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Cliff Lee to Phils (1 Viewer)

wadegarrett

wadegarrett

FFA Legend™
Sources: Phils reach agreement for Indians' Lee

Ken Rosenthal

Foxsports.com

The Phillies are not getting Roy Halladay. But the pitcher they are getting just happens to be the reigning American League Cy Young award winner.

The Phillies have reached agreement on a trade that would bring them left-hander Cliff Lee and outfielder Ben Francisco from the Indians for Class A right-hander Jason Knapp, Class AAA right-hander Carlos Carrasco, shortstop Jason Donald and catcher Lou Marson, according to major-league sources.

The deal, which does not include any cash, is pending a review of medical records. If completed, it will be a coup for both the Phillies and Indians.

The Phillies would get Lee without giving up any of the three players the Blue Jays initially wanted for Halladay — left-hander J.A. Happ, right-hander Kyle Drabek and outfielder Dominic Brown.

Francisco would fill the Phillies' longstanding need for a right-handed hitter off the bench. Lee would give the Phillies four left-handed starters, along with Cole Hamels, J.A. Happ and Jamie Moyer. But Happ or Moyer could go to the bullpen once right-hander Pedro Martinez is ready to pitch in the majors.

The Indians, meanwhile, would get four of the Phillies' top 10 prospects according to Baseball America's pre-season rankings. Carrasco was rated second, Marson third, Donald fourth and Knapp 10th.

Carrasco was scratched from his start for the Class AAA Lehigh IronPigs on Wednesday, and Donald and Marson were not in the lineup. All could be ready for the majors by next season.

Knapp, who does not turn 19 until Aug. 31, is currently sidelined with shoulder stiffness, but one scout says his upside is greater than Drabek's, calling the 6-foot-5, 215-pound righty a "Halladay clone."

Lee won the AL's top pitching honor in 2008, going 22-3 with a 2.54 ERA and 170 strikeouts in 31 starts. He is 7-9 with a 3.14 ERA so far this season.
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As much as I would have like Halladay I'm glad the Phils didn't over pay. If they get Lee for what is mentioned I love the chances for a repeat :)

 
Is this just a ploy by Amaro to float this rumor and see if Ricciardi blinks and lowers the asking price?

 
Todd Zolecki is now saying that the Phils would also receive OF Ben Francisco as their RH bat off the bench.

 
12:42pm: Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi report that the sides have agreed to a deal that sends Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco to Philly for Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Lou Marson. The teams still have to examine medical records for the deal to go through.
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Phils are now the favorites in the NL.
 
trader jake said:
12:42pm: Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi report that the sides have agreed to a deal that sends Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco to Philly for Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Lou Marson. The teams still have to examine medical records for the deal to go through.
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Phils are now the favorites in the NL. to repeat as wold series champs :goodposting:
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Francisco is not insignificant. Phils definitely needed a decent, consistent right-handed bat for the bench.

I'm glad Taylor doesn't seem to be involved.

Donald is blocked in the majors, Knapp is low level and Carrasco seems to be in a rut.

Marson is probably the most valuable to the Phils, but for the next year or 2, we can easily survive with Chooch.

 
Solid move, not quite on the same level as a top 5 SP/dominant ace/etc, but a stud who pitches like one more often than not...ie Mark Buerhle(without the big game experience)

I'm not sure this makes the Phillies the favorites, as Lee has never been tested in the playoffs, so time will tell. It all comes down to which team has the hottest pitchers come October anyway, so adding a pitcher who has the stuff/potential to be very tough to beat certainly helps the Phillies. I guess I'd call them the favorites, and it would be cool to see a team repeat in MLB.

Regarding what the Phillies gave up:

Knapp: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/K/Jason-Knapp.shtml

Looks like he has excellent stuff, tons of K's, very young, could be very good down the line

Donald: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/D/Jason-Donald.shtml

Looks like a guy who is no longer taking PED's, stinks this season at AAA

Carrasco: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/C...-Carrasco.shtml

Scouts consider him a top #100 prospect for a reason, tons of K's, good control. Not sure why his ERA is bad.

Marson: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Louis-Marson.shtml

Studly AA numbers in '08, although I don't see any power

All in all, if the Phillies are comfortable signing Lee(this will be a tough call, as Lee is 30 and has only really put it together recently) to a huge deal this winter/next year, and Knapp/Carrasco doesn't develop into a stud, they got themselves steal.

 
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Sounds like a pretty nice deal for the Phillies.

Also noteworthy about the trade is that, with Ben Francisco included in the deal and with Ryan Garko having been traded to SF, I'd expect Matt LaPorta to get called up again soon. He should probably get an extended look playing regularly in the Cleveland lineup at some combination of 1B and OF.

 
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:yes: for now from the Tribe standpoint. I know of these players, besides Knapp, and I've heard good things. I mean, four players from the top 10 of an organization can't be called a horrible haul, especially when they are positions of need. We'll never know why players such as Brown and Happ were not involved. But I imagine the deal changes significantly if Brown is involved. As for Happ, that could also be the case, or the Indians brass likes Carrasco more (not sure how that's entirely possible though). I'd rather have the four then just Brown and Knapp for example.

People already going nuts in Cleveland. Much like when the Colon trade went down.

 
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Obviously we all wanted Doc but good job to Reuben and staff for getting Lee w/o losing Drabek etc. I think I'm more excited about hearing: Eric Bruntlett designated for assignment!!

 
WIP just reported we gave Toronto one last shot before we accepted Lee, the deal would've been Happ, Knapp, Carasco, Donald and Marson and JP turned it down.

 
BoulderBob said:
Solid move, not quite on the same level as a top 5 SP/dominant ace/etc, but a stud who pitches like one more often than not...ie Mark Buerhle(without the big game experience)I'm not sure this makes the Phillies the favorites, as Lee has never been tested in the playoffs, so time will tell.
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As opposed to Halladay.
 
Please See Mine said:
BoulderBob said:
Solid move, not quite on the same level as a top 5 SP/dominant ace/etc, but a stud who pitches like one more often than not...ie Mark Buerhle(without the big game experience)I'm not sure this makes the Phillies the favorites, as Lee has never been tested in the playoffs, so time will tell.
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As opposed to Halladay.
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Halladay is certainly on a different level than Lee, but your point stands...the playoffs are a different beast, especially for pitchers, although Halladay/Lee don't seem to be the types that would be fazed, but then again, you can never be sure.
 
Any deal for Halladay is going to have to include a fresh pair of pants for the now fully soiled GM of the Jays, J.P. Riccardi.

 
Buckfast 1 said:
Sounds like a pretty nice deal for the Phillies.Also noteworthy about the trade is that, with Ben Francisco included in the deal and with Ryan Garko having been traded to SF, I'd expect Matt LaPorta to get called up again soon. He should probably get an extended look playing regularly in the Cleveland lineup at some combination of 1B and OF.
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:shock: on LaPorta. He's been mashing down in AAA.
 
wadegarrett said:
Bobcat10 said:
People already going nuts in Cleveland. Much like when the Colon trade went down.
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What we've come to expect w/ the cheap ### Dolans running the team.
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I personally would like to thank the Dolans and Shapiro for giving me the opportunity to relive my time rooting for the Indians in the 70s...you know, when their logo was my avatar. The only thing missing is Gabe Paul and Nick Miletti. :thumbup:
 
Statorama said:
Buckfast 1 said:
Sounds like a pretty nice deal for the Phillies.Also noteworthy about the trade is that, with Ben Francisco included in the deal and with Ryan Garko having been traded to SF, I'd expect Matt LaPorta to get called up again soon. He should probably get an extended look playing regularly in the Cleveland lineup at some combination of 1B and OF.
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<_< on LaPorta. He's been mashing down in AAA.
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I loves me some Gator4God. :thumbup:
 
Tom Servo said:
SouthJersey said:
Statorama said:
E-Z Glider said:
Deranged Hermit said:
Awesome deal by the Phils.
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:thumbup:
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Both teams did well. The Indians are going to be reaping the benefits of this deal long after Cliff Lee has retired.
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The Phillies ran away with this one. 4 B list prospects for the reigning Cy Young winner? Steal.
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So, 4 guys rated in their Top 10 prospects are on the B list, eh? Hate to see your A list... :thumbup:
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like the deal from both sides. the phillies held on to their top prospects they didn't want to deal for halladay. carrasco and marson had taken a step back this year, but its a nice haul for the indians.
 
Tom Servo said:
wadegarrett said:
Bobcat10 said:
People already going nuts in Cleveland. Much like when the Colon trade went down.
Click to expand...
What we've come to expect w/ the cheap ### Dolans running the team.
Click to expand...
I personally would like to thank the Dolans and Shapiro for giving me the opportunity to relive my time rooting for the Indians in the 70s...you know, when their logo was my avatar. The only thing missing is Gabe Paul and Nick Miletti. :)
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Yep. It was always "the Indians got such a great haul of prospects" in the 70s and 80s. And to be quite honest, they did. But it also meant the Indians were eternally rebuilding and little more than a farm club for other major league teams. The Indians would develop 1 very nice player, trade him for 4-6 prospects, then maybe 1 of them turns out to be really nice, which would then get dealt for 4-6 more prospects. The reality is, unless the Indians can compete with the big payrolls, they will forever stay in rebuilding mode and trading off their good players. Maybe they get a shot once in a while, but for the most part they will compete for the cellar like Oakland. And nothing drives that point home to the Cleveland fans more than trading back-to-back Cy Young winners in back-to-back seasons. The Indians cannot seriously sell their fans on the notion that they can be a competitive franchise after doing that.

Baseball today is the "Yankees-Red Sox Invitational" and then a collection of other teams with inflated payrolls circling around them, plus the occasional small payroll that has everything come together once every 20 years.

 
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kaa said:
Tom Servo said:
wadegarrett said:
Bobcat10 said:
People already going nuts in Cleveland. Much like when the Colon trade went down.
Click to expand...
What we've come to expect w/ the cheap ### Dolans running the team.
Click to expand...
I personally would like to thank the Dolans and Shapiro for giving me the opportunity to relive my time rooting for the Indians in the 70s...you know, when their logo was my avatar. The only thing missing is Gabe Paul and Nick Miletti. :hot:
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Yep. It was always "the Indians got such a great haul of prospects" in the 70s and 80s. And to be quite honest, they did. But it also meant the Indians were eternally rebuilding and little more than a farm club for other major league teams. The Indians would develop 1 very nice player, trade him for 4-6 prospects, then maybe 1 of them turns out to be really nice, which would then get dealt for 4-6 more prospects. The reality is, unless the Indians can compete with the big payrolls, they will forever stay in rebuilding mode and trading off their good players. Maybe they get a shot once in a while, but for the most part they will compete for the cellar like Oakland. And nothing drives that point home to the Cleveland fans more than trading back-to-back Cy Young winners in back-to-back seasons. The Indians cannot seriously sell their fans on the notion that they can be a competitive franchise after doing that.

Baseball today is the "Yankees-Red Sox Invitational" and then a collection of other teams with inflated payrolls circling around them, plus the occasional small payroll that has everything come together once every 20 years.
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:mellow:
 
1. Dominic Brown, of

2. Carlos Carrasco, rhp

3. Lou Marson, c

4. Jason Donald, ss

5. Kyle Drabek, rhp

6. Michael Taylor, of

7. Travis D'Arnaud, c

8. Zach Collier, of

9. J.A. Happ, lhp

10. Jason Knapp, rhp

For what it's worth, this is Baseball America's pre season ranking of the Phils' top prospects. Cleveland got nos. 2, 3, 4 and 10 from the list. that's not too bad of a haul.

I am in an AL only keeper league and Mark Shapiro has now screwed over two of my seasons -- I had Colon back in the day, and Lee until today. But the haul for trading away a half season rental of Colon was mighty impressive, including Lee, Brandon Phillips and Grady Sizemore.

 
Not a huge Lee fan myself although what he did last year was amazing. I would have thrown a few more bones at Toronto for Halladay, but Lee doesn't walk guys and he also doesn't give up a lot of HRs which helps playing in the ballpark he's headed to.

I think the Indians won the deal unless the Phillies win another World Series with Lee's help. Then the Phils win the trade.

 
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Doctor Detroit said:
Not a huge Lee fan myself although what he did last year was amazing. I would have thrown a few more bones at Toronto for Halladay, but Lee doesn't walk guys and he also doesn't give up a lot of HRs which helps playing in the ballpark he's headed to. I think the Indians won the deal unless the Phillies win another World Series with Lee's help. Then the Phils win the trade.
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I think a WS appearance in the next two years (assuming he does not sign) makes them a winner in this deal. The money alone that Lee is owed is a nice bonus. Plus Francisco is no slouch off the bench.
 
pettifogger said:
1. Dominic Brown, of 2. Carlos Carrasco, rhp 3. Lou Marson, c 4. Jason Donald, ss 5. Kyle Drabek, rhp 6. Michael Taylor, of 7. Travis D'Arnaud, c 8. Zach Collier, of 9. J.A. Happ, lhp 10. Jason Knapp, rhp For what it's worth, this is Baseball America's pre season ranking of the Phils' top prospects. Cleveland got nos. 2, 3, 4 and 10 from the list. that's not too bad of a haul. I am in an AL only keeper league and Mark Shapiro has now screwed over two of my seasons -- I had Colon back in the day, and Lee until today. But the haul for trading away a half season rental of Colon was mighty impressive, including Lee, Brandon Phillips and Grady Sizemore.
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Carrasco, as DD pointed out before, is still young and has a nice ceiling. Marson and Donald have not had strong years. The Indians have Carlos Santana so I'm not sure what they are going to do. Knapp could be good but so could have 400 other 19 year old pitchers who flamed out.
 
pettifogger said:
1. Dominic Brown, of 2. Carlos Carrasco, rhp 3. Lou Marson, c 4. Jason Donald, ss 5. Kyle Drabek, rhp 6. Michael Taylor, of 7. Travis D'Arnaud, c 8. Zach Collier, of 9. J.A. Happ, lhp 10. Jason Knapp, rhp For what it's worth, this is Baseball America's pre season ranking of the Phils' top prospects. Cleveland got nos. 2, 3, 4 and 10 from the list. that's not too bad of a haul. I am in an AL only keeper league and Mark Shapiro has now screwed over two of my seasons -- I had Colon back in the day, and Lee until today. But the haul for trading away a half season rental of Colon was mighty impressive, including Lee, Brandon Phillips and Grady Sizemore.
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These ratings are really not accurate now. Drabek is ahead of Carrasco (as evidenced in the Halladay talks).I'd say that Michael Taylor is ahead of Donald now, as well.
 
It's funny, I was at a work outing at the 11:00 Ironpigs games (Phillies AAA affiliate) and they were playing none other than the Columbus Clippers (Indians AAA affiliate). Carrasco was scheduled to start but was scratched right before the start of the game. Marson and Donald were also held out. So who did play?... Matt LaPorta, 0-3, 1 Walk, 1 K.

We saw in a report there would be an Indians scout there, Steve (forget his last name). We saw a guy behind home with a clipboard taking notes and betwenn innings when it quieted down one of out group yelled down, "Steve!" and he looked right up as us. We waved and he just kind of smiled and shook his head. He took off right around the 6th-7th I think which was right around the time we saw the news of the deal.

Saw Donald and Marson standing next to each other on the dugout rail right after we heard the news, wonder if they had heard it at that point already? Guess they could have just walked across the field into the Columbus dugout and went home with those guys since that's where they'll be assigned.

 
I can't see any reason for the Indians to pretend anymore. They've probably alienated a lot of their fanbase with this trade. They won't compete for a few years. Might as well dump anyone they figure won't be on the roster in 2012 now before the trading deadline and move the payroll as close to the Pirates as they can. Why waste money, right?

 
pettifogger said:
I am in an AL only keeper league and Mark Shapiro has now screwed over two of my seasons -- I had Colon back in the day, and Lee until today. But the haul for trading away a half season rental of Colon was mighty impressive, including Lee, Brandon Phillips and Grady Sizemore.
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Colon probably would have won multiple Cy Youngs if he was never traded. The only reason Colon's career went south was that he went to the White Sox in 2003 and they destroyed his arm by overworking him. He only had 1 good season since then after being a workhorse prior to that. The Indians have proven they treat their pitchers well when it comes to pitch counts. I'd rather have 5 years or more of dominance from Colon than developing Lee and Sizemore and then trading Lee off. So the reality is, both trades were terrible. Just sign Colon, and treat him right.
 
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Quite frankly I have to wonder about Sabathia's future. The Brewers overworked him horribly in chasing the playoffs last year. Sometimes the arm damage takes time to show up, but I wonder if he won't be damaged goods like Colon going forward and never live up to that contract. We'll see if he can hold up for the rest of the season.

 
RedRaiders said:
Doctor Detroit said:
Not a huge Lee fan myself although what he did last year was amazing. I would have thrown a few more bones at Toronto for Halladay, but Lee doesn't walk guys and he also doesn't give up a lot of HRs which helps playing in the ballpark he's headed to. I think the Indians won the deal unless the Phillies win another World Series with Lee's help. Then the Phils win the trade.
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I think a WS appearance in the next two years (assuming he does not sign) makes them a winner in this deal. The money alone that Lee is owed is a nice bonus. Plus Francisco is no slouch off the bench.
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Yeah no doubt. The more I thought about it, the more i thought that this might be a very good deal for both teams. Francisco is certainly a nice addition to the Phils OF providing a great defensive option in the late innings in right or left. I've watched a lot of Lee over the years being a Tigers fan and I have never been impressed outside of that crazy season he had in 2008. But he throws strikes and doesn't give up homers which I love. Thing is though, if he is really that good why would the Indians trade him given his contract and the fact he's all they have at the moment? I mean getting great prospects back like LaPorta and Brown is great and all but sometimes you end up spinning your wheels with prospects as someone alluded to earlier. I mean I like the deal for the Indians in tangible product, but I don't like it philosophically. I mean they aren't stacked with pitching prospects anyone and they lost their #1 prospect to a really weird injury and the guy might never pitch again.
 
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