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Can we annoint John Fox yet? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jkruppe
- Start date
Jimmy James
Footballguy
I think it's a little premature to laud him like that. Let him drive deep into the playoffs two years in a row before we certify him as a genius.I do think he is at minimum a very good coach, though.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
Even if he wins a Super Bowl this year, I'd want to see his team make the playoffs in back to back years before I throw around "genius". I want to see a lot before a throw that word around.
SSOG
Moderator
John Fox will probably NEVER be a "genius" or a "mastermind". There are plenty of GREAT coaches out there, but not all of those coaches are "geniuses". The reason that Shanahan and Belichick get the moniker is because they regularly OUTTHINK the other coach. They make very unconventional strategy decisions, they make very gutsy calls, they are not at all risk adverse, and they vary up their game plan and respective sets (offensive for Shanahan, defensive for Belichick) more than anyone else in the entire NFL. They are "mad scientist" football coaches, and as a result, are called "geniuses". Meanwhile, other guys (like **** Vermeil, Andy Reid, Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher, and Bill Parcells) are simply great coaches. They get their teams motivated and prepared week in and week out better than most any other coach in the league. They are GREAT coaches, but not "geniuses". This is the category in which John Fox will find himself if he continues at his current pace.To be labeled a genius or a mastermind, you have to successfully perform one of the following maneuvers (all of these have been done by Shanahan and/or Belichick at one point or another).1) Intentionally score points FOR THE OTHER TEAM in order to improve your team's chances of winning. (NE vs. Denver, 2003, "intentional safety game")2) Win the overtime coin toss... and elect to kick away. Get a quick 3-and-out, force a short punt, and then set up a 20 yard drive to kick the game-winning FG. (Den vs. Buff, 1998, long before anyone knew the name "Morninwheg").3) Bring back the wishbone, and run it as your primary offensive set with GREAT SUCCESS for one week before retiring it again. (Denver vs. KC, first meeting, 2003- the ridiculous Dante Hall kick return game).4) Open up a superbowl in a 2-5 (two down linemen, five linebacker) look.5) Use controversial goal-line packages. Put up a multi-TD game... by a linebacker (Vrabel) or reserve offensive lineman (Dwayne Carswell). Throw TDs to other who-dats like Cooper Carlisle and Tom Ashworth.6) Play players out of position for the heck of it. Use a wide receiver as a defensive back (Troy Brown) or a defensive back as a wide receiver (Champ Bailey). If your FBs are hurt, use your DE (Richard Seymour), or create a scheme that involves using 2-TE sets and then using motion to turn one into a fullback a few second before the snap (Jeb Putzier, Dwayne Carswell, Patrick Hape).7) Create a unit that performs so spectacularly that it constantly replaces missing pieces without missing a beat (Denver's rushing offense, New England's secondary).8) Go for it on 4th down. A lot more than any other coach would even dream about. Go for it on 4th-and-long when you're leading. Go for it on 4th-and-short when you're in easy FG range.These are the slabs, the foundations on which Shanahan and Belichick have built their "mastermind" and "genius" resumes... and they're just the tip of the iceberg. Shanny and Belichick have earned their monikers a hundred times over. John Fox is one heck of a football coach... but he's not a football "genius".
Jimmy James
Footballguy
You make an excellent point that I agree with totally.You have also described why I intensely dislike both coaches and really hope Nick Saban doesn't start pulling that showy crap. Outthinking your opponent is fine, but some of the garbage you spoke of has no place in this game (like going for it on 4th and long).
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Come on. the injuries that Carolina endured last year were devastating, and they still almost made the playoffs.Now no Foster,Davis, Jenkins, and probably Peppers in the biggest game of the season.
We'll see how they do.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I am not sure I would call Fox a genius either, but when talking about the best coaches in the NFL, he is definitely in the top 25%.
SSOG
Moderator
Belichick and Shanahan don't do anything to "show off" (well, except against the Raiders, whom Shanahan doesn't merely want to beat... he wants to HUMILIATE). They do what they think gives them the best chance of winning the football game. They think for themselves rather than blindly following conventional wisdom. If they think that going for it on 4th-and-long gives them the best chance of winning the game, then odds are it does (I mean, their records sort of speak for themselves... 5 of the past 8 SBs and all that).I doubt either coach has ever thought "Now let's really assert our dominance and go for it on 4th-and-6". Instead, I believe they think more like this: "If we punt here, and it's a touchback, we only gain 14 yards worth of field position. If we attempt the field goal, because of the wind, we only have a 30% chance of making it. If we go for it, we have a 35% chance of making it, and even if we fail, we still give the ball back deeper than we would if we kicked the fig and missed. If we make it, we can kill at least two more minutes of clock time, and since we're up by 4 points, that's worth drastically more than an extra field goal. And if we make it and somehow manage to score a TD, then this game becomes a two-possession game, which pretty much guarantees the victory. Therefore, going for it on 4th and 6 gives our team the best chance of winning... so we're going for it."
I disagree that it has no place in football, either. I think that doing what gives your team the best chance of winning ABSOLUTELY has a place in football.
That said, I think Belichick playing games with the injury report, and chasing off the Steelers trainers trying to help his injured players... I think THAT has no place in football. That's just petty and paranoid, and potentially detrimental to your players' wellbeing. More than that- lying on the injury report is against the rules.
FWIW I'm a big bronco fan and I think Fox is knocking at the door of Shanny and BB.He certainly is a great motivator and the kind of coach any team would be lucky to hire, he had the panthers 3RD STRING! playing for gold last year, that's hard to dispute. But he's not there yet.
WHY?
Lack of opportunity. He just hasn't had enough chances.
This will come.
This guy is gonna be around for years.
No way this guy goes unemployed for 5 minutes.
While I agree with SSOG's analysis, for the short term. And it's very right on.
You guys are arguing a timeline here that will see Fox holding a Lombardi trophy in the next few years.
I refuse to bet against this coach with any kind of decent talent on his squad and I suggest you do the same.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I was waiting to read that quote in this thread.
I do not care what you label Fox and I am sure that he cares less as well BUT #6 above is applicable to him. He has lined up Julius Peppers at WR. I believe Peppers has even scored a TD.So your accomplishing one of the above theory fits him if you want to be technical
I am a Panthers fan.GiantsRule
Footballguy
1. Jake Delhomme is the most underrated QB in the league. Efficient, clutch, and confident. He's hardly average and it's almost insulting to say he's "about above average".2. In four seasons, John Fox has:--(2002) Gone 7-9 entrusting "Mr. Holly Robinson" Rodney Peete as his starting QB for an entire season after the 1-15 debacle in 2001. He went through a pathetic carousel of starting running backs during that time including displaced Lamar Smith and unknown free agent Dee Brown.--(2003) Dominated the NFC South en route to an 11-5 record under newly minted starting QB, Delhomme. Also helped cultivate Steve Smith from primary punt returner and occassional slot receiver into a fine young wide receiver.--(2004) Overcame a ridiculous amount of injuries and a 1-7 start to a 7-8 record and a "win and you're in" opportunity in the playoffs, an accomplishment no other coach had come close to. Some bad decision-making and overconfidence blew that opportunity vs. Saints in the season finale.--(2005) Despite inconsistency at times and a heartbreaking loss on a questionable penalty (vs. Dallas) that ultimately cost them the division, finished 11-5 with a quality QB, the top WR in the game, and an incredibly inconsistent running game. Went on to keep playoff opponents, both on the road, scoreless through almost 6 consecutive quarters. And if they watched film of Washington vs. Seattle, they will be fully prepared to attack the Seahawks' weaknesses.Conclusion: Fox has quietly become one of the elite masterminds in the coaching game today, in the Top 5 at a minimum. And I'm STILL resentful that the Giants let him go, but the league has certainly benefited.
nygiants56
Footballguy
i agree for the most part..the bit about the injury report i totally disagree with you on.Joe Gibbs is notorious for being untruthful about injuires, so is Belichick and Shanahan , Parcells, and Jeff Fisher. I suppose we should tell coaches the can't speak on the headsets and hide their faces with the play cards so the opposition can't read their lips, like Shanny does,like Holmgren does, like 32 NFL head coaches do. I guess the NFL should MANDATE that the two SB teams have to let the Press in to watch their SB practices.. afterall, under the current system the coaches can and always do close the practices to the Press, and no cameras are allowed..in fact, didn't one SB head coach a few years ago accuse the other team of flying a helicopter overhead to monitor the practice? i would consider THAT petty and paranoid, wouldn't you??running up the score, going for it on 4th and long, faking punts/fg's , pooch kicks, drop kicks, hook and ladder, flea flickers, and even passing on kick returns ( Music City Miracle) are all good things..
Chop or cut blocks are NOT good things, despite being 'legal'..both Denver and Atlanta utilize this borderline cheating tactic, that has ended many a D-lineman's career prematurely...an erroneous or misleading injury report is nothing compared to chop blocks..
for my 2 cents worth on Fox being a genius, he is NOWHERE without Dan Henning, who is the best OC that no one has ever heard of.
Fox IS a genius for hiring Dan Henning..
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Wolfpacker
Footballguy
I'm just thankful every day that Jerry Richardson sent his son Mark down to Florida to hire Steve Spurrier as the newest head coach of the Panthers. We better win a Super Bowl before Jerry's gone, or it will never happen.
SSOG
Moderator
I know he played Peppers out of position (although I thought it was at TE), and I remember him drawing a PI call in the end zone. I wouldn't talk about the Carolina backfield as having maintained a high level of success despite constant churn because, A) there was little turnover on the OLine, and B) I don't think having the FOURTH LOWEST yards per carry in the entire NFL constitutes as "operating at a high level".Other than that, he's got a long way to go. Again, that's not a complete list, just a small sampling of all of the unorthadox strategies Belichick and Shanahan have employed. Fox is a great coach, but not at all unorthadox. I don't think he ever really "outthinks" his opponents, despite how often he outprepares them.
Shanahan isn't untruthful on the injury report. Belichick and Fisher definitely are (they're the worst offenders).
i agree for the most part..the bit about the injury report i totally disagree with you on.Joe Gibbs is notorious for being untruthful about injuires, so is Belichick and Shanahan , Parcells, and Jeff Fisher.
There's a difference. Hiding your face, closing your practices, and speaking on headsets are all allowed per NFL rules. Doing this doesn't break any NFL rules. Lying on the midweek injury reports *IS* against NFL rules. If the NFL takes the rule off the books, then that's fine, but until they do, all coaches should be forced to abide by it. What's the point of having a rule if you aren't going to enforce it?
I disagree with running up the score, but support anything that improves a team's chances of winning. Even more, I consider it a coach's DUTY to do everything they can *within the rules* to improve his team's chances of winning.
Chop blocks are NOT legal. They are penalized, and the offenders are fined, just like players who lead with their helmets or hit late and/or out of bounds. And guess what... Denver or Atlanta do not commit chop block penalties at a higher rate than any other team in the NFL. It's a MYTH that Denver and Atlanta chop block.What you're thinking of is CUT blocking. Cut blocking is legal. Cut blocking is not borderline cheap. What is your favorite team? Because your team cut blocks, too. ALL 32 FRANCHISES CUT BLOCK, especially on the backside of every single screen play, and most sweeps and tosses, too. The difference is that Kansas City and Pittsburgh might cut block 20% of the time, while Denver and Atlanta might do it 70% of the time. But they all do it. Which is fine, since it's legal. Don Shula used to say that if you took cut blocking out of football, you would take away offense entirely. Every single college and professional Offensive Lineman is TAUGHT how to cut block, much how they're taught how to pass block. A coach saying that Denver's linemen are dirty because they cut block is basically saying "Cut blocking is dirty... EXCEPT WHEN WE DO IT. I mean, it's clean as long as you do it less than 25% of the time, but after that, it's dirty. And hitting people late and out of bounds is fine, as long as you don't do it more than 5 times per game, so that other team needs to stop whining."
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shadyridr
Footballguy
Pats fan and I agree 100%Before this year I'd have ranked the current head coaches (by ability, not necessarily past performance):
1. Belichick
2. Shanahan
3. Parcells
4. Fisher
5. Cowher
6. Fox
Now I'd rank them:
1. Belichick
2. Shanahan
3. Fox
4. Cowher
5. Fisher
6 (or lower). Parcells
Wheelhouse
Footballguy
Superb Post!!
Let's not forget about Richard Huntley... 
Mr. Anonymous
Footballguy
I agree with everything above, regarding Fox being a "great coach" rather than a "genius."I think he would find it funny to have anyone say he's a genius.He's a great motivator, a great game plan preparer, a great delegator, a great "work with what you've got" coach.He is not unconventional at all. He is very much of a meat and potatoes guy. He's just one of the very best at out meat-and-potatoing the other coach.He's a class act and, as a Panthers fan, I would be very satisfied even if he didn't get quite the same results. The whole organization is a credit to Charlotte - even if some of the players aren't always (they are promptly gotten rid of, or rehabilitated).
Wolfpacker
Footballguy
No D.W.I.s or accusations of steroid use yet and part of a team going to the NFC Championship game, so I'd say pretty good so far.Yeah, by the way, thanks for Saeurbrun. How's Jason Baker been working out?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Four seasons, two of which were 7-9, with no better than an 11-5 finish to his credit = a solid start but in no way, shape or form in the company of "genius" or "mastermind." Why are we in such a rush to put labels on people that almost doom them to fall short? The Panthers look like they have a talented head coach that will get them in a winning position more often than not. Whether he's remembered as a great one will largely be determined by the quality of his personnel [and at least a half dozen more years].
Nihilist Pig
Footballguy
A winner much more often than a loser?A handful of playoff appearances, including a Super Bowl loss to a very good Patriot team?An ability to take a unit and make it exceptional, even with interchangable and some might say unexceptional parts?A willingness to spit in the eye of convention and think for himself when the game is on the line, whether he draws flack for it or not?Ladies and gentlemen...I give you Mike Martz, genius.
