IDrinkyourMilkshake
Footballguy
Champ Bailey. 9 time pro-bowler, 3 time all-pro. All-decade team. Arguably the best CB to play over the past ten years. He turns 32 this year. No SB appearances. Let's say he plays another 3 or 4 years.
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Champ Bailey (1 Viewer)
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Adebisi
Footballguy
He is a HOFer (and I'm usually one to shoot down these types of threads), but I have never heard anyone call him the best corner ever to play the game. I think that is going way overboard.And although Champ has clearly been more well-rounded, I don't think too many people outside of Colorado would take him over Deion.
Yellow Line is Unoffcial
Footballguy
1st Ballot no brainer
He is NOT the best cover corner to play the game. He's not even the best corner cover right now, and he never was as good as Deion.
NeverEnough
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
Off the top of my head, I think Deion, Woodson, and Blount were all definitely better. Some of the other HOF CBs were before my time, so I'm not sure about them. And I think Aeneas Williams was better, too, but I realize many will disagree on that. Regardless, I agree Champ is a HOFer.
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thatguy
Footballguy
thatguy
Footballguy
Champ's 2006 season is arguably the best season ever by a CB. And his 2005 and 2006 seasons combined have to be the best two year stretch of any CB in history. He was simply amazing during the stretch.
He is also arguably the most sure tackler of any CB in history. He doesn't go high on guys and put his body in harms way, he's not known for big hits - in fact, quite the contrary, he always goes low, and even in the open field rarely misses a tackle.
He is also arguably the most sure tackler of any CB in history. He doesn't go high on guys and put his body in harms way, he's not known for big hits - in fact, quite the contrary, he always goes low, and even in the open field rarely misses a tackle.
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spider321
Footballguy
Deion has already been addressed.Woodson was great and had a longer "prime", but imo Champ was better.Lott's best years were at free safety. Champ was the better corner.Blount was before my time.Aeneas was very good for a long time, never great.I'm not necessarily saying that Champ IS the best corner of all time. Only that he most definately belongs in the discussion.
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Yellow Line is Unoffcial
Footballguy
Woodson and Aeneas were both playing safety by this time in their career.Deion has already been addressed.Woodson was great and had a longer "prime", but imo Champ was better.Lott's best years were at free safety. Champ was the better corner.Blount was before my time.Aeneas was very good for a long time, never great.I'm not necessarily saying that Champ IS the best corner of all time. Only thay he most definately belongs in the discussion.Off the top of my head, I think Deion, Woodson, and Blount were all definitely better. Some of the other HOF CBs were before my time, so I'm not sure about them. And I think Aeneas Williams was better, too, but I realize many will disagree on that. Regardless, I agree Champ is a HOFer.
Tau837
Footballguy
Sure, Deion has already been addressed. And most who mentioned him in this thread think he was better than Champ. Deion has twice as many 1st team All Pro selections, which is fairly compelling.Woodson has one more 1st team All Pro selection than Champ at CB. I don't see any objective evidence to show that Champ was better.The NFL changed the pass defense rules largely due to Blount. And he excelled both before and after the rule change. Enough said.If you think Aeneas Williams was never great, I don't think you know much about him or saw him play much in his prime. You couldn't be more wrong about that.Deion has already been addressed.Woodson was great and had a longer "prime", but imo Champ was better.Lott's best years were at free safety. Champ was the better corner.Blount was before my time.Aeneas was very good for a long time, never great.I'm not necessarily saying that Champ IS the best corner of all time. Only thay he most definately belongs in the discussion.
Adebisi
Footballguy
And with that, your credibility for judging CBs more or less went out the window.Deion has already been addressed.Woodson was great and had a longer "prime", but imo Champ was better.
Lott's best years were at free safety. Champ was the better corner.
Blount was before my time.
Aeneas was very good for a long time, never great.
I'm not necessarily saying that Champ IS the best corner of all time. Only thay he most definately belongs in the discussion.
Tau837
Footballguy
Wrong. Woodson was 34 and in his 13th season when he switched to safety. Aeneas was 35 and in his 13th season when he switched to safety. Champ will be 32 this year, which will be his 12th season.Woodson and Aeneas were both playing safety by this time in their career.Deion has already been addressed.Woodson was great and had a longer "prime", but imo Champ was better.Lott's best years were at free safety. Champ was the better corner.Blount was before my time.Aeneas was very good for a long time, never great.I'm not necessarily saying that Champ IS the best corner of all time. Only thay he most definately belongs in the discussion.
spider321
Footballguy
True. Most do think Deion was better. Most also think Brady is better than Marino was.How many of Woodson's 1st team All Pro selections were as a cornerback? Even if they all were, does that prove he was better? Was Charles Woodson better that Revis this year because he won the DPOY?I stand by my statement on Williams.I'm done with this particular message board pissing contest as I refuse to search and search for some stats to pull outa my ### that "prove" whichever side I'm on.Sure, Deion has already been addressed. And most who mentioned him in this thread think he was better than Champ. Deion has twice as many 1st team All Pro selections, which is fairly compelling.Woodson has one more 1st team All Pro selection than Champ at CB. I don't see any objective evidence to show that Champ was bettsearch er.The NFL changed the pass defense rules largely due to Blount. And he excelled both before and after the rule change. Enough said.If you think Aeneas Williams was never great, I don't think you know much about him or saw him play much in his prime. You couldn't be more wrong about that.Deion has already been addressed.Woodson was great and had a longer "prime", but imo Champ was better.Lott's best years were at free safety. Champ was the better corner.Blount was before my time.Aeneas was very good for a long time, never great.I'm not necessarily saying that Champ IS the best corner of all time. Only thay he most definately belongs in the discussion.
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Tau837
Footballguy
As I said above, Woodson had 4 1st team All Pro selections as a CB. He was 1st team All Pro another time as a kick returner and another time as a safety, for 6 total 1st team All Pro selections.You make a good point about Woodson vs. Revis, because I think Revis was better last year and I felt he was deserving of the DPOY award. But that doesn't mean Woodson's edge in All Pros is invalid. Oh yeah, and Woodson also won a Defensive Player of the Year award as a CB, something Bailey hasn't done.To go a bit further, Bailey has started 166 games as a CB. Woodson played 163 games before he switched to safety (at least 155 of those were at CB, not sure how much CB he played in the 8 games he played as a rookie, since he didn't start any games). In that span, Woodson had more interceptions (47 to 46), sacks (13.5 to 2), forced fumbles (17 to 6), fumble recoveries (22 to 6), tackles (763 tackles and 43 assists to 662/82), and TDs (8 to 4).Basically, there is no evidence that can be cited that shows Bailey to have been better than Woodson as a CB. The only possible argument is that Bailey wasn't targeted as often and thus didn't have as many opportunities to compile those statistics. But unless someone can cite how often Champ and Woodson were thrown at throughout their careers at CB, along with the compiled results of those throws, I don't think that argument can be conclusive.And your stance that Williams wasn't great continues to undermine your credibility, as does your comment that you won't continue this "pissing match". No one is pissing in this thread. Basically, it sounds like you have no arguments to back up your views, so you have no choice but to give up.
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Unless I misread the title of the thread, no one here cares who was the best CB of all time.
Very hard to judge for a plethora of reasons.
For example, Prime Time was greater threat for Pick6. Bailey better cover and tackler.
I actually don't care who was better, I just wish either were on my team.
Bailey to HoF is a great bet.
Very hard to judge for a plethora of reasons.
For example, Prime Time was greater threat for Pick6. Bailey better cover and tackler.
I actually don't care who was better, I just wish either were on my team.
Bailey to HoF is a great bet.
Harjiran
Footballguy
Give me Darrell Green all day over any of the aforementioned CBs. In my mind, Champ is a very good, fundamentally sound, physical corner who lacks intangibles and never did anything pivotal or amazing during a game (unlike Deion or Darrell). That is, he never took the team on his back. He never won a Super Bowl either. I voted no but I think he's a borderline HOFer. He'll probably get in, but not on first ballot. Just my humble opinion.
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thatguy
Footballguy
Harjiran
Footballguy
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Arguably, this is the worst post ever. Champ is nowhere near the best corners to play the game. Someone has a case of amnesia or was born post 1990 to even suggest this.
The question being asked is whether or not Champ Bailey is a Hall of Famer. I think the answer to that is a clear, unequivocal, resounding "YES!". Even if he hangs his cleats up tomorrow, I think he's a stone-cold lock. An amazing 9 pro bowls in just 10 full seasons- tied with Mike Haynes and Willie Brown (both HoFers) for most ever by a CB- although Woodson and Renfro (also both HoFers) earned more than 9 if you count their pro bowls as a safety. 6 combined AP All Pro honors (3 first team), and all-decade status. He has the name recognition, the awards, and the stats. He was for a while considered the best at his position, he's pretty much always been the best player on his own team, and he's the guy that all subsequent CBs have been measured against for years. Definitely a Hall of Famer- no question about it.
As to the second question, whether he's the best CB of all time... I think he's top 5, which naturally means he's in the discussion. I'd take Woodson and Blount over Bailey, although I think Bailey and Sanders are pretty comparable- it's just a question of whether Sanders' edge in coverage ability, an area where Bailey was still a stud, is enough to outweigh Bailey's massive edge in run support, an area where Sanders was terrible. Some people will come down strongly on one side, others will come down strongly on the other. Personally, now that I've had a couple of years to ponder the question (and now that I'm a bit more removed from Bailey's remarkable '05-'06 seasons, which in my opinion top anything Sanders ever did), then I come down strictly in the middle. I don't really know which was better. It's like asking whether Derrick Brooks was better than Ray Lewis. They both had different responsibilities. They both performed their specific responsibilities at a level far above their peers, but it's hard to do a direct comparison of the two, even though they technically played the same position.
I also think the Sanders/Bailey debate gets muddled a lot because there are two different questions at play: "who is a better player?" and "who played better?". If Deion had devoted himself to football full-time, I think he could have blown away every CB ever... but he didn't. At the same time, if Bailey had returned punts more often, I think he could have been a better punt returner than Sanders (Bailey actually averaged a higher career YPR than Deion, albeit on a much smaller sample)... but he didn't. If Sanders had played against the tougher rules, he might never have gotten a reputation as a true "shut down" CB... but he didn't. If Bailey had played for some better teams, he might have as many rings as Deion... but he didn't. There are a lot of "what-ifs" surrounding both players.
I will say that if Bailey converts to safety and winds up aging like Rod Woodson (tacking on 4 more pro bowls and one more 1AP), then I think this debate will be rendered moot.
If you want more than 1 play... how about the 2006 season, where Bailey led the league in INTs despite being the least-targeted starting CB in the NFL, all while not giving up a TD and finishing as the second-leading tackler on the team? You want to talk about high impact, why not discuss how of his 10 INTs that season, 7 occurred in the red zone (i.e. killing promising scoring drives), while an 8th was returned for a TD. Or if you want an example of a single game where Bailey put the team on his back... how about the game against Arizona in 2006 where Matt Leinart said the week before that he wasn't going to be afraid to test Champ Bailey. For the record, Leinart targeted Bailey twice all game... and Champ Bailey wound up intercepting both of them. Maybe you want to talk about defining a season? How about in 2005, when Denver lost week 1 and was trailing 14-3 at halftime in week 2 (getting booed off the field by the home fans), when Champ came out with a pick 6 to open the second half that has been widely regarded to this day as the catalyst of Denver's 13-3 season and home AFCCG appearance. How about the 18 regular season INTs in '05-'06 (most over a 2 season stretch since 1980), paired with 2 postseason INTs and over 400 return yards.
Seriously, that's the silliest statement in a thread that's featured several silly statements so far. Champ has a boatload of "signature moments". Far more, I'd dare say, than Darrell Green.
As to the second question, whether he's the best CB of all time... I think he's top 5, which naturally means he's in the discussion. I'd take Woodson and Blount over Bailey, although I think Bailey and Sanders are pretty comparable- it's just a question of whether Sanders' edge in coverage ability, an area where Bailey was still a stud, is enough to outweigh Bailey's massive edge in run support, an area where Sanders was terrible. Some people will come down strongly on one side, others will come down strongly on the other. Personally, now that I've had a couple of years to ponder the question (and now that I'm a bit more removed from Bailey's remarkable '05-'06 seasons, which in my opinion top anything Sanders ever did), then I come down strictly in the middle. I don't really know which was better. It's like asking whether Derrick Brooks was better than Ray Lewis. They both had different responsibilities. They both performed their specific responsibilities at a level far above their peers, but it's hard to do a direct comparison of the two, even though they technically played the same position.
I also think the Sanders/Bailey debate gets muddled a lot because there are two different questions at play: "who is a better player?" and "who played better?". If Deion had devoted himself to football full-time, I think he could have blown away every CB ever... but he didn't. At the same time, if Bailey had returned punts more often, I think he could have been a better punt returner than Sanders (Bailey actually averaged a higher career YPR than Deion, albeit on a much smaller sample)... but he didn't. If Sanders had played against the tougher rules, he might never have gotten a reputation as a true "shut down" CB... but he didn't. If Bailey had played for some better teams, he might have as many rings as Deion... but he didn't. There are a lot of "what-ifs" surrounding both players.
I will say that if Bailey converts to safety and winds up aging like Rod Woodson (tacking on 4 more pro bowls and one more 1AP), then I think this debate will be rendered moot.
Champ Bailey never did anything pivotal or amazing during a game?Define pivotal or amazing? Would intercepting a ball in the end zone and returning it 100+ yards to the 1 yard line count as pivotal or amazing? What if it came in a ballgame that his team led 10-6 (and the other team was in the red zone and about to score)? What if that ballgame came in the playoffs? What if the opposing QB had a 10-0 career playoff record with 14 TDs vs. just 3 INTs in those games? Would that qualify as pivotal or amazing? Please, tell me, what one play did Deion or Darrell ever make that was more pivotal or amazing than an INT in the end zone returned 100+ yards in the second half of a 1-score game in the playoffs against the two-time defending world champions? Please, take your time- it's the offseason, so I can wait a while.
If you want more than 1 play... how about the 2006 season, where Bailey led the league in INTs despite being the least-targeted starting CB in the NFL, all while not giving up a TD and finishing as the second-leading tackler on the team? You want to talk about high impact, why not discuss how of his 10 INTs that season, 7 occurred in the red zone (i.e. killing promising scoring drives), while an 8th was returned for a TD. Or if you want an example of a single game where Bailey put the team on his back... how about the game against Arizona in 2006 where Matt Leinart said the week before that he wasn't going to be afraid to test Champ Bailey. For the record, Leinart targeted Bailey twice all game... and Champ Bailey wound up intercepting both of them. Maybe you want to talk about defining a season? How about in 2005, when Denver lost week 1 and was trailing 14-3 at halftime in week 2 (getting booed off the field by the home fans), when Champ came out with a pick 6 to open the second half that has been widely regarded to this day as the catalyst of Denver's 13-3 season and home AFCCG appearance. How about the 18 regular season INTs in '05-'06 (most over a 2 season stretch since 1980), paired with 2 postseason INTs and over 400 return yards.
Seriously, that's the silliest statement in a thread that's featured several silly statements so far. Champ has a boatload of "signature moments". Far more, I'd dare say, than Darrell Green.
spider321
Footballguy
This from the genius who believes Emmitt was much better than Barry.Have you ever seen a football game, Cobalt?Arguably, this is the worst post ever. Champ is nowhere near the best corners to play the game. Someone has a case of amnesia or was born post 1990 to even suggest this.
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
Would you like to wager on the education challenge? I kinda think I got you beat.Whatever the case, Champ is hardly the best corner playing today, let alone over the history of time. He may have had a couple of years where he was the best corner, and he might be in the top-10. But, he doesn't belong in this discussion.ETA: Given your edited post, I will only add that, yes...as a season ticket holder to the Cowboys for many, many years, given my advancing age, I have probably seen more games live than you have seen on TV.[/thread]This from the genius who believes Emmitt was much better than Barry.Are you an uneducated ##### in all your posts, Cobalt?
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Building upon this... Darrell Green had 7 pro bowls, 1 first team AP All Pro, and 2 second team AP All Pros... in 20 years. Champ Bailey has 9, 3, and 3... in 11 years.Darrell Green had 54 career INTs... in 258 games (2.9 per 16 games). Champ Bailey has 46 career INTs... in 166 games (4.4 per 16 games). Champ Bailey could play 8 more seasons and only make 8 more INTs during that entire span... and he'd still average more INTs per game than Darrell Green.Green was an awesome punt returner, though. I mean, he averaged 12.0 yards per return for his career. Champ Bailey, on the other hand, averaged 12.1.Champ already has more sacks than Green (2 to 1), and more forced fumbles than Green (6 to 5). Green was a slightly more prolific tackler than Bailey (4.34 tackles per game through his first 17 seasons before he became a nickle back compared to 3.99 per game for Bailey- a difference of about 5.5 tackles per 16 games), although it's hard to read too much into tackle numbers for a CB (some CBs make more tackles because they get beat a lot, others make more tackles because they play a lot of zone, etc). In terms of perception at the time (as represented by awards), Bailey is a better player than Green. In terms of statistics (which is a terrible way to measure a CB, but I suppose is still better than nothing), Bailey was a better player than Green. In terms of how the rest of the league regards him (i.e. every young CB is "the next Champ Bailey" or "trying to unseat Champ Bailey"- two phrases you never really heard about Darrell Green), Bailey was a better player than Green.Darrell Green was an awesome CB and a richly deserving HoFer, but Champ Bailey was a better CB. It really sucks that Bailey was jobbed out of the DPoY award in 2006, or else I doubt this would even be a debate.
CaptainHook
Footballguy
CB is one of the positions where conventional stats are completely useless but...
how about the 2006 season, where Bailey led the league in INTs despite being the least-targeted starting CB in the NFL, all while not giving up a TD and finishing as the second-leading tackler on the team
this is just unreal. that season would seriously be in contention for the best season of any player at any position of all time if such a comparison was remotely possible.
hall of fame lock. i cant wait until we start getting offered a better view on TV so we can actually watch the most interesting and impressive parts of football.
how about the 2006 season, where Bailey led the league in INTs despite being the least-targeted starting CB in the NFL, all while not giving up a TD and finishing as the second-leading tackler on the team
this is just unreal. that season would seriously be in contention for the best season of any player at any position of all time if such a comparison was remotely possible.
hall of fame lock. i cant wait until we start getting offered a better view on TV so we can actually watch the most interesting and impressive parts of football.
Adebisi
Footballguy
Seriously? Bailey was a better cover CB than Deion?Some very... "interesting" opinions being thrown around in this thread.
Adebisi
Footballguy
I'm not sure that's a play you want to bring up. As great and as clutch as that pick was, Bailey pulled up inside the 5, Watson caught him, and Bailey ended up fumbling the ball out of bounds inside the 1. Replays are somewhat inconclusive, but he may very well have fumbled out of the endzone (for the record, this isn't a Patriots fan complaining; Denver deserved to win that game). If Bailey had hussled all the way down the field, he would have scored easily. It was, quite simply, extremely irresponsible.
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Adebisi
Footballguy
I think you otherwise make some very good points in this post, but by giving us the per-game stats, you also seem to be penalizing Green for playing well past what would be considered his prime. Since Bailey has played 11 years in the league, if you want to talk per-game averages, I think it would be more valid to compare Champ's career per-game stats to the per-game stats of the first 11 seasons of Green's career. Same for "X number of Pro Bowls, All Pros, etc..." over his 20 year career. A better comparison would be to look at Green's accolades only over the first 11 seasons of his career.
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Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I think it's noncontroversial to say Bailey was better than a whole bunch of very good peers at CB, guys who were elite for a short period of very good for awhile (Sam Madison, Troy Vincent, Charles Woodson, Ty Law). And he's got some seasons to add to his resume. I think by the time he retires, he'll be a pretty obvious HOFer (but less obvious that someone like Cris Carter or Dermontti Dawson).
FWIW, I looked at P-F-R's top cornerbacks by career AV. Here they are (I also showed the team with which the player acquired the most AV and whether he's in the HOF):
FWIW, I looked at P-F-R's top cornerbacks by career AV. Here they are (I also showed the team with which the player acquired the most AV and whether he's in the HOF):
Code:
Corner AV tm hofRod Woodson 142 pit yesDeion Sanders 114 dal noWillie Brown 112 rai yesMel Renfro 112 dal yesMel Blount 111 pit yesHerb Adderley 111 gnb yesRonde Barber 110 tam noMike Haynes 109 nwe yesJimmy Johnson 108 sfo yesNight Train Lane 107 det yesLem Barney 105 det yesAeneas Williams 104 crd noDarrell Green 104 was yesChamp Bailey 101 den noLemar Parrish 100 cin noEric Allen 98 phi noRoger Wehrli 98 crd yesCornell Green 97 dal noLouis Wright 95 den noErich Barnes 95 nyg noKen Riley 92 cin noBobby Boyd 91 clt noAdebisi
Footballguy
I think you probably brought this up just to get a reaction, but how are Carter and Dawson obvious HOFers?
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I think when those guys retired, just about everyone assumed those guys would be in the HOF one day. I think every article about those two guys during the last season(s) of their careers, they were referred to as future HOFers. YMMV.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
I don't know how the AV is calculated in this case, but...it passes the face validity test for me, at least. Champ's a stud CB. To stake ground on the claim that he isn't close to being the best ever doesn't dismiss the fact that he has been a very capable corner in this league. Perhaps (maybe even probably) HOF worthy. But, absolutely positively not in the discussion of best ever.
IDrinkyourMilkshake
Footballguy
You need 80% to get inducted. Champ is falling short of that!!!
For the record, I wouldn't call Bailey a better cover CB than Deion, but I do think it's fair to bring up the fact that Bailey played in an era where the rules made it much tougher to cover WRs than Deion did.
Whether he let up or was caught from behind or not, that one play was essentially the difference between 13-10 New England and 17-6 Denver.
Sometimes I'm reminded how lucky we are that the Shark Pool doesn't elect HoFers. At other times, I'm reminded of how lucky we'd be if the Shark Pool elected HoFers (yeah, Charlie Joiner, I'm looking at you).
Out of curiousity, why is AV rating Ronde Barber and his 5 pro bowls/3 All Pros over Bailey and his 9 pro bowls/3 All Pros? Is it just because of how good Tampa's defense was? And if so, don't you think it should account for the presence of Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, and John Lynch before giving Ronde all that credit?For instance, in 2002, Champ Bailey made the pro bowl over Ronde Barber (they both played in the same conference), yet Barber earned 17 AV to Bailey's 11. I do think that Barber should be rewarded for playing on a good defense, but he didn't even make the pro bowl (and it's not like he was an unknown like Nnamdi Asomugha- Barber was a 1st team AP All Pro and a Pro Bowler in '01). That particular situation just seems a bit screwy to me.
Note: this isn't meant as an "AV IS TERRIBLE BCUZ EVERY1 NOS THAT BAILEY IS WAY BETTER THAN BARBER" post. I understand that "AV" stands for "APPROXIMATE value", and that a lot of the methodology is designed to counter things like reputation awards. I'm just wondering if perhaps it's over-rewarding playing on a great defense. If you're going to have a larger pie for defenders on great defenses, perhaps there should be a teammates consideration giving a smaller piece of that large pie to a player who played with great teammates than to a player who didn't.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
There are many individual season cases where player X will be better than (and have played better than) player Y but will have a lower AV score. So it's right to question what AV says, because it's not some magic number; the explanation can be found here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?page_id=518). AV tries to grade every player across every season across every position for the last 60 years; the tool you need to do something like that is not the same tool as you would choose to grade two CBs in the same season.As for the '02 season, Barber didn't make the Pro Bowl, but he was a second-team AP All-Pro, which is arguably more impressive. He had only two INTs, which I think explains why he didn't make the Pro Bowl. Brian Kelly had 8 INTs, which might be a sign that teams were throwing away from Barber. But the '02 Bucs were one of the greatest pass defenses (and just plain defenses) in NFL history. So yes, Barber gets a lot of credit for being on that team, and no one would deny that Barber was a big part of the Bucs' great defensive performance in '02.
Bailey made the Pro Bowl in '02, but received no all-pro recognition from the AP (or any other source). And the Redskins defense was significantly worse.
Now Barber received 10% of the Bucs' defensive AV points, which was fourth on the team behind Rice, Sapp and Brooks. Bailey received 11% of the Redskins' defensive AV points, tied with Lavar Arrington for most (who also made the Pro Bowl). Essentially, AV is saying that the '02 Bucs defense was insanely good. Part of the reason was that Sapp, Brooks and Rice were incredible, part was because Barber was very good, Lynch, Quarles and Spires were solid, etc. The '02 Redskins weren't that good; how much value can a cornerback accumulate on a mediocre defense that allows more points than average. AV, sort of like the NFL, makes players on good teams look better. If you put the greatest center of all-time on a team with Ryan Leaf at QB, that center just isn't going to make the offense that good. So AV, to the extent you want to use it to look at pure talent as opposed to production, will probably undervalue players on bad teams and overvalue players on good teams most of the time.
DesmondBishop
Footballguy
Totally agree, Champ was fantastic and a HOF'er no question (Voters are weird so not sure about 1st ballot) but Deion changed entire game plans, I have never heard a coach say they had to put in a game plan or change theirs because Champ was on that side of the field.
Two points to make regarding Bailey and Sanders as Cover CBs.
1) SSOG had it right when he mentioned that there was a difference in both the rules and the orientation of the offenses when the two players played.
2) "Coverage" involves several factors. One is how likely it is someone will intercept a pass. I think one reason Sanders was feared so much was because of what he did once the ball was in his hands; not sure whether the return ability figures into who is the better cover back. Although related, this is not the same as how well the CB denies the receiver the ball, either by disrupting patterns or playing the ball in the air, etc.
I like how Bailey denies receivers the ball. I like what Sanders did with it once he had it.
1) SSOG had it right when he mentioned that there was a difference in both the rules and the orientation of the offenses when the two players played.
2) "Coverage" involves several factors. One is how likely it is someone will intercept a pass. I think one reason Sanders was feared so much was because of what he did once the ball was in his hands; not sure whether the return ability figures into who is the better cover back. Although related, this is not the same as how well the CB denies the receiver the ball, either by disrupting patterns or playing the ball in the air, etc.
I like how Bailey denies receivers the ball. I like what Sanders did with it once he had it.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
BusterTBronco said:
You cannot be serious.
Whether you've heard a coach say that they put in a different game plan or not, coaches *DID* put in a different game plan because of Bailey. Even after the 2007 season, in which Bailey was playing well below his '05-'06 levels, offensive coordinators avoided Champ. Check out this piece by Football Outsiders:"The Pats may have avoided Antonio Cromartie in the AFC Championship game, but over the whole season, evidence is pretty strong that the only cornerbacks who actually scare quarterbacks away are Asomugha and Bailey. Those are my All-Pro corners."
In 2005, teams weren't really afraid of Bailey yet, but in 2006, he got the full Nnamdi treatment. Bill Belichick (one of the smarter coaches in the league, I'm sure you'd agree) drew up a game plan that didn't involve Brady targeting Bailey a single time all game. On Monday through Saturday, all teams talked about was how they weren't going to be afraid of Bailey... and on Sunday, all they did was avoid Bailey. He most certainly changed game plans.
And remember, too, that this is against much tougher pass coverage rules than Deion had to contend with. Also, I feel the need to point out that Bailey covered a wider array of passcatchers than Deion did. He went 1-on-1 against the Randy Mosses and Marvin Harrisons of the world, yeah... but he also went 1-on-1 against both Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez back when Denver was the only team in the league that was shutting down Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez (seriously, look at their game logs against Denver in the 3-4 years after Denver acquired Bailey). Deion was one of the greatest cover guys of all time, and his coverage peak certainly lasted longer than Bailey's, but I would LOVE to see him try to cover Tony Gonzalez 1-on-1 in the end zone against today's rules.
