Coaches Reputations (1 Viewer)

[Jason Wood]

It's that time of year again when seemingly all fans get that lust for change, unless their team has recently won the Super Bowl or is a perennial contender for one (which greatly limits the conversation). As a fan, I get that desire to get over the hump, to have greatness. But I also think it can go too far in that some people advocate for change even when what they have is almost certainly going to be better than the alternative.

As an Eagles fan, that's going on with Andy Reid right now (just pop into the Eagles thread if you don't know what I'm talking about). But it's also going on in New York right now with Coughlin/Cowher rumblings, is happening with the Jeff Fisher/Tennessee situation, Norv Turner in San Diego, and happens in many cities each and every season.

So that got me to fooling around over at PFR just to get a sense of how we define coaching success. Certainly the easy answer is "Super Bowls." But then would Tom Coughlin be in the conversation? He ultimately won a SB title recently, yet there are plenty of people making the case to see him go in the "it's time for a change" vibe. And as an Eagles fan, the only glaring weakness in Andy's resume is a ring. With at least one, I think the perception of him would be 180 degrees different locally. But he doesn't have the ring. Tony Dungy was considered the poster boy for coaches good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win the big game...until he won the big game.

So just for fun, I took the list of NFL coaches and sorted by career winning percentage. I then wanted to try to give credit to longevity (lots of coaches start hot, particularly if they're taking over a decent team already...see George Siefert or Jon Gruden) so I limited the search to coaches with at least 80 games under their belts (the equivalent of 5 full modern seasons). I then wanted to factor playoff success into the equation, but though the SB titles was too limiting. So I limited the search to coaches who have AT LEAST a 0.500 winning rate in the playoffs.

Here's the list (NFL Coaches, Minimum 80 Games Coaches, Minimum .500 Playoff Win Rate), sorted by career win %

Rk Name Yrs Yr-Yr G W-L% ? G plyf W-L% Chmp1 John Madden 10 1969-1978 142 76.3% 16 56.3% 12 Vince Lombardi 10 1959-1969 136 73.8% 10 90.0% 53 George Halas+ 40 1920-1967 497 68.2% 9 66.7% 64 Don Shula+ 33 1963-1995 490 67.8% 36 52.8% 25 Paul Brown 25 1946-1975 326 67.2% 17 52.9% 76 Jim Lee Howell 7 1954-1960 84 66.3% 4 50.0% 17 George Seifert 11 1989-2001 176 64.8% 15 66.7% 28 Bill Belichick 16 1991-2010 255 63.1% 20 75.0% 39 Curly Lambeau+ 33 1921-1953 380 63.1% 5 60.0% 610 Bill Cowher 15 1992-2006 240 62.3% 21 57.1% 111 Joe Gibbs 16 1981-2007 248 62.1% 24 70.8% 312 Andy Reid 12 1999-2010 191 62.1% 18 55.6% 013 Buck Shaw 12 1946-1960 150 62.1% 3 66.7% 114 Bill Walsh 10 1979-1988 152 60.9% 14 71.4% 315 Tom Landry+ 29 1960-1988 418 60.7% 36 55.6% 216 Potsy Clark 10 1931-1940 118 60.4% 1 100.0% 117 Greasy Neale 10 1941-1950 111 59.4% 4 75.0% 218 Mike Holmgren 17 1992-2008 272 59.2% 24 54.2% 119 Mike Shanahan 17 1988-2010 259 58.7% 13 61.5% 220 Buddy Parker 15 1949-1964 188 58.1% 4 75.0% 221 Jimmy Conzelman+ 15 1921-1948 167 58.0% 2 50.0% 222 Hank Stram 17 1960-1977 238 57.5% 8 62.5% 223 Bill Parcells 19 1983-2006 303 57.0% 19 57.9% 224 Lovie Smith 7 2004-2010 111 56.8% 4 50.0% 025 Chuck Noll+ 23 1969-1991 342 56.6% 24 66.7% 426 Marv Levy 17 1978-1997 255 56.1% 19 57.9% 027 Mike Ditka+ 14 1982-1999 216 56.0% 12 50.0% 128 Brian Billick 9 1999-2007 144 55.6% 8 62.5% 129 Jimmy Johnson 9 1989-1999 144 55.6% 13 69.2% 230 Raymond Berry+ 6 1984-1989 87 55.2% 5 60.0% 031 Tom Coughlin 15 1995-2010 239 55.2% 15 53.3% 132 Jerry Burns 6 1986-1991 95 54.7% 6 50.0% 033 Jon Gruden 11 1998-2008 176 54.0% 9 55.6% 134 Dan Reeves 23 1981-2003 357 53.5% 20 55.0% 035 Tom Flores 12 1979-1994 184 52.7% 11 72.7% 236 Mike Holovak 9 1961-1976 108 52.5% 2 50.0% 037 **** Vermeil 15 1976-2005 229 52.4% 11 54.5% 138 Ray Malavasi 6 1966-1982 85 51.8% 6 50.0% 039 Bum Phillips 11 1975-1985 159 51.6% 7 57.1% 040 John Fox 9 2002-2010 143 51.0% 8 62.5% 041 Weeb Ewbank 20 1954-1973 266 50.2% 5 80.0% 342 Lou Saban 16 1960-1976 201 49.0% 4 50.0% 243 Norv Turner 13 1994-2010 204 48.3% 8 50.0% 044 Forrest Gregg+ 11 1975-1987 161 46.9% 4 50.0% 045 Walt Michaels 6 1977-1982 87 45.3% 4 50.0% 046 George Wilson 12 1957-1969 160 44.7% 2 100.0% 147 Sam Wyche 12 1984-1995 191 44.0% 5 60.0% 048 Jim Haslett 7 2000-2008 108 43.5% 2 50.0% 049 Rich Kotite 6 1991-1996 96 41.7% 2 50.0% 050 Bart Starr+ 9 1975-1983 131 40.6% 2 50.0% 051 Dom Capers 8 1995-2005 128 37.5% 2 50.0% 052 Ray Perkins 8 1979-1990 117 35.9% 2 50.0% 0The first thing, as an Eagles fan, that jumps out to me is that Andy is second among active coaches (3rd if you include Cowher) in win rate. But he's also the winningest coach never to have a title to his name. In fact, you have to go all the way down to 24th on the list to find the next guy without a ring, and that's Lovie Smith. You'll also note that it's HARD to be a coach given expectations. In the entirety of league history, only 41 coaches have won at least half their games and half their playoff games. My point? Understand what you wish for.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

Sometimes a change is needed simply for the sake of making a change. IMO, Fisher is a pretty good example of this.

Also, IMO, I think the NYG and Eagles would be foolish to get rid of their coaches as both are perenial playoff teams and usually finish in the top tier of the league in wins. Both teams have been hit by injury HARD this year and both teams have a shot of playing next week.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

It's that time of year again when seemingly all fans get that lust for change, unless their team has recently won the Super Bowl or is a perennial contender for one (which greatly limits the conversation). As a fan, I get that desire to get over the hump, to have greatness. But I also think it can go too far in that some people advocate for change even when what they have is almost certainly going to be better than the alternative.

As an Eagles fan, that's going on with Andy Reid right now (just pop into the Eagles thread if you don't know what I'm talking about). But it's also going on in New York right now with Coughlin/Cowher rumblings, is happening with the Jeff Fisher/Tennessee situation, Norv Turner in San Diego, and happens in many cities each and every season.

So that got me to fooling around over at PFR just to get a sense of how we define coaching success. Certainly the easy answer is "Super Bowls." But then would Tom Coughlin be in the conversation? He ultimately won a SB title recently, yet there are plenty of people making the case to see him go in the "it's time for a change" vibe. And as an Eagles fan, the only glaring weakness in Andy's resume is a ring. With at least one, I think the perception of him would be 180 degrees different locally. But he doesn't have the ring. Tony Dungy was considered the poster boy for coaches good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to win the big game...until he won the big game.

So just for fun, I took the list of NFL coaches and sorted by career winning percentage. I then wanted to try to give credit to longevity (lots of coaches start hot, particularly if they're taking over a decent team already...see George Siefert or Jon Gruden) so I limited the search to coaches with at least 80 games under their belts (the equivalent of 5 full modern seasons). I then wanted to factor playoff success into the equation, but though the SB titles was too limiting. So I limited the search to coaches who have AT LEAST a 0.500 winning rate in the playoffs.

Here's the list (NFL Coaches, Minimum 80 Games Coaches, Minimum .500 Playoff Win Rate), sorted by career win %

Rk Name Yrs Yr-Yr G W-L% ? G plyf W-L% Chmp1 John Madden 10 1969-1978 142 76.3% 16 56.3% 12 Vince Lombardi 10 1959-1969 136 73.8% 10 90.0% 53 George Halas+ 40 1920-1967 497 68.2% 9 66.7% 64 Don Shula+ 33 1963-1995 490 67.8% 36 52.8% 25 Paul Brown 25 1946-1975 326 67.2% 17 52.9% 76 Jim Lee Howell 7 1954-1960 84 66.3% 4 50.0% 17 George Seifert 11 1989-2001 176 64.8% 15 66.7% 28 Bill Belichick 16 1991-2010 255 63.1% 20 75.0% 39 Curly Lambeau+ 33 1921-1953 380 63.1% 5 60.0% 610 Bill Cowher 15 1992-2006 240 62.3% 21 57.1% 111 Joe Gibbs 16 1981-2007 248 62.1% 24 70.8% 312 Andy Reid 12 1999-2010 191 62.1% 18 55.6% 013 Buck Shaw 12 1946-1960 150 62.1% 3 66.7% 114 Bill Walsh 10 1979-1988 152 60.9% 14 71.4% 315 Tom Landry+ 29 1960-1988 418 60.7% 36 55.6% 216 Potsy Clark 10 1931-1940 118 60.4% 1 100.0% 117 Greasy Neale 10 1941-1950 111 59.4% 4 75.0% 218 Mike Holmgren 17 1992-2008 272 59.2% 24 54.2% 119 Mike Shanahan 17 1988-2010 259 58.7% 13 61.5% 220 Buddy Parker 15 1949-1964 188 58.1% 4 75.0% 221 Jimmy Conzelman+ 15 1921-1948 167 58.0% 2 50.0% 222 Hank Stram 17 1960-1977 238 57.5% 8 62.5% 223 Bill Parcells 19 1983-2006 303 57.0% 19 57.9% 224 Lovie Smith 7 2004-2010 111 56.8% 4 50.0% 025 Chuck Noll+ 23 1969-1991 342 56.6% 24 66.7% 426 Marv Levy 17 1978-1997 255 56.1% 19 57.9% 027 Mike Ditka+ 14 1982-1999 216 56.0% 12 50.0% 128 Brian Billick 9 1999-2007 144 55.6% 8 62.5% 129 Jimmy Johnson 9 1989-1999 144 55.6% 13 69.2% 230 Raymond Berry+ 6 1984-1989 87 55.2% 5 60.0% 031 Tom Coughlin 15 1995-2010 239 55.2% 15 53.3% 132 Jerry Burns 6 1986-1991 95 54.7% 6 50.0% 033 Jon Gruden 11 1998-2008 176 54.0% 9 55.6% 134 Dan Reeves 23 1981-2003 357 53.5% 20 55.0% 035 Tom Flores 12 1979-1994 184 52.7% 11 72.7% 236 Mike Holovak 9 1961-1976 108 52.5% 2 50.0% 037 **** Vermeil 15 1976-2005 229 52.4% 11 54.5% 138 Ray Malavasi 6 1966-1982 85 51.8% 6 50.0% 039 Bum Phillips 11 1975-1985 159 51.6% 7 57.1% 040 John Fox 9 2002-2010 143 51.0% 8 62.5% 041 Weeb Ewbank 20 1954-1973 266 50.2% 5 80.0% 342 Lou Saban 16 1960-1976 201 49.0% 4 50.0% 243 Norv Turner 13 1994-2010 204 48.3% 8 50.0% 044 Forrest Gregg+ 11 1975-1987 161 46.9% 4 50.0% 045 Walt Michaels 6 1977-1982 87 45.3% 4 50.0% 046 George Wilson 12 1957-1969 160 44.7% 2 100.0% 147 Sam Wyche 12 1984-1995 191 44.0% 5 60.0% 048 Jim Haslett 7 2000-2008 108 43.5% 2 50.0% 049 Rich Kotite 6 1991-1996 96 41.7% 2 50.0% 050 Bart Starr+ 9 1975-1983 131 40.6% 2 50.0% 051 Dom Capers 8 1995-2005 128 37.5% 2 50.0% 052 Ray Perkins 8 1979-1990 117 35.9% 2 50.0% 0The first thing, as an Eagles fan, that jumps out to me is that Andy is second among active coaches (3rd if you include Cowher) in win rate. But he's also the winningest coach never to have a title to his name. In fact, you have to go all the way down to 24th on the list to find the next guy without a ring, and that's Lovie Smith. You'll also note that it's HARD to be a coach given expectations. In the entirety of league history, only 41 coaches have won at least half their games and half their playoff games. My point? Understand what you wish for.

Nice Work JW. BTW who the heck is Jim Lee Howell ?

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Nice Work JW. BTW who the heck is Jim Lee Howell ?

The guy smart enough to hire Vince Lombardi as OC and Tom Landry as DC.

 

[Jason Wood]

Sometimes a change is needed simply for the sake of making a change. IMO, Fisher is a pretty good example of this.Also, IMO, I think the NYG and Eagles would be foolish to get rid of their coaches as both are perenial playoff teams and usually finish in the top tier of the league in wins. Both teams have been hit by injury HARD this year and both teams have a shot of playing next week.

I agree. In fact, I have to say that I let Jeff Fisher's reputation cloud my initial thoughts about the Titans possibly moving on. But at the prompting of a thread on the SP last week, I took a look and the guy has only had a winning record in six of 16 full seasons (he took over for Pardee and went 1-5 in his first year, but I'll exlude that for obvious reasons).

 

[Boston]

I think one area that gets overlooked is a coach's ability to change...whether it's on-field strategy, dealing with players (i.e. communicating with different generations) or dealing with non-football issues (ex. media) how a coach responds to these areas will determine whether they have long-term success. I found one of the more interesting parts of the Lombardi show on HBO to be Frank Gifford talking about Lombardi when he was with the Giants as an OC...when he first got there he was treating his players like college kids and it wasn't working...he talked with Gifford and a few other players discovered this flaw and changed how he interacted with them and the rest is history. Locally I remember when Parcells came on-board and everyone expected his offense to be three yards and a cloud of dust because that's what he was known for with the Giants...well that changed real quickly when he discovered the Pats O worked best with Bledsoe flinging it around. IMO one of the most underrated things in the NFL was the ability of Tom Landry and Don Shula to coach at such a high-level when there was so much social change going on in America...Landry was successful whether his players had crew-cuts and said "yes sir" or had long-hair, earrings and said "was-sup."...that shows a great ability to adapt.

As for Reid I think he's a very good coach who has had a fatal flaw his entire career...his inability to change his offensive philosophy. There is little doubt in my mind that Reid is one of the best HC's of his era...his Eagle teams are almost always in the hunt. Yet, for the most part he has stood steadfast to a pass-first offense that while being successful has not taken some real good teams the distance. I would like to see Reid get a little more diverse in this area...don't be so committed to one-style of football...do that and he just might make the jump from one of the best coaches without a ring to being a great coach with a ring.