ST and/or a TO. Is that factored in as well?
No, that's why I think yards per snap allowed is probably the most accurate statistical indicator of how a defense is playing.
Yards per snap allowed is of course yards per play allowed; and yards per play allowed is obviously the flip side of yards per play.Yards per play is a silly and misleading statistic. It's subject to Simpson's Paradox and you don't want to use it for anything other than trivia, IMO.
 
I thought it would be interesting to look at the Top Defense in terms of % of total possible yards allowed by defense only. Basically I took a defenses yards allowed on defense and divided that by the # of drives against X (100- Avg Starting Field Position Against):

Code:
Team	Total TO go	Yards Al	% AllowedPIT	7106.34	2116.50	0.29783264BAL	7240.98	2330.70	0.321876321MIN	7628.91	2498.28	0.327475354TB	 7490.16	2500.84	0.333883388TEN	7684.50	2571.31	0.334609929NYG	6955.20	2342.40	0.336783989PHI	7784.70	2662.00	0.341952805CAR	7280.76	2507.16	0.344354161CHI	8028.54	2865.33	0.356893034WAS	6869.45	2465.25	0.358871525
Very interesting. Where did you get these numbers?
 
Subjectively, I always thought that Ravens defense was the best I've ever seen. I am very impressed by this defense, but it doesn't have that same feel of domination, that you simply can't move the ball against them that the Raven team did. In last years thread when we were discussing the greatest teams of all time (in comparison to last years Patriots, then undefeated), I wrote that while I thought the 89 49ers were the best team ever, and there were a number of teams ahead of the Ravens, (including last years Patriots) I would take the Ravens in a single game matchup against almost any other team.The Steelers are very very good. But I'm not even sure they are best defense this year: that might be the Titans or the Giants.
How old were you in 1989?
 
Was the '77 Falcons defense that good? I have never heard them mentioned in this type of discussion. Is that just because they were a great defense with an absolutely horrible offense???
For some reason I'm having a hard time finding anything on here or the PFR blog, but yes, the '77 Falcons D was excellent. They were nicknamed the Gritz Blitz.Another team that had an incredible defense but understandably has been forgotten about was the '68 Colts. After 16 games they were 15-1 with just 168 points allowed (remember the Ravens allowed 165 points in 16 games).
 
Bri said:
"Best ever" teams, players, coaches, etc have to stand out amongst their peers first. The 86 Giants and 85 Bears both did that even though they were also in the league at the same time. OP mentions yards but not points. The Titans started super strong. They have had some nowhere near dominant weeks in the past month. During that time though, their D has made some big plays.The Ravens have looked as if no one could run against them and just super tough on D.The Jets have had some WOW weeks.IMO The Steelers have to distance themselves from other teams a bit more. There's nothing wrong with being an excellent 2008 D but not quite best ever. It's really a shame how few people know the Titans were the #1 D when the Ravens D was praised so much(2000?) due to their Supe. That Titans team is never ever ever even hinted at in best ever talks, yet the Ravens D is at times. I think, in time, you'll find neither the Titans nor Steelers of 2008 are rememberred as best ever's unless they finish super strong. Are they better than that former Titans team? those Ravens? Better than the 86 Giants or 85 Bears? Best ever brings some super super tough comparisons
Agreed. It wasn't long ago that the '05 Bears were in this discussion. They rested their starters and allowed 34 points in week 17, but Chicago allowed just 168 points through 15 games. Then they got Steve Smith'ed in the playoffs, though.
 
The top defenses in the NFL: Rank Team PPG YPG 1. Steelers 15 238.1 2. Giants 17 265.8 3. Ravens 18 267.9 4. Redskins 18.2 276.4 5. Buccaneers 16 281.5 Where are the Titans?
Right under the Bucs if you base it on yardage at 281.8 YPG
 
The Stellers are allowing 15 ppg. The Titans are allowing 13.1. I would pick the Titans over the Steelers at this point. And IMO neither one would beat out defenses like the 00 Ravens (10.3 ppg), the mid-80s Bears (11.7 or so ppg), or the 77 Falcons (9.2 ppg).
Agreed. However the 1976 Steelers belongs in ANY discussion about the best defense ever.
Certainly there are plenty of top defenses. I only listed a few that I could remember with low ppg totals. The point was even ranking first in defense in several categories may not make them or anyone else an all-time best defense. Certainly they are one of the best in the game today, but IMP there have been others that have given up fewer points (which is pretty much the common denominator in football).
Unless we can differentiate how many points came courtesy of special teams and offensive TOs it's simply to hard to grade defenses on points allowed IMO. Especially when you start going into different eras. One teams offense and ST could have been responsible 100 of those points over the course of the season while another could have been responsible for only 10. It all ends up in the same bucket. Only yards given up by the defense get counted against the defense however. That's why most people rank them by yds.
We can. Tennessee offense has allowed 0 points this year, Pittsburgh has allowed 11 points. So, it's really 13.1 to 13.9, or almost statistically negligible.. especially considering the Steelers have played a tougher schedule thus far.
I'm also talking about FGs that were scored based on starting field position from ST and/or a TO. Is that factored in as well?
No, that's why I think yards per snap allowed is probably the most accurate statistical indicator of how a defense is playing.
Yards per snap allowed is of course yards per play allowed; and yards per play allowed is obviously the flip side of yards per play.Yards per play is a silly and misleading statistic. It's subject to Simpson's Paradox and you don't want to use it for anything other than trivia, IMO.
I don't really think it's misleading. Sure, it's subject to Simpson's Paradox as a subset, but coupled with the fact that they're #1 in pass, rush, and total defense (by a large margin), I don't think it applies in this case. I also see it as a pretty solid metric since the sample size is large enough as to all but eradicate any anomalies.
 
Some argue for that as the greatest defense ever and compare it to those of the 1976 Steelers, the 1985 Chicago Bears and the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Only 10 games into this season, the Steelers don't want to be compared to any of the great defenses -- yet."

What say you?
YETIf it carries them to a Super Bowl win now we're talking.

It don't mean a thing if you ain't got a ring.
BINGO
 
Was the '77 Falcons defense that good? I have never heard them mentioned in this type of discussion. Is that just because they were a great defense with an absolutely horrible offense???
For some reason I'm having a hard time finding anything on here or the PFR blog, but yes, the '77 Falcons D was excellent. They were nicknamed the Gritz Blitz.Another team that had an incredible defense but understandably has been forgotten about was the '68 Colts. After 16 games they were 15-1 with just 168 points allowed (remember the Ravens allowed 165 points in 16 games).
Part of the reason that Falcons team gets left off these discussions is they didn't win. They were only 7-7 and didn't even make the playoffs.The Rams that year were nearly as good, allowing 10.4 ppg. The Broncos were another top defense (10.6 ppg allowed) that year. Both the Rams were much better offensively than the Falcons and they went 10-4 and 12-2.With none of those 3 teams winning the Super Bowl (the Cowboys won), they all seem to have been forgotten about. As for the football climate, changes in the passing rules hadn't been invoked yet so passing totals were low (the early to mid 70s saw very low passing totals). In 1977, Drew Pearson led the league with 870 receiving yards. That certainly went a long way in teams allowing fewer points.
 
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Subjectively, I always thought that Ravens defense was the best I've ever seen. I am very impressed by this defense, but it doesn't have that same feel of domination, that you simply can't move the ball against them that the Raven team did. In last years thread when we were discussing the greatest teams of all time (in comparison to last years Patriots, then undefeated), I wrote that while I thought the 89 49ers were the best team ever, and there were a number of teams ahead of the Ravens, (including last years Patriots) I would take the Ravens in a single game matchup against almost any other team.The Steelers are very very good. But I'm not even sure they are best defense this year: that might be the Titans or the Giants.
:bag: Spot on you can't be the best ever if you are 2nd or 3rd in the current season.
 
I don't really think it's misleading. Sure, it's subject to Simpson's Paradox as a subset, but coupled with the fact that they're #1 in pass, rush, and total defense (by a large margin), I don't think it applies in this case. I also see it as a pretty solid metric since the sample size is large enough as to all but eradicate any anomalies.
The fact that the Steelers are 1st in pass and rush defense (if you measure those things correctly) would be the important thing. A statistic that's inherently flawed that turns out to be accurate in some cases (which, of course, it must) doesn't mean it's worth using.
 
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball.

That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.
:popcorn: :no: Clowns Fans ;)

 
Subjectively, I always thought that Ravens defense was the best I've ever seen. I am very impressed by this defense, but it doesn't have that same feel of domination, that you simply can't move the ball against them that the Raven team did. In last years thread when we were discussing the greatest teams of all time (in comparison to last years Patriots, then undefeated), I wrote that while I thought the 89 49ers were the best team ever, and there were a number of teams ahead of the Ravens, (including last years Patriots) I would take the Ravens in a single game matchup against almost any other team.The Steelers are very very good. But I'm not even sure they are best defense this year: that might be the Titans or the Giants.
How old were you in 1989?
24. And I didn't say the 49ers were the best defense ever, certainly not. But the best team ever, yes, IMO.
 
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball.

That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.
:eek: :wall: Clowns Fans :loco:
Have someone smart read you Post #34.
 
maxwjom0 said:
Until the Steelers do something about that slop that they play on, defensive stats and numbers coming out of there will just as much be a product of 8 games on a craptastic surface than talent on the defensive side of the ball.

That said, the Steelers D is good. Best ever or among them? Not even close.
That argument cuts both ways. Players like Harrison, Timmons, and Polamalu are held back by the surface as much as the offensive skill players.
True, but they play and practice on the surface. Home field advantage.
They do not practice on Heinz Field. They practice at their practice complex. Hey good news for you......one day the Browns will actually beat the Steelers. It is inevitable. We get tired of beating you guys up twice a year, ever year.
I'm aware. What they do during the mornings on Sunday and before the games qualify as practice though. Nice try.Yeah, you own us. How can you not when every year you have, like, the greatest defense ever? Thanks to Copeman for starting this year's bestest ever thread.
You are quite welcome, although I merely linked the topic to what someone else wrote.And with the greatest defense ever, wonder why other teams can beat the Steelers but the Browns always come up short? Way short. :angry:

 
Was the '77 Falcons defense that good? I have never heard them mentioned in this type of discussion. Is that just because they were a great defense with an absolutely horrible offense???
For some reason I'm having a hard time finding anything on here or the PFR blog, but yes, the '77 Falcons D was excellent. They were nicknamed the Gritz Blitz.Another team that had an incredible defense but understandably has been forgotten about was the '68 Colts. After 16 games they were 15-1 with just 168 points allowed (remember the Ravens allowed 165 points in 16 games).
Part of the reason that Falcons team gets left off these discussions is they didn't win. They were only 7-7 and didn't even make the playoffs.The Rams that year were nearly as good, allowing 10.4 ppg. The Broncos were another top defense (10.6 ppg allowed) that year. Both the Rams were much better offensively than the Falcons and they went 10-4 and 12-2.With none of those 3 teams winning the Super Bowl (the Cowboys won), they all seem to have been forgotten about. As for the football climate, changes in the passing rules hadn't been invoked yet so passing totals were low (the early to mid 70s saw very low passing totals). In 1977, Drew Pearson led the league with 870 receiving yards. That certainly went a long way in teams allowing fewer points.
1977 in the NFL was like 1968 in the MLB.I'm not enough of a historian to know if the rules changes in either or both cases were already being discussed or were a reaction to the defensive strength of those seasons, but in either case, the lowering of the mound and the opening of the passing game each had a major impact on the games. Of course, 1978 also saw the addition of two more regular season games for the NFL.Anyway, because of how strong defense was in 1977 (and really it makes sense in general), it may make sense to attempt to normalize the data in order to compare ppg from different eras or even from different seasons in the same era. It doesn't take a PhD in statistics to understand that a 10.0 ppg when the average points allowed per team is 18.0 ppg is not as (statistically) impressive as allowing 11.0 ppg when the average team allows 24.0 ppg (or any other example of the kind).As for overall defensive excellence, ppg doesn't tell all of the story either. Certainly turnovers and defensive scores should also be considered, as well as red zone performance.
 
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