Coal, it's clean, right? (1 Viewer)

[supermike80]

Dude, you've been told that power companies invested 40 bn in renewable energy in 2017. You've even been shown a graph (if you clicked on the link) that showed the increasing investments in renewables since 2004. And for every piece of information you revert to "I just don't get it - why isn't it already here". 

Why do you insist that Rome has to be built in one day?

And this is why people disengage 

Awe don't be hurt.  None of what you said makes sense...at all.  But it's OK.  You can disengage.  You finally, after many pages, came up with a relevant point, and I commented on that...fairly.  I can't debate on hope....It's a real question that you can't answer.  Because it isn't true.

 

[PhantomJB]

Why is "a new energy grid" necessary? I'm no expert, but it looks like other countries are augmenting existing grids in this manner, not completely replacing whatever they had before.

The Tres Amigas project is an example of the difficulties integrating HVDC into the existing grid.

It began in 2009 as a $1.6 billion project with the express purpose of transmitting renewable power in the Southwest. It has since been scaled back to $200 million and some would argue is still facing huge challenges.

Technology is not the issue...it's permitting, siting and interconnection agreements.

Not to mention it's totally speculative and therefore scares off investors...new transmission lines require certainty in generating plants but getting new generating plants in remote areas requires certainty in transmission lines. Classic chicken and egg.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/tres-amigas-loses-key-interconnect-for-grid-connecting-project#gs.Prtun16o

 

[PhantomJB]

So interesting for me would be to lay out the year over year of coal transportation Vs the up front capital investment for solar and wind and see where that lays out.  Lots to do in that there but I applaud you finally looking beyond what feels good.

It's been done and it's called the levelized cost of electricity. Do your homework.

The levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) is given by:

{\displaystyle \mathrm {LCOE} ={\frac {\text{sum of costs over lifetime}}{\text{sum of electrical energy produced over lifetime}}}={\frac {\sum _{t=1}^{n}{\frac {I_{t}+M_{t}+F_{t}}{\left({1+r}\right)^{t}}}}{\sum _{t=1}^{n}{\frac {E_{t}}{\left({1+r}\right)^{t}}}}}}

It:investment expenditures in the year t

Mtperations and maintenance expenditures in the year t

Ft:fuel expenditures in the year t

Et:electrical energy generated in the year t

r:discount rate

n:expected lifetime of system or power station

 

[supermike80]

It's been done and it's called the levelized cost of electricity. Do your homework.

The levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) is given by:

{\displaystyle \mathrm {LCOE} ={\frac {\text{sum of costs over lifetime}}{\text{sum of electrical energy produced over lifetime}}}={\frac {\sum _{t=1}^{n}{\frac {I_{t}+M_{t}+F_{t}}{\left({1+r}\right)^{t}}}}{\sum _{t=1}^{n}{\frac {E_{t}}{\left({1+r}\right)^{t}}}}}}

It:investment expenditures in the year t

Mtperations and maintenance expenditures in the year t

Ft:fuel expenditures in the year t

Et:electrical energy generated in the year t

r:discount rate

n:expected lifetime of system or power station

You can't seriously expect me to think a study like this hasn't been done and I need to "do my homework"  Come on.  I'm a transportation manager having a conversation on a bulletin board and I know this should be a consideration----Wow.

To even hint that here we are in the 2010's and a study like this HASN'T been done is quite frankly insulting.  Shame on you.

 

[Van Dyman]

It's been done and it's called the levelized cost of electricity. Do your homework.

The levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) is given by:

{\displaystyle \mathrm {LCOE} ={\frac {\text{sum of costs over lifetime}}{\text{sum of electrical energy produced over lifetime}}}={\frac {\sum _{t=1}^{n}{\frac {I_{t}+M_{t}+F_{t}}{\left({1+r}\right)^{t}}}}{\sum _{t=1}^{n}{\frac {E_{t}}{\left({1+r}\right)^{t}}}}}}

It:investment expenditures in the year t

Mtperations and maintenance expenditures in the year t

Ft:fuel expenditures in the year t

Et:electrical energy generated in the year t

r:discount rate

n:expected lifetime of system or power station

Good info. Thanks. Does this account for things like health costs/benefits, costs of dealing with (or preparing for) rising sea levels, etc.? I'm not discounting LCOE as a comparative tool, just trying to understand it better.

 

[PhantomJB]

Good info. Thanks. Does this account for things like health costs/benefits, costs of dealing with (or preparing for) rising sea levels, etc.? I'm not discounting LCOE as a comparative tool, just trying to understand it better.

It's a great question. Generally speaking most LCOE calculations do not factor in those things. It mainly just takes into account upfront capital costs, transportation, ongoing maintenance and fuel costs to create more apples to apples comparisons.

What you are referring to are called economic externalities. I mention these in an earlier post as to why current fossil fuel prices are artificially low. A carbon tax theoretically would even things out a little.

To be fair, the cost of new transmission lines (like what might be required for remotely located new solar plants) is also not generally included in LCOE. So it has its limitations but still quite useful.

 

[Van Dyman]

It's a great question. Generally speaking most LCOE calculations do not factor in those things. It mainly just takes into account upfront capital costs, transportation, ongoing maintenance and fuel costs to create more apples to apples comparisons.

What you are referring to are called economic externalities. I mention these in an earlier post as to why current fossil fuel prices are artificially low. A carbon tax theoretically would even things out a little.

To be fair, the cost of new transmission lines (like what might be required for remotely located new solar plants) is also not generally included in LCOE. So it has its limitations but still quite useful.

Thank you. And I'm not here to push the new transmission lines as a definitive solution. I just found out TODAY that the new-ish tech being used elsewhere. Whatever our (US) challenges are, the choice may be to either overcome them now or face more difficult challenges later. Also, as a general matter, the US can't get so bogged down in self-inflicted challenges that we become stuck while other countries (who also have challenges) move forward.

 

[jonessed]

Electricity from burning coal surely doesn't get lost in the wires, right (and the trucks/trains that drive the coals around surely doesn't use any energy, considering you are moving to a more olistic approach)?

I still have no idea what you are talking about.  Lost in the wires?

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Russian coal-mining town 'paints snow white to hide evidence of pollution'

Sounds awesome 

 

[Lutherman2112]

The current delivery system probably wouldn't be used for long-distance transmissions, though. Right? Just multiplying the current loss rate times a higher distance isn't necessarily the right way to look at it, if long-distance transmissions rely on a different technology (with different loss rates). China and Brazil are transmitting a few THOUSAND kilometers via HVDC.

I'm glad you mentioned long distances. The old way of creating and distributing electricity relied on high energy production in remote areas with a  large scale distribution system across a wired grid system. Many people are stuck on the question of "How do you replace the capacity and reliability of the old way?" We have to build out and plan regionally vs nationally with regard to a new grid.

Centralized, high energy production is a thing of the past. It ain't dead yet but we should start to file the DNR orders.