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Carnell Williams v Steven Jackson v Ronnie Brown (1 Viewer)

Just trying to get some discussion going on these guys, as they appear to be the best of the young crop of RBs right now.

All three are former 1st round picks, and all three put up comparable numbers their first year as a starter.

Caddy is returning to relatively decent situation. Stable coaching staff and a friendly offensive system. His main negative is the competition for TDs and catches with Alstott/Pittman.

SJ has the running game all to himself, but his team is in flux with an all new coaching staff (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). He had some injury concerns going into the season, but all things considered, I'd say he took the pounding rather well.

Ronnie has potential competition from Ricky Williams with the drug test appeal still going. Miami seemed vastly improved from their 2004 season.

All three play for teams that should have respectable offenses in 2006. Miami could get off to a slow start with no depth behind Culpepper should be not be ready. Tampa wasn't a super offense last year, but they seemed capable of moving the ball and Simms has a year of starting experience under his belt. Gruden has been great for QBs in the past. St. Louis has the best skill position players and they can be a dominant offense, but the middle-right side of their line is ancient and RT Barron is just in his second year.

 

Shermanator

Footballguy
1. SJ. High octane offense. Dual threat as running and catching. Faulk aging more and more. The only fear is injury

2. RB. Better physical skills than Caddy. Team on the upswing. Strong second half last year. Ricky is a huge x-factor.

3. CW. Cant handle a huge work load. Too many carries for loss. Shares with other capable rb's. Borderline #1 IMO.

If Ricky Williams is NOT a dolphin this year for various reasons, Caddilac is a distant third on this list IMO.

 

ShadowMaster

Footballguy
TODAY, I rank these as follows.......

Sjax - Most productive of the bunch last year. Best offesive team of the bunch. Least competition for touches. Coaching change should HELP, as Martz was a little on the pass happy side.

Brown - I think the fish with CPep are better than the CSimms led Bucs. TODAY - Ricky is suspended. Even if over-turned, I expect a draft day trade for the Rasta.

Caddy - Great start, but showed quick some wear and tear with the work-load. Has a great backup in Pittman and one of the best short yardage backs in Alstott to vulture touches and TDs. Gruden likes to use alot of different RBs - just look at his old Oakland team stats.

 

coco the monkey

Footballguy
1. SJ. High octane offense. Dual threat as running and catching. Faulk aging more and more. The only fear is injury

2. RB. Better physical skills than Caddy. Team on the upswing. Strong second half last year. Ricky is a huge x-factor.

3. CW. Cant handle a huge work load. Too many carries for loss. Shares with other capable rb's. Borderline #1 IMO.

If Ricky Williams is NOT a dolphin this year for various reasons, Caddilac is a distant third on this list IMO.
That's how I see it as well.
 

nygiants56

Footballguy
TODAY, I rank these as follows.......

Sjax - Most productive of the bunch last year.  Best offesive team of the bunch.  Least competition for touches.  Coaching change should HELP, as Martz was a little on the pass happy side.

Brown - I think the fish with CPep are better than the CSimms led Bucs.  TODAY - Ricky is suspended.  Even if over-turned, I expect a draft day trade for the Rasta.

Caddy - Great start, but showed quick some wear and tear with the work-load.  Has a great backup in Pittman and one of the best short yardage backs in Alstott to vulture touches and TDs.  Gruden likes to use alot of different RBs - just look at his old Oakland team stats.
i don't know about that! Scott Linehan, HC of Rams, is a RBBC coach thru-and-thru...just my opinion, but I think S-Jax is WAY overrated for 2006...I think people are giving Linehan too much credit and not enough criticism from a fantasy standpoint, as being nothing more than a RBBC coach..just look at his NFL coaching past in Minny and Miami..I could be wrong, just a hunch that RBBC returns to St Louis..Caddy and Brown are coin flips I'd say, maybe Brown gets the slight edge if/when Ricky is suspended/traded.

just interested to know why Cedric Benson didn't make the list? injuries and a holdout in 2005 hurt his chances to start, I understand, but he should push aside the 'never-has-been' Thomas Jones by the end of training camp this year..Jones has never stayed healthy for an entire year, and the Bears don't pay Benson a fortune to sit and rot on the sidelines..they'll get him in as the featured back one way or another..

Not sure Frank Gore doesn't belong on the list either...Norv Turner spins gold with every RB he coaches..Barlow looks like he could be the odd man out..

your list will be great once the draft occurs, because teams like Carolina,Denver, NE, Houston, et al , will most likely be drafting RBs..

any RB Denver drafts has a chance to be a great one, as always, and Bush in Houston could be the best of the bunch..who knows!

maybe once the draft occurs, you can tie the guys like Brown,Caddy, Benson,Gore, SJax alongside guys like D.Williams,Bush,Maroney, White..

 
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coco the monkey

Footballguy
TODAY, I rank these as follows.......

Sjax - Most productive of the bunch last year.  Best offesive team of the bunch.  Least competition for touches.  Coaching change should HELP, as Martz was a little on the pass happy side.

Brown - I think the fish with CPep are better than the CSimms led Bucs.  TODAY - Ricky is suspended.  Even if over-turned, I expect a draft day trade for the Rasta.

Caddy - Great start, but showed quick some wear and tear with the work-load.  Has a great backup in Pittman and one of the best short yardage backs in Alstott to vulture touches and TDs.  Gruden likes to use alot of different RBs - just look at his old Oakland team stats.
i don't know about that! Scott Linehan, HC of Rams, is a RBBC coach thru-and-thru...just my opinion, but I think S-Jax is WAY overrated for 2006...I think people are giving Linehan too much credit and not enough criticism from a fantasy standpoint, as being nothing more than a RBBC coach..just look at his NFL coaching past in Minny and Miami..I could be wrong, just a hunch that RBBC returns to St Louis..Caddy and Brown are coin flips I'd say, maybe Brown gets the slight edge if/when Ricky is suspended/traded.

just interested to know why Cedric Benson didn't make the list? injuries and a holdout in 2005 hurt his chances to start, I understand, but he should push aside the 'never-has-been' Thomas Jones by the end of training camp this year..Jones has never stayed healthy for an entire year, and the Bears don't pay Benson a fortune to sit and rot on the sidelines..they'll get him in as the featured back one way or another..

Not sure Frank Gore doesn't belong on the list either...Norv Turner spins gold with every RB he coaches..Barlow looks like he could be the odd man out..

your list will be great once the draft occurs, because teams like Carolina,Denver, NE, Houston, et al , will most likely be drafting RBs..

any RB Denver drafts has a chance to be a great one, as always, and Bush in Houston could be the best of the bunch..who knows!

maybe once the draft occurs, you can tie the guys like Brown,Caddy, Benson,Gore, SJax alongside guys like D.Williams,Bush,Maroney, White..
I wouldn't say Linehan is a RBBC guru. Bennett got 250+ carries in 2002. Then the Vikings had nobody worth a full time gig in 2003 and 2004. When Moore and O.Smith were healthy they got 20+ carries on several occassions. Last year both Ricky and Brown were top backs so it's hard to sit one over the other. When Ricky was suspended, Brown got almost all the carries and at the end of the season when Brown got hurt, Ricky got nearly all the carries. Take a look inside the numbers for 2004 for instance. Onterrio Smith was the feature back before he got hurt. Two out of the three games to start the season, no other back got a single carry. Then he got hurt. Linehan switched the starting RB back and forth from week to week but that was more because he didn't have a feature back and was searching for someone to step up. The starting RB in Minnesota during the 2004 season got 80% of the carries. Six times that year the #2 back for the game got zero or one carry.
 
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Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
TODAY, I rank these as follows.......

Sjax - Most productive of the bunch last year.  Best offesive team of the bunch.  Least competition for touches.  Coaching change should HELP, as Martz was a little on the pass happy side.

Brown - I think the fish with CPep are better than the CSimms led Bucs.  TODAY - Ricky is suspended.  Even if over-turned, I expect a draft day trade for the Rasta.

Caddy - Great start, but showed quick some wear and tear with the work-load.  Has a great backup in Pittman and one of the best short yardage backs in Alstott to vulture touches and TDs.  Gruden likes to use alot of different RBs - just look at his old Oakland team stats.
re - gruden, charlie garner put up some good numbers in OAK, but basically the team didn't have a RB with top 5 overall pedigree or caliber of cadillac during that time.cadillac started & finished strong, & was hurt in middle of season... if others are predicting injury, sure his carries could get cut into... but if healthy, who would you rather carry the ball... caddy or pittman? one reason i like cadillac is he seems the most elusive of the three... also a nice combination of moves & power... he was good enough to be the goalline RB in auburn over brown...

 
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Red Herring

Footballguy
TODAY, I rank these as follows.......

Sjax - Most productive of the bunch last year.  Best offesive team of the bunch.  Least competition for touches.  Coaching change should HELP, as Martz was a little on the pass happy side.

Brown - I think the fish with CPep are better than the CSimms led Bucs.  TODAY - Ricky is suspended.  Even if over-turned, I expect a draft day trade for the Rasta.

Caddy - Great start, but showed quick some wear and tear with the work-load.  Has a great backup in Pittman and one of the best short yardage backs in Alstott to vulture touches and TDs.  Gruden likes to use alot of different RBs - just look at his old Oakland team stats.
re - gruden, charlie garner put up some good numbers in OAK, but basically the team didn't have a RB with top 5 overall pedigree or caliber of cadillac during that time.cadillac started & finished strong, & was hurt in middle of season... if others are predicting injury, sure his carries could get cut into... but if healthy, who would you rather carry the ball... caddy or pittman? one reason i like cadillac is he seems the most elusive of the three... also a nice combination of moves & power... he was good enough to be the goalline RB in auburn over brown...
If we were comparing RBs by themselves, you are dead on. However, between the 3, Caddy is in the worst situation by far:Caddy: Gruden-coached teams haven't been RB powerhouses. Pittman and Alstott will both vulture carries. Will it surprise anyone to see Pittman/Alstott get more touches to keep Caddy fresh?

Brown: Biggest detractor is a 3-time NFL Substance Abuse case appealing his 4th, who, if he wins his appeal, is likely to be traded. 'Pepper may not be around the first few games.

SJax: Uncertainty as to how the new coaching staff will use him.

Talent-wise, I would probably rank them Caddy-Brown-SJax. Their situations rank: STL-MIA-TB. If you could put caddy in STL, I think he stands head and shoulders above the other 2. Since we can't, his situation puts him behind the other 2.

 
just interested to know why Cedric Benson didn't make the list? injuries and a holdout in 2005 hurt his chances to start, I understand, but he should push aside the 'never-has-been' Thomas Jones by the end of training camp this year..Jones has never stayed healthy for an entire year, and the Bears don't pay Benson a fortune to sit and rot on the sidelines..they'll get him in as the featured back one way or another..Not sure Frank Gore doesn't belong on the list either...Norv Turner spins gold with every RB he coaches..Barlow looks like he could be the odd man out..
This was about guys who will be mid 2nd rounders at the worst. Benson and Gore aren't in the same stratosphere ADP wise and neither has a year under their belt as a starter to pick apart.
 

UnknownCoach

Footballguy
Caddy is the best runner of the 3. However Jackson and Brown possess excellent receiving skills in addition to their running abilities and Caddy is still suspect in the recieving game. Jackson is the most complete back of the 3 at this point. Jackson is also the biggest but a little slower than the other 2. Brown's running skills are still suspect to call him one of the league's best RBs but he has the perfect measurables. I think they all 3 possess good goalline skills and can all run both inside and outside.

As far as situation, they are all 3 the clear horse of the team if Ricky is suspended. Caddy is the victem of the worst blocking by far. St Louis and Miami both look like at least average teams to run for now that Martz has been run off.

 

Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
TODAY, I rank these as follows.......

Sjax - Most productive of the bunch last year.  Best offesive team of the bunch.  Least competition for touches.  Coaching change should HELP, as Martz was a little on the pass happy side.

Brown - I think the fish with CPep are better than the CSimms led Bucs.  TODAY - Ricky is suspended.  Even if over-turned, I expect a draft day trade for the Rasta.

Caddy - Great start, but showed quick some wear and tear with the work-load.  Has a great backup in Pittman and one of the best short yardage backs in Alstott to vulture touches and TDs.  Gruden likes to use alot of different RBs - just look at his old Oakland team stats.
re - gruden, charlie garner put up some good numbers in OAK, but basically the team didn't have a RB with top 5 overall pedigree or caliber of cadillac during that time.cadillac started & finished strong, & was hurt in middle of season... if others are predicting injury, sure his carries could get cut into... but if healthy, who would you rather carry the ball... caddy or pittman? one reason i like cadillac is he seems the most elusive of the three... also a nice combination of moves & power... he was good enough to be the goalline RB in auburn over brown...
If we were comparing RBs by themselves, you are dead on. However, between the 3, Caddy is in the worst situation by far:Caddy: Gruden-coached teams haven't been RB powerhouses. Pittman and Alstott will both vulture carries. Will it surprise anyone to see Pittman/Alstott get more touches to keep Caddy fresh?

Brown: Biggest detractor is a 3-time NFL Substance Abuse case appealing his 4th, who, if he wins his appeal, is likely to be traded. 'Pepper may not be around the first few games.

SJax: Uncertainty as to how the new coaching staff will use him.

Talent-wise, I would probably rank them Caddy-Brown-SJax. Their situations rank: STL-MIA-TB. If you could put caddy in STL, I think he stands head and shoulders above the other 2. Since we can't, his situation puts him behind the other 2.
i would still make the case, as have others (like bloom) that gruden hasn't had a RB as talented as caddy before (you don't seem to disagree caddy is talented)...we could be reading in to what gruden did in the past adapting to circumstances, & thinking it is an entrenched philosophy...

i'm not worried about his carries... before (and after) getting hurt, he ran the ball plenty... if anything, almost too much (frightening amount of carries leading up to setting NFL pace by being first rookie to gain 100+ yards in first three games)... pittman & alstott carried more when he was hurt, less when he was healthy... i'd expect more of the same...

lets pretend jim brown in his prime was going into his second year in TB... we probably wouldn't be saying, gruden RBs don't get to carry a lot...

as far as comparing situations, there are similarities...

all three have sketchy OLs )one reason i like caddy's elusiveness... it will come in handy :) )...

simms seems to be QB with most question marks... bulger is a stud when healthy & c-pepp might be best long term if he comes all the way back, but there are questions this season due to his knee injury...

both teams have good skill position players... rams probably best (holt, bruce & curtis one of best, if not top WR trios in league)... certainly a reason to recommend jax... but galloway, clayton & alex smith are solid, as is chambers & mcmichael...

one hidden factor is defense... STL not very good last season (i expect improvement this season with FAs like witherspoon, two players in top 43 in deep class & better coaching & scheme)... MIA improving... but clearly TB best...

that means caddy gets the ball a lot... gets ball more with short field... if not winning they are probably in close games to the end, & in position where they can run the ball if they choose (i can't tell you how many times in last two years rams rolled up their running game when they got down by 2+ TDs... this, along with mad martz's whims & idiosyncracies, were key contributing factors to jax's maddening inconsistency... the high games are nice, but the lows were brutal)...

* good point about caddy being least accomplished WR... brown clearly best & jax was very good in college... they were both touted as most complete RBs in respective classes, & haven't disappointed... i do think caddy isn't a spaz & just wasn't asked to at auburn (just as brown wasn't asked to be goal line runner but almost certainly could have if asked)... he got good reviews at the senior bowl... if gruden had any doubts about his receiving, they were answered there...

 
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M

MLBrandow

Guest
1. SJ. High octane offense. Dual threat as running and catching. Faulk aging more and more. The only fear is injury

2. RB. Better physical skills than Caddy. Team on the upswing. Strong second half last year. Ricky is a huge x-factor.

3. CW. Cant handle a huge work load. Too many carries for loss. Shares with other capable rb's. Borderline #1 IMO.

If Ricky Williams is NOT a dolphin this year for various reasons, Caddilac is a distant third on this list IMO.
Strong Second Half for Ronnie Brown? :no: Cadillac can't handle a huge workload? Did you watch the Bucs play? He could have toted the rock 40 times a game and not slowed down. The first injury was just from a bad step he took and severely strained a muscle in his foot, and the second almost tore the hamstring off of said leg. And he mostly played through both. Neither were the result of "wearing" down, just being unlucky. Anyone except the magical Brett Favre in that situation would have missed time.

I like how you mention that Cadillac shares with other "capable RBs", yet you fail to give equal praise to Ricky Williams. You also just arbitrarily decide that Miami must have a better offense because they are having a better offseason, when it was pretty obvious last year that the Bucs were doing more with less, and the Rams were doing more with more (until the staff problems).

I think you can make a viable argument for either Stephen Jackson or Cadillac Williams being the best of this group, but anyone who believes Ronnie Brown is going to belong in the same group as the former two isn't thinking coherently.

What injuries did Ronnie Brown play through? None.. he just sucked.

The Success of the Miami Dolphins last year was directly correlated to Ricky Williams, and inversely correlated to Ronnie Brown. Once Ricky got in stride, the Dolphins won every game. You'd be foolish to attribute Brown's production to the Dolphins' success.

Brown's YPC for 2005: 4.4

Brown's YPC for the last half of 2005: 3.65

Brown's YPC for the last quarter of 2005: 2.95

Brown's YPC for the last game of 2005: 2.6 (this was the game NE tanked)

Cadillac's YPC for 2005: 4.1

Cadillac's YPC for the last half of 2005: 4.2

Cadillac's YPC for the last quarter of 2005: 3.8

Cadillac's YPC for the last game of 2005: 3.7

SJax's YPC for 2005: 4.1

SJax's YPC for last half of 2005: 3.3

SJax's YPC for last quarter of 2005: 3.2

SJax's YPC for last game of 2005: 1.8

Now, they all drop, and of these, only Cadillac was consistant over the last half of the season. If you take away the outlier game of NE (only the second time he had ever seen snow, the first being a game his senior year in college, 14 for 23yds), he averages a robust 4.5ypc over the last half of the season, including 4.2ypc for the last quarter.

Cadillac suffered the hamstring injury on one of the first plays in the Lions game, I believe his second carry, but don't quote me on that. If you take out that six game stretch when he was recovering (and PLAYED through mind you), he averages 4.16ypc for the year.... notice this is the same going into and ending the season.

Jackson had team and coaching problems and now comes into 2006 with a new coaching staff. It's hard to predict where he's going to go.

Cadillac is a model of consistancy, and therefore gets the nod. It has also been said in several places through the course of last season and this offseason thusfar, that the Bucs coaching staff expects for him to be involved heavily in the passing game, with as many as 50-60 receptions next year. Now, if this came from Denny Green, I'd just toss it aside, but Gruden is a realist.

Ronnie Brown though, if you look at his numbers, his team's success is almost perfectly correlated to Ricky's return. To put it another way, as Ronnie Brown's workload and production declined, the Dolphins started winning.

I fail to see how Brown even will compete with Cadillac or Jackson, when the numbers (and game film) clearly indicate that CW and SJ are in a league of their own, and Brown is just struggling to finish games.

Fantasy Super Bowls last year:

Cadillac Williams: 150 yards, TD

Stephen Jackson, 28 yards, TD

Ronnie Brown, DNP (grouped between 45 yards, 0TD and 21 yards, 0TD)

So... in a nutshell:

1. Cadillac Williams (model of consistancy, much less risk)

2. Stephen Jackson (high risk, greater potential than CW)

3. Ronnie Brown (won't even be the starting RB if Ricky comes back, wouldn't even rank him if I didn't have to)

 
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FBGPoker

Fruitcake
I think Caddy is the best RB, but he's had injury problems throughout his college and NFL career. In a dynasty league that is a big big factor.

1)Ronnie Brown

2)Benson/Caddy tie

If not for the injury concerns i'd rank Caddy #1, but i see him being banged up many times throughout his career. His running style leaves him open to take way too many direct hits.

 
M

MLBrandow

Guest
1. Cadillac Williams (model of consistancy, much less risk)
Yeah, like consistantly hurt.
Good thing you didn't read my post, otherwise you might have been forced to change your opinion!Call me crazy, but I'm a numbers guy.

Numbers are a much better prediction of future numbers than are random injuries, which are unpredictable.

The numbers indicate that, when on the field, Cadillac is far better than Ronnie Brown.

I don't think it's fair to criticize him because of an injury that anyone could have suffered.

What I do think is fair is comparing the fact that Ronnie Brown noticably declined this season and was almost phased out of the offense, whereas Cadillac Williams flourished every time he got the ball.

Brown will have new OL and a new QB and a new OC to mesh with, not to mention dealing with Ricky Williams all year, which is a losing battle.

It seems to me that the general perception of Cadillac and Brown is skewed and anyone that hasn't bothered to actually read into these misconceptions remains ignorant.

All the better for me I suppose. I'll laugh my way to the redraft championships if I can get Cadillac in the 2nd round.

I think Caddy is the best RB, but he's had injury problems throughout his college and NFL career.  In a dynasty league that is a big big factor.

1)Ronnie Brown

2)Benson/Caddy tie

If not for the injury concerns i'd rank Caddy #1, but i see him being banged up many times throughout his career.  His running style leaves him open to take way too many direct hits.
Just stop. "Caddy gets banged up because he sets himself up to take too many direct hits, whereas Brown, who runs directly into linebackers, doesn't wear down at all....." :no:
 
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Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
good points about injury risk...

but doesn't brown also have an injury history that extends back to college as well. & as a rams fan i'm pretty sure jax has been banged up in each of the last two seasons... he supposedly had to have fluid drained from knee his rookie year, though i don't have a link on that... i could try & look it up...

as far as running styles, caddy does absorb some blows by running bigger than his size (he will sometimes seek out contact & try & run over DBs like his idol, walter payton)... but i'm not sure if his foot injury was due to his running style? he did make it worse by refusing to acknowledge its severity, & bloom has relayed several times that he claims to have learned his lesson from that...

if anything, jackson has a very upright running style & also doesn't necessarily have as much elusiveness to avoid big hits... so if running style is going to be cited as a concern for caddy, it should be for jackson as well... of couse jax is like 230+ & caddy a listed 217, so some might think he can absorb blows better...

christian okoye was even bigger, but he took too many kill shots from upright running style... this seems to be a problem for the unusually built RB chris brown (i think a WR-like 6'3"?)... LJ runs upright (as opposed to LT who is great at getting small when he bursts through line & doesn't offer up a big target to would be tacklers), but he is so big & strong & such a great athlete, not to mention has such an outstanding OL, that it hasn't been a big problem... YET... but he has never played a full season as the MAN, so it might be fair to say the jury is still out on his ability to carry the load an entire season (just to be clear, i expect him to be a lot more durable than chris brown, & don't want to imply undue concerns about his running style when they aren't there, just stating the fact that he hasn't been tested as a feature RB over 16 games)... not as sure about SA, but i think he runs somewhat upright...

not as sure about ronnie brown's style, or if it is hybrid...

some of hallmarks of great runner... patience, vision, field awareness, ability to follow blocks & see play develope & unfold "beforehand"... imo, caddy seems to have the best package relative to other two...

* i am guilty of not always distinguishing between dynasty & redraft... if anything, i'm more geared to dynasty, but i know for many they are only concerned about redraft...

in redraft i would tier...

jackson

caddy

brown (hard to assign value with ricky williams uncertainty... even if he is out for season, though, i would probably still leave like this)...

in dynasty...

caddy

brown

jackson

i may be reading too much into statement this offseason by randy karraker, a local STL journalist... he thinks there is something missing from jackson, & that they will need another RB if they are going to get back to super bowl (obviously better defense factors in :) )... that may be kind of harsh, but i don't think jax is that elusive for supposedly complete RB, & i think based on what i have seen in first two years, he is overrated as short yardage & goalline runner... which may be rooted in not having elite vision or cutting ability?

 
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sirfumblesalot

Footballguy
Just trying to get some discussion going on these guys, as they appear to be the best of the young crop of RBs right now.

All three are former 1st round picks, and all three put up comparable numbers their first year as a starter.

Caddy is returning to relatively decent situation. Stable coaching staff and a friendly offensive system. His main negative is the competition for TDs and catches with Alstott/Pittman.

SJ has the running game all to himself, but his team is in flux with an all new coaching staff (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). He had some injury concerns going into the season, but all things considered, I'd say he took the pounding rather well.

Ronnie has potential competition from Ricky Williams with the drug test appeal still going. Miami seemed vastly improved from their 2004 season.

All three play for teams that should have respectable offenses in 2006. Miami could get off to a slow start with no depth behind Culpepper should be not be ready. Tampa wasn't a super offense last year, but they seemed capable of moving the ball and Simms has a year of starting experience under his belt. Gruden has been great for QBs in the past. St. Louis has the best skill position players and they can be a dominant offense, but the middle-right side of their line is ancient and RT Barron is just in his second year.
The way I see it:- Caddy = Rudi Johnson, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

- SJax is a power runner who will put up solid numbers (80-85 yards rush, 30 yds rec. 0.75 TDs per game

- Brown, once given the starting role, should have a ceiling of Edge. Solid runner and a good receiver.

I would rate Brown and SJax close and Caddy a distant 3rd.

 

Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
caddy is vastly more elusive than rudi...

that would be sort of like comparing jerome bettis with tiki barber...

their both human... they have two arms & legs... comparisons cease to be meaningful pretty quickly after that...

 
T

trader jake

Guest
1) ronnie brown

2) cadillac williams

3) steven jackson

ronnie and cadillac were top 5 picks for a reason - they have the physical abilities to do it all on the field. steven jackson is a great player as well but his upside is just a tad behind the two auburn products

 
M

MLBrandow

Guest
good points about injury risk...

but doesn't brown also have an injury history that extends back to college as well. & as a rams fan i'm pretty sure jax has been banged up in each of the last two seasons... he supposedly had to have fluid drained from knee his rookie year, though i don't have a link on that... i could try & look it up...

as far as running styles, caddy does absorb some blows by running bigger than his size (he will sometimes seek out contact & try & run over DBs like his idol, walter payton)... but i'm not sure if his foot injury was due to his running style? he did make it worse by refusing to acknowledge its severity, & bloom has relayed several times that he claims to have learned his lesson from that...

if anything, jackson has a very upright running style & also doesn't necessarily have as much elusiveness to avoid big hits... so if running style is going to be cited as a concern for caddy, it should be for jackson as well... of couse jax is like 230+ & caddy a listed 217, so some might think he can absorb blows better...

christian okoye was even bigger, but he took too many kill shots from upright running style... this seems to be a problem for the unusually built RB chris brown (i think a WR-like 6'3"?)... LJ runs upright (as opposed to LT who is great at getting small when he bursts through line & doesn't offer up a big target to would be tacklers), but he is so big & strong & such a great athlete, not to mention has such an outstanding OL, that it hasn't been a big problem... YET... but he has never played a full season as the MAN, so it might be fair to say the jury is still out on his ability to carry the load an entire season (just to be clear, i expect him to be a lot more durable than chris brown, & don't want to imply undue concerns about his running style when they aren't there, just stating the fact that he hasn't been tested as a feature RB over 16 games)... not as sure about SA, but i think he runs somewhat upright...

not as sure about ronnie brown's style, or if it is hybrid...

some of hallmarks of great runner... patience, vision, field awareness, ability to follow blocks & see play develope & unfold "beforehand"... imo, caddy seems to have the best package relative to other two...

* i am guilty of not always distinguishing between dynasty & redraft... if anything, i'm more geared to dynasty, but i know for many they are only concerned about redraft...

in redraft i would tier...

jackson

caddy

brown (hard to assign value with ricky williams uncertainty... even if he is out for season, though, i would probably still leave like this)...

in dynasty...

caddy

brown

jackson

i may be reading too much into statement this offseason by randy karraker, a local STL journalist... he thinks there is something missing from jackson, & that they will need another RB if they are going to get back to super bowl (obviously better defense factors in :) )... that may be kind of harsh, but i don't think jax is that elusive for supposedly complete RB, & i think based on what i have seen in first two years, he is overrated as short yardage & goalline runner... which may be rooted in not having elite vision or cutting ability?
Thanks for corroborating my opinions. It seems like we are in the minority, and I'm just not sure why.People knock Cadillac's injuries, yet fail to realize Brown's and Jackson's?

One may recall that when Ronnie Brown actually did serve as a feature back in college, he had five amazing games, and then broke down.

As soon as he took over in Miami, Ricky came back, and so we can't be too sure whether it was his own wearing down or Ricky's forcing him to be relegated back into RBBC role, but one of these caused a very significant decline in his numbers.

I would presume the same for Jackson, except he had a slew of mitigating circumstances from injuries to his quarterback to his coaching staff in awry, and so there is just a much bigger "wildcard" factor.

History connotes that Ronnie Brown can't handle a full load. When he's been given the opportunity, he's broken down. He looks for contact and he has proven (thusfar) that even at 235 pounds, he is unable to take the same beating he dishes out.

Now, there was significant criticism of how much his own hammering affected Cadillac's ability to make the amazing plays he did in college on such a consistent basis. I, to my own dismay, was one of them. But Cadillac has clearly shown that he has both the vision and power to separate him among the elite backs in this game.

Ronnie Brown thusfar has merely shown me that he still would rather deliver a beating than run for a touchdown.

I'm still unclear to me why the masses would rather have Brown than Williams. In both cases, the "other capable RBs" compiled about 800 yards and 6 TDs (Williams for Miami and Pittman/Alstott for TB). However, the production of TB's backups was always in relief of Cadillac and not in spite of him, as is the case with Brown.

Ricky was simply outperforming Brown, which, combined with his general wearing down as the season progressed, attributed for his lack of playing time.

The other argument is that both of these guys (Brown and Jackson) are better receivers than Cadillac. This is also false. In fact, I fail to see how the two of them putting up about 300 yards receiving makes them far better receivers than Cadillac, who has been repeatedly praised for his underrated hands, and repeatedly quoted last season and this offseason (as aforementioned) as slated to be HEAVILY involved in the receiving game in 2006.

Before I would simply write off Cadillac for Brown as many of you are, I'd like to understand the logic in why 1) all of these stats are completely misleading, and 2) how Ronnie Brown has even proven that he is a feature back.

I personally am not sold on the validity of either claim, and I will continue to back the RB who has proven to date to be the most reliable of the three, and who is likely on track as I see it for a 2,000 yard (combined), 10TD season in 2006.

Realize one thing above all else, too, in quantifying injuries:

There is a big difference between injuries caused by wearing down and injuries caused by hits or wrong steps. One denotes a trend, and one is unpredictable.

I would be much more concerned in drafting for my fantasy team of the fact that Jackson and Brown have been wearing down (without even shouldering a full load) over a 16 game season than Cadillac having an unlucky step, and then the misfortune to accent that foot strain with an awkward tackle that pulled the hamstring on the same leg.

I would also credit Cadillac much more for being able to play through (for the most part) these injuries, which were much more serious than the general beating up that Brown and Jackson took.

 
T

trader jake

Guest
Thanks for corroborating my opinions. It seems like we are in the minority, and I'm just not sure why.People knock Cadillac's injuries, yet fail to realize Brown's and Jackson's?One may recall that when Ronnie Brown actually did serve as a feature back in college, he had five amazing games, and then broke down.As soon as he took over in Miami, Ricky came back, and so we can't be too sure whether it was his own wearing down or Ricky's forcing him to be relegated back into RBBC role, but one of these caused a very significant decline in his numbers.I would presume the same for Jackson, except he had a slew of mitigating circumstances from injuries to his quarterback to his coaching staff in awry, and so there is just a much bigger "wildcard" factor.History connotes that Ronnie Brown can't handle a full load. When he's been given the opportunity, he's broken down. He looks for contact and he has proven (thusfar) that even at 235 pounds, he is unable to take the same beating he dishes out.Now, there was significant criticism of how much his own hammering affected Cadillac's ability to make the amazing plays he did in college on such a consistent basis. I, to my own dismay, was one of them. But Cadillac has clearly shown that he has both the vision and power to separate him among the elite backs in this game.Ronnie Brown thusfar has merely shown me that he still would rather deliver a beating than run for a touchdown.I'm still unclear to me why the masses would rather have Brown than Williams. In both cases, the "other capable RBs" compiled about 800 yards and 6 TDs (Williams for Miami and Pittman/Alstott for TB). However, the production of TB's backups was always in relief of Cadillac and not in spite of him, as is the case with Brown.Ricky was simply outperforming Brown, which, combined with his general wearing down as the season progressed, attributed for his lack of playing time.The other argument is that both of these guys (Brown and Jackson) are better receivers than Cadillac. This is also false. In fact, I fail to see how the two of them putting up about 300 yards receiving makes them far better receivers than Cadillac, who has been repeatedly praised for his underrated hands, and repeatedly quoted last season and this offseason (as aforementioned) as slated to be HEAVILY involved in the receiving game in 2006.Before I would simply write off Cadillac for Brown as many of you are, I'd like to understand the logic in why 1) all of these stats are completely misleading, and 2) how Ronnie Brown has even proven that he is a feature back.I personally am not sold on the validity of either claim, and I will continue to back the RB who has proven to date to be the most reliable of the three, and who is likely on track as I see it for a 2,000 yard (combined), 10TD season in 2006.Realize one thing above all else, too, in quantifying injuries:There is a big difference between injuries caused by wearing down and injuries caused by hits or wrong steps. One denotes a trend, and one is unpredictable.I would be much more concerned in drafting for my fantasy team of the fact that Jackson and Brown have been wearing down (without even shouldering a full load) over a 16 game season than Cadillac having an unlucky step, and then the misfortune to accent that foot strain with an awkward tackle that pulled the hamstring on the same leg.I would also credit Cadillac much more for being able to play through (for the most part) these injuries, which were much more serious than the general beating up that Brown and Jackson took.
:goodposting: :football: :goodposting:that's what offseason threads are all abouti find the difference between cadillac and ronnie to be almost insignificant (so i stay away from the heated debates between the the players) myself. again, great post MLBrandow
 

Blackjacks

Footballguy
1. Cadillac Williams (model of consistancy, much less risk)
Yeah, like consistantly hurt.
Good thing you didn't read my post, otherwise you might have been forced to change your opinion!Call me crazy, but I'm a numbers guy.

Numbers are a much better prediction of future numbers than are random injuries, which are unpredictable.

The numbers indicate that, when on the field, Cadillac is far better than Ronnie Brown.

I don't think it's fair to criticize him because of an injury that anyone could have suffered.

What I do think is fair is comparing the fact that Ronnie Brown noticably declined this season and was almost phased out of the offense, whereas Cadillac Williams flourished every time he got the ball.

Brown will have new OL and a new QB and a new OC to mesh with, not to mention dealing with Ricky Williams all year, which is a losing battle.

It seems to me that the general perception of Cadillac and Brown is skewed and anyone that hasn't bothered to actually read into these misconceptions remains ignorant.

All the better for me I suppose. I'll laugh my way to the redraft championships if I can get Cadillac in the 2nd round.

I think Caddy is the best RB, but he's had injury problems throughout his college and NFL career. In a dynasty league that is a big big factor.

1)Ronnie Brown

2)Benson/Caddy tie

If not for the injury concerns i'd rank Caddy #1, but i see him being banged up many times throughout his career. His running style leaves him open to take way too many direct hits.
Just stop. "Caddy gets banged up because he sets himself up to take too many direct hits, whereas Brown, who runs directly into linebackers, doesn't wear down at all....." :no:
Caddy had 100 total yards more and 1 more td when Ronnie was in a rbbc. This dude just has hatred for Ronnie. Yo Brnadow if your a #'s guy why were all your #'s wrong in the last Ronnie Brown thread. Just admit you don't like him instead of trying to sell us on him not being good. That's like me, I don't like Tiki, I think he takes a huge hit this year but I'd be crazy to tell you to take Rudi over him.......but I would.
 

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