Cleveland Browns (6 Viewers)

[wadegarrett]

Jimmy Haslam, minority owner of Steelers, appears to be buyer.

Is this the 81 year old Jimmy Haslam or his son, James (Jimmy) Haslam? The son is the one who has the minority stake in the Steelers.

Apparently the son.

 

[Bobcat10]

It's jimmy III...the 55 yr old

 

[gandalas]

I don't know if I would like having an owner who is buddy-buddy with the owner of the Steelers. Just seems wrong to me.

Not to mention, this guy's family has HUGE ties to Tennessee area (Dad is multi-million dollar donator to UofTenn, Brother is Governor of Tennessee). What ties does this guy have to Ohio?

 

[Bobcat10]

I have no issues with Gilbert owning the Cavs. If fully committed, financially sound, and don't move team what else could u want? I doubt Lerner makes a questionable sale.

 

[wadegarrett]

I have no issues with Gilbert owning the Cavs. If fully committed, financially sound, and don't move team what else could u want? I doubt Lerner makes a questionable sale.

agree

 

[MAC_32]

YES! SELL! SEEEEELLLLLL!

 

[Captain Quinoa]

I don't know if I would like having an owner who is buddy-buddy with the owner of the Steelers. Just seems wrong to me.Not to mention, this guy's family has HUGE ties to Tennessee area (Dad is multi-million dollar donator to UofTenn, Brother is Governor of Tennessee). What ties does this guy have to Ohio?

who cares. if the guy demands results and accountability that's all I care about. Lerner is just not a leader.

 

[amnesiac]

if this results in another house cleaning a lot of fans are going to be very frustrated.

 

[Peak]

if this results in another house cleaning a lot of fans are going to be very frustrated.

Following a sale comes a house-cleaning of sorts. There are rumors on PFT that Banner (former Eagles owner) is part of the group led by Haslam. If true, I'd like to think it means no house-cleaning and we keep moving forward with what we have in place now.

 

[MAC_32]

if this results in another house cleaning a lot of fans are going to be very frustrated.

Following a sale comes a house-cleaning of sorts. There are rumors on PFT that Banner (former Eagles owner) is part of the group led by Haslam. If true, I'd like to think it means no house-cleaning and we keep moving forward with what we have in place now.

In most cases a house cleaning would be in order, but I don't think it will necessarily be the case here. I think Randy's wanted out for a while, but felt obligated to stick it out due to his family ties. I don't think he'd sell to someone wanting to blow it up, unless it were painfully obvious that it needed to. While he's clueless when it comes to football and an awful owner, I think his heart is and always has been in it.I think ownership has been the problem since Al went and everything going on wrong below has been a domino effect, so him getting out of the way is the best thing to happen to this franchise since it Al died.

 

[Bobcat10]

Holmgren might be the casualty here after the season but they'll let him publicly go out on his terms.....Holmgren might even be happy with that arrangement.

 

[beer 302]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/27/cleveland-mayor-chimes-in-on-fears-of-browns-move/

What's wrong with that picture?

Only in Cleveland!!!

 

[daveR]

if this results in another house cleaning a lot of fans are going to be very frustrated.

Following a sale comes a house-cleaning of sorts. There are rumors on PFT that Banner (former Eagles owner) is part of the group led by Haslam. If true, I'd like to think it means no house-cleaning and we keep moving forward with what we have in place now.

In most cases a house cleaning would be in order, but I don't think it will necessarily be the case here. I think Randy's wanted out for a while, but felt obligated to stick it out due to his family ties. I don't think he'd sell to someone wanting to blow it up, unless it were painfully obvious that it needed to. While he's clueless when it comes to football and an awful owner, I think his heart is and always has been in it.I think ownership has been the problem since Al went and everything going on wrong below has been a domino effect, so him getting out of the way is the best thing to happen to this franchise since it Al died.

Are you saying you liked Al as an owner?

 

[wadegarrett]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/27/cleveland-mayor-chimes-in-on-fears-of-browns-move/What's wrong with that picture? Only in Cleveland!!!

I don't get it.

 

[MAC_32]

if this results in another house cleaning a lot of fans are going to be very frustrated.

Following a sale comes a house-cleaning of sorts. There are rumors on PFT that Banner (former Eagles owner) is part of the group led by Haslam. If true, I'd like to think it means no house-cleaning and we keep moving forward with what we have in place now.

In most cases a house cleaning would be in order, but I don't think it will necessarily be the case here. I think Randy's wanted out for a while, but felt obligated to stick it out due to his family ties. I don't think he'd sell to someone wanting to blow it up, unless it were painfully obvious that it needed to. While he's clueless when it comes to football and an awful owner, I think his heart is and always has been in it.I think ownership has been the problem since Al went and everything going on wrong below has been a domino effect, so him getting out of the way is the best thing to happen to this franchise since it Al died.

Are you saying you liked Al as an owner?

Relative to Randy? Yes. A lot.

 

[nxmehta]

Here's what we know about Randy Lerner:

1. He's from Cleveland.

2. He will never move this team, ever.

3. He has an open checkbook.

4. We've lost a ####load of games under his watch.

Here's what we know about Jimmy Haslam, from Tennessee:

JACK ####

I don't know how anyone could be excited about this move right now. How do we know that this guy would in any shape or form be better than Lerner? We could be turning into the Bengals financially for all we know.

People are excited because they don't like Randy Lerner. This guy COULD BE WORSE

 

[nxmehta]

I just realized, THIS is why Holmgren and Heckert are in WIN NOW mode. They knew that a new owner would be coming in. This guy is going to clean house unless we win some games this year.

I'm betting that if we don't win 7 or 8 games, they're gone. And then we've got another 3 or so years until we're competitive again.

 

[MAC_32]

Sounds like Holmgren may be out.

 

[daveR]

if this results in another house cleaning a lot of fans are going to be very frustrated.

Following a sale comes a house-cleaning of sorts. There are rumors on PFT that Banner (former Eagles owner) is part of the group led by Haslam. If true, I'd like to think it means no house-cleaning and we keep moving forward with what we have in place now.

In most cases a house cleaning would be in order, but I don't think it will necessarily be the case here. I think Randy's wanted out for a while, but felt obligated to stick it out due to his family ties. I don't think he'd sell to someone wanting to blow it up, unless it were painfully obvious that it needed to. While he's clueless when it comes to football and an awful owner, I think his heart is and always has been in it.I think ownership has been the problem since Al went and everything going on wrong below has been a domino effect, so him getting out of the way is the best thing to happen to this franchise since it Al died.

Are you saying you liked Al as an owner?

Relative to Randy? Yes. A lot.

What made Al a good owner?

 

[MAC_32]

What made Al a good owner?

Not living in Cleveland, I didn't have as much info about the team as I do now, so I can't really answer that question. I know he brought the team back and had the team going in the right direction, despite my distaste for Butch Davis and a raw deal dealt by the league, then upon his death the foundation started to crumble and I think it was attributable to Randy. I never liked Butch and thought his GM'ing was poor, but the team was improving until Randy put Butch on notice when he least suspected it and you saw his performance dwindle thereafter. Signs of a weak leader? Yea, a bit. It also led to a series of short sighted decision making from Randy who's never showed he has a clue what he's doing. His lack of patience and itchy trigger finger has been the team's biggest problem since he took the job and it's had a ripple effect throughout the organization.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

This guy COULD BE WORSE

not really

 

[daveR]

What made Al a good owner?

Not living in Cleveland, I didn't have as much info about the team as I do now, so I can't really answer that question. I know he brought the team back and had the team going in the right direction, despite my distaste for Butch Davis and a raw deal dealt by the league, then upon his death the foundation started to crumble and I think it was attributable to Randy. I never liked Butch and thought his GM'ing was poor, but the team was improving until Randy put Butch on notice when he least suspected it and you saw his performance dwindle thereafter. Signs of a weak leader? Yea, a bit. It also led to a series of short sighted decision making from Randy who's never showed he has a clue what he's doing. His lack of patience and itchy trigger finger has been the team's biggest problem since he took the job and it's had a ripple effect throughout the organization.

RE: "itchy trigger finger"... You're okay with Holmgren, et al, staying? Or do you want more of that itchiness?I like the fact that Randy has admitted that he's not the best guy to run things and he went out & found the best he could to take over. FWIW, who was the last owner you approved of? Who was the last coach?

 

[MAC_32]

What made Al a good owner?

Not living in Cleveland, I didn't have as much info about the team as I do now, so I can't really answer that question. I know he brought the team back and had the team going in the right direction, despite my distaste for Butch Davis and a raw deal dealt by the league, then upon his death the foundation started to crumble and I think it was attributable to Randy. I never liked Butch and thought his GM'ing was poor, but the team was improving until Randy put Butch on notice when he least suspected it and you saw his performance dwindle thereafter. Signs of a weak leader? Yea, a bit. It also led to a series of short sighted decision making from Randy who's never showed he has a clue what he's doing. His lack of patience and itchy trigger finger has been the team's biggest problem since he took the job and it's had a ripple effect throughout the organization.

RE: "itchy trigger finger"... You're okay with Holmgren, et al, staying? Or do you want more of that itchiness?I like the fact that Randy has admitted that he's not the best guy to run things and he went out & found the best he could to take over. FWIW, who was the last owner you approved of? Who was the last coach?

I'm sure you know the answer to #1 as you and I have gone back and forth before. I think Holmgren has done a lousy job since he got here. I think Heckertt has done a decent job with the draft, but his distaste for anything free agent is keeping the team behind the curve. Shurmur's rookie season was the worst one I've ever seen. I'd have no qualms with Holmgren and Shurmur gone, but want Heckert to stick around. He needs someone around him to understand the value in key free agents though.Randy hasn't ever wanted to run this team, I'm good with him realizing this and going hands off as it's the best of the poor decisions he could make, but it still doesn't put the team in a good situation. An active, involved owner only helps the franchise, we've always suffered because of that. When he has gotten involved it's been with short sighted decisions. Selling the team is the first good decision he's made.I'm 29, I don't remember anything before Kosar. As far as I know we have had 2 lousy owners and Al Lerner. We've had nothing but awful coaches and GM's, including Bellichik - who was not ready when he coached here. GM's? Policy sucked, Butch sucked, Savage sucked, Kokinis was invisible, Heckertt's the best since the team came back by country miles. Coaches? Palmer sucked, Butch was fine (but his aful GM'ing ruined him), Romeo sucked, Mangini was a trainwreck, and Shurmur's been worse.

 

[amnesiac]

i actually agree with bgp when he states that blowing this thing up every 2-3 years is really screwing this franchise over.

if they decide to do it again after this season i really don't know if there is any point in following this franchise anymore.

 

[Bobcat10]

i actually agree with bgp when he states that blowing this thing up every 2-3 years is really screwing this franchise over.

I think a lot of people agree with that. He's not exactly inventing the wheel there. Stability is easily a top 3 or 5 reason we've gone thru what we have. In the current case, I think if Heckert stays (did he work under Banner in Phi?) we'll be ok. That said, do any of us truly believe that if Shurm coaches as he did last year he should be coaching this team in 2013?

 

[nxmehta]

i actually agree with bgp when he states that blowing this thing up every 2-3 years is really screwing this franchise over.

I think a lot of people agree with that. He's not exactly inventing the wheel there. Stability is easily a top 3 or 5 reason we've gone thru what we have. In the current case, I think if Heckert stays (did he work under Banner in Phi?) we'll be ok. That said, do any of us truly believe that if Shurm coaches as he did last year he should be coaching this team in 2013?

Apparently both Shurmur and Heckert worked under Banner with the Eagles. So he would be a good option to replace Holmgren if we want stability.

 

[Fensalk]

Has anyone done an analysis of new ownerships taking control of an NFL team, and what kind of changes they made in the first year or two? Would be interesting to see, even if I'm unsure of how much weight to give it.

 

[Fensalk]

Interesting comment here from a player:

http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=2291

The jolting news no doubt affects the players the least. One player told me, “Probably half the room has never met Randy Lerner.”

But any owner that invests $1 billion or so in a football team eventually will want to build his own organization. And that perhaps is why Shurmur sounded a little too ornery for the first day of a new season laden – locally, at least – with optimism.

News reports already have named long-time NFL executives Joe Banner (Eagles) and Bill Polian (Colts) as possible executives coming aboard with Haslam. Mike Holmgren, who was hand-picked by Lerner to represent him in every facet of the team, sounded Friday as if his term as president is coming to an end.

So that uncertainty has to trickle down.

Tom Heckert, the Browns’ general manager, worked under Banner in Philadelphia for nine years. Shurmur himself had 10 years there with Banner. So there is some reason to expect some continuity.

But for a coach coming off a 4-12 season – and with national expectations of not much improvement with a rookie-laden lineup – the pressure just got turned up a notch.

When Holmgren made Shurmur a surprise hire in 2011, he said it would be the last coach he hired. One way or another, that surely looks to be on the mark.

 

[daveR]

What made Al a good owner?

Not living in Cleveland, I didn't have as much info about the team as I do now, so I can't really answer that question. I know he brought the team back and had the team going in the right direction, despite my distaste for Butch Davis and a raw deal dealt by the league, then upon his death the foundation started to crumble and I think it was attributable to Randy. I never liked Butch and thought his GM'ing was poor, but the team was improving until Randy put Butch on notice when he least suspected it and you saw his performance dwindle thereafter. Signs of a weak leader? Yea, a bit. It also led to a series of short sighted decision making from Randy who's never showed he has a clue what he's doing. His lack of patience and itchy trigger finger has been the team's biggest problem since he took the job and it's had a ripple effect throughout the organization.

RE: "itchy trigger finger"... You're okay with Holmgren, et al, staying? Or do you want more of that itchiness?I like the fact that Randy has admitted that he's not the best guy to run things and he went out & found the best he could to take over. FWIW, who was the last owner you approved of? Who was the last coach?

I'm sure you know the answer to #1 as you and I have gone back and forth before. I think Holmgren has done a lousy job since he got here. I think Heckertt has done a decent job with the draft, but his distaste for anything free agent is keeping the team behind the curve. Shurmur's rookie season was the worst one I've ever seen. I'd have no qualms with Holmgren and Shurmur gone, but want Heckert to stick around. He needs someone around him to understand the value in key free agents though.Randy hasn't ever wanted to run this team, I'm good with him realizing this and going hands off as it's the best of the poor decisions he could make, but it still doesn't put the team in a good situation. An active, involved owner only helps the franchise, we've always suffered because of that. When he has gotten involved it's been with short sighted decisions. Selling the team is the first good decision he's made.I'm 29, I don't remember anything before Kosar. As far as I know we have had 2 lousy owners and Al Lerner. We've had nothing but awful coaches and GM's, including Bellichik - who was not ready when he coached here. GM's? Policy sucked, Butch sucked, Savage sucked, Kokinis was invisible, Heckertt's the best since the team came back by country miles. Coaches? Palmer sucked, Butch was fine (but his aful GM'ing ruined him), Romeo sucked, Mangini was a trainwreck, and Shurmur's been worse.

Okay. You're 29, so your adult life is just about to begin. This isn't a knock, just a fact of life you'll look back on some day. Still, it's obvious that you don't like anybody. Everybody "sucked" or was a "train wreck". Some time ago, a friend of mine was complaining about the Indians' manager. Then he complained about Mike Brown (Cavs). I asked him who he liked. He said Ken Aspromonte (Indians manager from the 70's). It's a mindset. People get used to complaining.The thing I like best is, "We need someone who demands results". What a joke! Demanding results is whining with a revolving door. (Sounds like today's GOP presidential campaign.) Making noise doesn't solve problems.

 

[Fensalk]

Belichick did good with what he had to work with in Cleveland. When he took over, the team was very old, slow, and needed a complete roster turnover. Throughout that process he was winning 6 or 7 games. Then in 94 the team broke through and had the best defense in the NFL. They were on the right track but in 1995, Modell announced the move and the team fell apart. Had the move never happened, Belichick probably wins multiple Super Bowls in Cleveland.

What would have been really interesting was Belichick's rising trajectory with the Browns probably would have ran smack into Elway's Broncos resurgence in Denver, leading to probably a couple more Browns-Broncos AFC title games. Maybe the Browns break through in 1998 and beat the Falcons that year.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Great stat, since the infamous Metcalf game in '93 the Browns are 4-29 vs. the Steelers.

 

[Fensalk]

The key to winning in the NFL is either

1. Get a franchise QB.

or

2. Run the football like crazy.

A lot of coaches don't understand this. The only coach we ever had after 1999 that did understand it was Butch Davis. But his teams were horribly devastated by injuries after the wild card season. That just wasn't meant to be.

I did want them to hire Schottenheimer when they picked Mangini. Schottenheimer gets it. If Schottenheimer took over this team, he would pound the living hell out of opponents with Trent Richardson. Passing would be an afterthought. And the Browns would be relevant again. If Vermeil took over this team, he'd do the exact same thing. So would Gibbs.

Screw you and your "oh this is a passing league". We're running it down your throats. Try and stop us.

Shurmur is probably going to use Richardson as a decoy and try to win with Weeden's arm.

 

[Fensalk]

I guess it finally makes sense why Holmgren never took the head coaching job, preferring to stay GM and hire someone else. He knew the team was for sale. That just sucks.

 

[beer 302]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/27/cleveland-mayor-chimes-in-on-fears-of-browns-move/What's wrong with that picture? Only in Cleveland!!!

I don't get it.

That's Michael Stanley in the picture, not the Mayor

Great stat, since the infamous Metcalf game in '93 the Browns are 4-29 vs. the Steelers.

huh, they won that many? Seriously thought it was less.From what I heard yesterday Holmgren is gone after this year or maybe even during, Heckert is probably gone but I'd put that at about 60/40 right now depending on how the season plays out and Shurmur is good for at least another year unless they just totally get worse than last year which means he probably wouldn't finish the season.As for Jimmy Haslam, they did a fair amount of trying to establish who he is yesterday on KNR and it sounds like this is a football guy that will be all in. He will be involved, make the major decisions but won't be a Jerry Jones. IMO as much as Lerner tried to do right by the Browns he was at best disinterested. He did put a stipulation in the agreement that the Browns could not be moved after the sale which I suspect could be gotten around and was just a hat tip to the fans but I think he genuinely wanted to do right he just isn't a football guy. I'm excited to see where the team goes from here, really looking forward to this season

 

[daveR]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/27/cleveland-mayor-chimes-in-on-fears-of-browns-move/What's wrong with that picture? Only in Cleveland!!!

I don't get it.

That's Michael Stanley in the picture, not the Mayor

Great stat, since the infamous Metcalf game in '93 the Browns are 4-29 vs. the Steelers.

huh, they won that many? Seriously thought it was less.From what I heard yesterday Holmgren is gone after this year or maybe even during, Heckert is probably gone but I'd put that at about 60/40 right now depending on how the season plays out and Shurmur is good for at least another year unless they just totally get worse than last year which means he probably wouldn't finish the season.As for Jimmy Haslam, they did a fair amount of trying to establish who he is yesterday on KNR and it sounds like this is a football guy that will be all in. He will be involved, make the major decisions but won't be a Jerry Jones. IMO as much as Lerner tried to do right by the Browns he was at best disinterested. He did put a stipulation in the agreement that the Browns could not be moved after the sale which I suspect could be gotten around and was just a hat tip to the fans but I think he genuinely wanted to do right he just isn't a football guy. I'm excited to see where the team goes from here, really looking forward to this season

They must have changed the picture. That link leads to a pic of the mayor.I can't see how rebuilding, yet again, is a good thing when it looks like real progress is being made right now.

 

[Lrbutler]

In my mind, the sale might be a good thing for Browns Nation. Because the team and fans mIght have an owner that will give a damn about the team, at least in the wins/lose area. This season should be fun!!!!!!

 

[MAC_32]

What made Al a good owner?

Not living in Cleveland, I didn't have as much info about the team as I do now, so I can't really answer that question. I know he brought the team back and had the team going in the right direction, despite my distaste for Butch Davis and a raw deal dealt by the league, then upon his death the foundation started to crumble and I think it was attributable to Randy. I never liked Butch and thought his GM'ing was poor, but the team was improving until Randy put Butch on notice when he least suspected it and you saw his performance dwindle thereafter. Signs of a weak leader? Yea, a bit. It also led to a series of short sighted decision making from Randy who's never showed he has a clue what he's doing. His lack of patience and itchy trigger finger has been the team's biggest problem since he took the job and it's had a ripple effect throughout the organization.

RE: "itchy trigger finger"... You're okay with Holmgren, et al, staying? Or do you want more of that itchiness?I like the fact that Randy has admitted that he's not the best guy to run things and he went out & found the best he could to take over. FWIW, who was the last owner you approved of? Who was the last coach?

I'm sure you know the answer to #1 as you and I have gone back and forth before. I think Holmgren has done a lousy job since he got here. I think Heckertt has done a decent job with the draft, but his distaste for anything free agent is keeping the team behind the curve. Shurmur's rookie season was the worst one I've ever seen. I'd have no qualms with Holmgren and Shurmur gone, but want Heckert to stick around. He needs someone around him to understand the value in key free agents though.Randy hasn't ever wanted to run this team, I'm good with him realizing this and going hands off as it's the best of the poor decisions he could make, but it still doesn't put the team in a good situation. An active, involved owner only helps the franchise, we've always suffered because of that. When he has gotten involved it's been with short sighted decisions. Selling the team is the first good decision he's made.I'm 29, I don't remember anything before Kosar. As far as I know we have had 2 lousy owners and Al Lerner. We've had nothing but awful coaches and GM's, including Bellichik - who was not ready when he coached here. GM's? Policy sucked, Butch sucked, Savage sucked, Kokinis was invisible, Heckertt's the best since the team came back by country miles. Coaches? Palmer sucked, Butch was fine (but his aful GM'ing ruined him), Romeo sucked, Mangini was a trainwreck, and Shurmur's been worse.

Okay. You're 29, so your adult life is just about to begin. This isn't a knock, just a fact of life you'll look back on some day. Still, it's obvious that you don't like anybody. Everybody "sucked" or was a "train wreck". Some time ago, a friend of mine was complaining about the Indians' manager. Then he complained about Mike Brown (Cavs). I asked him who he liked. He said Ken Aspromonte (Indians manager from the 70's). It's a mindset. People get used to complaining.The thing I like best is, "We need someone who demands results". What a joke! Demanding results is whining with a revolving door. (Sounds like today's GOP presidential campaign.) Making noise doesn't solve problems.

I'm a die hard Michigan football fan. The only person I have actively despised during his tenure was Rich Rod, I didn't watch a lot of his last season because I just wanted it to end. Unfortunately my dream hire, Harbaugh, did so well he got a job in the pros instead of coming home. Quality consolation prize in Hoke though, and no I didn't groan at the hire like some did. I don't like losing and poor management, usually the 2nd leads to a lot of the 1st, and I've seen a lot of that with the Browns, especially since Randy has taken over. I'm not right about everything, but I think I'm right more than I'm wrong and this regime has rubbed a lot more wrong than right since they got here. They have taken a lot longer to adjust to some things fans, myself included, could have told them months before they realized. Mangini, letting Shurmur go OC-less, trading up for a crippled Hardesty, Robiskie, Mo Mass, the revolving door at right tackle, front 7 depth, OL depth, not trying to retain Sealy, Cribbs is a ST'er not a WR, drafting of Colt, etc. Now it's Sheldon Brown, Shurmur, reaching/panicking on Weeden, and still the depth issue in the front 7, I understand they can't draft all of the replacements right now but they can be more active in free agency finding short term darts and they choose not to. Thankfully they did realize Mo Mass wasn't an answer and put that bid in for Gordon.I don't expect every regime to make perfect decisions, but I expect them to make more good ones than this one has. This one has been better than previous ones, but that's only because the last ones have been so awful that they almost couldn't do worse. I am hopeful that a regime headed by Heckert alone would be more effective though, as long as there's someone in his ear about being more active in free agency.

 

[MAC_32]

Belichick did good with what he had to work with in Cleveland. When he took over, the team was very old, slow, and needed a complete roster turnover. Throughout that process he was winning 6 or 7 games. Then in 94 the team broke through and had the best defense in the NFL. They were on the right track but in 1995, Modell announced the move and the team fell apart. Had the move never happened, Belichick probably wins multiple Super Bowls in Cleveland.What would have been really interesting was Belichick's rising trajectory with the Browns probably would have ran smack into Elway's Broncos resurgence in Denver, leading to probably a couple more Browns-Broncos AFC title games. Maybe the Browns break through in 1998 and beat the Falcons that year.

Ugh. I understand when non Browns fans defend Bellichik, I don't expect them to know of everything that happened here. I expect better from Browns fans though.Bellichik buried his own grave here and was correctly shown the door, he did a tremendous job adjusting and learning from his mistakes after he left here and was given a 2nd chance.

 

[Fensalk]

Belichick did good with what he had to work with in Cleveland. When he took over, the team was very old, slow, and needed a complete roster turnover. Throughout that process he was winning 6 or 7 games. Then in 94 the team broke through and had the best defense in the NFL. They were on the right track but in 1995, Modell announced the move and the team fell apart. Had the move never happened, Belichick probably wins multiple Super Bowls in Cleveland.What would have been really interesting was Belichick's rising trajectory with the Browns probably would have ran smack into Elway's Broncos resurgence in Denver, leading to probably a couple more Browns-Broncos AFC title games. Maybe the Browns break through in 1998 and beat the Falcons that year.

Ugh. I understand when non Browns fans defend Bellichik, I don't expect them to know of everything that happened here. I expect better from Browns fans though.Bellichik buried his own grave here and was correctly shown the door, he did a tremendous job adjusting and learning from his mistakes after he left here and was given a 2nd chance.

No. Belichick had successfully turned the team the team around. The players quit once it learned of the move. They went 11-5 in 1994. They opened 4-1 in 1995. They went from that to getting blown out by almost everyone because they had their heart ripped out. It was a very emotional time.

 

[daveR]

Such is the life of a cynic. Let me show you...

I don't like losing and poor management, usually the 2nd leads to a lot of the 1st, and I've seen a lot of that with the Browns, especially since Randy has taken over. What's the solution? IMO, get a football guy to run the football team.which is what they did.

I'm not right about everything, but I think I'm right more than I'm wrong and this regime has rubbed a lot more wrong than right since they got here. They have taken a lot longer to adjust to some things fans, myself included, could have told them months before they realized. You assume they are blind. Perhaps there are reasons for what they do that you & I are unaware of.

Mangini, Mangini brought some things to the table. He just wasn't a WCO, 4-3 D guy.

letting Shurmur go OC-less, The OC they were after wasn't available.

trading up for a crippled Hardesty, Hardesty wasn't crippled (this is how cunics make their points) In fact, the knee he hurt in Cleveland had never been injured prior.

Robiskie, Mo Mass, Mangini's fault.

the revolving door at right tackle, the stats on Pashos show he was a good pass protector when healthy.

front 7 depth, They just drafted 4 guys and added 2 FAs. They had 10 LBs going into last season & drafted 2 DL high.

OL depth, The depth they had (in Womack & Yates) disappeared when they couldn't negotiate during the lockout.

not trying to retain Sealy, Yep. I remember them saying, "This guy sux. Let's dump him."

Cribbs is a ST'er not a WR, Right. It's really stupid to have guys who can play more than one position!

drafting of Colt, etc. Yep. That was a seriously bad move. They spent a 3 on a guy who won more college games than anybody else, a guy who completed 70% of his passes, a 4-year starter. We already had Delhomme!

Now it's Sheldon Brown, Sheldon Brown has good stats at CB, but he's the popular whipping boy in the d backfield.

Shurmur, Yep. This guy is horrible -- knows absolutely nothing. Face it. We don't know yet. Have you met him? I love the fact that people presume to judge him by "the look on his face".

reaching/panicking on Weeden, Really? Weeden sucks, too? Already????

and still the depth issue in the front 7, A good portion of the last two drafts went for this plus a couple FAs.

I understand they can't draft all of the replacements right now but they can be more active in free agency finding short term darts and they choose not to. Thankfully they did realize Mo Mass wasn't an answer and put that bid in for Gordon.

 

[MAC_32]

Such is the life of a cynic. Let me show you...

I don't like losing and poor management, usually the 2nd leads to a lot of the 1st, and I've seen a lot of that with the Browns, especially since Randy has taken over. What's the solution? IMO, get a football guy to run the football team.which is what they did. The solution is to get good management

I'm not right about everything, but I think I'm right more than I'm wrong and this regime has rubbed a lot more wrong than right since they got here. They have taken a lot longer to adjust to some things fans, myself included, could have told them months before they realized. You assume they are blind. Perhaps there are reasons for what they do that you & I are unaware of. they're not blind, they're stubborn and have tunnel vision for their plan, good management looks outside their comfort zone

Mangini, Mangini brought some things to the table. He just wasn't a WCO, 4-3 D guy. He was a fit for what Holmgren envisioned, this was not going to work. It was a wasted year that Holmgren has since admitted to. It lends credence to my whole basis of what's wrong with this regime, they take too long to adjust.

letting Shurmur go OC-less, The OC they were after wasn't available. The appropriate decision wasn't to go OC-less just because the guy they wanted wasn't available, a rookie coach pulling double duty was a recipe for disaster

trading up for a crippled Hardesty, Hardesty wasn't crippled (this is how cunics make their points) In fact, the knee he hurt in Cleveland had never been injured prior. Many injuries are due to over compensation, Hardesty's a classic case of it. He was injured when drafted and has never been healthy. I'm all for gambles, but trading up and sacrificing an extra pick (for a regime that doesn't value free agents) was illogical.

Robiskie, Mo Mass, Mangini's fault. and the current regime, Robo was in last year's plans and never should've been, if Gordon hadn't entered the supp draft Mass would have been a starter this year. It's clear he can't do it. Again, late to adjust.

the revolving door at right tackle, the stats on Pashos show he was a good pass protector when healthy. My eyes say right tackle has been a revolving door for the better part of a decade, Pashos was no exception

front 7 depth, They just drafted 4 guys and added 2 FAs. They had 10 LBs going into last season & drafted 2 DL high. draft, draft, draft - this was the first year they brought in free agents. At a desperately thin position you can't rely on kids to man the position and it showed in the 4th quarter throughout last year

OL depth, The depth they had (in Womack & Yates) disappeared when they couldn't negotiate during the lockout. then pick up a couple of free agents post lockout, not waiver wire cuts off the scrap heap in September. It's better this year, but it's still thin in key spots.

not trying to retain Sealy, Yep. I remember them saying, "This guy sux. Let's dump him." Use the search function, I'm sure I made a post about not retaining him, I thought it would come back and bite us and our special teams performances last year support that

Cribbs is a ST'er not a WR, Right. It's really stupid to have guys who can play more than one position! Devin Hester syndrome, if a guy is great at something don't stretch him too thin. He was a special ST'er and has become ordinary because he wasked to take on too much

drafting of Colt, etc. Yep. That was a seriously bad move. They spent a 3 on a guy who won more college games than anybody else, a guy who completed 70% of his passes, a 4-year starter. We already had Delhomme! we lost 2 years in large part because of that pick, that's what happens when you miss on a QB

Now it's Sheldon Brown, Sheldon Brown has good stats at CB, but he's the popular whipping boy in the d backfield. he can't play outside anymore and because the position was not addressed he may be out there against unless draft picks step up, late to adjust - again

Shurmur, Yep. This guy is horrible -- knows absolutely nothing. Face it. We don't know yet. Have you met him? I love the fact that people presume to judge him by "the look on his face". last year's coaching performance was the worst I have ever seen and there's no argument suggesting otherwise

reaching/panicking on Weeden, Really? Weeden sucks, too? Already???? not yet but he's in a tough situation, it's a lot easier to walk away from middle round QB picks than early round QB's and Weeden wasn't going to be picked until Friday

and still the depth issue in the front 7, A good portion of the last two drafts went for this plus a couple FAs. again, drafts, you can't compete in this league with a bunch of kids - vets are needed and we're desperately thin with them

I understand they can't draft all of the replacements right now but they can be more active in free agency finding short term darts and they choose not to. Thankfully they did realize Mo Mass wasn't an answer and put that bid in for Gordon.

 

[daveR]

Such is the life of a cynic. Let me show you...

I don't like losing and poor management, usually the 2nd leads to a lot of the 1st, and I've seen a lot of that with the Browns, especially since Randy has taken over. What's the solution? IMO, get a football guy to run the football team.which is what they did. The solution is to get good management

I'm not right about everything, but I think I'm right more than I'm wrong and this regime has rubbed a lot more wrong than right since they got here. They have taken a lot longer to adjust to some things fans, myself included, could have told them months before they realized. You assume they are blind. Perhaps there are reasons for what they do that you & I are unaware of. they're not blind, they're stubborn and have tunnel vision for their plan, good management looks outside their comfort zone

Mangini, Mangini brought some things to the table. He just wasn't a WCO, 4-3 D guy. He was a fit for what Holmgren envisioned, this was not going to work. It was a wasted year that Holmgren has since admitted to. It lends credence to my whole basis of what's wrong with this regime, they take too long to adjust.

letting Shurmur go OC-less, The OC they were after wasn't available. The appropriate decision wasn't to go OC-less just because the guy they wanted wasn't available, a rookie coach pulling double duty was a recipe for disaster

trading up for a crippled Hardesty, Hardesty wasn't crippled (this is how cunics make their points) In fact, the knee he hurt in Cleveland had never been injured prior. Many injuries are due to over compensation, Hardesty's a classic case of it. He was injured when drafted and has never been healthy. I'm all for gambles, but trading up and sacrificing an extra pick (for a regime that doesn't value free agents) was illogical.

Robiskie, Mo Mass, Mangini's fault. and the current regime, Robo was in last year's plans and never should've been, if Gordon hadn't entered the supp draft Mass would have been a starter this year. It's clear he can't do it. Again, late to adjust.

the revolving door at right tackle, the stats on Pashos show he was a good pass protector when healthy. My eyes say right tackle has been a revolving door for the better part of a decade, Pashos was no exception

front 7 depth, They just drafted 4 guys and added 2 FAs. They had 10 LBs going into last season & drafted 2 DL high. draft, draft, draft - this was the first year they brought in free agents. At a desperately thin position you can't rely on kids to man the position and it showed in the 4th quarter throughout last year

OL depth, The depth they had (in Womack & Yates) disappeared when they couldn't negotiate during the lockout. then pick up a couple of free agents post lockout, not waiver wire cuts off the scrap heap in September. It's better this year, but it's still thin in key spots.

not trying to retain Sealy, Yep. I remember them saying, "This guy sux. Let's dump him." Use the search function, I'm sure I made a post about not retaining him, I thought it would come back and bite us and our special teams performances last year support that

Cribbs is a ST'er not a WR, Right. It's really stupid to have guys who can play more than one position! Devin Hester syndrome, if a guy is great at something don't stretch him too thin. He was a special ST'er and has become ordinary because he wasked to take on too much

drafting of Colt, etc. Yep. That was a seriously bad move. They spent a 3 on a guy who won more college games than anybody else, a guy who completed 70% of his passes, a 4-year starter. We already had Delhomme! we lost 2 years in large part because of that pick, that's what happens when you miss on a QB

Now it's Sheldon Brown, Sheldon Brown has good stats at CB, but he's the popular whipping boy in the d backfield. he can't play outside anymore and because the position was not addressed he may be out there against unless draft picks step up, late to adjust - again

Shurmur, Yep. This guy is horrible -- knows absolutely nothing. Face it. We don't know yet. Have you met him? I love the fact that people presume to judge him by "the look on his face". last year's coaching performance was the worst I have ever seen and there's no argument suggesting otherwise

reaching/panicking on Weeden, Really? Weeden sucks, too? Already???? not yet but he's in a tough situation, it's a lot easier to walk away from middle round QB picks than early round QB's and Weeden wasn't going to be picked until Friday

and still the depth issue in the front 7, A good portion of the last two drafts went for this plus a couple FAs. again, drafts, you can't compete in this league with a bunch of kids - vets are needed and we're desperately thin with them

I understand they can't draft all of the replacements right now but they can be more active in free agency finding short term darts and they choose not to. Thankfully they did realize Mo Mass wasn't an answer and put that bid in for Gordon.

In all sincerity, it's fun talking football! We come at it from different angles and may never agree on much, but please don't take my comments personally. Go Browns!

 

[MAC_32]

I don't and I agree. I just hope you're more right about this team than I am because the feeling I get from these guys' actions and the upcoming sale is going to lead to impatient decision making as the expectations feel too high for this year. They expect progress in W's and L's, but given the state of the offense this is a team built for 2013, not 2012. They've made their bed, now they must sleep in it and reap the consequences or benefits.

 

[Lrbutler]

Mac32 I agree with some of your thoughts. But come on man, you make it sound like the team has no hope of ever getting back to the glory days.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

No. Belichick had successfully turned the team the team around. The players quit once it learned of the move. They went 11-5 in 1994. They opened 4-1 in 1995. They went from that to getting blown out by almost everyone because they had their heart ripped out. It was a very emotional time.

They actually opened 3-1 and then lost 3 straight. They were 4-5 when Model made the announcement. As I remember, one of their biggest problems was that Pepper Johnson and Carl Banks got real old and slow between 1994 and 1995. Obviously you're right that Belichick got them to 11-5 in '94 which is a record they haven't matched since. Every time I hear Cleveland fans bashing a coach on the radio, I remember that they could be some of the same geniuses that thought Belichick was terrible.

 

[MAC_32]

Mac32 I agree with some of your thoughts. But come on man, you make it sound like the team has no hope of ever getting back to the glory days.

Ever? Not my intent, if these guys are right about Weeden and I'm wrong we could be back soon. Just not this year.My concern is the regime is evaluated too much on this season because I think it's going to be a long one. There is no experience at the offensive skill positions, there's going to be some exciting plays but a lot more L's than W's becuase it takes time to learn to make plays when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter. I see more mistakes than plays as they acllimate. If Shurmur is the scapegoat (and one of the coordinators is not the answer) then I won't shed a tear, this team is built to turn the corner in 2013 so if they're going to do it then it will be then. However, based on actions and words I'm getting the feeling this is a make or break season. If this ship is blown up at season's end if we go 4-12 again then we just wasted the last 5 years. A new regime is going to rip up all the building this regime has done. Granted their lack of urgency will be the ultimate blame, and I won't argue against that, but at this point we almost have to wait until the end of 2013 before doing anything drastic. There's just too much youth to expect us to stick around until December. Unless of course this season is a complete disaster. There needs to be progress, especially on offense, which I expect, but the call for more W's just doesn't seem reasonable.

 

[daveR]

Mac32 I agree with some of your thoughts. But come on man, you make it sound like the team has no hope of ever getting back to the glory days.

Ever? Not my intent, if these guys are right about Weeden and I'm wrong we could be back soon. Just not this year.My concern is the regime is evaluated too much on this season because I think it's going to be a long one. There is no experience at the offensive skill positions, there's going to be some exciting plays but a lot more L's than W's becuase it takes time to learn to make plays when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter. I see more mistakes than plays as they acllimate. If Shurmur is the scapegoat (and one of the coordinators is not the answer) then I won't shed a tear, this team is built to turn the corner in 2013 so if they're going to do it then it will be then. However, based on actions and words I'm getting the feeling this is a make or break season. If this ship is blown up at season's end if we go 4-12 again then we just wasted the last 5 years. A new regime is going to rip up all the building this regime has done. Granted their lack of urgency will be the ultimate blame, and I won't argue against that, but at this point we almost have to wait until the end of 2013 before doing anything drastic. There's just too much youth to expect us to stick around until December. Unless of course this season is a complete disaster. There needs to be progress, especially on offense, which I expect, but the call for more W's just doesn't seem reasonable.

Right. Young teams rarely make it far into the playoffs. Ultimately, you want a talented, veteran team. Given a choice, though, I'd much rather have a talented, young team than an mediocre, veteran team.

 

[Fensalk]

No. Belichick had successfully turned the team the team around. The players quit once it learned of the move. They went 11-5 in 1994. They opened 4-1 in 1995. They went from that to getting blown out by almost everyone because they had their heart ripped out. It was a very emotional time.

They actually opened 3-1 and then lost 3 straight. They were 4-5 when Model made the announcement. As I remember, one of their biggest problems was that Pepper Johnson and Carl Banks got real old and slow between 1994 and 1995. Obviously you're right that Belichick got them to 11-5 in '94 which is a record they haven't matched since. Every time I hear Cleveland fans bashing a coach on the radio, I remember that they could be some of the same geniuses that thought Belichick was terrible.

I don't think anyone believes the players found out about the move when Modell made the announcement. There were rumors swirling in that locker room for at least a few weeks prior. I remember there were public rumors at least 2 weeks prior to the announcement.

 

[Fensalk]

This feels like a lost season all the way around now. I can't help but think the new owner will want to put his stamp on the franchise, bring in all new management and coaches, and scrap what's going on now. Of course, the first rookie owner mistake is to want to do just that, but hold off for a year or two, to allow the current staff to prove themselves.

Ultimately it means it still happens, but instead of wasting our time in 2012, he wastes our time in 2012, 2013, and 2014.

If he's gonna do it, he should just do it and get it over with.

 

[beer 302]

Man there are some negative vibes in this thread and we're what? 3days into camp? Well done Browns fans, well done.

I'm gonna go play in traffic now