Could we have TEN future HOF QBs playing this year? (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

I know some of you HATE this...But the HOF would need to be on bath salts to let Rivers in there as it stands now.

Please let me know if you will continue mentioning bath salts in every post. I have an ignore button and I'm not afraid to use it.

 

[Tau837]

I know some of you HATE this...But the HOF would need to be on bath salts to let Rivers in there as it stands now.

Please let me know if you will continue mentioning bath salts in every post. I have an ignore button and I'm not afraid to use it.

Most annoying schtick of this offseason.

 

[Raider Nation]

Anyway, back to the fun. Let's pick random Marino/Rivers seasons exactly 20 years apart.

Marino - 1988 - 27 years old

354-606 (58.4%) ... 4,434 yards ... 28 TD, 23 INT

Rivers - 2008 - 27 years old

312-478 (65.3%) ... 4,009 yards ... 34 TD, 11 INT

So Marino gets extra credit for throwing the ball more than anyone else in 1988? And Rivers gets downgraded because he threw it as much as any other team in the league in 2008? Forget the fact that there are skilled DBs all over the field on passing downs in this era while Marino had his 3rd WR being covered by a safety.

It's easy to throw around insults then run away. But I'd rather someone maturely explain why Marino's passing stats are somehow more important than Rivers'. "Marino played in a running era" is not a valid answer. So we'll upgrade all of Adrian Peterson's stats because he plays in a passing era?

I want to make one thing clear, though. Dan Marino is the best QB I've ever seen.

But this "we can't compare eras" argument is tired.

 

[rizzler]

I know some of you HATE this...

But the HOF would need to be on bath salts to let Rivers in there as it stands now.

Please let me know if you will continue mentioning bath salts in every post. I have an ignore button and I'm not afraid to use it.

I stand by the statement.Please let me know if you plan on making further ludicrous statements such as comparing Marino to Rivers.

In fact, Id like to make the argument that Arian Foster can be considered a near lock for the HOF. Potentially the best RB of all time.

In Arian Fosters first two seasons of starting, he has amassed 4061 total yds and 30tds

Walter Payton: 3660yds and 29tds

I mean, do I even have to say any more? FOster is doing this in the era OF PASSING!! Best everz

 

[Raider Nation]

I know some of you HATE this...

But the HOF would need to be on bath salts to let Rivers in there as it stands now.

Please let me know if you will continue mentioning bath salts in every post. I have an ignore button and I'm not afraid to use it.

I stand by the statement.Please let me know if you plan on making further ludicrous statements such as comparing Marino to Rivers.

In fact, Id like to make the argument that Arian Foster can be considered a near lock for the HOF. Potentially the best RB of all time.

In Arian Fosters first two seasons of starting, he has amassed 4061 total yds and 30tds

Walter Payton: 3660yds and 29tds

I mean, do I even have to say any more? FOster is doing this in the era OF PASSING!! Best everz

I'll miss you!

 

[rizzler]

I'll miss you!

What about the numbers?I guess seeing someone else apply your mindboggling logic was too much to bear.

 

[Beerguzzler]

Numbers wise no one can deny Rivers is worthy. He has better stats then both Eli and Roth.

 

[drummer]

Let's look at the 2 SB ring thing a different way. Say any of the following wins 2 rings in the next few years:Ryan Fitzgerald - BUFMatt Schaub - HOUAlex Smith - SFJoe Flacco - BALMatt Hasselbeck - TENMike Vick - PHICarson Palmer - OAKWould those guys become lock HOFers if they won back to back titles?

I can say for certain if SF wins two consecutive Super Bowls it won't be because Alex Smith suddenly became John Elway. Because he won't.

 

[David Yudkin]

Anyway, back to the fun. Let's pick random Marino/Rivers seasons exactly 20 years apart.

Marino - 1988 - 27 years old

354-606 (58.4%) ... 4,434 yards ... 28 TD, 23 INT

Rivers - 2008 - 27 years old

312-478 (65.3%) ... 4,009 yards ... 34 TD, 11 INT

So Marino gets extra credit for throwing the ball more than anyone else in 1988? And Rivers gets downgraded because he threw it as much as any other team in the league in 2008? Forget the fact that there are skilled DBs all over the field on passing downs in this era while Marino had his 3rd WR being covered by a safety.

It's easy to throw around insults then run away. But I'd rather someone maturely explain why Marino's passing stats are somehow more important than Rivers'. "Marino played in a running era" is not a valid answer. So we'll upgrade all of Adrian Peterson's stats because he plays in a passing era?

I want to make one thing clear, though. Dan Marino is the best QB I've ever seen.

But this "we can't compare eras" argument is tired.

I think what you are missing is that the actual numbers in each year comparing eras are less significant than the annual RANKINGS in comparing players.Looking at Top 5 finishes in the following categories:

completions, completion%, passing yds, passing TD, YPA, passer rating

Rivers

completions - 2

completion% - 1

passing yds - 2

passing TD - 2

YPA - 3

passer rating - 3

TOTAL: 13 times in 6 seasons as a starter (but 8 seasons total)

Marino

completions - 12

completion% - 5

passing yds - 11

passing TD - 8

YPA - 4

passer rating - 6

TOTAL: 46 times in 17 seasons (with one and a half years total time lost due to injury)

Rivers has been more efficient that Marino was, and if Rivers were to keep playing at a high level for another 9 seasons he might have a lot more Top 5 rankings. Similarly, maybe if the Chargers passed more he might have higher rankings, too, but it's not like the Chargers have been a run first and run some more type of team.

IMO, that's a better way to compare players in different era than just looking at the raw numbers.

As for the Romo / Rivers comparison, I think it's funny that Romo gets written up for not having won anything, yet Rivers gets a pass and is the one that is irreplaceable. Given that in most years the AFC West has stuggled to field teams with winning records (KC was the only 10 win team in the division besides the Chargers in the Rivers era and accomplished that one time), the Chargers should have been set up to make the playoffs every season. But the past two years they didn't make it when the division was soft as ever.

 

[3nOut]

I think your list is pretty solid except the rookies/Newton - let them play 5 years at least.

Thanks, but I wish people would understand the point of this exercise.If there was a generic "Who is on track for the Hall of Fame?" thread, I wouldn't have mentioned Stafford, Newton or Luck. But for the purposes of this thread ("Will there be 10 future Hall-of-Famers playing this fall?"), I have to go out on the limb and make some gut calls[/]b.

then might as well add one more11. Matt Ryan (if, say, he wins two rings in the next few years)

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Interesting topic.

I agree the three locks (are in if they died tomorrow) are Brees, Brady, P.Manning. But I think Eli/Big Ben/Rodgers simply have to hold serve for the remainder of their careers to gain entry meaning that if they put up 5-6 more years of what they've been doing, they'll be in. The franchises and the cities they play in matter in this case. New York, Pittsurgh and Green Bay are Tier 1 NFL franchises/cities and having the primary player that defined them during a time of prosperity will get them in.

So right there you have 6.

But after that?

Rivers - very good QB, but has really not done anything that other QB's haven't done. Has he been efficient? yes, but not the most efficient? Has he been prolific? Yes, but not the most prolific? Has he been successful...meh...Doesn't even have a SB appearance. He needs to raise his game just to get into the bottom end of the HOF conversation.

In projecting Newton/Stafford/Luck/RGIII, there simply isn't enough of a body of work. I remember after Matt Ryan's rookie year how the comparisons to Peyton and Brady were almost assumed. Now, he doesn't even warrant much of a mention in this type of hypothetical conversation...not should he. It's just to say that the road each of these QB's has to travel just to get to where Eli/BB/Rodgers is sooooo long that quite frankly, they haven't travelled much farther on it than say Jake Locker. IMO, it makes more sense to put Vick as a candidate than any of these guys.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Huge SD homer and no way, no how is Rivers a HOF QB.

I also dont think Eli or Big Ben are, sure they won super bowls, but to me they are not HOF players. But the logo's on the side of their helmets will ease their way in.

 

[Hear-the-Footsteps]

Rivers has put up excellent numbers but hasn't won anything

Eli and Ben obviously have a couple of rings, but...

So are rings important or aren't they?

IMO, two rings is not a lock to make the HOF. If either of these two played for a lot more years, posted a sub .500 record each year, and posted below average annual stats or with a lot of turnovers, I don't think that helps their cause. Again IMO, other than their rings, their other credentials are mostly non existent. They don't have eye popping stats, they generally have been ignored in MVP balloting, they have not been regular All Pro or Pro Bowl winners, etc. I realize saying they "just" won two Super Bowls sounds a bit whacky and makes it sound like it's easy to accomplish, but the rest of what I said rings true. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't . . .

Doesn't have eye-popping stats? He threw for 4,933 yards last yr. That was ignored due to what Brady and Brees did. But 4,933 is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, do you know how many QBs have more than that in one season? Just four. FOUR. Out of hundreds and hundreds to play the game. The season moved to 16 games in 1978. So there have been over 30 seasons played since then, with numerous QBs, and only 4 QBs have put up more.That's in addition to his two SB rings. Btw, both rings were accompanied by SB MVP trophies. Btw, one of those SB wins was against the 18-0 Pats.

At his current rate, he will finish with more than 50,000 passing yards. Only four QBs currently have 50k+ passing yards. So that would put him 5th.

At his current pace, he will finish with more than 300 TDs. Only six QBs currently have 300+ passing TDs.

Last year he broke the record for most 4th Qtr passing TDs (15), passing Peyton and Unitas (both 14).

I'd say 4,933 passing yards in one season, 2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs, pace to hit 50k passing yds, pace to hit 300+ passing tds, etc is better stats than most realize. He just does it quietly. Even being in NY - he does not look for the spotlight, he does not remind you of how great he is all the time. He just quietly does his thing.

 

[Shutout]

Rivers has put up excellent numbers but hasn't won anything Eli and Ben obviously have a couple of rings, but...

So are rings important or aren't they?

IMO, two rings is not a lock to make the HOF. If either of these two played for a lot more years, posted a sub .500 record each year, and posted below average annual stats or with a lot of turnovers, I don't think that helps their cause. Again IMO, other than their rings, their other credentials are mostly non existent. They don't have eye popping stats, they generally have been ignored in MVP balloting, they have not been regular All Pro or Pro Bowl winners, etc. I realize saying they "just" won two Super Bowls sounds a bit whacky and makes it sound like it's easy to accomplish, but the rest of what I said rings true. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't . . .

I don't think it will matter in Eli's case because his last name is Manning and he plays in NY. Just the short and simple of it.the other thing that I think is working in Eli and Ben's favor is because they DO play in an era of a large number of really good QBs, they can get a pass for not being in the MVP talks. Somewhere down the line, if that came up as a negative, there will be people saying "What do you expect? They played in the Manning/Favre/Brady era...nobody else has MVPs in that era." In the past 9 seasons, Brady and Manning have 6 of the awards so they, by themselves have monopolized the award 2/3 of the time. Rivers is the guy on the outside looking in. He hasn't got a strong enough case of any of the big three (SB wins, Playoff wins, or individual accolades). I agree, he is one of the best in the league, but as of today, he has NO chance of getting into the HOF.

 

[David Yudkin]

Rivers has put up excellent numbers but hasn't won anything

Eli and Ben obviously have a couple of rings, but...

So are rings important or aren't they?

IMO, two rings is not a lock to make the HOF. If either of these two played for a lot more years, posted a sub .500 record each year, and posted below average annual stats or with a lot of turnovers, I don't think that helps their cause. Again IMO, other than their rings, their other credentials are mostly non existent. They don't have eye popping stats, they generally have been ignored in MVP balloting, they have not been regular All Pro or Pro Bowl winners, etc. I realize saying they "just" won two Super Bowls sounds a bit whacky and makes it sound like it's easy to accomplish, but the rest of what I said rings true. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't . . .

Doesn't have eye-popping stats? He threw for 4,933 yards last yr. That was ignored due to what Brady and Brees did. But 4,933 is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, do you know how many QBs have more than that in one season? Just four. FOUR. Out of hundreds and hundreds to play the game. The season moved to 16 games in 1978. So there have been over 30 seasons played since then, with numerous QBs, and only 4 QBs have put up more.That's in addition to his two SB rings. Btw, both rings were accompanied by SB MVP trophies. Btw, one of those SB wins was against the 18-0 Pats.

At his current rate, he will finish with more than 50,000 passing yards. Only four QBs currently have 50k+ passing yards. So that would put him 5th.

At his current pace, he will finish with more than 300 TDs. Only six QBs currently have 300+ passing TDs.

Last year he broke the record for most 4th Qtr passing TDs (15), passing Peyton and Unitas (both 14).

I'd say 4,933 passing yards in one season, 2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs, pace to hit 50k passing yds, pace to hit 300+ passing tds, etc is better stats than most realize. He just does it quietly. Even being in NY - he does not look for the spotlight, he does not remind you of how great he is all the time. He just quietly does his thing.

No one will suggest Eli didn't have a monster year last year . . . but that was one HOF worthy regular season. No one can take away his two SB rings, but if he is not involved in two miracle receptions and the Giants went on to lose both games, we would not be having this discussion at all.To put things in perspective, since Eli joined the league, he ranks 17th in passing yards per game. He ranks 9th in TD per game, but realistically anywhere from 7th to 14th is about the same (a difference of 0.04 TD per game). And he's 27th in ypa in that time span.

Sure, his career numbers may look good when he's done . . . but so will most other QBs from this era.

Basically, Eli had one monster year and two miracle plays as his best selling points on his resume. If that makes him a HOFer, so be it.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Rivers has put up excellent numbers but hasn't won anything

Eli and Ben obviously have a couple of rings, but...

So are rings important or aren't they?

IMO, two rings is not a lock to make the HOF. If either of these two played for a lot more years, posted a sub .500 record each year, and posted below average annual stats or with a lot of turnovers, I don't think that helps their cause. Again IMO, other than their rings, their other credentials are mostly non existent. They don't have eye popping stats, they generally have been ignored in MVP balloting, they have not been regular All Pro or Pro Bowl winners, etc. I realize saying they "just" won two Super Bowls sounds a bit whacky and makes it sound like it's easy to accomplish, but the rest of what I said rings true. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't . . .

Doesn't have eye-popping stats? He threw for 4,933 yards last yr. That was ignored due to what Brady and Brees did. But 4,933 is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, do you know how many QBs have more than that in one season? Just four. FOUR. Out of hundreds and hundreds to play the game. The season moved to 16 games in 1978. So there have been over 30 seasons played since then, with numerous QBs, and only 4 QBs have put up more.That's in addition to his two SB rings. Btw, both rings were accompanied by SB MVP trophies. Btw, one of those SB wins was against the 18-0 Pats.

At his current rate, he will finish with more than 50,000 passing yards. Only four QBs currently have 50k+ passing yards. So that would put him 5th.

At his current pace, he will finish with more than 300 TDs. Only six QBs currently have 300+ passing TDs.

Last year he broke the record for most 4th Qtr passing TDs (15), passing Peyton and Unitas (both 14).

I'd say 4,933 passing yards in one season, 2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs, pace to hit 50k passing yds, pace to hit 300+ passing tds, etc is better stats than most realize. He just does it quietly. Even being in NY - he does not look for the spotlight, he does not remind you of how great he is all the time. He just quietly does his thing.

No one will suggest Eli didn't have a monster year last year . . . but that was one HOF worthy regular season. No one can take away his two SB rings, but if he is not involved in two miracle receptions and the Giants went on to lose both games, we would not be having this discussion at all.To put things in perspective, since Eli joined the league, he ranks 17th in passing yards per game. He ranks 9th in TD per game, but realistically anywhere from 7th to 14th is about the same (a difference of 0.04 TD per game). And he's 27th in ypa in that time span.

Sure, his career numbers may look good when he's done . . . but so will most other QBs from this era.

Basically, Eli had one monster year and two miracle plays as his best selling points on his resume. If that makes him a HOFer, so be it.

I only remember 1 miracle catch to be honest, what other one are you chalking up as a "fluke"

 

[David Yudkin]

Rivers has put up excellent numbers but hasn't won anything

Eli and Ben obviously have a couple of rings, but...

So are rings important or aren't they?

IMO, two rings is not a lock to make the HOF. If either of these two played for a lot more years, posted a sub .500 record each year, and posted below average annual stats or with a lot of turnovers, I don't think that helps their cause. Again IMO, other than their rings, their other credentials are mostly non existent. They don't have eye popping stats, they generally have been ignored in MVP balloting, they have not been regular All Pro or Pro Bowl winners, etc. I realize saying they "just" won two Super Bowls sounds a bit whacky and makes it sound like it's easy to accomplish, but the rest of what I said rings true. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't . . .

Doesn't have eye-popping stats? He threw for 4,933 yards last yr. That was ignored due to what Brady and Brees did. But 4,933 is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, do you know how many QBs have more than that in one season? Just four. FOUR. Out of hundreds and hundreds to play the game. The season moved to 16 games in 1978. So there have been over 30 seasons played since then, with numerous QBs, and only 4 QBs have put up more.That's in addition to his two SB rings. Btw, both rings were accompanied by SB MVP trophies. Btw, one of those SB wins was against the 18-0 Pats.

At his current rate, he will finish with more than 50,000 passing yards. Only four QBs currently have 50k+ passing yards. So that would put him 5th.

At his current pace, he will finish with more than 300 TDs. Only six QBs currently have 300+ passing TDs.

Last year he broke the record for most 4th Qtr passing TDs (15), passing Peyton and Unitas (both 14).

I'd say 4,933 passing yards in one season, 2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs, pace to hit 50k passing yds, pace to hit 300+ passing tds, etc is better stats than most realize. He just does it quietly. Even being in NY - he does not look for the spotlight, he does not remind you of how great he is all the time. He just quietly does his thing.

No one will suggest Eli didn't have a monster year last year . . . but that was one HOF worthy regular season. No one can take away his two SB rings, but if he is not involved in two miracle receptions and the Giants went on to lose both games, we would not be having this discussion at all.To put things in perspective, since Eli joined the league, he ranks 17th in passing yards per game. He ranks 9th in TD per game, but realistically anywhere from 7th to 14th is about the same (a difference of 0.04 TD per game). And he's 27th in ypa in that time span.

Sure, his career numbers may look good when he's done . . . but so will most other QBs from this era.

Basically, Eli had one monster year and two miracle plays as his best selling points on his resume. If that makes him a HOFer, so be it.

I only remember 1 miracle catch to be honest, what other one are you chalking up as a "fluke"

Catch off a helmet in first game, sideline heave last game.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Rivers has put up excellent numbers but hasn't won anything

Eli and Ben obviously have a couple of rings, but...

So are rings important or aren't they?

IMO, two rings is not a lock to make the HOF. If either of these two played for a lot more years, posted a sub .500 record each year, and posted below average annual stats or with a lot of turnovers, I don't think that helps their cause. Again IMO, other than their rings, their other credentials are mostly non existent. They don't have eye popping stats, they generally have been ignored in MVP balloting, they have not been regular All Pro or Pro Bowl winners, etc. I realize saying they "just" won two Super Bowls sounds a bit whacky and makes it sound like it's easy to accomplish, but the rest of what I said rings true. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't . . .

Doesn't have eye-popping stats? He threw for 4,933 yards last yr. That was ignored due to what Brady and Brees did. But 4,933 is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, do you know how many QBs have more than that in one season? Just four. FOUR. Out of hundreds and hundreds to play the game. The season moved to 16 games in 1978. So there have been over 30 seasons played since then, with numerous QBs, and only 4 QBs have put up more.That's in addition to his two SB rings. Btw, both rings were accompanied by SB MVP trophies. Btw, one of those SB wins was against the 18-0 Pats.

At his current rate, he will finish with more than 50,000 passing yards. Only four QBs currently have 50k+ passing yards. So that would put him 5th.

At his current pace, he will finish with more than 300 TDs. Only six QBs currently have 300+ passing TDs.

Last year he broke the record for most 4th Qtr passing TDs (15), passing Peyton and Unitas (both 14).

I'd say 4,933 passing yards in one season, 2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs, pace to hit 50k passing yds, pace to hit 300+ passing tds, etc is better stats than most realize. He just does it quietly. Even being in NY - he does not look for the spotlight, he does not remind you of how great he is all the time. He just quietly does his thing.

No one will suggest Eli didn't have a monster year last year . . . but that was one HOF worthy regular season. No one can take away his two SB rings, but if he is not involved in two miracle receptions and the Giants went on to lose both games, we would not be having this discussion at all.To put things in perspective, since Eli joined the league, he ranks 17th in passing yards per game. He ranks 9th in TD per game, but realistically anywhere from 7th to 14th is about the same (a difference of 0.04 TD per game). And he's 27th in ypa in that time span.

Sure, his career numbers may look good when he's done . . . but so will most other QBs from this era.

Basically, Eli had one monster year and two miracle plays as his best selling points on his resume. If that makes him a HOFer, so be it.

I only remember 1 miracle catch to be honest, what other one are you chalking up as a "fluke"

Catch off a helmet in first game, sideline heave last game.

not a miracle. tyree sure, that catch in the last SB, a good play. maybe a little luck but nothing like Tyree.Eli has 2 rings and some nice stats, like you quoted about his place among his peers stat wise isnt that great. He is probably a lock though.

What about Coughlin? he has to deserve some consideration.

 

[Borden]

Rivers:

GP - 100

Yards - 24,285

TD's - 163

INT's - 78

Carson Palmer

GP - 107

Yards - 25,447

TD's - 168

INT's - 116

Take what you will from this.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Rivers: GP - 100Yards - 24,285TD's - 163INT's - 78Carson PalmerGP - 107Yards - 25,447TD's - 168INT's - 116Take what you will from this.

looks like Carson has thrown alot of Ints

 

[Raider Nation]

Anyway, back to the fun. Let's pick random Marino/Rivers seasons exactly 20 years apart.

Marino - 1988 - 27 years old

354-606 (58.4%) ... 4,434 yards ... 28 TD, 23 INT

Rivers - 2008 - 27 years old

312-478 (65.3%) ... 4,009 yards ... 34 TD, 11 INT

So Marino gets extra credit for throwing the ball more than anyone else in 1988? And Rivers gets downgraded because he threw it as much as any other team in the league in 2008? Forget the fact that there are skilled DBs all over the field on passing downs in this era while Marino had his 3rd WR being covered by a safety.

It's easy to throw around insults then run away. But I'd rather someone maturely explain why Marino's passing stats are somehow more important than Rivers'. "Marino played in a running era" is not a valid answer. So we'll upgrade all of Adrian Peterson's stats because he plays in a passing era?

I want to make one thing clear, though. Dan Marino is the best QB I've ever seen.

But this "we can't compare eras" argument is tired.

I think what you are missing is that the actual numbers in each year comparing eras are less significant than the annual RANKINGS in comparing players.Looking at Top 5 finishes in the following categories:

completions, completion%, passing yds, passing TD, YPA, passer rating

Rivers

completions - 2

completion% - 1

passing yds - 2

passing TD - 2

YPA - 3

passer rating - 3

TOTAL: 13 times in 6 seasons as a starter (but 8 seasons total)

Marino

completions - 12

completion% - 5

passing yds - 11

passing TD - 8

YPA - 4

passer rating - 6

TOTAL: 46 times in 17 seasons (with one and a half years total time lost due to injury)

Rivers has been more efficient that Marino was, and if Rivers were to keep playing at a high level for another 9 seasons he might have a lot more Top 5 rankings. Similarly, maybe if the Chargers passed more he might have higher rankings, too, but it's not like the Chargers have been a run first and run some more type of team.

IMO, that's a better way to compare players in different era than just looking at the raw numbers.

As for the Romo / Rivers comparison, I think it's funny that Romo gets written up for not having won anything, yet Rivers gets a pass and is the one that is irreplaceable. Given that in most years the AFC West has stuggled to field teams with winning records (KC was the only 10 win team in the division besides the Chargers in the Rivers era and accomplished that one time), the Chargers should have been set up to make the playoffs every season. But the past two years they didn't make it when the division was soft as ever.

David, we're going in circles here. Again, I feel like I have to qualify every post to avoid shrapnel. Dan Marino is a LEGEND and I'm not disrespecting him. That said, don't you think it's expected that he would constantly be in the Top-5 in completions, passing yards and pass TDs when he is throwing the ball twice as much as most other teams?And to JWB's point about us being unable to fairly compare teams playing 20 years apart... is that ALL 20 year periods or arbitrary 20-year periods? For instance, will it be outlandish to compare a team's passing stats in 2019 to the Rams in 1999? I can't see the passing game evolving THAT much in the next seven years, to the point where it would make The Greatest Show on Turf look like an old Otto Graham film.

 

[Ghost Rider]

No one will suggest Eli didn't have a monster year last year . . . but that was one HOF worthy regular season. No one can take away his two SB rings, but if he is not involved in two miracle receptions and the Giants went on to lose both games, we would not be having this discussion at all.

If Tom Brady didn't have Adam Vinatieri back in the day, he might have zero Super Bowl wins. But he did have and he does. Just like Eli did win those games, so who cares about what would have happened had he lost them both? And calling the Manningham reception a miracle catch is laughable.

 

[meatwad1]

Let's look at the 2 SB ring thing a different way. Say any of the following wins 2 rings in the next few years:Ryan Fitzgerald - BUFMatt Schaub - HOUAlex Smith - SFJoe Flacco - BALMatt Hasselbeck - TENMike Vick - PHICarson Palmer - OAKWould those guys become lock HOFers if they won back to back titles?

I get your point, but you're being a bit ridiculous.It's not as if Ben and Eli SUCK aside from their two rings.

None of those aforementioned guys suck either. I will say this though, since the NFL HoF has a lower bar than MLB, I feel the Eli and Ben are in if they play out their careers they way they are going. The only reason Eli was not Pro Bowl is because he only threw around 30 tds instead of the 40 plus that Brees and Rodgers threw. Rodgers is probably in with one more great year, he has had one MVP season and a SuperBowl, so he still has a little work to do. Brees, Peyton, and Brady are the only sure locks. Rivers? No way. Stafford? Not a chance, he is a Matt Ryan/Schaub level player thus far. Newton? You have to win games. Luck? Bust.

 

[Raider Nation]

God willing, I can't wait to bump this thread in 12 years when Rivers gets in.

 

[meatwad1]

Rivers has put up excellent numbers but hasn't won anything

Eli and Ben obviously have a couple of rings, but...

So are rings important or aren't they?

IMO, two rings is not a lock to make the HOF. If either of these two played for a lot more years, posted a sub .500 record each year, and posted below average annual stats or with a lot of turnovers, I don't think that helps their cause. Again IMO, other than their rings, their other credentials are mostly non existent. They don't have eye popping stats, they generally have been ignored in MVP balloting, they have not been regular All Pro or Pro Bowl winners, etc. I realize saying they "just" won two Super Bowls sounds a bit whacky and makes it sound like it's easy to accomplish, but the rest of what I said rings true. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't . . .

Doesn't have eye-popping stats? He threw for 4,933 yards last yr. That was ignored due to what Brady and Brees did. But 4,933 is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, do you know how many QBs have more than that in one season? Just four. FOUR. Out of hundreds and hundreds to play the game. The season moved to 16 games in 1978. So there have been over 30 seasons played since then, with numerous QBs, and only 4 QBs have put up more.That's in addition to his two SB rings. Btw, both rings were accompanied by SB MVP trophies. Btw, one of those SB wins was against the 18-0 Pats.

At his current rate, he will finish with more than 50,000 passing yards. Only four QBs currently have 50k+ passing yards. So that would put him 5th.

At his current pace, he will finish with more than 300 TDs. Only six QBs currently have 300+ passing TDs.

Last year he broke the record for most 4th Qtr passing TDs (15), passing Peyton and Unitas (both 14).

I'd say 4,933 passing yards in one season, 2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs, pace to hit 50k passing yds, pace to hit 300+ passing tds, etc is better stats than most realize. He just does it quietly. Even being in NY - he does not look for the spotlight, he does not remind you of how great he is all the time. He just quietly does his thing.

Eli is way underrated. Most likely because everyone almost expects him to be a worse version of his brother. I am not even a Giants fan and aside from the stats, both SB runs were legendary, with multiple wins over great teams on the road. That, in and of itself should put you within striking distance of the hall.

 

[meatwad1]

Rivers has put up excellent numbers but hasn't won anything

Eli and Ben obviously have a couple of rings, but...

So are rings important or aren't they?

IMO, two rings is not a lock to make the HOF. If either of these two played for a lot more years, posted a sub .500 record each year, and posted below average annual stats or with a lot of turnovers, I don't think that helps their cause. Again IMO, other than their rings, their other credentials are mostly non existent. They don't have eye popping stats, they generally have been ignored in MVP balloting, they have not been regular All Pro or Pro Bowl winners, etc. I realize saying they "just" won two Super Bowls sounds a bit whacky and makes it sound like it's easy to accomplish, but the rest of what I said rings true. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't . . .

Doesn't have eye-popping stats? He threw for 4,933 yards last yr. That was ignored due to what Brady and Brees did. But 4,933 is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, do you know how many QBs have more than that in one season? Just four. FOUR. Out of hundreds and hundreds to play the game. The season moved to 16 games in 1978. So there have been over 30 seasons played since then, with numerous QBs, and only 4 QBs have put up more.That's in addition to his two SB rings. Btw, both rings were accompanied by SB MVP trophies. Btw, one of those SB wins was against the 18-0 Pats.

At his current rate, he will finish with more than 50,000 passing yards. Only four QBs currently have 50k+ passing yards. So that would put him 5th.

At his current pace, he will finish with more than 300 TDs. Only six QBs currently have 300+ passing TDs.

Last year he broke the record for most 4th Qtr passing TDs (15), passing Peyton and Unitas (both 14).

I'd say 4,933 passing yards in one season, 2 SB rings, 2 SB MVPs, pace to hit 50k passing yds, pace to hit 300+ passing tds, etc is better stats than most realize. He just does it quietly. Even being in NY - he does not look for the spotlight, he does not remind you of how great he is all the time. He just quietly does his thing.

No one will suggest Eli didn't have a monster year last year . . . but that was one HOF worthy regular season. No one can take away his two SB rings, but if he is not involved in two miracle receptions and the Giants went on to lose both games, we would not be having this discussion at all.To put things in perspective, since Eli joined the league, he ranks 17th in passing yards per game. He ranks 9th in TD per game, but realistically anywhere from 7th to 14th is about the same (a difference of 0.04 TD per game). And he's 27th in ypa in that time span.

Sure, his career numbers may look good when he's done . . . but so will most other QBs from this era.

Basically, Eli had one monster year and two miracle plays as his best selling points on his resume. If that makes him a HOFer, so be it.

I only remember 1 miracle catch to be honest, what other one are you chalking up as a "fluke"

Catch off a helmet in first game, sideline heave last game.

not a miracle. tyree sure, that catch in the last SB, a good play. maybe a little luck but nothing like Tyree.Eli has 2 rings and some nice stats, like you quoted about his place among his peers stat wise isnt that great. He is probably a lock though.

What about Coughlin? he has to deserve some consideration.

Great qbs put their teams in position to have 'miracle' plays. Coughlin is for sure HoF...great coach.

 

[Modog814]

Ok don't laugh, but let's think about Tim Tebow for a moment. Completely unorthodox QB. But he willed the Broncos to massively overachieve last year. They had no business being in the second round of the playoffs. Let's imagine the guy becomes a decent passer, and continues to will future teams to overachieve. What happened last year then is not a fluke, it was a sign of things to come.

Anytime a young QB can do something special like Tebow did, I won't count him out.

he would need to win at least 3 superbowls as the starting qb to have a chancethe standard for qb's getting in is raising. steve young only passed for 4k yards once. if he put up those stats today, he wouldn't sniff the hall of fame.

it's all relative to their era. at the same time, the typical stats an rb would have to put up to get in will be much less in the future than it was in the past

peyton, rodgers, brees and brady are locks

i would need to see another superbowl and/or a big step up in production for eli or rothy to get in

rivers, cam and stafford are a looooong way off

luck is bust proof, he's already been running an nfl offense in college

rg3 is certainly not bust proof. he'll be good in ff because of his legs but i would be surprised if he became an elite nfl qb

Can we stop with the Rodgers is a lock stuff? This is his fifth season as a starter. Sure he's played great those first 4 years, but consider these two players per games stats to start their careers:

Rodgers: 21.7 Comp 33.1 Att 274.8 yards 2.1 TD .6 Int 18.1 yd rush .3 rush TD

Culpepper: 21.1 Comp 32.8 Att 254.8 yards 1.8 TD 1.01 Int 31.7 yd rus .4 rush TD

Culpepper is not going to the hall of fame. And yes, if Rodgers continues this for another 7-10 years, then yes, he'll be in the HOF, but he's far from being a lock.

 

[Raider Nation]

Ok don't laugh, but let's think about Tim Tebow for a moment. Completely unorthodox QB. But he willed the Broncos to massively overachieve last year. They had no business being in the second round of the playoffs. Let's imagine the guy becomes a decent passer, and continues to will future teams to overachieve. What happened last year then is not a fluke, it was a sign of things to come.

Anytime a young QB can do something special like Tebow did, I won't count him out.

he would need to win at least 3 superbowls as the starting qb to have a chancethe standard for qb's getting in is raising. steve young only passed for 4k yards once. if he put up those stats today, he wouldn't sniff the hall of fame.

it's all relative to their era. at the same time, the typical stats an rb would have to put up to get in will be much less in the future than it was in the past

peyton, rodgers, brees and brady are locks

i would need to see another superbowl and/or a big step up in production for eli or rothy to get in

rivers, cam and stafford are a looooong way off

luck is bust proof, he's already been running an nfl offense in college

rg3 is certainly not bust proof. he'll be good in ff because of his legs but i would be surprised if he became an elite nfl qb

Can we stop with the Rodgers is a lock stuff? This is his fifth season as a starter. Sure he's played great those first 4 years, but consider these two players per games stats to start their careers:

Rodgers: 21.7 Comp 33.1 Att 274.8 yards 2.1 TD .6 Int 18.1 yd rush .3 rush TD

Culpepper: 21.1 Comp 32.8 Att 254.8 yards 1.8 TD 1.01 Int 31.7 yd rus .4 rush TD

Culpepper is not going to the hall of fame. And yes, if Rodgers continues this for another 7-10 years, then yes, he'll be in the HOF, but he's far from being a lock.

Will Rodgers be losing Randy Moss in his prime?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

God willing, I can't wait to bump this thread in 12 years when Rivers gets in.

Ain't happenin'.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

Rivers: GP - 100Yards - 24,285TD's - 163INT's - 78Carson PalmerGP - 107Yards - 25,447TD's - 168INT's - 116Take what you will from this.

looks like Carson has thrown alot of Ints

Not to mention Carson has over 500 more passing attempts.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Ok don't laugh, but let's think about Tim Tebow for a moment. Completely unorthodox QB. But he willed the Broncos to massively overachieve last year. They had no business being in the second round of the playoffs. Let's imagine the guy becomes a decent passer, and continues to will future teams to overachieve. What happened last year then is not a fluke, it was a sign of things to come.

Anytime a young QB can do something special like Tebow did, I won't count him out.

he would need to win at least 3 superbowls as the starting qb to have a chancethe standard for qb's getting in is raising. steve young only passed for 4k yards once. if he put up those stats today, he wouldn't sniff the hall of fame.

it's all relative to their era. at the same time, the typical stats an rb would have to put up to get in will be much less in the future than it was in the past

peyton, rodgers, brees and brady are locks

i would need to see another superbowl and/or a big step up in production for eli or rothy to get in

rivers, cam and stafford are a looooong way off

luck is bust proof, he's already been running an nfl offense in college

rg3 is certainly not bust proof. he'll be good in ff because of his legs but i would be surprised if he became an elite nfl qb

Can we stop with the Rodgers is a lock stuff? This is his fifth season as a starter. Sure he's played great those first 4 years, but consider these two players per games stats to start their careers:

Rodgers: 21.7 Comp 33.1 Att 274.8 yards 2.1 TD .6 Int 18.1 yd rush .3 rush TD

Culpepper: 21.1 Comp 32.8 Att 254.8 yards 1.8 TD 1.01 Int 31.7 yd rus .4 rush TD

Culpepper is not going to the hall of fame. And yes, if Rodgers continues this for another 7-10 years, then yes, he'll be in the HOF, but he's far from being a lock.

I must have missed Culpeppers Superbowl

 

[meatwad1]

Ok don't laugh, but let's think about Tim Tebow for a moment. Completely unorthodox QB. But he willed the Broncos to massively overachieve last year. They had no business being in the second round of the playoffs. Let's imagine the guy becomes a decent passer, and continues to will future teams to overachieve. What happened last year then is not a fluke, it was a sign of things to come.

Anytime a young QB can do something special like Tebow did, I won't count him out.

he would need to win at least 3 superbowls as the starting qb to have a chancethe standard for qb's getting in is raising. steve young only passed for 4k yards once. if he put up those stats today, he wouldn't sniff the hall of fame.

it's all relative to their era. at the same time, the typical stats an rb would have to put up to get in will be much less in the future than it was in the past

peyton, rodgers, brees and brady are locks

i would need to see another superbowl and/or a big step up in production for eli or rothy to get in

rivers, cam and stafford are a looooong way off

luck is bust proof, he's already been running an nfl offense in college

rg3 is certainly not bust proof. he'll be good in ff because of his legs but i would be surprised if he became an elite nfl qb

Can we stop with the Rodgers is a lock stuff? This is his fifth season as a starter. Sure he's played great those first 4 years, but consider these two players per games stats to start their careers:

Rodgers: 21.7 Comp 33.1 Att 274.8 yards 2.1 TD .6 Int 18.1 yd rush .3 rush TD

Culpepper: 21.1 Comp 32.8 Att 254.8 yards 1.8 TD 1.01 Int 31.7 yd rus .4 rush TD

Culpepper is not going to the hall of fame. And yes, if Rodgers continues this for another 7-10 years, then yes, he'll be in the HOF, but he's far from being a lock.

Not a good comparison...as Rodgers has an MVP and a Super Bowl win, plus in my eyes gets points for replacing a lock hall of famer, which takes balls. Still..I believe he needs to give one or two more excellent seasons to be a lock, which only further reinforces how far away a guy like Rivers, Vick, Stafford, or Newton is.

 

[Modog814]

Ok don't laugh, but let's think about Tim Tebow for a moment. Completely unorthodox QB. But he willed the Broncos to massively overachieve last year. They had no business being in the second round of the playoffs. Let's imagine the guy becomes a decent passer, and continues to will future teams to overachieve. What happened last year then is not a fluke, it was a sign of things to come.

Anytime a young QB can do something special like Tebow did, I won't count him out.

he would need to win at least 3 superbowls as the starting qb to have a chancethe standard for qb's getting in is raising. steve young only passed for 4k yards once. if he put up those stats today, he wouldn't sniff the hall of fame.

it's all relative to their era. at the same time, the typical stats an rb would have to put up to get in will be much less in the future than it was in the past

peyton, rodgers, brees and brady are locks

i would need to see another superbowl and/or a big step up in production for eli or rothy to get in

rivers, cam and stafford are a looooong way off

luck is bust proof, he's already been running an nfl offense in college

rg3 is certainly not bust proof. he'll be good in ff because of his legs but i would be surprised if he became an elite nfl qb

Can we stop with the Rodgers is a lock stuff? This is his fifth season as a starter. Sure he's played great those first 4 years, but consider these two players per games stats to start their careers:

Rodgers: 21.7 Comp 33.1 Att 274.8 yards 2.1 TD .6 Int 18.1 yd rush .3 rush TD

Culpepper: 21.1 Comp 32.8 Att 254.8 yards 1.8 TD 1.01 Int 31.7 yd rus .4 rush TD

Culpepper is not going to the hall of fame. And yes, if Rodgers continues this for another 7-10 years, then yes, he'll be in the HOF, but he's far from being a lock.

Will Rodgers be losing Randy Moss in his prime?

Maybe? Anything can happen. Without a doubt he's on the path to the HOF, but he's not a lock to get in. If he doesn't play another day, he's not in. Thus he's not a lock. A lot can happen over the next 10 years and I'm not trying to disrespect what he's done, but I just don't know how you can say a guy is a lock for the hall of fame when his career isn't even half over.

 

[Modog814]

Not a good comparison...as Rodgers has an MVP and a Super Bowl win, plus in my eyes gets points for replacing a lock hall of famer, which takes balls. Still..I believe he needs to give one or two more excellent seasons to be a lock, which only further reinforces how far away a guy like Rivers, Vick, Stafford, or Newton is.

The comparison was more in terms of how a promising stat-filled career could quickly go awry. And unless the guy won the superbowl 3 or more times in his first 5 years, I don't think you can call him a lock.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Maybe? Anything can happen. Without a doubt he's on the path to the HOF, but he's not a lock to get in. If he doesn't play another day, he's not in. Thus he's not a lock. A lot can happen over the next 10 years and I'm not trying to disrespect what he's done, but I just don't know how you can say a guy is a lock for the hall of fame when his career isn't even half over.

The Culpepper comparison aside, I agree with you for the most part. Look at Terrell Davis. After four years in the NFL, he already had over 6,000 rushing yards, a regular season MVP award, a 2,000-yard season, a Super Bowl MVP award, two rings and was easily on pace to be one of the best running backs ever, but he tore an ACL early in the 1999 season and was never the same. You just never know.