Could the actions of Randy Moss... (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

Based on numbers alone, the guy is probably already Hall-worthy, if not very close. But if I'm on the Hall of Fame committee, or a Hall of Fame voter, I likely don't take to kindly to a guy who openly admits that he doesn't care about the game or his team. "Nobody in the organization cares --- why should I?"

And that is just what's happening this year. It's been no secret that the guy half-asses almost every play where the ball isn't coming his way. Add in the trouble off the field, his "Me First" attitude in general, and you have all the makings of a guy who may get a rude awakening when it's time for the Hall voters to judge how worthy a candidate he is. At the very least, he may have to wait a year or two after the standard five year waiting period. I think it would send a terrible message if he was voted in on the first ballot.

But you know what? Randy won't even care. Why should he? He doesn't care about anything else...

 

[nola]

Based on numbers alone, the guy is probably already Hall-worthy, if not very close.

Not close yet. Art Monk isn't in. Moss needs more big seasons. Lots of great WRs don't get in.

 

[rascal]

He is not already HOF worthy.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

Based on numbers alone, the guy is probably already Hall-worthy, if not very close.

Not close yet. Art Monk isn't in. Moss needs more big seasons. Lots of great WRs don't get in.

If his career ended tomorrow he'd never sniff the HoF.

 

[SSOG]

His actions most certainly WILL damage his chances of getting into the HoF. I agree that if his career ended tomorrow he's not getting in. He'd be hotly contested, for sure, and it'd probably be close, but I don't think he has quite enough yet.

 

[dslaw]

I don't think his actions will hurt his vote total. LT got in and he wasn't exactly a model citizen. But Moss will need to keep producing for a few more years before he gets in.

 

[Mungo Burrows]

I don't think his actions will hurt his vote total. LT got in and he wasn't exactly a model citizen. But Moss will need to keep producing quit dogging it and start producing again for a few more years before he gets in.

fixed

 

[BoulderBob]

He is already a lock, anyone saying otherwise simply hasn't looked at the stats he has put up over his career.

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1998 min | 16 | 1 4 4.0 0 | 69 1313 19.0 17 |

| 1999 min | 16 | 4 43 10.8 0 | 80 1413 17.7 11 |

| 2000 min | 16 | 3 5 1.7 0 | 77 1437 18.7 15 |

| 2001 min | 16 | 3 38 12.7 0 | 82 1233 15.0 10 |

| 2002 min | 16 | 6 51 8.5 0 | 106 1347 12.7 7 |

| 2003 min | 16 | 6 18 3.0 0 | 111 1632 14.7 17 |

| 2004 min | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 49 767 15.7 13 |

| 2005 oak | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 60 1005 16.8 8 |

| 2006 oak | 4 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 12 136 11.3 2 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 129 | 23 159 6.9 0 | 646 10283 15.9 100 |

The guy is 5th in career TD's for crying out loud, he is beyond a lock, he is a first ballot lock. By the end of his career, only Jerry Rice(and possibly Harrison) will be considered a better WR.

 

[piston pete griffin]

Moss isn't in the Hall yet. If he had stayed in Minn and C-pep had stayed they both would be locks by the end of next season. With out each other they are lost. The worst thing that happed to each of their careers was to be seperated.

 

[Warpig]

This is a :honda:

*edit*

It's possible it was rolled off though. But I know I've seen this before.

 

[Sigfawn]

He is already a lock, anyone saying otherwise simply hasn't looked at the stats he has put up over his career. +--------------------------+-------------------------+ | Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1998 min | 16 | 1 4 4.0 0 | 69 1313 19.0 17 || 1999 min | 16 | 4 43 10.8 0 | 80 1413 17.7 11 || 2000 min | 16 | 3 5 1.7 0 | 77 1437 18.7 15 || 2001 min | 16 | 3 38 12.7 0 | 82 1233 15.0 10 || 2002 min | 16 | 6 51 8.5 0 | 106 1347 12.7 7 || 2003 min | 16 | 6 18 3.0 0 | 111 1632 14.7 17 || 2004 min | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 49 767 15.7 13 || 2005 oak | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 60 1005 16.8 8 || 2006 oak | 4 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 12 136 11.3 2 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 129 | 23 159 6.9 0 | 646 10283 15.9 100 |The guy is 5th in career TD's for crying out loud, he is beyond a lock, he is a first ballot lock. By the end of his career, only Jerry Rice(and possibly Harrison) will be considered a better WR.

100 tds in 129 games. End of story.He'd go to the HOF tomorrow. Only Rice has better stats for the same number of years. And if Moss would have stayed with Cpepp in Minn, he is the only WR who would have had a very good shot to surpass rice. Moss is not just one of the best WRs of his era, one of the best WRs ever. Easily the most physically gifted WR ever. He has solid work ethic. He's just immature. There has never been a better WR in terms of adjusting to the ball, and body control. Rice was a technician. Moss is a freak of nature. No one could slow down, speed up, jump, twist, go get a ball like Moss. His maturity has hurt him. If he was a stand up guy, a few years ago we'd be arguing if he was better then Rice. He was matching his numbers VERY closely. And if you say ANY wr is "matching Rice td for td" you're talking about a very special WR. The Raiders can taint him all they want, he can put his foot in his mouth as much as he wants, but there's no question Moss is one of the greatest WRs ever. Monk can't even hold his jock. Monk. *lol* Randy Moss had as many TDs in his FIRST year as Monk had in his first FOUR years.Monk had 68 TDs in 224 games. *lol* Monk could come back and play 5 more years and not sniff Randys TD totals. Monk shouldn't even be mentioned in the same paragraph as Randy Moss.

 

[Bri]

He's somewhere around TD now IMO but he wishes he had as big an impact as TD

 

[BoulderBob]

He's somewhere around TD now IMO but he wishes he had as big an impact as TD

TD was great, but so was his supporting cast. In terms of stats, he can't hold Moss' jock.

 

[Bri]

He's somewhere around TD now IMO but he wishes he had as big an impact as TD

TD was great, but so was his supporting cast. In terms of stats, he can't hold Moss' jock.

Sure he could, well at first guess. Post some

 

[BoulderBob]

All-time leaders

1. J Rice 197

2. C Carter 130

3. *M Harrison 111

4. *T Owens 102

5. T Brown 100

6. *R Moss 100

7. S Largent 100

RB

----

All-time leaders

1. E Smith 164

2. M Allen 123

3. W Payton 110

4. J Brown 106

5. J Riggins 104

6. M Faulk 100

7. B Sanders 99

8. J Bettis 91

9. *S Alexander 91

10. F Harris 91

11. C Martin 90

12. E Dickerson 90

13. P Holmes 86

14. J Taylor 83

15. O Anderson 81

16. R Watters 78

17. T Dorsett 77

18. P Johnson 76

19. *L Tomlinson 75

20. E Campbell 74

21. L Kelly 74

22. T Allen 73

23. *C Dillon 71

24. C Muncie 71

25. G Riggs 69

26. S VanBuren 69

27. E George 68

28. *E James 66

29. T Thomas 65

30. *S Davis 65

31. L Csonka 64

32. L Moore 63

33. O Simpson 61

34. H Walker 61

35. T Davis 60

36. *M Alstott 56

37. C Warner 56

38. E Byner 56

39. R Craig 56

40. A Smith 54

41. G Rogers 54

42. C Foreman 53

43. J Perry 53

44. *F Taylor 53

45. C Warren 52

46. B Brown 52

47. E Boozer 52

48. N Anderson 51

49. G Bell 51

50. M Pruitt 51

Rushing Yards

---------

All-time leaders

1. E Smith 18355

2. W Payton 16726

3. B Sanders 15269

4. C Martin 14101

5. J Bettis 13662

6. E Dickerson 13259

7. T Dorsett 12739

8. J Brown 12312

9. M Faulk 12279

10. M Allen 12243

11. F Harris 12120

12. T Thomas 12074

13. J Riggins 11352

14. O Simpson 11236

15. *C Dillon 10710

16. R Watters 10643

17. E George 10441

18. O Anderson 10273

19. *E James 9569

20. E Campbell 9407

21. *T Barber 9134

22. *F Taylor 8734

23. *W Dunn 8686

24. T Allen 8614

25. J Taylor 8597

26. J Perry 8378

27. E Byner 8261

28. H Walker 8225

29. R Craig 8189

30. G Riggs 8188

31. L Csonka 8081

32. F McNeil 8074

33. P Holmes 8035

34. *S Alexander 8004

35. G Hearst 7966

36. J Brooks 7962

37. *S Davis 7921

38. *L Tomlinson 7697

39. C Warren 7696

40. *A Green 7647

41. T Davis 7607

42. M Pruitt 7378

43. L Kelly 7274

44. G Rogers 7176

45. C Garner 7097

46. R Williams 7097

47. *J Lewis 6980

48. R Hampton 6897

49. A Smith 6881

50. C Warner 6844

For comparison:

Davis:

Among the league's all-time top 50

Rushes: 49

Rushing yards: 41

Rushing TDs: 35

Moss:

Among the league's all-time top 50

Receptions: 33

Receiving yards: 22

Receiving TDs: 5t

Rush/Receive TDs: 17t

 

[Slum Lord]

The guy is 5th in career TD's for crying out loud, he is beyond a lock, he is a first ballot lock. By the end of his career, only Jerry Rice(and possibly Harrison) will be considered a better WR.

No, he's not a first ballot lock, or a lock period. You dont get in the Hall of Fame with stats alone. He's never won ANYTHING AT ALL. He's been more a pain in the rear than anything. If he lasts long enough he'll probably get in, but right now, no way its for sure.

 

[BoulderBob]

The guy is 5th in career TD's for crying out loud, he is beyond a lock, he is a first ballot lock. By the end of his career, only Jerry Rice(and possibly Harrison) will be considered a better WR.

No, he's not a first ballot lock, or a lock period. You dont get in the Hall of Fame with stats alone. He's never won ANYTHING AT ALL. He's been more a pain in the rear than anything. If he lasts long enough he'll probably get in, but right now, no way its for sure.

Please, every great player isn't going to win a SuperBowl. Moss has been on solid teams throughout his career, he is a winner. If you don't think he is deserving of a HOF spot at this point in time, so be it, you obviously buy into the crap the media feeds you.

 

[[echo]]

ask Pete Rose if a persons actions can damage their changes at the Hall of Fame.. christ - this may be the dumbest question ever posted in the boards..

Moss is a gifted reciever who gives about 60% oh his "good" days and gives 0% and smokes weed on all of the others.

he's pathetic.

 

[David Yudkin]

Moss is in already barring a lengthy incarceration or life sentence.

There have only been 19 players to get to 100 TD, and IIRC all of the ones that are eligible have made it in.

 

[Bri]

thanks for the stats, legwork

to me though, Davis had 4 years, Moss had 6.

I just looked and I guess the 13TD 7th year is sweet but the 767 yards is just eh

Maybe Priest?

looked and he's got 4-5 years, well that's the feeling I've got about Moss right now. Obviously it seems off but

 

[BoulderBob]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

 

[Bri]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

If it's me, I'm surprised I offended you by my posts. I thought I wrote "that's how I feel about him" and well that's it. I too consider Priest and TD as wodnerful players in their prime and didn't think I was insulting him so much. Sorry meant nothing by it, quite surprised and confused

 

[CalBear]

I'm not sure he'd get in if he retired tomorrow; he's only #33 in receptions and #22 in receiving yardage. But if he puts up another 2500 yards or so, which will get him in or near the top 10 in receiving yardage, and #4 at the worst in receiving TDs, top 15 in rush/receiving TDs, he'll be a lock.

Unless he's hit by a bus, he'll get to first-ballot HOF lock numbers.

 

[dagogrease]

The guy is 5th in career TD's for crying out loud, he is beyond a lock, he is a first ballot lock. By the end of his career, only Jerry Rice(and possibly Harrison) will be considered a better WR.

No, he's not a first ballot lock, or a lock period. You dont get in the Hall of Fame with stats alone. He's never won ANYTHING AT ALL. He's been more a pain in the rear than anything. If he lasts long enough he'll probably get in, but right now, no way its for sure.

Please, every great player isn't going to win a SuperBowl. Moss has been on solid teams throughout his career, he is a winner. If you don't think he is deserving of a HOF spot at this point in time, so be it, you obviously buy into the crap the media feeds you.

Many thought Art Monk and Michael Irvin were lock first ballot HOF'ers too...will they get in? Probably, but it is certainly not a lock and Randy Moss IMO is at this point not in their league. There is more to being a HOFer than stats and Randy Moss has quit on teams as much as he has helped them and HOF voters take that into account. If he would worry more about what he needs to do in the game instead of what the game should be doing for him he would certainly be a lock HOFer.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Moss is a borderline HOF candidate already. And his "actions" are overdramatized by the media and stupid ESPN that has to turn everything into a soap opera. I swear ESPN creates more news than it reports.

Moss is likely going to play another 5+ years in the NFL and should accumulate the necessary HOF numbers, if he hasn't already. In the meantime, squirting a water bottle on a ref or displaying apathy for a pathetic team are not cardinal sins that will prevent him from making it in.

 

[dagogrease]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

I'm sorry you feel that you are the be all and end all of HOF discussions. IMO, talent and stats only get you so far in this league and you need heart and dedication to be a Hall of Famer and Randy Moss NEVER had that. If that's irrational, so be it.

 

[TitusIII]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

I'm sorry you feel that you are the be all and end all of HOF discussions. IMO, talent and stats only get you so far in this league and you need heart and dedication to be a Hall of Famer and Randy Moss NEVER had that. If that's irrational, so be it.

Who are you to question his heart and dedication? You don't put up the numbers Moss has put up without the two. As has been stated in this thread, the media paints Moss as a villian, it is good for the NFL to do this, but the guy is already a lock. His numbers are other-wordly, the same as his overall talent. You can't blame a WR for failing to win a superbowl. This is a game where one super-talent(Moss) may not be enough to defeat a better team. People hate Randy Moss, but some of you are allowing your emotions to get in the way of cold, hard facts.

 

[gman8343]

Moss isn't in the Hall yet. If he had stayed in Minn and C-pep had stayed they both would be locks by the end of next season. With out each other they are lost. The worst thing that happed to each of their careers was to be seperated.

This is incorrect. Randy Moss excellent with Randall Cunningham and Jeff George throwing him the ball early in his career. He was also very good with Kerry Collins last year prior to his injury. Moss didn't need Culp to make him a stud at all.

 

[Slum Lord]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

One of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen? You must be Randy's mom, because i cant see how anyone can be this bias. Sorry, but you've dissapointed FBG.com, not the other way around.

 

[TitusIII]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

One of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen? You must be Randy's mom, because i cant see how anyone can be this bias. Sorry, but you've dissapointed FBG.com, not the other way around.

I'm sorry man, but if you don't consider Randy Moss one of the greatest individual athletes to play in this league, it isn't worth the time to argue with you.

 

[dagogrease]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

I'm sorry you feel that you are the be all and end all of HOF discussions. IMO, talent and stats only get you so far in this league and you need heart and dedication to be a Hall of Famer and Randy Moss NEVER had that. If that's irrational, so be it.

Who are you to question his heart and dedication? You don't put up the numbers Moss has put up without the two. As has been stated in this thread, the media paints Moss as a villian, it is good for the NFL to do this, but the guy is already a lock. His numbers are other-wordly, the same as his overall talent. You can't blame a WR for failing to win a superbowl.

True, I personally can't question his heart and dedication but his teamates are qualified to do that and that is well documented. Not just media hype.All I am saying is Monk, Irvin, Thurman Thomas, John Stallworth, etc all had HOF numbers when they left the game and they were certainly not first ballot HOFers.

 

[dagogrease]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

One of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen? You must be Randy's mom, because i cant see how anyone can be this bias. Sorry, but you've dissapointed FBG.com, not the other way around.

I'm sorry man, but if you don't consider Randy Moss one of the greatest individual athletes to play in this league, it isn't worth the time to argue with you.

Agreed...it isn't woth my time.

 

[Franknbeans]

He's no Lynn Swann

 

[Raider Nation]

Most of you are arguing for or against Randy's HoF chances if he retired today. That wasn't the point of the thread. The ONLY thing I'm wondering is, if you are a Hall of Fame voter, will his reputation (in many people's eyes) as a "quitter" -- either quitting on teams or quitting on plays, warranted or not, hurt his case?

 

[Raider Nation]

This is a :honda:*edit*It's possible it was rolled off though. But I know I've seen this before.

Keep us updated, officer.

 

[Raider Nation]

I don't think his actions will hurt his vote total. LT got in and he wasn't exactly a model citizen.

Apples and oranges.LT's issues were off-field only. On the field, he was a balls-out ###-kicker all the time.

It's an insult to Taylor to even mention him in the same sentence with Moss.

 

[Raider Nation]

' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:31 PM' post='5702197']ask Pete Rose if a persons actions can damage their changes at the Hall of Fame.

Their situations are a BIT different...

 

[Phurfur]

He has solid work ethic.

I never hear anyone say this of Moss. I think his work ethic is what make him a below average receiver today.

 

[dslaw]

Apples and oranges.

LT's issues were off-field only. On the field, he was a balls-out ###-kicker all the time.

It's an insult to Taylor to even mention him in the same sentence with Moss.

In your OP you mention Moss' off field activities may be a factor so mentioning LT doesn't seem to be apples to oranges. I will agree 100% that LT, on the field, was a HOF player - mentioned in any argument about the best of all time. His off field activites were the only negatives mentioned leading to his vote but he still got in. I think Moss will invoke some of the same things with his off field antics as well as his taking plays off. But if LT is an example of how football HOF voters look at anything besides on field production I think Moss gets in IF his numbers support it. His running over traffic cops, taking plays off, etc. won't matter 1 iota if he catches 900 passes for 150 TDs.

 

[Assani Fisher]

He is already a lock, anyone saying otherwise simply hasn't looked at the stats he has put up over his career. +--------------------------+-------------------------+ | Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1998 min | 16 | 1 4 4.0 0 | 69 1313 19.0 17 || 1999 min | 16 | 4 43 10.8 0 | 80 1413 17.7 11 || 2000 min | 16 | 3 5 1.7 0 | 77 1437 18.7 15 || 2001 min | 16 | 3 38 12.7 0 | 82 1233 15.0 10 || 2002 min | 16 | 6 51 8.5 0 | 106 1347 12.7 7 || 2003 min | 16 | 6 18 3.0 0 | 111 1632 14.7 17 || 2004 min | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 49 767 15.7 13 || 2005 oak | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 60 1005 16.8 8 || 2006 oak | 4 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 12 136 11.3 2 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 129 | 23 159 6.9 0 | 646 10283 15.9 100 |The guy is 5th in career TD's for crying out loud, he is beyond a lock, he is a first ballot lock. By the end of his career, only Jerry Rice(and possibly Harrison) will be considered a better WR.

Seriously anyone saying that hes anything but a first ballot lock is just silly. To bring up MOnk(and I'm a Redskins fan) is ridiculous. Monk was an above average WR: Moss was a ground breaking WR and perhaps the greatest of all time.

 

[Assani Fisher]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

I'm sorry you feel that you are the be all and end all of HOF discussions. IMO, talent and stats only get you so far in this league and you need heart and dedication to be a Hall of Famer and Randy Moss NEVER had that. If that's irrational, so be it.

I really don't understand where you all get this from. Sure he admitted to taking plays off, but heres the thing: Most star players take plays off when they're not involved too much in the play. And not just in football. Take a look at some basketball stars who rest on defense. The simple fact is that the human body just can't go all out 100% on every single play and still be able to play at your peak when your team needs you to come up big late in the 4th quarter. Moss just told the truth.

 

[Assani Fisher]

I'm done with this thread, and I simply can't believe a rational individual would question the abilities and HOF credentials of one of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen. FBG's has dissapointed me.

One of the best athletes the NFL has ever seen? You must be Randy's mom, because i cant see how anyone can be this bias. Sorry, but you've dissapointed FBG.com, not the other way around.

You're just making yourself look bad now.

 

[Sinrman]

As ones like Peter King argue -- they are judged by their ON field contributions. Off field stuff is not allowed in their final decisions. This is why ones, like Michael Irvin, I feel will make it in. He had his share of off field issues, but will eventually make it in. I think Moss will make it in eventually if he were to retire today. His lack of rings is what would hold him back some...

 

[MarshallRob]

A number of posters defending Moss have noted that his actions are being overdramatized by the media and that it's the media that's unfairly portraying Moss as a villain. To me that's clear proof that Moss' Hall of Fame chances have been severely damaged by his recent actions. Why? Because it's the MEDIA who comprise the Hall of Fame voters, specifically sportswriters. If you've read or heard Mike Wilbon, John Clayton, Len Pasquerelli, Peter King, Dr. Z or any of the other people on this list rip Moss lately, then he might not be a lock.

 

[Bri]

Most of you are arguing for or against Randy's HoF chances if he retired today. That wasn't the point of the thread. The ONLY thing I'm wondering is, if you are a Hall of Fame voter, will his reputation (in many people's eyes) as a "quitter" -- either quitting on teams or quitting on plays, warranted or not, hurt his case?

I know a few PFWA members(you know at least one) and I don't think they'll say he's shamed the sport. It'd have to be rrreal negative to hinder him going in.

 

[TitusIII]

A number of posters defending Moss have noted that his actions are being overdramatized by the media and that it's the media that's unfairly portraying Moss as a villain. To me that's clear proof that Moss' Hall of Fame chances have been severely damaged by his recent actions. Why? Because it's the MEDIA who comprise the Hall of Fame voters, specifically sportswriters. If you've read or heard Mike Wilbon, John Clayton, Len Pasquerelli, Peter King, Dr. Z or any of the other people on this list rip Moss lately, then he might not be a lock.

It's a joke some of these guys have a HOF vote. Production on the field is the only thing should matter, and Moss has dominated the game from day 1.

 

[Raider Nation]

Apples and oranges.

LT's issues were off-field only. On the field, he was a balls-out ###-kicker all the time.

It's an insult to Taylor to even mention him in the same sentence with Moss.

In your OP you mention Moss' off field activities may be a factor so mentioning LT doesn't seem to be apples to oranges.

That's a fair point, so allow me to clarify.Moss had trouble off the field AND he could be viewed as a quitter/loafer.

L.T. had trouble off the field BUT he was all-business, all the time on the field, and would rather die than lose a game.

That's all I'm sayin'.