Criminal Justice and Sexual Assault (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

Agreed. "Change societal attitudes" is a giant amorphous goal. Maybe it's just me thinking small but I feel like focusing on more specific achievable goals is a better way to move. Again, just me thinking here. 

I’d like to focus on that, too. But there isn’t, in my estimation, an achievable goal that really does much here. I’ll be dead before any really meaningful change happens on this issue.  In my opinion.  So maybe we can get the ball rolling on the non-achievable goals. And next generation can get closer. 

 

[The Indestructible]

And @Joe Bryant, as to my disagreement yesterday about how supportive this thread is...

yes, the majority of responses are in support of survivors.  But that’s absolutely to be expected.  A couple of people came in the argue.  I guarantee you that many, many more said “I disagree with Henry Ford, but I’m not coming out in favor of rapists.”  There were, at the last time I looked at this on a computer yesterday when the adversarial discussion started, over 600 views and about 100 replies.  Most of the replies were me.  A good chunk of those views were probably not supportive people.  But having someone come in and very clearly make arguments that were made is very telling about how prevalent the belief still is that “it’s rape, but it’s not the kind that deserves prison time.”

This thread would look very different if you changed only the title to "Rape Culture: How do we stop it?"

 

[Henry Ford]

Ok. I think then moving toward solutions, like discussing what you've already suggested there, is a way to move forward. 

Maybe it's just me wanting to "fix something", but addressing something specific like revictimizing is helpful if we recognize that as a specific problem. 

In my opinion, if you want to do a specific thing to help, talk to a survivor.  Believe her.  And ask her if there’s anything you can do for her. Then listen. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

And @Joe Bryant, as to my disagreement yesterday about how supportive this thread is...

yes, the majority of responses are in support of survivors.  But that’s absolutely to be expected.  A couple of people came in the argue.  I guarantee you that many, many more said “I disagree with Henry Ford, but I’m not coming out in favor of rapists.”  There were, at the last time I looked at this on a computer yesterday when the adversarial discussion started, over 600 views and about 100 replies.  Most of the replies were me.  A good chunk of those views were probably not supportive people.  But having someone come in and very clearly make arguments that were made is very telling about how prevalent the belief still is that “it’s rape, but it’s not the kind that deserves prison time.”

To be fair, the attitude it seemed to me you projected yesterday was anything questioning anything that wasn't in total support of your position was seen as "for rapists".

I obviously think it's a super important topic and one that I think a lot of people could benefit from. And it's why I said repeatedly I'd love to see a discussion on it. Especially the "inside" experience stuff you and the other people here that deal with this. My guess is it's like lots of things - there is wisdom to be gained from people who have experience in how things work. Sometimes, what is seen on the surface isn't indicative of how they work in reality. 

 

[Henry Ford]

This thread would look very different if you changed only the title to "Rape Culture: How do we stop it?"

Yes, it would be an argument about whether “rape culture” exists or is just a SJW term to shut down men. 

 

[Henry Ford]

To be fair, the attitude it seemed to me you projected yesterday was anything questioning anything that wasn't in total support of your position was seen as "for rapists".

I obviously think it's a super important topic and one that I think a lot of people could benefit from. And it's why I said repeatedly I'd love to see a discussion on it. Especially the "inside" experience stuff you and the other people here that deal with this. My guess is it's like lots of things - there is wisdom to be gained from people who have experience in how things work. Sometimes, what is seen on the surface isn't indicative of how they work in reality. 

Joe, if someone ever tells you a rape is consensual, I hope it makes you as angry as it does me.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

In the cases that actually go to trial, I would say there's a legitimate argument that more cases result in some measure of justice than do not.  When you include all the cases that don't ever make it to trial for all kinds of reasons, I would say very few rape or sexual assault cases result in anything I'd consider "justice."

Plea bargaining can involve a number of factors outside of the heinous nature of the crime.  As both Henry and Woz know the strength of the Prosecution's case can depend on a number of factors outside of the actual fact of whether an assault occurred.   Are there corroborating witnesses or circumstances, is there well preserved physical evidence for additional corroboration , evidence which was properly collected and for which an adequate chain of custody exists such that foundation for its admissibility is solid, is the victim a strong witness, a weak witness, or even an extremely reluctant witness.  These factors are present in all cases, of course, but they seem particularly prevalent in sexual assault matters and in crimes against children.  Sometimes all of this leads to plea bargains where a Prosecutor gets what they can, not what the facts, if proven, would bear since those facts have some percentage chance of not being proven.

Now judges do not have to accept a plea if it is too lenient.  This is rare, but it does happen.  The down side for the judge, of course, is that the case may not then actually make it to trial.  Judges, and the press are rarely privy to all of the information and calculations a Prosecutor has to make.

All of that said, many of the cases Henry has cited seem to be abuses, in my mind.  There certainly exist some Judges who worry far too much about the future of the rapist, about them not being overly stigmatized for "one mistake" and far too little about the future of the victim who may need the vindication to heal, emotionally.

 

[The Indestructible]

Plea bargaining can involve a number of factors outside of the heinous nature of the crime.  As both henry and Woz know the strength of the Prosecutions case can depend on a number of factors outside of the actual fact of whether an assault occurred.   Are there corroborating witnesses or circumstances, is there well preserved physical evidence for additional corroboration , evidence which was properly collected and for which an adequate chain of custody exists such that foundation for its admissibility is solid, is the victim a strong witness, a weak witness, or even an extremely reluctant witness.  These factors are present in all cases, of course, but they seem particularly prevalent in sexual assault matters and in crimes against children.  Sometimes all of this leads to plea bargains where a Prosecutor gets what they can, not what the facts, if proven would bear since those facts have some percentage chance of not being proven.

Now judges do not have to accept a plea if it is too lenient.  This is rare, but it does happen.  The down side for the judge, of course, is that the case may not then actually make it to trial.  Judges, and the press are rarely privy to all of the information and calculations a Prosecutor has to make.

All of that said, many of the cases Henry has cited seem to be abuses, in my mind.  There certainly exist some Judges who worry far too much about the future of the rapist, about them not being overly stigmatized for "one mistake" and far too little about the future of the victim who may need the vindication to heal, emotionally.

The Brock Turner case epitomizes this.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

It is a Prosecutor's obligation to not proceed with a prosecution if they believe, in good faith that they cannot prove the matter.  Not whether the crime occurred, but whether they can prove it at trial.  Often witnesses, victim witness, start vacillating for all sorts of reasons.  In that climate, knowing a heinous act occurred, knowing to a moral certainty that a crime occurred and who committed it, but seeing one's proof slipping away, often it is in those circumstances that plea deals are made, right before there is a certainty that the matter should be dismissed, again, not because it did not happen, but because under the rules of evidence a Prosecutor knows they lack a provable cause.  Often times the victims are quite pleased with the plea bargain, or perhaps it may be better to say they fully support that outcome in lieu of a traumatizing trial.  Victims know what Henry knows, societal attitudes will be part of the trial and deliberation, and whether that is the unknown attitude of the Judge, or the risk that one or more jurors will harbor such attitudes some victims make the very rational decision of not putting themselves through an uncertain process.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Joe, if someone ever tells you a rape is consensual, I hope it makes you as angry as it does me.  

It's my opinion, a great many people, myself certainly included, are beyond angry with regard to rape.

Not too distantly related, and we've certainly failed at times, I've tried to operate and guide this board as a whole with an attitude that's honorable towards women in particular. I don't know it's productive to turn this into a "who's angriest" discussion. I don't know you, but I'd like to assume the best of you and your words.

 

[Henry Ford]

It's my opinion, a great many people, myself certainly included, are beyond angry with regard to rape.

Not too distantly related, and we've certainly failed at times, I've tried to operate and guide this board as a whole with an attitude that's honorable towards women in particular. I don't know it's productive to turn this into a "who's angriest" discussion. I don't know you, but I'd like to assume the best of you and your words.

I'm not turning this into "who's angriest."  I'm responding to this statement of yours:

To be fair, the attitude it seemed to me you projected yesterday was anything questioning anything that wasn't in total support of your position was seen as "for rapists".

Which I believe was a response to a discussion I had with jonesssed.  I had some very reasonable side conversations about things that weren't "in total support of my position."  This statement suggests that's not the case.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Plea bargaining can involve a number of factors outside of the heinous nature of the crime.  As both Henry and Woz know the strength of the Prosecution's case can depend on a number of factors outside of the actual fact of whether an assault occurred.   Are there corroborating witnesses or circumstances, is there well preserved physical evidence for additional corroboration , evidence which was properly collected and for which an adequate chain of custody exists such that foundation for its admissibility is solid, is the victim a strong witness, a weak witness, or even an extremely reluctant witness.  These factors are present in all cases, of course, but they seem particularly prevalent in sexual assault matters and in crimes against children.  Sometimes all of this leads to plea bargains where a Prosecutor gets what they can, not what the facts, if proven, would bear since those facts have some percentage chance of not being proven.

Now judges do not have to accept a plea if it is too lenient.  This is rare, but it does happen.  The down side for the judge, of course, is that the case may not then actually make it to trial.  Judges, and the press are rarely privy to all of the information and calculations a Prosecutor has to make.

All of that said, many of the cases Henry has cited seem to be abuses, in my mind.  There certainly exist some Judges who worry far too much about the future of the rapist, about them not being overly stigmatized for "one mistake" and far too little about the future of the victim who may need the vindication to heal, emotionally.

I appreciate this perspective.  I don't believe anyone else I know has more experience with the criminal justice system than you do.

 

[dgreen]

For me, the way I usually try to look at things is :

1. What is/are the immediate problem(s)? (often it's way more than just one problem and often they're interwoven and dependent on the other. But identifying the problems is where I start)

2. What's causing the problem(s)?

3. What are things we can do to address the causes and hopefully address the problem?

If I'm hearing you right (and you've been quite clear I'm not so please correct me), it seems like the immediate problem is unjust sentences handed down in these cases. There are certainly more problems connected and underlying, but is that fair to say the cases are an immediate problem?

I'd add:

4. What does success look like?

I'm never a fan of the "even one is one too many" argument. I get it and there's some truth to it, but it's also not very helpful. My assumption is that Henry is right and there is a problem, but I'm the type of person who would prefer to see some data and then use those data to determine what the goal is. I posted a link earlier to data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. I haven't looked through it much, but my guess is data exists to make the case and determine where we want to get to.

 

[mr. furley]

maybe this has been covered already but can someone explain to me what is meant by "rape culture"?

that's a serious question. i am seeing it used a lot lately. people are dropping it like "how's the weather?" but i haven't a clue what it's supposed to actually mean.  it's almost reached corporate buzzword status where people don't really know what it means but they repeat it because it sounds important.

what exactly is "rape culture"? 

 

[Henry Ford]

I'd add:

4. What does success look like?

I'm never a fan of the "even one is one too many" argument. I get it and there's some truth to it, but it's also not very helpful. My assumption is that Henry is right and there is a problem, but I'm the type of person who would prefer to see some data and then use those data to determine what the goal is. I posted a link earlier to data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. I haven't looked through it much, but my guess is data exists to make the case and determine where we want to get to.

Success, to me, looks like a woman coming forward after being raped and not only being publicly somberly nodded at, but people not secretly thinking "well, what was she thinking getting drunk at a fraternity house.  I bet it wasn't really rape, she just regrets having sex with all those boys and doesn't want to be called a slut."  It looks like people who report being sexually assaulted being treated like people reporting being beaten up on the street.  You go to the hospital, people start asking "who did this" and the person gets arrested and charged. 

Success looks like men realizing they're about 200 times as likely to be raped as falsely accused of rape.

 

[BassNBrew]

I don’t know. 

The reaction to Kavanaugh, especially among conservatives, really depressed me about this issue. You had an incredibly credible woman, and people were so eager to disbelieve her, so angered that Kavanaugh was being “smeared”- it has caused me to wonder whether we have really advanced as much as I thought we had. 

Even today, two weeks later, I am reading how angry and energized conservatives are over Kavanaugh, how they regard him as a “victim”. How can we possibly do right on this issue when so many people feel this way?

And liberals were upset that Bill was a victim of the vast right wing conspiracy. I see it here all the time. If you don’t fall in line with the party line your accused of not helping things

 

[Henry Ford]

maybe this has been covered already but can someone explain to me what is meant by "rape culture"?

that's a serious question. i am seeing it used a lot lately. people are dropping it like "how's the weather?" but i haven't a clue what it's supposed to actually mean.  it's almost reached corporate buzzword status where people don't really know what it means but they repeat it because it sounds important.

what exactly is "rape culture"? 

"Rape Culture", at its base, is the underlying culture we live in beyond the veneer of "she seemed very credible and our heart goes out to her" that I'm trying to discuss in here.  Where the public perception and often the criminal penalties normalize and/or trivialize rape and sexual abuse.

 

[Henry Ford]

And liberals were upset that Bill was a victim of the vast right wing conspiracy. I see it here all the time. If you don’t fall in line with the party line your accused of not helping things

That's a very reasonable viewpoint.  And I guess what I hope is that societal attitudes can regard rape as being more like terrorism, where it really isn't a party issue.

 

[dgreen]

Success, to me, looks like a woman coming forward after being raped and not only being publicly somberly nodded at, but people not secretly thinking "well, what was she thinking getting drunk at a fraternity house.  I bet it wasn't really rape, she just regrets having sex with all those boys and doesn't want to be called a slut."  It looks like people who report being sexually assaulted being treated like people reporting being beaten up on the street.  You go to the hospital, people start asking "who did this" and the person gets arrested and charged. 

Success looks like men realizing they're about 200 times as likely to be raped as falsely accused of rape.

Thanks. As I said, I like data so that's how I prefer to think through things and picture things. If it appears that anything I'm about to say is insensitive or supporting rape, that's certainly not my intention.

When I read your criteria, I think two things:

• That's already happening. I'm sure many women come forward and are publicly somberly nodded at, many people aren't wondering whether she was drunk, accusing her of being a slut, and so on. It happens. At the very least, you do this. I like to think I do/would when presented with such an event. And I'm sure others do too. But, of course, at the same time as this stuff happening, it also doesn't happen because we live in a world with a lot of people and not everyone thinks the same. So, I doubt you're looking for those attitudes to simply be present in >0% of the population.
  
• The other thing that I think of when I read this is that you might not be satisfied and consider it successful until 100% of the people approach these situations as you describe. If you can find stories of people acting the opposite of what you propose, then we don't have success.
  

I assume neither of those is true. You don't have a low bar of 0% (because we've already achieved that) and you don't have the unrealistic high bar of 100%. In no way would I expect an answer with a % because that's not easy to do and I doubt it could ever be measured very well. Ultimately, maybe it's a "you'll know it when you see it" observation in your daily interactions and hopefully our society can reach a point in your lifetime that you feel success has been reached.

Table 5 on page 7 of this report, shows that Rape or sexual assault is the least reported crime type. And by a pretty good distance. I assume all of your success criteria, if achieved, would lead to more reports to police. That's probably a measureable proxy to your criteria. But, notice other crimes. Of the violent crimes, Serious violent crime involving a weapon is that the top with 60.1% being reported to police. So, is it enough for Rape or sexual assault reporting % to climb to the level of other crimes? What if it was on par with other violent crimes (42% reported)? Would that be at least one measure of success? Or do we think we should expect it to be higher?

Between 1995 and 2010, rape and sexual assault victimization rates among females dropped by 64%. (Apparently 1995 was the peak.) Interestingly, the drop seems to be completely driven by a decline in completed rapes or sexual assault (as opposed to attempted or threatened). That seems like we might be headed in the right direction (at least as of 8 years ago). But, of course, I'm not sure what a realistic number is to strive for. I'm not sure what a successful number is. Maybe we can get much, much lower. Or maybe the reality of humans (men) doesn't allow it to get much lower.

My personal preference is to start with data and then add individual examples to help tell the story. If your success criteria for society is based on individual stories, you're destined to fail. There are nearly 7.7 billion people on this planet right now. You can always find someone or some group of people who believe just about anything. There will always be injustices and things we want to be better.

I tend to agree with your conclusion about there being a societal problem. My gut tells me so and I have yet to see data contradict that. The few data points I've looked at support it. I believe we can and should improve. However, as we improve, I'm guessing I'd be willing to claim success much earlier than you. I'm sure some might say we're already successful because they think we're better than our ancestors and other contemporary societies. Those might be true and are important to keep in mind, but I think the bar can be set higher.

 

[Henry Ford]

Thanks. As I said, I like data so that's how I prefer to think through things and picture things. If it appears that anything I'm about to say is insensitive or supporting rape, that's certainly not my intention.

When I read your criteria, I think two things:

• That's already happening. I'm sure many women come forward and are publicly somberly nodded at, many people aren't wondering whether she was drunk, accusing her of being a slut, and so on. It happens. At the very least, you do this. I like to think I do/would when presented with such an event. And I'm sure others do too. But, of course, at the same time as this stuff happening, it also doesn't happen because we live in a world with a lot of people and not everyone thinks the same. So, I doubt you're looking for those attitudes to simply be present in >0% of the population.
  
• The other thing that I think of when I read this is that you might not be satisfied and consider it successful until 100% of the people approach these situations as you describe. If you can find stories of people acting the opposite of what you propose, then we don't have success.
  

I assume neither of those is true. You don't have a low bar of 0% (because we've already achieved that) and you don't have the unrealistic high bar of 100%. In no way would I expect an answer with a % because that's not easy to do and I doubt it could ever be measured very well. Ultimately, maybe it's a "you'll know it when you see it" observation in your daily interactions and hopefully our society can reach a point in your lifetime that you feel success has been reached.

Table 5 on page 7 of this report, shows that Rape or sexual assault is the least reported crime type. And by a pretty good distance. I assume all of your success criteria, if achieved, would lead to more reports to police. That's probably a measureable proxy to your criteria. But, notice other crimes. Of the violent crimes, Serious violent crime involving a weapon is that the top with 60.1% being reported to police. So, is it enough for Rape or sexual assault reporting % to climb to the level of other crimes? What if it was on par with other violent crimes (42% reported)? Would that be at least one measure of success? Or do we think we should expect it to be higher?

Between 1995 and 2010, rape and sexual assault victimization rates among females dropped by 64%. (Apparently 1995 was the peak.) Interestingly, the drop seems to be completely driven by a decline in completed rapes or sexual assault (as opposed to attempted or threatened). That seems like we might be headed in the right direction (at least as of 8 years ago). But, of course, I'm not sure what a realistic number is to strive for. I'm not sure what a successful number is. Maybe we can get much, much lower. Or maybe the reality of humans (men) doesn't allow it to get much lower.

My personal preference is to start with data and then add individual examples to help tell the story. If your success criteria for society is based on individual stories, you're destined to fail. There are nearly 7.7 billion people on this planet right now. You can always find someone or some group of people who believe just about anything. There will always be injustices and things we want to be better.

I tend to agree with your conclusion about there being a societal problem. My gut tells me so and I have yet to see data contradict that. The few data points I've looked at support it. I believe we can and should improve. However, as we improve, I'm guessing I'd be willing to claim success much earlier than you. I'm sure some might say we're already successful because they think we're better than our ancestors and other contemporary societies. Those might be true and are important to keep in mind, but I think the bar can be set higher.

Sure.  But data is impersonal.  And I think we all know much of the data.  My argument doesn't depend on anecdotal news articles.  It's bolstered by it.

Only 36% of rapes, 34% of attempted rapes, and 26% of other sexual assaults are reported.

Rennison, C.M. Rape and Sexual Assault: Reporting to Police and Medical Attention, 1992–2000. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, August 2002, NCJ 194530.

36% represents an increase from the 1990s.  Of about 5%.  That's not an indication to me that societal attitudes have shifted significantly, when the most often cited reasons for not reporting (according to the study most often-cited by the DOJ) are:

Self-blame or guilt.

Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter.

Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions.

Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.

Lack of trust in the criminal justice system.

Du Mont, J., K.L. Miller, and T.L. Myhr. "The Role of 'Real Rape' and 'Real Victim' Stereotypes in the Police Reporting Practices of Sexually Assaulted Women." Violence Against Women 9(4)(April 2003): 466–486.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I once had an extremely reluctant witness in a sexual assault matter.  She was receiving substantial pressure from her family and friends to not assist in the prosecution.   The accused was a well liked friend and neighbor and her family and friends were worried about his future.  The accused was also, unknown to me, intimidating the witness.  That rocket scientist actually threatened her in a letter and a recorded phone message that if she testified as to the rape that he would ruin her life. 

I did not know any of this.  I offered a very unsatisfactory plea, from my point of view, at her urging as she made it clear that she may not testify voluntarily and that she may recant if forced to testify. 

At the hearing to accept the plea the accused was an arrogant #####.   He was gloating.  She, the victim, was present to view the matter.  During his allocution he minimized, denied, blamed the victim.  The judge, clearly offended, inquired of the victim a second time whether she had been consulted as to the plea and whether she approved of it. His Honor made it clear that he was unhappy with the leniency of the plea, one he even stated he may not accept.  Well the victim found her voice right then and there. She stated she did not want the plea, though she had previously pushed it.  She stated she wanted to go to trial and for him to pay.  She then disclosed she had  the aforementioned letter and a tape from her answering machine.

His Honor refused to accept the plea.  He recused himself from further participation in the matter.  I added charges and set the matter for trial.  Mr. smug and his attorney begged for another plea bargain, a much harsher one.  The only offer they got from me is he could plea to every count and that I would make no sentencing recommendation, nor even speak on the matter, but that I would have the victim address the court on sentencing.  They foolishly took that offer, and when I say foolishly, I mean it.  When that woman found her voice she really found her voice.  That was the exception and not the rule.

 

[Henry Ford]

And the fact is, even those reports do not take into account the actual range of crimes that fit under "sexual assault."

If a man grabs a woman he doesn't know's rear end at a bar, that is sexual assault.  But one of the main issues is that society at large will respond (even if not out loud) with "oh, come on, I didn't mean that, I meant real sexual assault."

If you ask 1000 women if they've ever been sexually assaulted or 1000 men if the women they know have been and refuse to give them the definition, you will get a very different answer than if you define the behavior that constitutes sexual assault instead of using the words "sexual assault" and include unwanted groping, I think you'd find virtually all women would say they have been and most men would say the women they know have been.

So one of the disconnects, the theory goes, isn't really in "what happens" and the data on incidents, it's in hammering into people's skulls that "yes, that too is sexual assault and deserves to be treated like sexual assault."

 

[dgreen]

And I think we all know much of the data.

I disagree with this. I think answers would be all over the place if you were to randomly ask people about some of the data. Additionally, it's sometimes not enough to know that X is X. X needs context. It needs to be compared to Y. It needs to be put into terms that people can understand.

 

[Henry Ford]

I disagree with this. I think answers would be all over the place if you were to randomly ask people about some of the data. Additionally, it's sometimes not enough to know that X is X. X needs context. It needs to be compared to Y. It needs to be put into terms that people can understand.

Fair on the disagreement.  I expressed my feelings poorly.

We all know where to find the data.  People don't bother to look.  And they won't until they have an emotional investment in finding the answer.  Or "care" as I've been putting it.  And that's why I began this thread with anecdotal stories. I understand there's another approach.  It's not the one I took.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

This is (mostly) a good and interesting thread, despite the tough subject matter.  I don't want to comment much because I'm more interested in seeing the male perspective, and as one of the only women here I'm often concerned about being seen as "speaking for all women" in thread like this, which I undoubtedly don't.

I would say to that, that most men need to actually hear from you @krista4, or a woman, some women, many women, all women, about what they perceive to be the problem and then do more than give the conversation more than lip service, social acknowledgment, or a quick thought before they move on to other issues.

Ultimately, the underlying problem with this topic is massively complex yet very simple.  I say complex because you are talking about a massive societal change to the very nature of the interplay between men and women of all stations.  That isn't something that happens overnight or because of one case, one news story, or one person.  It takes time to change culture beyond surface level things.  @Henry Ford example of slavery ending in 1866 but Jim Crow lasting until the 1960's is apropos.  And that isn't meant to down play racism and the cultural issues that our black citizens face.  It's just to say that as an example, it works here.  But American slavery as a construct only lasted a few hundred years.  The treatment of women as something "less than" by men has been happening since the dawn of time.

But I also say simple, because really, at the core of the issue, the simple solution is this.  A man, a singular man in this country, needs to treat the women he comes into contact with in his life - be it his daughter, girlfriend, mother, aunt, wife, sister, cousin, co-worker, stranger, waitress, teacher, boss or whatever, basic common respect as a person.  Not as a woman, although that is another step in this, but as a person.  A person whose worth and value, whose meaning to the society in which she exists in, the same level of honorable respect that that same man would demand from other men in the same circle.  Start at that very basic beginning.  Treat women with respect.  Have a masculine honor about you that stands for the premise that the woman in front of you is not a sex toy nor a being that is in front of you simply to pleasure you in whatever pleasure you seek.  But a person who means more than that.  

If one man does that, that is a start.  From there, he needs to hold his friends to that standard and say something when he sees something going sideways.  He needs to teach his son how to do it, and teach his daughter how to expect it and not settle for less.  He needs to treat his wife with that respect and honor her for the greater society to see how the relationship between a husband and wife is supposed to function.  He needs to require his elected officials to do the same.  He needs to stop people that would try to explain away sexual assault and domestic violence as something less than the truly terrible thing that it is.  

Regardless of anything that we talk about in this topic, men need to come to grips with one salient fact - we will never know, and never can know, the true soul crushing heartache that a woman feels when something like this happens to her, and the life long internal doubt, fear and pain that she will endure.  We don't suffer that.  We might support our woman who does.  We might type on message boards that we support them and will listen to them.  But we will never internalize that true pain and grief that they do.  It is impossible.  I probably sound like an ### even writing it because I don't know that I could have the words to describe it.   But we can have common empathy, and work each day to ensure that, at the very least, we aren't the guy that causes that pain.  We can listen to them and serve them.  We can be honorable.  

IMHO.

 

[Henry Ford]

I would say to that, that most men need to actually hear from you @krista4, or a woman, some women, many women, all women, about what they perceive to be the problem and then do more than give the conversation more than lip service, social acknowledgment, or a quick thought before they move on to other issues.

Ultimately, the underlying problem with this topic is massively complex yet very simple.  I say complex because you are talking about a massive societal change to the very nature of the interplay between men and women of all stations.  That isn't something that happens overnight or because of one case, one news story, or one person.  It takes time to change culture beyond surface level things.  @Henry Ford example of slavery ending in 1866 but Jim Crow lasting until the 1960's is apropos.  And that isn't meant to down play racism and the cultural issues that our black citizens face.  It's just to say that as an example, it works here.  But American slavery as a construct only lasted a few hundred years.  The treatment of women as something "less than" by men has been happening since the dawn of time.

But I also say simple, because really, at the core of the issue, the simple solution is this.  A man, a singular man in this country, needs to treat the women he comes into contact with in his life - be it his daughter, girlfriend, mother, aunt, wife, sister, cousin, co-worker, stranger, waitress, teacher, boss or whatever, basic common respect as a person.  Not as a woman, although that is another step in this, but as a person.  A person whose worth and value, whose meaning to the society in which she exists in, the same level of honorable respect that that same man would demand from other men in the same circle.  Start at that very basic beginning.  Treat women with respect.  Have a masculine honor about you that stands for the premise that the woman in front of you is not a sex toy nor a being that is in front of you simply to pleasure you in whatever pleasure you seek.  But a person who means more than that.  

If one man does that, that is a start.  From there, he needs to hold his friends to that standard and say something when he sees something going sideways.  He needs to teach his son how to do it, and teach his daughter how to expect it and not settle for less.  He needs to treat his wife with that respect and honor her for the greater society to see how the relationship between a husband and wife is supposed to function.  He needs to require his elected officials to do the same.  He needs to stop people that would try to explain away sexual assault and domestic violence as something less than the truly terrible thing that it is.  

Regardless of anything that we talk about in this topic, men need to come to grips with one salient fact - we will never know, and never can know, the true soul crushing heartache that a woman feels when something like this happens to her, and the life long internal doubt, fear and pain that she will endure.  We don't suffer that.  We might support our woman who does.  We might type on message boards that we support them and will listen to them.  But we will never internalize that true pain and grief that they do.  It is impossible.  I probably sound like an ### even writing it because I don't know that I could have the words to describe it.   But we can have common empathy, and work each day to ensure that, at the very least, we aren't the guy that causes that pain.  We can listen to them and serve them.  We can be honorable.  

IMHO.

Yeah, this.

And just as you wouldn't, I would never tell a woman it's her job to discuss sexual assault in a room full of men.  It's not her responsibility to discuss it.  But I also absolutely would appreciate k4's perspective if she wants to share it.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

What ever happened to chemical castration through depo provera.  That was proving effective and then, 8th amendment and its popularity waned.  I seem to recall some case that even offering convicted defendants the choice was an 8th amendment violation which struck me as odd.  Maybe Woz remembers the case.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Yeah, this.

And just as you wouldn't, I would never tell a woman it's her job to discuss sexual assault in a room full of men.  It's not her responsibility to discuss it.  But I also absolutely would appreciate k4's perspective if she wants to share it.

Agreed.  Words matter. Everything matters.

This is one of those topics where we need to realize that it is a life long learning process, right?  I think one of the problems at least currently, in the sense of the Kavanaugh hearing backlash, is that men see that and think, "holy crap... I was kinda like that in college and I never meant anything criminal with it, I was just into her and thought she was into me..." and things like that.  But the lessons learned at 12, 15, 18, and 21 don't stop when you get a job and/or get married.  The relationship between men and women is not a simple 5 point education chart to memorize and then move on from.  There is a never ending learning that goes on.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Agreed.  Words matter. Everything matters.

This is one of those topics where we need to realize that it is a life long learning process, right?  I think one of the problems at least currently, in the sense of the Kavanaugh hearing backlash, is that men see that and think, "holy crap... I was kinda like that in college and I never meant anything criminal with it, I was just into her and thought she was into me..." and things like that.  But the lessons learned at 12, 15, 18, and 21 don't stop when you get a job and/or get married.  The relationship between men and women is not a simple 5 point education chart to memorize and then move on from.  There is a never ending learning that goes on.  

YES.

This is it, absolutely.  It's one reason I shared the story I did in that thread, and it led to a couple pages of good discussion, but it's absolutely one of the major issues.  The shame that comes with admitting you, too committed sexual assault.  But it's well past time to (as it were) man up and admit these things.

 

[Dedfin]

No, I get it.  I just think we both tend to focus more on our differences (this is the internet after all) and focus less on the stuff we agree on.  In my real bricks-and-mortar life, I see myself as an ally for women.  

Does your voting record reflect that?

 

[whoknew]

Agreed.  Words matter. Everything matters.

This is one of those topics where we need to realize that it is a life long learning process, right?  I think one of the problems at least currently, in the sense of the Kavanaugh hearing backlash, is that men see that and think, "holy crap... I was kinda like that in college and I never meant anything criminal with it, I was just into her and thought she was into me..." and things like that.  But the lessons learned at 12, 15, 18, and 21 don't stop when you get a job and/or get married.  The relationship between men and women is not a simple 5 point education chart to memorize and then move on from.  There is a never ending learning that goes on.  

To this point, I have never been one to abuse women (I don't think) but it was only in the last few years that I guess I started really listening to what some women were saying. And it was at this point - at 45 years old - that I realized men and women live in completely different worlds.

For example, I live in a revitalizing neighborhood and I go out running before the sun comes up in the morning. With headphones on. No woman I have talked to recently would ever do that. Another woman told me an experience a few years ago where she was at a shopping center and some guy grabbed her ### and this made her just break down crying. Because it was so incredibly invasive and violating to her. 

I know I should have realized this truism long before 42 or whatever. I'm embarrassed that I didn't. But I thank the women who told me these stories and woke me up to the extent of the problems in the world that women deal with every day. And that I have been blissfully unaware of.

So I agree its not any woman's obligation to shake me out of my ignorance. But I'm glad they chose to do so.

 

[Henry Ford]

To this point, I have never been one to abuse women (I don't think) but it was only in the last few years that I guess I started really listening to what some women were saying. And it was at this point - at 45 years old - that I realized men and women live in completely different worlds.

For example, I live in a revitalizing neighborhood and I go out running before the sun comes up in the morning. With headphones on. No woman I have talked to recently would ever do that. Another woman told me an experience a few years ago where she was at a shopping center and some guy grabbed her ### and this made her just break down crying. Because it was so incredibly invasive and violating to her. 

I know I should have realized this truism long before 42 or whatever. I'm embarrassed that I didn't. But I thank the women who told me these stories and woke me up to the extent of the problems in the world that women deal with every day. And that I have been blissfully unaware of.

So I agree its not any woman's obligation to shake me out of my ignorance. But I'm glad they chose to do so.

The world needs more of this.  Good on you.

@Joe Bryant, you asked repeatedly what I think can change things.  This can.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

During college I was growing enamored of a co-worker.  She was a woman of gentle and kind temperament. I remember being home, sick with the flu, and she came over to bring me some homemade chicken soup and then she proceeded to read me The Princess Bride long before it was a movie.  It was an intimate act, her sharing that story with me while I was sick.

In those days I was very slow to proceed with any relationship, but ours was growing.  One night, we worked very late closing down a place well after bar time, she and I were alone. She broke down crying.  She had been assaulted on her walk home the previous week, by a Police Officer.  She was terrified of him.  He threatened her that no one would believe her story and then he frequently parked his cruiser outside of her place to watch her comings and goings.  She knew in her heart that it would happen again.  I offered to have her stay with me that night.  She declined.  She wanted me to walk her home.  She lived a mile or so in the wrong direction but I agreed.  Sure enough the scum was parked outside her place.  I stayed until dawn and then walked home. He pulled out as he saw me walking towards him. 

This kept up for a week or so and then he started coming into the restaurant during his shift.  I explained matters to the manager who was supportive, but the girl, lets call her Buttercup, did not want to press charges. This confused the manager, a politically active lesbian, but she did agree to allow me to exclude the cop from the restaurant.  This angered him.  I invited him to make an issue of it.  He declined. That morning I walked her home again.  Again he was there.  When I left at dawn he decided to confront me warning me that he had the power to make things difficult for me, that he could put charges on me and no one would believe a kid like me.  We engaged in a physical altercation, the cop and I. After, I was able to walk away while he gathered himself.  I never saw that cop again.  I believe he left the force, and the town.  As for Buttercup, though we remained friends we were never intimate.  She wanted to be, or so she said, repeatedly, but she was just not able to be, though she liked for me to walk her home and then hold her while she drifted off to sleep.  Much as I enjoyed her company that was not enough to sustain a relationship.  Sometimes in quiet moments I grieve for the relationship which never grew.  I lost track of her long ago.  I hope she has enjoyed a full life.

 

[Henry Ford]

During college I was growing enamored of a co-worker.  She was a woman of gentle and kind temperament. I remember being home, sick with the flu, and she came over to bring me some homemade chicken soup and then she proceeded to read me, The Princess Bride long before it was a movie.  It was an intimate act, her sharing that story with me while I was sick.

In those days I was very slow to proceed with any relationship, but ours was growing.  One night, we worked very late closing down a place well after bar time, she and I were alone. She broke down crying.  She had been assaulted on her walk home the previous week, buy a Police Officer.  She was terrified of him.  He threatened her that no one would believe her story and then he frequently parked his cruiser outside of her place to watch her comings and goings.  She knew in her heart that it would happen again.  I offered to have her stay with me that night.  She declined.  She wanted me to walk her home.  She lived a mile or so in the wrong direction but I agreed.  Sure enough the scum was parked outside her place.  I stayed until dawn and then walked home. He pulled out as he saw me walking towards him. 

This kept up for a week or so and then he started coming into the restaurant during his shift.  I explained matters to the manager who was supportive, but the girl, lets call her Buttercup, did not want to press charges. This confused the manager, a politically active lesbian, but she did agree to allow me to exclude the cop from the restaurant.  This angered him.  I invited him to make an issue of it.  He declined. That morning I walked her home again.  Again he was there.  When I left at dawn he decided to confront me warning me that he had the power to make things difficult for me, that he could put charges on me and no one would believe a kid like me.  We engaged in a physical altercation, the cop and I. After, I was able to walk away while he gathered himself.  I never saw that cop again.  I believe he left the force, and the town.  As for Buttercup, though we remained friends we were never intimate.  She wanted to be, or so she said, repeatedly, but she was just not able to be, though she liked for me to walk her home and then hold her while she drifted off to sleep.  Much as I enjoyed her company that was not enough to sustain a relationship.  Sometimes in quite moments I grieve for the relationship which never grew.  I lost track of her long ago.  I hope she has enjoyed a full life.

I wish this story surprised me.

One of the problems in the justice system is the number of officers who are credibly accused of (and in turn the number who are actually guilty of, whether they are convicted or not) sexual abuse or assault while wearing the badge.  On average in this country, more than one officer is accused of some kind of sexual misconduct per week. 

 

[Henry Ford]

I want to try to gather my thoughts on why I say that we don't "care" about sexual assault in this country, as a nation.  @dgreen touched on it earlier, and I tried to clarify a bit, when discussing the fact that we don't really know the statistics.

I think if we were all asked "which do you care more about, football or sexual violence against women in this country" we'd probably all vehemently say we "care" more about sexual violence against women.  Because we believe it is a more serious or important subject.  But we don't treat it like that.

We don't very often talk about it in terms of how to help survivors or improve things.  We don't let it into our daily lives or conversations.  We don't study it.  We don't read statistics on it.  We don't participate in trying to do anything about it.  We don't volunteer to help survivors.  We don't do any of the things that indicate we "care" about something.  And by "we" I mean individuals.  

Yes, the Kavanaugh hearings or the #metoo movement will bring up a few uncomfortable non-committal conversations for most people, but it won't become part of life.

I can tell you how many yards Drew Brees has passed for in his career within a couple hundred yards off the top of my head on any given day, but I can't tell you how many rape kits are backlogged and have never been tested.

In fact, no one can.  There isn't a human being in this country who could tell you how many rape kits have yet to be tested 30 days after they were collected.  There is no tracking system for most jurisdictions that even lists how many rape kits they have taken or tested.  There has been a ten year push by non-profit organizations to end a backlog of rape kits, that ten years has seen 225,000 backlogged kits get uncovered and tested, and yet we still have a backlog of hundreds of thousands of rape kits.  Women who had recently been raped sat on a table, let a stranger swab, poke, and prod their bodies in order to try to get evidence - to do the thing everyone tells them they must do to get justice - and hundreds of thousands of those kits they endured creating just sat (and still sit) on a shelf for months, years, in some cases decades.  Or they are simply thrown away.

I just cannot fathom how that could happen, even ten years after the problem was brought into the public consciousness, and we could say "yes, we definitely collectively care about this issue."

 

[parasaurolophus]

Sure.  But data is impersonal.  And I think we all know much of the data.  My argument doesn't depend on anecdotal news articles.  It's bolstered by it.

36% represents an increase from the 1990s.  Of about 5%.  That's not an indication to me that societal attitudes have shifted significantly, when the most often cited reasons for not reporting (according to the study most often-cited by the DOJ) are:

Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.

Lack of trust in the criminal justice system.

I said this back in the metoo thread and I still believe it and it adresses these two bold points. We need to focus on police getting better at handling reports of sexual assault. We also need to focus on preventing retaliation for reporting and punishment for improper handling of reporting.

The things that get instantly excused because a woman has alcohol on her breath are just repulsive. As if beer makes them all interested in rough sex with men they just met. Too many times a victim goes in that night or the next morning right away and they are met with immediate skepticism. even when they are bruised and battered.

You and I have different philosophies on "believe all victims"(although I would say our biggest area of disagreement there has more to do with time frame than anything else). But I imagine we are very similar when it comes to our thoughts regarding when victims report to police right away and certainly when the accused are found guilty. 

I agree with you that if a woman is raped and she tells a friend right after and that friend recommends going to the police that the victim may very well not want to go and if she does go that she has a very good chance of being met with some deplorable behavior, especially if she has been drinking. That needs to be fixed first and foremost I think. 

 

[Henry Ford]

I said this back in the metoo thread and I still believe it and it adresses these two bold points. We need to focus on police getting better at handling reports of sexual assault. We also need to focus on preventing retaliation for reporting and punishment for improper handling of reporting.

The things that get instantly excused because a woman has alcohol on her breath are just repulsive. As if beer makes them all interested in rough sex with men they just met. Too many times a victim goes in that night or the next morning right away and they are met with immediate skepticism. even when they are bruised and battered.

You and I have different philosophies on "believe all victims"(although I would say our biggest area of disagreement there has more to do with time frame than anything else). But I imagine we are very similar when it comes to our thoughts regarding when victims report to police right away and certainly when the accused are found guilty. 

I agree with you that if a woman is raped and she tells a friend right after and that friend recommends going to the police that the victim may very well not want to go and if she does go that she has a very good chance of being met with some deplorable behavior, especially if she has been drinking. That needs to be fixed first and foremost I think. 

I think we may be at the point where sexual assault and rape should be reported to a police department social worker advocate rather than an officer, to work the case up together with officers.  Especially with the stats coming out about officer-involved sexual assault. 

 

[Dedfin]

I wish this story surprised me.

One of the problems in the justice system is the number of officers who are credibly accused of (and in turn the number who are actually guilty of, whether they are convicted or not) sexual abuse or assault while wearing the badge.  On average in this country, more than one officer is accused of some kind of sexual misconduct per week. 

Wow, where did you get this?

 

[Henry Ford]

Wow, where did you get this?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/bncore/projects/abusing-the-law/index.html

In the past decade, a law enforcement official was caught in a case of sexual abuse or misconduct at least every five days. Nearly all were men. Nearly all victims were women, and a surprising number were adolescents.

 

[Henry Ford]

That's from 2015, by the way, not decades ago.

 

[parasaurolophus]

And the fact is, even those reports do not take into account the actual range of crimes that fit under "sexual assault."

If a man grabs a woman he doesn't know's rear end at a bar, that is sexual assault.  But one of the main issues is that society at large will respond (even if not out loud) with "oh, come on, I didn't mean that, I meant real sexual assault."

If you ask 1000 women if they've ever been sexually assaulted or 1000 men if the women they know have been and refuse to give them the definition, you will get a very different answer than if you define the behavior that constitutes sexual assault instead of using the words "sexual assault" and include unwanted groping, I think you'd find virtually all women would say they have been and most men would say the women they know have been.

So one of the disconnects, the theory goes, isn't really in "what happens" and the data on incidents, it's in hammering into people's skulls that "yes, that too is sexual assault and deserves to be treated like sexual assault."

I have often wondered if making the penalty smaller for such an offense, but increasing the enforcement of it would have a much better effect on reducing the number of times this happens. I think we both agree that the perv in the bar pretty much walks away scot free every time. It is seldom taken to the police because women think why go through the trouble. 

Well what if it became something that got ticketed in bars across america on a nightly basis. Not charged as a sex crime and then bringing registries in, lawyers, etc. I mean what if we treated it like speeding in a construction zone. I am not bringing this up to minimize it. I am not arguing it is a minor crime. I am just wondering if it became something that was actually often punished, would that do more to curb the behavior.  

Not something I am dug in on, just throwing something out as an idea. I have no idea what % of people fight speeding tickets. Whatever that % is though I would think it would be a lot lower if it was a public forum that people would be having to defend themselves against groping.

Women are obviously repulsed and offended and hurt and all sorts of other feelings when they get grabbed at a bar. They also dont want to have their life turned upside down because of it by reporting it and risking testifying, etc. Well what if their only involvement was giving a statement to an officer that it happened and then a ticket was issued? Would they be more likely to do that? Would it help? Just an idea. 

 

[Henry Ford]

I have often wondered if making the penalty smaller for such an offense, but increasing the enforcement of it would have a much better effect on reducing the number of times this happens. I think we both agree that the perv in the bar pretty much walks away scot free every time. It is seldom taken to the police because women think why go through the trouble. 

Well what if it became something that got ticketed in bars across america on a nightly basis. Not charged as a sex crime and then bringing registries in, lawyers, etc. I mean what if we treated it like speeding in a construction zone. I am not bringing this up to minimize it. I am not arguing it is a minor crime. I am just wondering if it became something that was actually often punished, would that do more to curb the behavior.  

Not something I am dug in on, just throwing something out as an idea. I have no idea what % of people fight speeding tickets. Whatever that % is though I would think it would be a lot lower if it was a public forum that people would be having to defend themselves against groping.

Women are obviously repulsed and offended and hurt and all sorts of other feelings when they get grabbed at a bar. They also dont want to have their life turned upside down because of it by reporting it and risking testifying, etc. Well what if their only involvement was giving a statement to an officer that it happened and then a ticket was issued? Would they be more likely to do that? Would it help? Just an idea. 

It might.  But they'd still be able to go fight the ticket... but it may turn things around from "I have to go testify against this guy and he won't get much penalty" to "I'm going to go fight over a $200 ticket and have people see me argue about sexual assault?"

 

[parasaurolophus]

It might.  But they'd still be able to go fight the ticket... but it may turn things around from "I have to go testify against this guy and he won't get much penalty" to "I'm going to go fight over a $200 ticket and have people see me argue about sexual assault?"

What if you made it so that a first offense stayed sealed, but then a second offense unsealed and escalated it. 

I don't really know how traffic court works but if you fight it and the officer doesn't show up, is it automatically dismissed? Could you maybe make this similar to trial by written declaration where the officer can just give a statement? 

 

[Henry Ford]

What if you made it so that a first offense stayed sealed, but then a second offense unsealed and escalated it. 

I don't really know how traffic court works but if you fight it and the officer doesn't show up, is it automatically dismissed? Could you maybe make this similar to trial by written declaration where the officer can just give a statement? 

Maybe?  I obviously haven't thought this through, but it seems like it could be a beginning of something.  I'm not inclined to dismiss it out of hand, which suggests somewhere in my addled old brain it sounds like it has at the very least a nugget of real promise.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Maybe?  I obviously haven't thought this through, but it seems like it could be a beginning of something.  I'm not inclined to dismiss it out of hand, which suggests somewhere in my addled old brain it sounds like it has at the very least a nugget of real promise.

The idea of essentially decriminalizing groping is somewhat offputting, but I absolutely think a guy that slapped or grabbed a girls butt at a bar and had a cop write him a ticket 5 minutes later is sure going to have a much bigger wake up call. 

The place I see this potentially making a bigger difference too would be at college bars. Underage drinking is obviously rampant, but police seem to turn a blind eye so there isnt much real risk. If you could get doubled up with an underage drinking ticket and a different citation I would like to think there could be far less of it without placing the burden on women.

I would love to think that we could teach the men to just not do this crap, but I find that these types seem to run together. So he might get high fived before he gets reprimanded by a buddy. So who is going to teach him then? 

 

[Henry Ford]

The idea of essentially decriminalizing groping is somewhat offputting, but I absolutely think a guy that slapped or grabbed a girls butt at a bar and had a cop write him a ticket 5 minutes later is sure going to have a much bigger wake up call. 

The place I see this potentially making a bigger difference too would be at college bars. Underage drinking is obviously rampant, but police seem to turn a blind eye so there isnt much real risk. If you could get doubled up with an underage drinking ticket and a different citation I would like to think there could be far less of it without placing the burden on women.

I would love to think that we could teach the men to just not do this crap, but I find that these types seem to run together. So he might get high fived before he gets reprimanded by a buddy. So who is going to teach him then? 

Very off putting.  But it's even worse than decriminalized now - because literally nothing will happen to the men who do it.  They won't get arrested because of the hassle for the victim and the police, and it'll get tossed for a little community service or stern warning at most anyway even if it was pursued.  So if that's how we actually are going to treat the crime, we should make the laws commensurate with our actual treatment of it.

By the same token, to sort of even things out it should also be considered only a ticketable offense for a woman to kick a man in the genitals as hard as she can.

 

[Henry Ford]

Weird confluence of events:

A relative in her 70s went to speak to an old friend of hers from high school today, and I've been getting texts from her.  Her friend, whom she hasn't seen in a good 40+ years, apparently told her for the first time today that she was told not to return to her Christian college because she was pregnant in the 60s.  She was pregnant because she had been held down and gang raped by a good segment of the football team and host fraternity at a fraternity party. She didn't know who the father was because she blacked out after the first 10 or so.  

And here we are over 50 years later.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

Very off putting.  But it's even worse than decriminalized now - because literally nothing will happen to the men who do it.  They won't get arrested because of the hassle for the victim and the police, and it'll get tossed for a little community service or stern warning at most anyway even if it was pursued.  So if that's how we actually are going to treat the crime, we should make the laws commensurate with our actual treatment of it.

By the same token, to sort of even things out it should also be considered only a ticketable offense for a woman to kick a man in the genitals as hard as she can.

I actually started to think of other things that maybe should just get made this way too and my mind ended up in a similar place. 

 

[Henry Ford]

I actually started to think of other things that maybe should just get made this way too and my mind ended up in a similar place. 

Fair.

 

[The Indestructible]

I have often wondered if making the penalty smaller for such an offense, but increasing the enforcement of it would have a much better effect on reducing the number of times this happens. I think we both agree that the perv in the bar pretty much walks away scot free every time. It is seldom taken to the police because women think why go through the trouble. 

Well what if it became something that got ticketed in bars across america on a nightly basis. Not charged as a sex crime and then bringing registries in, lawyers, etc. I mean what if we treated it like speeding in a construction zone. I am not bringing this up to minimize it. I am not arguing it is a minor crime. I am just wondering if it became something that was actually often punished, would that do more to curb the behavior.  

Not something I am dug in on, just throwing something out as an idea. I have no idea what % of people fight speeding tickets. Whatever that % is though I would think it would be a lot lower if it was a public forum that people would be having to defend themselves against groping.

Women are obviously repulsed and offended and hurt and all sorts of other feelings when they get grabbed at a bar. They also dont want to have their life turned upside down because of it by reporting it and risking testifying, etc. Well what if their only involvement was giving a statement to an officer that it happened and then a ticket was issued? Would they be more likely to do that? Would it help? Just an idea. 

I can foresee Trump's response to this: "It is so easy now for a woman to ruin a man's life.  All she has to do is tap a cop on the shoulder and point at a guy.  Then they write him a ticket.  But it isn't a speeding ticket.  Its a sexual assault ticket.  It will ruin his life.  Guilty until proven innocent!"