Noahs Troopers
Footballguy
I went with Manning, cause he puts up fat fantasy numbers. Who would you take? 
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Clutch game (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Noahs Troopers
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oukurt
Footballguy
Wait...Clutch game as in fantasy league playoffs or a real NFL playoff/Super Bowl situation?I went with Manning, cause he puts up fat fantasy numbers. Who would you take?
In fact the only QB of all time I would take over Brady in a big game is Montana. Bradshaw and Aikman a close 3rd and 4th.
turkishkamel
Footballguy
Tom Brady. I feel comfortable saying he will retire as the best QB ever. it's too late for me to explain why, but trust me he's good.Wait...Clutch game as in fantasy league playoffs or a real NFL playoff/Super Bowl situation?I went with Manning, cause he puts up fat fantasy numbers. Who would you take?
In fact the only QB of all time I would take over Brady in a big game is Montana. Bradshaw and Aikman a close 3rd and 4th.
SSOG
Moderator
John Elway anyone? 47 game-winning drives? NFL record 5 superbowl appearances? 5-1 in AFC Championship game (also an NFL record)? The only guy to ever walk into a huddle when down by 7 and on his own 1.5 yard line and say "we've got them right where we want them"... and then prove it?Wait...Clutch game as in fantasy league playoffs or a real NFL playoff/Super Bowl situation?I went with Manning, cause he puts up fat fantasy numbers. Who would you take?
In fact the only QB of all time I would take over Brady in a big game is Montana. Bradshaw and Aikman a close 3rd and 4th.
For Brady to be the best ever, wouldn't he have to... you know... finish at least one season as the best in the NFL?Tom Brady. I feel comfortable saying he will retire as the best QB ever. it's too late for me to explain why, but trust me he's good.Wait...Clutch game as in fantasy league playoffs or a real NFL playoff/Super Bowl situation?I went with Manning, cause he puts up fat fantasy numbers. Who would you take?
In fact the only QB of all time I would take over Brady in a big game is Montana. Bradshaw and Aikman a close 3rd and 4th.
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DonnyT33
Footballguy
No he just has to keep winning games and SB's that all that counts to be a great one. Its a team game and dint he lead the league in yards last year?John Elway anyone? 47 game-winning drives? NFL record 5 superbowl appearances? 5-1 in AFC Championship game (also an NFL record)? The only guy to ever walk into a huddle when down by 7 and on his own 1.5 yard line and say "we've got them right where we want them"... and then prove it?Wait...Clutch game as in fantasy league playoffs or a real NFL playoff/Super Bowl situation?I went with Manning, cause he puts up fat fantasy numbers. Who would you take?
In fact the only QB of all time I would take over Brady in a big game is Montana. Bradshaw and Aikman a close 3rd and 4th.For Brady to be the best ever, wouldn't he have to... you know... finish at least one season as the best in the NFL?Tom Brady. I feel comfortable saying he will retire as the best QB ever. it's too late for me to explain why, but trust me he's good.Wait...Clutch game as in fantasy league playoffs or a real NFL playoff/Super Bowl situation?I went with Manning, cause he puts up fat fantasy numbers. Who would you take?
In fact the only QB of all time I would take over Brady in a big game is Montana. Bradshaw and Aikman a close 3rd and 4th.
oukurt
Footballguy
SSOG - I have Elway up there. He would have been higher on my list but with all the nice comebacks he had, he had bad Super Bowls. Not all his fault though. He wasn't surrounded with as much talent as guys like Bradshaw and Aikman. Which speaks even higher for Brady because the talent around him on offense is not what I would call all pro material.
How anyone could vote Manning is beyond me.
How anyone could vote Manning is beyond me.
Big Score
Footballguy
With all due respect to the options in this poll, I've gotta go with the real clutch QB...Joe Cool.
1989 Superbowl, down by 3, 49er's on their own 8 with 3:20 left. They're in the Huddle to call a play and what is going through Joe Cool's mind?
He nudges Harris Barton, his tackle, and says, "There, in the stands, standing near the exit ramp. Isn't that John Candy?"
He then proceeds to lead the 49er's down the field on a clock killing drive, throwing the Superbowl winning TD with .34 seconds on the clock.
Just one, of Montana's 31 fourth-quarter comebacks in the NFL.
Joe Cool.
1989 Superbowl, down by 3, 49er's on their own 8 with 3:20 left. They're in the Huddle to call a play and what is going through Joe Cool's mind?
He nudges Harris Barton, his tackle, and says, "There, in the stands, standing near the exit ramp. Isn't that John Candy?"
He then proceeds to lead the 49er's down the field on a clock killing drive, throwing the Superbowl winning TD with .34 seconds on the clock.
Just one, of Montana's 31 fourth-quarter comebacks in the NFL.
Joe Cool.
bostonfred
Footballguy
You're right, Brady has 17 game winning drives, in less than 1/3 as many years as a starter. He's on pace to crush Elway's 47, but he's not there yet. As for 5-1 in AFCCG's, that's not really a record. 5 Superbowl appearances is, but you're basically trying to say that 5 AFCCGs wins is also a record. That's double counting.
On the other hand, Brady's got three AFCCGs so far and is 3-0 in them. Maybe he holds the record for AFCCG conversion percentage. Oh, and by the way, who has more Superbowl rings, a better win % in the Superbowl, etc.?
Last but not least, the idea that Elway won the game on a long drive is impressive, but so was Brady's game winning drive in Superbowl 36, with 1:37 and no timeouts, and it was a slightly bigger stage than Elway's.
So is the fact that he's a perfect 7-0 in overtime games - second on that list is Bradshaw, who was 5-0. In fact, there's a lot of statistics you can pull out about both QBs; arbitrarily choosing one drive from either of their brilliant careers really doesn't begin to describe them.
Good point. Elway never led the league in passing TDs, and only led the league in passing yards once. Brady has led the league in both passing TDs, and passing yards.
BigRed
Footballguy
lmao anyone? You conveniently missed how he kept sucking in SBs.As for game-winning drives, you have to be down in the first place to have a lot of those. I'm not quite convinced that's an indicator of how great a QB is.
Anyway, GB another Manning vs Brady poll and more people who think football is one QB vs another, not one team vs another.
PS Bush is the next Marshall Faulk and btw how is Owens doing?? Any webcams of him playing bball in his driveway? Cmon the lack of discussion on this is a joke.
That's what I'm talkin bout
SSOG
Moderator
Yeah, remember back in 2000 when Trent Dilfer was the best QB in the NFL? And let's not forget the immortal Brad Johnson in 2002. He was a way better QB than that scrub Rich Gannon that he faced in the superbowl.3 SB rings would suggest that he did.
Tom Brady "drove" 53 yards for a game-winning FIELD GOAL. The game was tied, so the worst that would have happened if he failed was overtime.John Elway drove 98.5 yards for a game-tying TD, and then manufactured a SECOND drive in overtime for the game-winning FG. John Elway converted 3 third-downs on the drive. Tom Brady converted 0 third-downs on the drive. John Elway even had a play where the snap hit the receiver running in motion, but he still managed to recover it and convert the third down. To even suggest that the two drives were even REMOTELY COMPARABLE is a huge joke. John Elway's Drive will forever be capitalized. Tom Brady's "drive" will not.
League MVPs:Elway- 1
Brady- 0
You were saying?
He sucked in the SB when his team was overmatched. Those teams shouldn't have even BEEN in the superbowl. They were MEDIOCRE. How many mediocre teams has Brady piloted to the superbowl?As for having to be behind... yup, Elway was behind a lot. His defense was consistantly below average. The fact that he managed to set an NFL record for wins with a BELOW AVERAGE DEFENSE and no surrounding talent on offense says a lot about him.
Over a third of John Elway's wins were come-from-behind wins. That's pretty darn clutch. You know who is second on the come-from-behind win list? Dan Marino, who also (not coincidentally) had a pretty cruddy defense behind him.
jurb26
Footballguy
Yeah, remember back in 2000 when Trent Dilfer was the best QB in the NFL? And let's not forget the immortal Brad Johnson in 2002. He was a way better QB than that scrub Rich Gannon that he faced in the superbowl.3 SB rings would suggest that he did.Tom Brady "drove" 53 yards for a game-winning FIELD GOAL. The game was tied, so the worst that would have happened if he failed was overtime.John Elway drove 98.5 yards for a game-tying TD, and then manufactured a SECOND drive in overtime for the game-winning FG. John Elway converted 3 third-downs on the drive. Tom Brady converted 0 third-downs on the drive. John Elway even had a play where the snap hit the receiver running in motion, but he still managed to recover it and convert the third down. To even suggest that the two drives were even REMOTELY COMPARABLE is a huge joke. John Elway's Drive will forever be capitalized. Tom Brady's "drive" will not.
League MVPs:Elway- 1
Brady- 0
You were saying?
He sucked in the SB when his team was overmatched. Those teams shouldn't have even BEEN in the superbowl. They were MEDIOCRE. How many mediocre teams has Brady piloted to the superbowl?As for having to be behind... yup, Elway was behind a lot. His defense was consistantly below average. The fact that he managed to set an NFL record for wins with a BELOW AVERAGE DEFENSE and no surrounding talent on offense says a lot about him.
Over a third of John Elway's wins were come-from-behind wins. That's pretty darn clutch. You know who is second on the come-from-behind win list? Dan Marino, who also (not coincidentally) had a pretty cruddy defense behind him.
Come on now. Seriously trying to compare Brady to Dilfer and Johnson when Brady has never been outside the top 10 in either of passing yds or TDs.Then going to League MVPs for a clutch game thread. How many SB MVPs for each?
Are you saying that NE wasn't overmatched vs St.L?
Seems to be a lot of selective reasoning here.
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KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
Elway's MVP season was during a strike shortened season where he completed just 54% of his passes, and his TD:INT ratio of 19:12 was hardly MVP caliber. He had a great second half of the season because teams couldn't adapt to the shotgun offense, until he went to the Superbowl and threw three picks. Prorate his numbers to 16 games, and you end up with Tom Brady's 2005 numbers. Elway's 1987 numbers prorated to 16 games: 4264/25/16 pass 405/5 rush, 54% pass completions
Brady's 2005 numbers prorated to 16 games: 4344/26/14 pass 93/1 rush, 63% pass completions
And that was Elway's best year. We haven't even seen Brady's best year yet.
But if you're going to throw out arbitrary statistics, here's some more to ponder:
Brady Superbowl MVPs 2
Elway Superbowl MVPs 1
And before you decry the Superbowl MVP award as being arbitrary, it sure looks like Elway's MVP was a bit arbitrary, as well.
Brady Superbowl wins 3
Elway Superbowl wins 2
And before you say Brady had the better team around him, remember that Elway didn't win a Superbowl until Davis.
Brady Superbowl win rate 1.000
Elway Superbowl win rate .400
And in 1/3 as many years.
Brady Playoff record 10-1
Elway Playoff record 14-8
Brady has almost as many career playoff wins as Elway in 1/3 as many years.
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Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
Im going to go ahead and say that Brady is the most overrated QB there is. He is good, but he is put in an easy system that works for him, and if everyone else on his team does their job right then Brady looks good. It bothers me how everyone praises Brady as this hall of fame QB when you have ten other players on the offense doing their jobs and giving Brady the time he needs to get rid of the ball. When any part of their system fails so does brady. And dont forget that defense who bails him out if that offense cant get going. So I think the poll should add Brady under the coaching of Belichick. Manning owns the field and pretty much runs his own offense with a less than mediocre deffense. If Manning was in the position that Brady was in it would be a different situation.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Elway's 98 yard game winning drive with 5:32 left in the AFC Championship game is certainly impressive.Brady's game winning drive with 1:37 left in the Superbowl is also very impressive for completely different reasons.
I'd probably enjoy having this argument, but there's too many haters on both sides to make it a good poll.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I was going to ask if other QBs apparently don't get ten other players around them, but then I noticed you were implying that Manning plays with less offensive talent than Brady.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
There are alot of mediocre QBs that win superbowls because of good defense and a good system. Dont get me wrong, I do think he is one of the best QBs in the league, just overrated.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
If this is the case, then big ben is on pace to be the best QB ever.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
Super Bowl Stats 9-21 com/att 0-2 TD/INT Thats whats wrong with that.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
The point I was trying to make is the Brady's TEAM played well together, he is not the only person who played well and he's not the only reason they are where they are. It is a team sport and I think that the TEAM he was on was very well coached and played well as a TEAM. Who knows, put brady on a different team and maybe its a different story. Again, hes a good QB, but I think the credit has to go to Belichick, hes done miracles with that team.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
And with every good QB is the issue, is it the QB that makes his teammates look good or the teammates that makes the QB look good.
SSOG
Moderator
First, Elway's MVP season *WAS STILL AN MVP SEASON*. And despite the season being "strike-shortened", it was still 12 games, so it's not like it's statistically irrelevant here.Second, Elway had a 19/12 TD/INT ratio that season. He won the MVP award. THEREFORE, Elway's 19/12 TD/INT ratio was MVP caliber. How is that difficult to understand?
Third off, teams couldn't adapt to the "shotgun" offense? What a load of BS! The shotgun had been around for several DECADES. Why not say that Elway was successful because teams had trouble adapting to the I-formation and 5-step-drops, while we're at it?
Fourth off, stop thumping Completion Percentage as if it's some important statistic. It's not. Yards per attempt is the important statistic. Imagine an offense where every throw is 20 yards beyond the LoS, and they complete 50% of the passes. Compare that to an offense where every throw is 8 yards beyond the LoS and they complete 75% of the passes. Offense #1 is far and away better than offense #2, because they're averaging 10 ypa compared to 6 ypa. Yards per attempt adjusts numbers based on completion percentage *AND* the length of passes. Let's look at Elway's ypa and compare it to Brady's 2005 ypa, shall we? John Elway... 7.80. Tom Brady... 7.75. Advantage: Elway.
Fifth off, those numbers were similar? In what universe? Notice that part where John Elway has over 300 more rushing yards? You know how that was the biggest part of his game- that he was a threat with his legs? And production aside, how many teams keep their DEs at home and refrain from backside pursuit on a running play out of fear of Tom Brady breaking containment? Elway was so much harder to defend, and opened up things for the rest of the offense so much more.
Sixth off... as for the rest of it, I like that quote that Maurile used. Something about how if there were a coin-flipping contest, some of us would rock and some of us would suck.
The fact that people use that 11-1/3-0 arguement to prove he's not overrated just proves that he's overrated. It's like he didn't have anyone else on the field with him at the time.Antowain Smith is 6-2 in the playoffs and 2-0 in the superbowl, how anyone could call him overrated is beyond me.The bottom line in the NFL is wins and losses. Tom Brady is 11-1 in playoff games and 3-0 in Super Bowls. How anyone can call him overrated is beyond me.
SSOG
Moderator
You're reading my comments without taking into account the arguements I was rebutting.I said that Tom Brady had never been the best QB in the league for a single season so far, and someone mentioned his 3 rings. I pulled out Dilfer and Johnson to prove that winning a SB doesn't make you the best QB in the league for that particular season. Do you agree or disagree with this point?
Come on now. Seriously trying to compare Brady to Dilfer and Johnson when Brady has never been outside the top 10 in either of passing yds or TDs.
Then going to League MVPs for a clutch game thread. How many SB MVPs for each?
Are you saying that NE wasn't overmatched vs St.L?
Seems to be a lot of selective reasoning here.
Second, I mentioned MVPs again in relation to the "Tom Brady has never been the #1 QB in the league in any particular year" arguement. I would say that if a QB wins the MVP award, that's a pretty good indication that he was the best QB in the league that season. Do you agree or disagree with this point?
SB MVPs are irrelevant to the points I was trying to make, but you're right, they're very relevant in a thread about clutch QBs, and you're more than welcome to make the arguement that Brady's MVPs demonstrate how clutch he is. That's a separate arguement, however (and I'd just respond by detailing how he probably didn't deserve either MVP, and then bring up Elway's MVP).
Yes, I would say that New England was overmatched against St. Louis. I would also say that they were overmatched against Pittsburgh and Oakland that season. That makes 3 games that Brady has won when he was overmatched (and 7 more that he's won when his opponent was hopelessly overmatched). Again, we could compare this to Elway, who had a long and storied history of winning games in which he was overmatched (and not just in a single season, either). In fact, I would say that Denver was pretty well overmatched against Green Bay, and John managed to pull that one out, too.
I'm not arguing that Tom Brady is not clutch. I'm simply arguing that John Elway, Captain Comeback himself, was more clutch.
My top tier would include Montana, Marino, and Manning. I'd also be quite comfortable with Favre, Elway, Young, Brady, Fouts, Warner in his prime, or Moon. (I don't know about the old guys like Johny Unitas. Staubach and Bradshaw are as far back as I remember.)
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This is very true. I also think people vastly overrate how clutch some guys are based on very small samples of clutch games (very often fewer than ten, and almost always fewer than twenty).If I want a QB to win me an important game, I want the best QB I can find -- the best, that is, as measured by how good he's been over the largest relevant sample of games possible, not just some very small subset.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
If you want to hurt me, just stick a knife in my chest.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Define this relevant sample. Looking at a larger sample that contains irrelevant games is not necessarily better than looking at a smaller sample that contains too few games to be statistically valid. There's a difference between playoff games and regular season games. People prepare differently and play differently for strategic reasons, as well as simply responding to the pressure in different ways. Even if you believe that many players respond well to the pressure of a playoff game, or more specifically a Superbowl, or some other arbitrary mental hurdle, there are certainly players who don't. I don't see how anyone could argue that this doesn't happen. Moreover, some players struggle more against playoff caliber teams than others, whether they're playing in the regular season or postseason. There's too many variables involved to simply look at the QB's career stats and say good or bad.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Hey BF,We agree most of the time, and I think your first paragraph is right on. The second paragraph consists of interest, but nonetheless unsupported, statements. Your gut tells you they're true; mine needs to see something before I'd believe it.
1) Difference between playoff games and regular season games -- I'm not sure people prepare or play significantly differently for strategic reasons.
2) You say that some players respond well to the pressure in different ways. I've heard it argued before that some players respond well to the pressure right up until the point when they don't respond well to the pressure. Basically, I need some sort of evidence that past data on how a player responds to pressure has predictive value. It wasn't too long ago that Bill Cowher would have been considered someone that didn't respond well to the pressure.
3) Some players struggle more against playoff caliber teams than others -- I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I believe you're using playoff caliber as a proxy for "good", and that works just fine. Basically, it sounds like you're saying the following is fairly likely:
QB X vs. Good D: 200 yards, 2 TDs
QB X vs. Bad D: 300 yards, 3 TDs
QB Y vs. Good D: 100 yards, 1 TD
QB Y vs. Bad D: 400 yards, 4 TD
Let's assume that's what you're saying (hopefully you'll point out my error if I'm wrong). So what do we take from this? That QB X is better against good Ds but worse against bad Ds, at least historically. The key question is what does that mean.
For starters, I don't think it means anything at all in terms of who is the better QB. Same numbers; same schedule; same QB. I don't think it matters where the yards and touchdowns were scored.
The question you're getting at is who is going to do better in game three, against another Good D. For this we'd need to see whether historical QB performance against good teams (i.e., 100 yards, 1 TD) is a better indicator of future performance against good teams than the aggregate QB data (i.e., 500 yards, 5 TDs). (I suppose Drinen could come in and say that a regression formula might show that the aggregate data is better but the good D data has some marginal value, but I'll leave that to him).
Without any evidence though, I'm far from convinced that past games against great Ds is the better projecting tool than past games period.
radballs
Footballguy
I really agree with a lot of Maurile's points. People, especially QBs, are labeled with clutch/choker labels over extremely small sample sizes.I think the whole thing means that the QB position is given way too much credit for a team's success. I think anyone who doesn't think that Peyton Manning could have won all of the same Super Bowls that Brady did, had Manning had the same defense/team surrounding him, is wrong. I guess I lean more toward the QB who puts up great statistics and leads his team to wins throughout the regular season. Just like FF, it's about getting to the dance and then it's a crapshoot a lot of the time in post season head to head matches.
This argument is like beating a dead horse and it can only go so far and then it's ridiculous because you will always have differences in the way that people view clutch-ed-ness.
To New England fans, Buckner is the anithesis of Brady. Buckner was a great player who had one bad play ruin his legacy. Brady's a great QB, but he's also been lucky to be at the right place, at the right time to have such a good team and coaching staff surrounding him. This still goes back to the Montana vs. Marino argument. It's hard for me to say that someone is more clutch than another when the sample size is so small.
People were saying Phil Mickelson wasn't clutch either about a year ago. I guess it's human nature to pidgeon hole human characteristics based off of small sample sizes but I still don't get it. If Peyton wins three Super Bowls over the next 8 years and Brady doesn't win anymore, who's the better QB? Let's try to be the more intelligent critics here and realize that it's so much more about what's happenning in the trenches on both sides of the ball.
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KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Hypothetical.
What happens if Elway and Brady switch careers?
Brady comes into the league in 1983 and plays for the Broncs and Elway comes into the league in 2000 and takes over for an injured Bledsoe in 2001?
What happens if Elway and Brady switch careers?
Brady comes into the league in 1983 and plays for the Broncs and Elway comes into the league in 2000 and takes over for an injured Bledsoe in 2001?
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