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Customer gave me a fake $100 bill (1 Viewer)

R

RokNRole

Footballguy
I’ll try to be brief. I work at a restaurant and I’ve recently brought it to the owners attention that he needs to refinish our outdoor patio tables.

Currently they are bare wood with a metal base. Intricate grill style wood patio tops.The tops look like crap. Covered in oil stains from food and some of the joints are starting to warp and separate from being exposed to the elements.

I told him I could fix them, otherwise in 1-2 years he will have to buy new ones and the ones he has now look like crap and not suitable for an upscale restaurant.

Quick scuff with a palm sander. 2 coats of wood stain to hide the oil stains and match the darker interior tables and then 2 coats of poly to seal them from the weather and further staining. Each table is roughly 3x3. Some 5x3. Altogether about 25 tables ( I can get an accurate count tomorrow. I was occupied with explaining the problem to him when guests started coming in that required service).

Just by eyeballing it I can finish the job in under 2 days if it’s days I’m off the clock. If it’s a warm and dry day I could probably start at sun up and finish by sundown due to quick drying. Probably 12-18 hour job and he will buy all the supplies himself ( with my guidance so he doesn’t buy crap materials).

I estimate these tables are $80-$100 each wholesale. Without treatment they would have to be replaced every 2 years. After treatment the majority should last 5vyears at least with some possibly requiring a little maintenance.

What would you charge for this job?

 
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Take your hourly rate and add a few more dollars.  Table sanding is a higher skilled job than serving, so you should get paid like it.

 
I would play it like this

tell the owner to give you one table as a “trial”. Refinish it for free, maybe less materials (stain etc). Once finished you will know how long it takes, so can set a reasonable estimate. At the same time the owner now knows what it looks like finished. From there you are better served to negotiate a price that works for each 

 
When you say grill-style, do you mean the sides of the slats are exposed too, and you have to get stain in there (or you could see where it would run/drip)?

If so, best bet is a bottle of lighter fluid, a match, and an insurance claim.

 
Rustoleum said:
When you say grill-style, do you mean the sides of the slats are exposed too, and you have to get stain in there (or you could see where it would run/drip)?

If so, best bet is a bottle of lighter fluid, a match, and an insurance claim.
Click to expand...
Yes they have slats that will need to be stained inside as well.

 
RokNRole said:
I’ll try to be brief. I work at a restaurant and I’ve recently brought it to the owners attention that he needs to refinish our outdoor patio tables.

Currently they are bare wood with a metal base. Intricate grill style wood patio tops.The tops look like crap. Covered in oil stains from food and some of the joints are starting to warp and separate from being exposed to the elements.

I told him I could fix them, otherwise in 1-2 years he will have to buy new ones and the ones he has now look like crap and not suitable for an upscale restaurant.

Quick scuff with a palm sander. 2 coats of wood stain to hide the oil stains and match the darker interior tables and then 2 coats of poly to seal them from the weather and further staining. Each table is roughly 3x3. Some 5x3. Altogether about 25 tables ( I can get an accurate count tomorrow. I was occupied with explaining the problem to him when guests started coming in that required service).

Just by eyeballing it I can finish the job in under 2 days if it’s days I’m off the clock. If it’s a warm and dry day I could probably start at sun up and finish by sundown due to quick drying. Probably 12-18 hour job and he will buy all the supplies himself ( with my guidance so he doesn’t buy crap materials).

I estimate these tables are $80-$100 each wholesale. Without treatment they would have to be replaced every 2 years. After treatment the majority should last 5vyears at least with some possibly requiring a little maintenance.

What would you charge for this job?
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i think the owner should be more concerned about the quality of the labor and guidance being provided. 

 
22 hour job times $50 an hour. $1100 job that's as boring as it gets. Tell him $1250 in case he wants to haggle. 

 
Slider said:
25 tables with sanding and two coats? You're not doing one every half hour. 
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two coats stain plus two coats poly to seal them. plus repairs because "some of the joints are starting to warp and separate from being exposed to the elements".

 
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Half the cost of new tables = $1250

Your hourly wage plus tips x 20 hours = ? I'd guess less than $1250. Maybe $500 (being generous)

Split the difference at $900.

I'm guessing if you don't lock this in up front he's assuming he's paying you your hourly wage. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
RokNRole said:
I’ll try to be brief. I work at a restaurant and I’ve recently brought it to the owners attention that he needs to refinish our outdoor patio tables.

Currently they are bare wood with a metal base. Intricate grill style wood patio tops.The tops look like crap. Covered in oil stains from food and some of the joints are starting to warp and separate from being exposed to the elements.

I told him I could fix them, otherwise in 1-2 years he will have to buy new ones and the ones he has now look like crap and not suitable for an upscale restaurant.

Quick scuff with a palm sander. 2 coats of wood stain to hide the oil stains and match the darker interior tables and then 2 coats of poly to seal them from the weather and further staining. Each table is roughly 3x3. Some 5x3. Altogether about 25 tables ( I can get an accurate count tomorrow. I was occupied with explaining the problem to him when guests started coming in that required service).

Just by eyeballing it I can finish the job in under 2 days if it’s days I’m off the clock. If it’s a warm and dry day I could probably start at sun up and finish by sundown due to quick drying. Probably 12-18 hour job and he will buy all the supplies himself ( with my guidance so he doesn’t buy crap materials).

I estimate these tables are $80-$100 each wholesale. Without treatment they would have to be replaced every 2 years. After treatment the majority should last 5vyears at least with some possibly requiring a little maintenance.

What would you charge for this job?
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t take this job. 25 $80 tables is not worth the time or money. Nor is it worth his.  

22x9 sq ft (3x3) + 3x15 (5x3) = 243 round up to 250 sq ft. That’s just the tops. If you do the bottoms with at least one layer of sealant (plus sanding) that’s another 250 sq ft. Plus, all the work for in between the slats (which likely requires some type of disassembly) is even more time and costs. So 500 square feet of stain, 750 sq ft of sealant, 500 sq ft of sand paper for the sander. Then add in brushes and cleaner for the brushes. Maybe tarps or plastic wrap to put under the table for drips and drops. Now add another 20% of everything for spills, underestimates, accidents, etc. I’m not sure how bad the warping and splitting is but it’s either going to cost you to buy replacement boards or extra time sanding. 

For your time, it’s not going to be 30 minutes a table. Especially, since you have to get into the gaps/sides and at least one pass underneath. If there is stains deep into the wood your going to have to sand deep and/or get enough stain into to cover it up. Then the time it’s going to take you to pick up all the materials and the time to clean up. Part of your clean up will include, at the minimum, wiping down the metal base/legs. This is if you do it on site as well. Add in more time if you have to move them for loading and unloading. 

This just isn’t worth it for you because he can buy new ones for $2000 so you have to be under that. He has multiple options of styles and such when he buys new. Also, any broken, bent, scratched, scuffed legs aren’t an issue when buying new. 

 
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Borden said:
I wouldn’t take this job. 25 $80 tables is not worth the time or money. Nor is it worth his.  

22x9 sq ft (3x3) + 3x15 (5x3) = 243 round up to 250 sq ft. That’s just the tops. If you do the bottoms with at least one layer of sealant (plus sanding) that’s another 250 sq ft. Plus, all the work for in between the slats (which likely requires some type of disassembly) is even more time and costs. So 500 square feet of stain, 750 coats of sealant, 500 sq ft of sand paper for the sander. Then add in brushes and cleaner for the brushes. Maybe tarps or plastic wrap to put under the table for drips and drops. Now add another 20% of everything for spills, underestimates, accidents, etc. I’m not sure how bad the warping and splitting is but it’s either going to cost you to buy replacement boards or extra time sanding. 

For your time, it’s not going to be 30 minutes a table. Especially, since you have to get into the gaps/sides and at least one pass underneath. If there is stains deep into the wood your going to have to sand deep and/or get enough stain into to cover it up. Then the time it’s going to take you to pick up all the materials and the time to clean up. Part of your clean up will include, at the minimum, wiping down the metal base/legs. This is if you do it on site as well. Add in more time if you have to move them for loading and unloading. 

This just isn’t worth it for you because he can buy new ones for $2000 so you have to be under that. He has multiple options of styles and such when he buys new. Also, any broken, bent, scratched, scuffed legs aren’t an issue when buying new. 
Click to expand...
:goodposting:

Assuming OP is looking for some side work, the shark move might be to show him the wisdom of buying new ones, then talk him into hiring you to pre-seal them to make them last longer.

Get the installation gig too if they come unassembled.

 
RokNRole said:
estimate these tables are $80-$100 each wholesale. Without treatment they would have to be replaced every 2 years. After treatment the majority should last 5vyears at least with some possibly requiring a little maintenance.
Click to expand...
It seems the best thing he could do is sell them for 35-50 each, buy new ones and hire you to throw on a couple coats of poly

 
-OZ- said:
Half the cost of new tables = $1250

Your hourly wage plus tips x 20 hours = ? I'd guess less than $1250. Maybe $500 (being generous)

Split the difference at $900.

I'm guessing if you don't lock this in up front he's assuming he's paying you your hourly wage. 
Click to expand...
I was very clear that I’m doing this on my days off at a set fee. 

 
Going to try to answer several replies in this post.

The tables that are starting to separate aren’t too bad and can be fixed with a couple coats of poly.

The tables have oil stains so they will also require two coats of dark stain to blend them in. Won’t require more than a light sanding just to ensure the stain takes well.

I can stain and poly between the slats without having to take anything apart. It will add a little time per table. The undersides of the tables will be more difficult than the slats because of how the metal bases are attached. I don’t think underneath will have to be perfect so I won’t have to waste much time there.

This guy is extremely cheap and also well known for not being bright. He obviously skirted some costs on the construction of the place. It looks good at first glance but if you look closer the finish contractors did a very shabby job, particularly on the ceiling where they figured it wouldn’t be noticed.

Im thinking $50 per table would work for me. He will likely scoff at $750 but we spoke today about doing a test table to see if he’s happy with what I can do.

Knowing him I’m pretty sure he will observe me do one and then try to do the rest himself. Watching that would be priceless but he will probably just hire some illegal to do it for less. Then it’s hit or miss for him. The guy he hires may do a good job but chances are he will still need to purchase new tables in a year or two for being a cheap idiot.

Either way he will convince himself he made the correct decision and walk around like IL Duce

 
If this is the type of thing you enjoy, I’d be interested to hear about why you chose the restaurant business when construction and contracting can be more lucrative?

 
lakerstan said:
If this is the type of thing you enjoy, I’d be interested to hear about why you chose the restaurant business when construction and contracting can be more lucrative?
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Well if he can thoroughly sand badly worn tables and put a couple coats of stain and poly on them in an average of 30 minutes, he is in the wrong business.  If I was his boss, I would hire him for the flat fee just for the laughs.  

 
Dedfin said:
There is a 0% chance of this working out for OP.
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I don't think any of us are worried about that, what are the odds that this is entertaining to us? Like Charlie Brown and that football, we all knew there was a 0 % chance he was going to kick it, but we were highly entertained. 

 
Price out your tools and materials from Home Depot online. Until you do that there’s no point in discussing anything else. You have to know that first. 

 
Sanding and staining and poly will not fix the separating issue. If they are separating badly, you need ot cut the table at the separation and reglue. If it is minor, you can probanly just glue and clamp. However long you think this is going to take you, you probably need to just about double it. No way this is going to go as smoothly as you think it is

 
I like how he continues to work for (by his words) an idiot who is cheap and will steal his ideas. Sounds like they should switch positions. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
I don't think any of us are worried about that, what are the odds that this is entertaining to us? Like Charlie Brown and that football, we all knew there was a 0 % chance he was going to kick it, but we were highly entertained. 
Click to expand...
:yawn:  highly entertained? speak for yourself. the pattern of the OP's threads continues. he starts a thread asking for advice, receives legit advice in the responses, then responds by arguing with those providing the advice;telling them they don't know what they're talking about. he then states he is going to continue on the path he laid out in his initial post. 

for a guy with so many questions, he sure seems to have all of the answers.

to use your analogy, the FFA is charlie brown and the OP is lucy continuing to yank the football away .....every time. 

 
the moops said:
Sanding and staining and poly will not fix the separating issue. If they are separating badly, you need ot cut the table at the separation and reglue. If it is minor, you can probanly just glue and clamp. However long you think this is going to take you, you probably need to just about double it. No way this is going to go as smoothly as you think it is
Click to expand...
They aren’t separating that badly. A few corners are just starting to separate. I’m pretty sure that sealing them with poly do the trick so they no longer get wet.

 
Slider said:
I like how he continues to work for (by his words) an idiot who is cheap and will steal his ideas. Sounds like they should switch positions. 
Click to expand...
Things would run a lot smoother and we would retain a lot more staff.

Have you ever had to deal with restaurant owners and managers?

 
Borden said:
Price out your tools and materials from Home Depot online. Until you do that there’s no point in discussing anything else. You have to know that first. 
Click to expand...
I gave the owner a list of l the supplies needed. I offered to pick up a few things just to do a test table and bring the receipt  but he insisted on picking them up himself.

 
lakerstan said:
If this is the type of thing you enjoy, I’d be interested to hear about why you chose the restaurant business when construction and contracting can be more lucrative?
Click to expand...
This is pretty much the extent of my construction knowledge.

 
Megaton said:
Well if he can thoroughly sand badly worn tables and put a couple coats of stain and poly on them in an average of 30 minutes, he is in the wrong business.  If I was his boss, I would hire him for the flat fee just for the laughs.  
Click to expand...
They aren’t badly worn. They are under a year old.

Look I’ll just get some photos of the tables tonight.

 
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