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Cutler of Vandy (1 Viewer)

I'm really starting to look forward to the game on Sunday. From what little they've shown of him during the practices I've been extremely impressed. Cutler looks like he has all the tools to be an NFL QB and his success will depend on how he can handle pressure and not mistakes.
It's Saturday, 3pm est, espn.I just watched the coverage of practice. They had the camera on Cutler for a whole segment as he ran redzone plays against 7 then 11. He threw one awful duck that got away from him, but he made some impressive throws into traffic. Threading the needle has been one of the positives in his scouting reports, and he showed it a couple times hitting Dom Byrd (TE USC) for TDs when he was pretty well covered. Hagan dropped a TD throw, and Avant made a nice play in the back of the endzone on another nice throw from Cutler. Klopfenstein also caught a TD pass from Cutler. MRobinson took over and the difference was obvious, though he ran for a score and threw another.

Don't make too much of the game though. Remember Pinegar was a standout in practice for the Shrine game and then played badly.

 
Until NFL personnel evaluators accept that their current methods of player evaluation are significantly flawed, there are going to remain a ton of guys who in retrospect turn out to be "busts" and "reaches", particularly at a position like QB where physical measurables and throwing motion are just the tip of the iceburg in terms of what ultimately leads to extreme success.
How can they improve player evaluations?
Component skills analysis, not unlike what's been happening in baseball over the last decade, would be a start.
Pretend I am ignorant of this component business and have no interest in baseball, then explain this improvement in player evaluations idea in a little detail. I'm real curious.
Until NFL personnel evaluators accept that their current methods of player evaluation are significantly flawed, there are going to remain a ton of guys who in retrospect turn out to be "busts" and "reaches", particularly at a position like QB where physical measurables and throwing motion are just the tip of the iceburg in terms of what ultimately leads to extreme success.
How can they improve player evaluations?
Component skills analysis, not unlike what's been happening in baseball over the last decade, would be a start.
Pretend I am ignorant of this component business and have no interest in baseball, then explain this improvement in player evaluations idea in a little detail. I'm real curious.
FWIW Wood, I've thought about this before, but don't see how it will work with football.With baseball it comes down to a few functions. As most here don't care about baseball, I'll use an example of one area it might work for the NFL.

Take a WR, any WR. Take the targets stats kept on FBG's premium content (small plug), but divide that by where it is in relation to the WR's body. Essentially, divide the area around the WR into tiny sections, sort of like a dot matrix, and see how many balls he catches or drops or doesn't get a hand on for each dot. You can also take into account trajectory or velocity. For example, if Chad Johnson catches every pass that hits him just above his right shoulder, but Palmer has only thrown it there 8 times, but Chad drops half the balls that hit above his left shoulder, but Palmer throws it there 20 times, the targets would just show 18/28, while this program would show much more of what happens. (then add traectory/velocity stats)

This is just a small portion of the possibilities, and my explanation isn't perfect, but if you can follow it, you have a fair idea of what Wood's talking about.

You can imagine doing this for QBs, using the field as well as the WR, but where I have a problem imagining using this is running and blocking.
I don't pretend to be the guy to foster this changeover, I've not devoted my professional career to it. However, I DO think I [and others including yourselves] will agree that the results of the NFL draft are decidedly too unsteady in terms of player performance versus draft slot to suggest there isn't room for real and significant improvement.One area I think needs addressing is a myopic focus on measurables. I'm sure most personnel execs and scouts would say they no longer overfocus on things like 40 times, but yet, the way the draft plays out screams against that. Guys wow these scouts with physical displays that have little to no statistical correlation to onfield football performance and all of the sudden they vault up [or down].

It would be fascinating to see some of these folks take a long and hard look at what traits [both physical and mental] the great players at each position possess. I'm guessing that bench press, 40-time, and height are in many cases far down the list of predictive attributes.

My $0.02
True, but they are easily measured. The intangibles that players that have "it" have, can't be easily assesses, or compared.
 
Kiper's take after Wednesday's practice:

Vanderbilt QB Jay Cutler has been receiving rave reviews and has a live arm, but he is not as precise or as accurate as USC's Matt Leinart. He has not allowed his receivers to maximize their receptions. When separating the top QBs in the 2006 draft, I'd still rank Leinart and Vince Young above Cutler. However, Cutler will still be in the top 10 draft picks, probably at No. 10 to Arizona or No. 9 to Detroit.

 
Kiper's take after Wednesday's practice:

Vanderbilt QB Jay Cutler has been receiving rave reviews and has a live arm, but he is not as precise or as accurate as USC's Matt Leinart. He has not allowed his receivers to maximize their receptions. When separating the top QBs in the 2006 draft, I'd still rank Leinart and Vince Young above Cutler. However, Cutler will still be in the top 10 draft picks, probably at No. 10 to Arizona or No. 9 to Detroit.
Makes me wonder if Cutler shouldn't dodge the Combine at this point (for his own good). Certainly Leinart and Hawk were smart to avoid a week of comparisons to Cutler and Greenway. Cutler likely cannot get any more value or hype. He should just work out on his own, have a pro day, and cruise into the draft. He is not moving up any further at his position, and it very doubtful he coud do any more to convince the Jets/Raiders/Lions/Cards/Dolphins to take him.
 
Kiper's take after Wednesday's practice:

Vanderbilt QB Jay Cutler has been receiving rave reviews and has a live arm, but he is not as precise or as accurate as USC's Matt Leinart. He has not allowed his receivers to maximize their receptions. When separating the top QBs in the 2006 draft, I'd still rank Leinart and Vince Young above Cutler. However, Cutler will still be in the top 10 draft picks, probably at No. 10 to Arizona or No. 9 to Detroit.
Makes me wonder if Cutler shouldn't dodge the Combine at this point (for his own good). Certainly Leinart and Hawk were smart to avoid a week of comparisons to Cutler and Greenway. Cutler likely cannot get any more value or hype. He should just work out on his own, have a pro day, and cruise into the draft. He is not moving up any further at his position, and it very doubtful he coud do any more to convince the Jets/Raiders/Lions/Cards/Dolphins to take him.
Agreed...I think the only scnerio where he can move higher is out of his control, meaning if Vince Young really flounders in his Pro Day [which I don't expect].
 
I would imagine Cutler will only interview at the combine and work out as his pro day. No need to throw or run, though he might surprise with a 4.8 40 time.

 
I would imagine Cutler will only interview at the combine and work out as his pro day. No need to throw or run, though he might surprise with a 4.8 40 time.
There's no sense in having his arm compared to say... Omar's at this point.
 
FWIW, Mort just did a piece on ESPN Insider saying that Cutler is better than both Young and Leinart. He noted the moxie, the charisma, the ability to lift his team to be competitive as huge traits for him. Coupled with his cannon, allowing balls to go on deep outs and into seems, skills that the other two QBs don't really have, and Mort puts Cutler at the top.

 
FWIW, Mort just did a piece on ESPN Insider saying that Cutler is better than both Young and Leinart.  He noted the moxie, the charisma, the ability to lift his team to be competitive as huge traits for him.  Coupled with his cannon, allowing balls to go on deep outs and into seems, skills that the other two QBs don't really have, and Mort puts Cutler at the top.
There you have it. No combine for Cutler (if he was ever considering it). Have a nice pro day. Wear a nice suit to New York and land a top ten first round slot to a decent team. And maybe be the best qb in the draft after a couple of years sort of like Roethlisberger.

J

 
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FWIW, Mort just did a piece on ESPN Insider saying that Cutler is better than both Young and Leinart. He noted the moxie, the charisma, the ability to lift his team to be competitive as huge traits for him. Coupled with his cannon, allowing balls to go on deep outs and into seems, skills that the other two QBs don't really have, and Mort puts Cutler at the top.
I have a ton of respect for Mort, but if he keeps this uber pimping of specific players up, I may throw much of what he says right out the window. That man-love piece he wrote on Matt Jones last year bordered on stalking, and his touts of Cutler aren't much more balanced.
 
FWIW, Mort just did a piece on ESPN Insider saying that Cutler is better than both Young and Leinart.  He noted the moxie, the charisma, the ability to lift his team to be competitive as huge traits for him.  Coupled with his cannon, allowing balls to go on deep outs and into seems, skills that the other two QBs don't really have, and Mort puts Cutler at the top.
I have a ton of respect for Mort, but if he keeps this uber pimping of specific players up, I may throw much of what he says right out the window. That man-love piece he wrote on Matt Jones last year bordered on stalking, and his touts of Cutler aren't much more balanced.
Keep in mind Cutler went down to Little Rock this year and beat Morts Razorbacks.
 
FWIW, Mort just did a piece on ESPN Insider saying that Cutler is better than both Young and Leinart. He noted the moxie, the charisma, the ability to lift his team to be competitive as huge traits for him. Coupled with his cannon, allowing balls to go on deep outs and into seems, skills that the other two QBs don't really have, and Mort puts Cutler at the top.
I have a ton of respect for Mort, but if he keeps this uber pimping of specific players up, I may throw much of what he says right out the window. That man-love piece he wrote on Matt Jones last year bordered on stalking, and his touts of Cutler aren't much more balanced.
I agree with your point, but in Mort's defense, Jones has looked downright impressive this season. Maybe he got one right? ;)
 
FWIW, Mort just did a piece on ESPN Insider saying that Cutler is better than both Young and Leinart. He noted the moxie, the charisma, the ability to lift his team to be competitive as huge traits for him. Coupled with his cannon, allowing balls to go on deep outs and into seems, skills that the other two QBs don't really have, and Mort puts Cutler at the top.
I read the Mort article and agree with much of what he said. Namely, when he was comparing the three QBs(Leinart, Young, Cutler). Basically it wasn't the extreme level of man-love like the Matt Jones stuff last season, at least not yet, but more along the lines of each QB offered a differint set of tools. -Leinart of the smart, expereinced, timing thrower.

-Young the amazing athlete, clutch player, with some arm questions.

-Cutler the over-achieving kid, with a cannon arm.

He just said that he thought Cutler's skill translated better to the NFL and if he could buy stock in any of the three it would be Cutler. And mentioned that some NFL people were saying the same thing.

It's going to be a very interesting draft. The 3 QBs will each had people big time in their camps. I'm not so sure that the order of them is set in stone yet. But I agree that whoever told Leinart to stay away for the Senior Bowl deserves a raise.

 
FWIW, Mort just did a piece on ESPN Insider saying that Cutler is better than both Young and Leinart. He noted the moxie, the charisma, the ability to lift his team to be competitive as huge traits for him. Coupled with his cannon, allowing balls to go on deep outs and into seems, skills that the other two QBs don't really have, and Mort puts Cutler at the top.
I have a ton of respect for Mort, but if he keeps this uber pimping of specific players up, I may throw much of what he says right out the window. That man-love piece he wrote on Matt Jones last year bordered on stalking, and his touts of Cutler aren't much more balanced.
I don't think it's at all unbalanced to rank Cutler's potential higher than Leinart's and Young's. Controversial, sure, but not unbalanced. I ranked them Cutler, Young, Leinart, here before the Rose Bowl. I wasn't trying to be controversial or trying to hype Cutler. I am trying to get this right. We can disagree in our thinking. That's fine. I may be in a huge minority with Mort. That's okay. I have watched Leinart extensively. I don't think I've missed a start. I've seen Cutler all of three times.

I only saw Roethlisberger once when I thought he was the best of his class. Yes, I made that claim to some scorn at FFToday a couple years back. If the archives weren't crashed I'd gladly link to my thoughts on him vs Manning/Rivers. I'm not new to ranking Cutler this high. Wildman, who is Matt Waldman, posts here very rarely, but if he comes by he can verify that I ranked Cutler this high since about mid November when I moved him ahead of Young (something I still waver on, btw). Young could be amazing. But, the risk is amazing too.

Rather than criticize Leinart with the worn out arm strength concern and the fact that he's been surrounded by amazing talent and blessed with unrealistic protection. I'd rather praise Cutler. But when Stanford's HC said Trent Edwards could do as well as Leinart at SC, I agreed. Trent Edwards is pretty good.

Cutler has been playing under NFL pressure for a couple years. The NFL game won't seem so unbelievably fast to him. He makes fast reads and throws accurate lasers to players who are barely open. His receivers have barely been able to get open by the time his line has caved in. He's had about the same protection as a good NFL QB gets. Rarely do NFL QBs sit in the pocket for five six seven seconds like Leinart and Young and Jacobs for that matter. No, they have to read and react in a split second, and they better have some juice on the ball and be able to place it precisely. I see all this in Cutler. Leinart and Young have enjoyed the luxury of protection and wide wide open receivers. Sure they've hit them, and sure that's worth something, but it isn't nearly as impressive or realistic. They both have the bad habit of floating the ball, and here's the dirty little secret on Leinart. He is not very accurate down the field. He floats it high, and he loses accuracy when he tries to zing it. Cutler zings it with accuracy and he has some nice touch when he needs to time a receiver. He has a much more impressive arsenal of throws, he's a far better athlete, he's quicker to read and react, and I agree with those few brave souls who think he's the best of this class.

 
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People have been calling Cutler "Boller all over." I think that's too much credit. He's JP Losman all over. Mort (or whoever) saying he's better than Leinart or Young is ridiculous. Yeah yeah Chris, Cutler is a great passer and a wonderful field leader and he was the crux of the Dores team. All of this fails to realize that, discounting Carson Palmer, Leinart and Young are the best performing QBs in college since Peyton Manning.......actually, even better than those guys.

 
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People have been calling Cutler "Boller all over." I think that's too much credit. He's JP Losman all over. Mort (or whoever) saying he's better than Leinart or Young is ridiculous. Yeah yeah Chris, Cutler is a great passer and a wonderful field leader and he was the crux of the Dores team. All of this fails to realize that, discounting Carson Palmer, Leinart and Young are the best performing QBs in college since Peyton Manning....

...actually, even better than those guys.
Colt Brennan, Cody Hodges, and Brady Quinn put up better numbers than Leinart and Young this year. Young and Leinart played for the best teams. So did Ken Dorsey and Craig Krenzel a few years back. I'm not comparing the four, but it's a bit short sighted to lionize the Texas and USC QBs as "best performing" when it was their teams performing. On a play for play individual basis, Cutler has as strong a resume as either of them. Especially if you're seeking plays that translate to NFL success. It's not at all ridiculous to grade Cutler higher, but if you want to be insulting, so be it. Some people scout by stats. Some people scout by measureables. Some people look at a combination of both.

If you're looking for measureable talent in a prototypical QB package, you have to appreciate Jay Cutler. I scoffed at Boller and Losman, btw. You can't believe Leinart could have been as productive as Jay at Vandy. Well, you could but I would beg you to go to the tape. Leinart is not capable of the making many plays I watched Cutler make this year. He doesn't have the wheels or the arm. It's pretty simple, really, and far from ridiculous.

 
People have been calling Cutler "Boller all over." I think that's too much credit. He's JP Losman all over. Mort (or whoever) saying he's better than Leinart or Young is ridiculous. Yeah yeah Chris, Cutler is a great passer and a wonderful field leader and he was the crux of the Dores team. All of this fails to realize that, discounting Carson Palmer, Leinart and Young are the best performing QBs in college since Peyton Manning....

...actually, even better than those guys.
Cutler is Losman plus leadership and ability to read the field.
 
People have been calling Cutler "Boller all over." I think that's too much credit. He's JP Losman all over. Mort (or whoever) saying he's better than Leinart or Young is ridiculous. Yeah yeah Chris, Cutler is a great passer and a wonderful field leader and he was the crux of the Dores team. All of this fails to realize that, discounting Carson Palmer, Leinart and Young are the best performing QBs in college since Peyton Manning....

...actually, even better than those guys.
Colt Brennan, Cody Hodges, and Brady Quinn put up better numbers than Leinart and Young this year. Young and Leinart played for the best teams. So did Ken Dorsey and Craig Krenzel a few years back. I'm not comparing the four, but it's a bit short sighted to lionize the Texas and USC QBs as "best performing" when it was their teams performing. On a play for play individual basis, Cutler has as strong a resume as either of them. Especially if you're seeking plays that translate to NFL success. It's not at all ridiculous to grade Cutler higher, but if you want to be insulting, so be it. Some people scout by stats. Some people scout by measureables. Some people look at a combination of both.

If you're looking for measureable talent in a prototypical QB package, you have to appreciate Jay Cutler. I scoffed at Boller and Losman, btw. You can't believe Leinart could have been as productive as Jay at Vandy. Well, you could but I would beg you to go to the tape. Leinart is not capable of the making many plays I watched Cutler make this year. He doesn't have the wheels or the arm. It's pretty simple, really, and far from ridiculous.
People have been calling Cutler "Boller all over." I think that's too much credit. He's JP Losman all over. Mort (or whoever) saying he's better than Leinart or Young is ridiculous. Yeah yeah Chris, Cutler is a great passer and a wonderful field leader and he was the crux of the Dores team. All of this fails to realize that, discounting Carson Palmer, Leinart and Young are the best performing QBs in college since Peyton Manning....

...actually, even better than those guys.
Cutler is Losman plus leadership and ability to read the field.
I disagree with all of this, and I actually like Cutler.
 
My problem with Mort's piece (insider req'd) was this statement:

"The Titans, picking third in the draft, could be that team -- if Cutler gets past the New Orleans Saints at No. 2."

This is a bit premature. Maybe he'll wind up as high as 2, sure, but this sure feels like Mort artificially raising that stock of a guy that he likes. This is literally the first mention I've ever heard of Cutler "maybe getting past NO at 2." Is Mort just putting that out there to generate heat and/or buzz? Has every other draft source been wrong so far? Or has practice at the Senior Bowl changed everything? Because several Cutler reviews have been mixed, and even those that have been glowing haven't said anything _new_, just that he's as good as advertised.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy. A lot. I remember when Bloom was one of the first people anywhere to put him in a draft top 10 like way back in December.

I just can't tell if Mort is pushing an agenda or reporting...

[Editing for spelling. B/c I'm caught up in that s***.]

 
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My problem with Mort's piece (insider req'd) was this statement:

"The Titans, picking third in the draft, could be that team -- if Cutler gets past the New Orleans Saints at No. 2."

This is a bit premature. Maybe he'll wind up as high as 2, sure, but this sure feels like Mort artificially raising that stock of a guy that he likes. This is literally the first mention I've ever heard of Cutler "maybe getting past NO at 2." Is Mort just putting that out there to generate heat and/or buzz? Has every other draft source been wrong so far? Or has practice at the Senior Bowl changed everything? Because several Cutler reviews have been mixed, and even those that have been glowing haven't said anything _new_, just that he's as good as advertised.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy. A lot. I remember when Bloom was one of the first people anywhere to put him in a draft top 10 like way back in December.

I just can't tell if Mort is pushing an agenda or reporting...

[Editing for spelling. B/c I'm caught up in that s***.]
EXACTLY!This is my problem with Mort, 11 months out of the year he openly admits knowing very little about the college game. People will ask him about a certain player or a certain team need and he'll defer, CORRECTLY pointing out that he's too busy following the NFL to focus on the college guys. Then, all of the sudden he's speaking as if Jay "Vanderbilt" Cutler would be PASSED OVER by New Orleans?!?!?!?

If we presume for a second that guys at GBN, NFL Draft Scout, Scouts Inc, Kiper, NFL Draft Countdown pay more attention [i'm not saying they're all better talent evaluators, but that they pay more attention than Mort for 90% of the year [if not more], show me which of those guys had a pre Senior Bowl projection of Cutler as a top 2 draft prospect.

Cutler looks very likely to be a top-10 selection at this point [but many thought Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith would both be top 10 LOCKS last year], but you have to realize that Leinart and Young haven't had their day in the sun yet.

Here is the thing that most frustrates me about the way people speak re: Matt Leinart:

..."He had all that talent at USC"...Guess what folks, in the NFL these guys are going to have talent BETTER than USC. Leinart has commanded an offense that is the closest proxy for the speed and talent he'll be dealing with in the NFL. By making silly statements like "Jay Cutler could do what Leinart did at SC but not vice versa" really shows a MASSIVE naivety toward the requirements of the QB position. MAYBE Cutler could've succeeded...but Leinert DID succeed. He not only played well, he played EXCEPTIONALLY well in the biggest of stages. The entire world was looking at Leinart to fail and he didn't. Anything short of another picture perfect Heisman-worthy season and the critics would've been out in full force. And let's not forget that Leinert stepped into a situation replacing Carson Palmer, not the most enviable of tasks.

Winning when you're supposed to is as important a skill as any the quarterback needs for long-term success.

 
NFL Draft Scout says Cutler has been the story through the first two days of practice...

"Seemed more comfortable today" [1/24]

"Placing the ball more accurately"

"Jaw-dropping zip"

"If he continues on this pace...will be vying for top 10 pick status AND may be higher than Leinart on some boards"
My friend who is there claims Cutler looks like the only QB capable of playing successfully in the NFL. I told him there's reports here and there that he's been inaccurate and not looking THAT good. It's just that the other QBs have been really bad. I directed him to comments at GBN and NFLDC (both sites thought Whitehurst looked as good or better today), and he laughed. "Whitehurst threw two beautiful interceptions and three more ugly balls that should have been intercepted. They don't know what they're talking about. Cutler is solid, has a huge arm, puts the ball on the money, makes great reads yada yada. The rest of the QBs look lost in comparison." :shrug:
Hey Chaos,I think the Pro-Cutler outlook is the more accurate one. I don't know the guys at NFLDC that well, but I can say emphatically that GBN has unfortunately taken a turn for the worse since the untimely passing of Frank.

For what it's worth NFL Draft Scout said Cutler looked erratic at times in the first day of practice, and it appeared to be nerves...but he was head and tail above all the other QBs that day. And the quotes I mentioned in my previous post were from the 2nd day, where it appears Cutler started to settle in and show himself to be closer to Young and Leinart than the rest of the pack.

My issue right now is that guys like Chris Mortensen and Ron Jaworski really ARE NOT draft guys. They say things like, "Cutler is higher on some boards than Leinart" based on unfounded opinion and "heard in the hallways" stuff. Honestly. At this point, with Leinert yet to work out, Young yet to work out, and Cutler really an unknown to a lot of folks, I guarantee that most NFL teams DON'T EVEN HAVE A BOARD yet much less would they be able to say Cutler is higher than the other 1st round guys.
All I can say to the head and shoulders above the rest is that there's no way that Cutler would have done what Vince Young did to USC with the National Championship on the line.I don't know what's going on at these camps, maybe they don't take it as serious as they should but I know what I saw with the chips on the table. Vince Young by many is now considered the best college football player of all time.

Now, a month later a guy named Cutler is looking better in an afterthought bowl game and some workouts.

I don't buy it, that's something the Detroit Lions would fall for.

 
My problem with Mort's piece (insider req'd) was this statement:

"The Titans, picking third in the draft, could be that team -- if Cutler gets past the New Orleans Saints at No. 2."

This is a bit premature.  Maybe he'll wind up as high as 2, sure, but this sure feels like Mort artificially raising that stock of a guy that he likes.  This is literally the first mention I've ever heard of Cutler "maybe getting past NO at 2."  Is Mort just putting that out there to generate heat and/or buzz?  Has every other draft source been wrong so far?  Or has practice at the Senior Bowl changed everything?  Because several Cutler reviews have been mixed, and even those that have been glowing haven't said anything _new_, just that he's as good as advertised.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy.  A lot.  I remember when Bloom was one of the first people anywhere to put him in a draft top 10 like way back in December. 

I just can't tell if Mort is pushing an agenda or reporting...

[Editing for spelling.  B/c I'm caught up in that s***.]
EXACTLY!This is my problem with Mort, 11 months out of the year he openly admits knowing very little about the college game. People will ask him about a certain player or a certain team need and he'll defer, CORRECTLY pointing out that he's too busy following the NFL to focus on the college guys. Then, all of the sudden he's speaking as if Jay "Vanderbilt" Cutler would be PASSED OVER by New Orleans?!?!?!?

If we presume for a second that guys at GBN, NFL Draft Scout, Scouts Inc, Kiper, NFL Draft Countdown pay more attention [i'm not saying they're all better talent evaluators, but that they pay more attention than Mort for 90% of the year [if not more], show me which of those guys had a pre Senior Bowl projection of Cutler as a top 2 draft prospect.

Cutler looks very likely to be a top-10 selection at this point [but many thought Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith would both be top 10 LOCKS last year], but you have to realize that Leinart and Young haven't had their day in the sun yet.

Here is the thing that most frustrates me about the way people speak re: Matt Leinart:

..."He had all that talent at USC"...Guess what folks, in the NFL these guys are going to have talent BETTER than USC. Leinart has commanded an offense that is the closest proxy for the speed and talent he'll be dealing with in the NFL. By making silly statements like "Jay Cutler could do what Leinart did at SC but not vice versa" really shows a MASSIVE naivety toward the requirements of the QB position. MAYBE Cutler could've succeeded...but Leinert DID succeed. He not only played well, he played EXCEPTIONALLY well in the biggest of stages. The entire world was looking at Leinart to fail and he didn't. Anything short of another picture perfect Heisman-worthy season and the critics would've been out in full force. And let's not forget that Leinert stepped into a situation replacing Carson Palmer, not the most enviable of tasks.

Winning when you're supposed to is as important a skill as any the quarterback needs for long-term success.
And to piggyback Jason.......they said the same thing about Carson Palmer. Yeah, he's a tall kid with a good arm but look at all the talent, anyone could succees.And then with Kitna in there at first and Leinart playing well as a sophomore I believe, everyone said see, look at that, anyone can do it there. Palmer isn't that good.

Well, Palmer is that good. He's going to be a great pro........and believe what you see with your own eyes. Leinert is a good QB and will be a solid pro as well. It just happens that USC had two very good Qb's go back to back there. Sure the system is good but any coach will tell you that you have to have the horses to pull the plow.

 
NFL Draft Scout says Cutler has been the story through the first two days of practice...

"Seemed more comfortable today" [1/24]

"Placing the ball more accurately"

"Jaw-dropping zip"

"If he continues on this pace...will be vying for top 10 pick status AND may be higher than Leinart on some boards"
My friend who is there claims Cutler looks like the only QB capable of playing successfully in the NFL. I told him there's reports here and there that he's been inaccurate and not looking THAT good. It's just that the other QBs have been really bad. I directed him to comments at GBN and NFLDC (both sites thought Whitehurst looked as good or better today), and he laughed. "Whitehurst threw two beautiful interceptions and three more ugly balls that should have been intercepted. They don't know what they're talking about. Cutler is solid, has a huge arm, puts the ball on the money, makes great reads yada yada. The rest of the QBs look lost in comparison." :shrug:
Hey Chaos,I think the Pro-Cutler outlook is the more accurate one. I don't know the guys at NFLDC that well, but I can say emphatically that GBN has unfortunately taken a turn for the worse since the untimely passing of Frank.

For what it's worth NFL Draft Scout said Cutler looked erratic at times in the first day of practice, and it appeared to be nerves...but he was head and tail above all the other QBs that day. And the quotes I mentioned in my previous post were from the 2nd day, where it appears Cutler started to settle in and show himself to be closer to Young and Leinart than the rest of the pack.

My issue right now is that guys like Chris Mortensen and Ron Jaworski really ARE NOT draft guys. They say things like, "Cutler is higher on some boards than Leinart" based on unfounded opinion and "heard in the hallways" stuff. Honestly. At this point, with Leinert yet to work out, Young yet to work out, and Cutler really an unknown to a lot of folks, I guarantee that most NFL teams DON'T EVEN HAVE A BOARD yet much less would they be able to say Cutler is higher than the other 1st round guys.
All I can say to the head and shoulders above the rest is that there's no way that Cutler would have done what Vince Young did to USC with the National Championship on the line.I don't know what's going on at these camps, maybe they don't take it as serious as they should but I know what I saw with the chips on the table. Vince Young by many is now considered the best college football player of all time.

Now, a month later a guy named Cutler is looking better in an afterthought bowl game and some workouts.

I don't buy it, that's something the Detroit Lions would fall for.
I guess we will find out next fall, but if I'm a GM with a high pick I want a QB that can stand the test of time, and I don't believe Young will able to.
 
My problem with Mort's piece (insider req'd) was this statement:

"The Titans, picking third in the draft, could be that team -- if Cutler gets past the New Orleans Saints at No. 2."

This is a bit premature.  Maybe he'll wind up as high as 2, sure, but this sure feels like Mort artificially raising that stock of a guy that he likes.  This is literally the first mention I've ever heard of Cutler "maybe getting past NO at 2."  Is Mort just putting that out there to generate heat and/or buzz?  Has every other draft source been wrong so far?  Or has practice at the Senior Bowl changed everything?  Because several Cutler reviews have been mixed, and even those that have been glowing haven't said anything _new_, just that he's as good as advertised.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy.  A lot.  I remember when Bloom was one of the first people anywhere to put him in a draft top 10 like way back in December. 

I just can't tell if Mort is pushing an agenda or reporting...

[Editing for spelling.  B/c I'm caught up in that s***.]
EXACTLY!This is my problem with Mort, 11 months out of the year he openly admits knowing very little about the college game. People will ask him about a certain player or a certain team need and he'll defer, CORRECTLY pointing out that he's too busy following the NFL to focus on the college guys. Then, all of the sudden he's speaking as if Jay "Vanderbilt" Cutler would be PASSED OVER by New Orleans?!?!?!?

If we presume for a second that guys at GBN, NFL Draft Scout, Scouts Inc, Kiper, NFL Draft Countdown pay more attention [i'm not saying they're all better talent evaluators, but that they pay more attention than Mort for 90% of the year [if not more], show me which of those guys had a pre Senior Bowl projection of Cutler as a top 2 draft prospect.

Cutler looks very likely to be a top-10 selection at this point [but many thought Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith would both be top 10 LOCKS last year], but you have to realize that Leinart and Young haven't had their day in the sun yet.

Here is the thing that most frustrates me about the way people speak re: Matt Leinart:

..."He had all that talent at USC"...Guess what folks, in the NFL these guys are going to have talent BETTER than USC. Leinart has commanded an offense that is the closest proxy for the speed and talent he'll be dealing with in the NFL. By making silly statements like "Jay Cutler could do what Leinart did at SC but not vice versa" really shows a MASSIVE naivety toward the requirements of the QB position. MAYBE Cutler could've succeeded...but Leinert DID succeed. He not only played well, he played EXCEPTIONALLY well in the biggest of stages. The entire world was looking at Leinart to fail and he didn't. Anything short of another picture perfect Heisman-worthy season and the critics would've been out in full force. And let's not forget that Leinert stepped into a situation replacing Carson Palmer, not the most enviable of tasks.

Winning when you're supposed to is as important a skill as any the quarterback needs for long-term success.
And to piggyback Jason.......they said the same thing about Carson Palmer. Yeah, he's a tall kid with a good arm but look at all the talent, anyone could succees.And then with Kitna in there at first and Leinart playing well as a sophomore I believe, everyone said see, look at that, anyone can do it there. Palmer isn't that good.

Well, Palmer is that good. He's going to be a great pro........and believe what you see with your own eyes. Leinert is a good QB and will be a solid pro as well. It just happens that USC had two very good Qb's go back to back there. Sure the system is good but any coach will tell you that you have to have the horses to pull the plow.
If Leinart didn't play at USC I doubt there would be anyone on this board comparing him to Palmer. They are very differint QBs. Both had a great deal of success at USC obviously. But as pro QB prospects they bring a totally differint set of tools.
 
People have been calling Cutler "Boller all over." I think that's too much credit.  He's JP Losman all over. Mort (or whoever) saying he's better than Leinart or Young is ridiculous.  Yeah yeah Chris, Cutler is a great passer and a wonderful field leader and he was the crux of the Dores team.  All of this fails to realize that, discounting Carson Palmer,  Leinart and Young are the best performing QBs in college since Peyton Manning....

...actually, even better than those guys.
Colt Brennan, Cody Hodges, and Brady Quinn put up better numbers than Leinart and Young this year. Young and Leinart played for the best teams. So did Ken Dorsey and Craig Krenzel a few years back. I'm not comparing the four, but it's a bit short sighted to lionize the Texas and USC QBs as "best performing" when it was their teams performing. On a play for play individual basis, Cutler has as strong a resume as either of them. Especially if you're seeking plays that translate to NFL success. It's not at all ridiculous to grade Cutler higher, but if you want to be insulting, so be it. Some people scout by stats. Some people scout by measureables. Some people look at a combination of both.

If you're looking for measureable talent in a prototypical QB package, you have to appreciate Jay Cutler. I scoffed at Boller and Losman, btw. You can't believe Leinart could have been as productive as Jay at Vandy. Well, you could but I would beg you to go to the tape. Leinart is not capable of the making many plays I watched Cutler make this year. He doesn't have the wheels or the arm. It's pretty simple, really, and far from ridiculous.
People have been calling Cutler "Boller all over." I think that's too much credit.  He's JP Losman all over. Mort (or whoever) saying he's better than Leinart or Young is ridiculous.  Yeah yeah Chris, Cutler is a great passer and a wonderful field leader and he was the crux of the Dores team.  All of this fails to realize that, discounting Carson Palmer,  Leinart and Young are the best performing QBs in college since Peyton Manning....

...actually, even better than those guys.
Cutler is Losman plus leadership and ability to read the field.
I disagree with all of this, and I actually like Cutler.
How can you disagree with Cutler as a leader? Didn't he lead the team to this ---> http://content.scout.com/a.z?s=189&p=3&blipid=14442PS: That link is mostly for Joe :pics:

 
My problem with Mort's piece (insider req'd) was this statement:

"The Titans, picking third in the draft, could be that team -- if Cutler gets past the New Orleans Saints at No. 2."

This is a bit premature.  Maybe he'll wind up as high as 2, sure, but this sure feels like Mort artificially raising that stock of a guy that he likes.  This is literally the first mention I've ever heard of Cutler "maybe getting past NO at 2."  Is Mort just putting that out there to generate heat and/or buzz?  Has every other draft source been wrong so far?  Or has practice at the Senior Bowl changed everything?  Because several Cutler reviews have been mixed, and even those that have been glowing haven't said anything _new_, just that he's as good as advertised.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy.  A lot.  I remember when Bloom was one of the first people anywhere to put him in a draft top 10 like way back in December. 

I just can't tell if Mort is pushing an agenda or reporting...

[Editing for spelling.  B/c I'm caught up in that s***.]
EXACTLY!This is my problem with Mort, 11 months out of the year he openly admits knowing very little about the college game. People will ask him about a certain player or a certain team need and he'll defer, CORRECTLY pointing out that he's too busy following the NFL to focus on the college guys. Then, all of the sudden he's speaking as if Jay "Vanderbilt" Cutler would be PASSED OVER by New Orleans?!?!?!?

If we presume for a second that guys at GBN, NFL Draft Scout, Scouts Inc, Kiper, NFL Draft Countdown pay more attention [i'm not saying they're all better talent evaluators, but that they pay more attention than Mort for 90% of the year [if not more], show me which of those guys had a pre Senior Bowl projection of Cutler as a top 2 draft prospect.

Cutler looks very likely to be a top-10 selection at this point [but many thought Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith would both be top 10 LOCKS last year], but you have to realize that Leinart and Young haven't had their day in the sun yet.

Here is the thing that most frustrates me about the way people speak re: Matt Leinart:

..."He had all that talent at USC"...Guess what folks, in the NFL these guys are going to have talent BETTER than USC. Leinart has commanded an offense that is the closest proxy for the speed and talent he'll be dealing with in the NFL. By making silly statements like "Jay Cutler could do what Leinart did at SC but not vice versa" really shows a MASSIVE naivety toward the requirements of the QB position. MAYBE Cutler could've succeeded...but Leinart DID succeed. He not only played well, he played EXCEPTIONALLY well in the biggest of stages. The entire world was looking at Leinart to fail and he didn't. Anything short of another picture perfect Heisman-worthy season and the critics would've been out in full force. And let's not forget that Leinart stepped into a situation replacing Carson Palmer, not the most enviable of tasks.

Winning when you're supposed to is as important a skill as any the quarterback needs for long-term success.
And to piggyback Jason.......they said the same thing about Carson Palmer. Yeah, he's a tall kid with a good arm but look at all the talent, anyone could succees.And then with Kitna in there at first and Leinart playing well as a sophomore I believe, everyone said see, look at that, anyone can do it there. Palmer isn't that good.

Well, Palmer is that good. He's going to be a great pro........and believe what you see with your own eyes. Leinart is a good QB and will be a solid pro as well. It just happens that USC had two very good Qb's go back to back there. Sure the system is good but any coach will tell you that you have to have the horses to pull the plow.
If Leinart didn't play at USC I doubt there would be anyone on this board comparing him to Palmer. They are very differint QBs. Both had a great deal of success at USC obviously. But as pro QB prospects they bring a totally differint set of tools.
They may have different areas of relative strength but they CERTAINLY don't have totally different tools. Both are...accurate, have great release points, have good height, impeccable footwork, can raise their games in big situations, have command of the huddle, have shown the ability to make adjustments at the line, to name a few.

 
I guess we will find out next fall, but if I'm a GM with a high pick I want a QB that can stand the test of time, and I don't believe Young will able to.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. However, he is one of the greatest college football players I've ever seen, Vince Young that is. And, he's got the physical tools to carry over into the pros. He's not a Doug Flutie who we knew would struggle because of his physical stature.

This guy is the real deal. Now, will he hold up.........I don't know. But I do know that I wouldn't take another QB over him in this draft.

 
Wow...I just re-read Mort's article and am sickened at the hyperbole. Honestly.

First, he spends so much time discussing this unnamed West Coast scout's opinion...who just happens to agree with Mort.

Second, he dismisses other "negatives" being discussed as universally being smoke screens to try to drive Cutler's stock down.

Let's put all the hyperbole away and actually discuss areas where Jay Cutler needs improvement:

Ball positioning -- Cutler carries the ball low [unlike Leinart]

Throws off his back foot -- Inconsistent mechanics including rotation of his hips through his release point, frequently throws off his back foot [Leinart almost never throws off his back foot]
Turnover prone -- Certainly his supporting cast hasn't helped but how about the 25 fumbles in the last two years?
Locks onto primary receiver -- Again, I realize he didn't have great receivers but how can you be SURE he won't have this tendency at the next level [Leinart most certainly goes through progressions with the best of them]
Poor judgment when flushed out of the pocket -- Maybe this is where Mort's comparison to Favre comes into play :D ...but on many occasions Cutler has thrown balls up for grabs or taken a sack trying to make a play when in fact he would've been better off throwing the ball awayThese are the most commonly mentioned flaws in his game I've seen from the various scouting sites. Care to ask how many of these Matt Leinart shares? :unsure:

 
Jason, Giant, GREAT analysis. Cutler is clearly in the top 3 QBs, and I can at least see an argument for slotting him over Young. However, Leinart has one of the best resumes of any QB we've seen coming out of college. It's sad that it's becoming fashionable to knock the guy, because he's proven everything you can at the college level. Is there an argument that Cutler has a higher upside than Leinart? Sure, he's more athletic and has a stronger arm. Is there an argument that Cutler is the better pro prospect overall? Not if you've been paying attention to this longer than one week.

 
Here is the thing that most frustrates me about the way people speak re: Matt Leinart:

..."He had all that talent at USC"...Guess what folks, in the NFL these guys are going to have talent BETTER than USC. Leinart has commanded an offense that is the closest proxy for the speed and talent he'll be dealing with in the NFL. By making silly statements like "Jay Cutler could do what Leinart did at SC but not vice versa" really shows a MASSIVE naivety toward the requirements of the QB position. MAYBE Cutler could've succeeded...but Leinert DID succeed.
Jason, Let me first state that I think both Leinart and Cutler are going to be very good.

That said, I actually think that Cutler's college career better prepares him for the next level than Leinart's. Why?

1) Because Cutler normally did not have a lot of time to throw. Leinart usually had all day to throw. Most NFL QBs dont have much time to throw.

2) Cutler was throwing to receivers who didn't normally have a lot of separation. In the USC games that I saw, their receivers were normally pretty open. No doubt, Leinart was successful in getting them the ball. In the pros, receivers frequently have little separation requiring the ball to go into tight spots.

3) USC definitely ran a pro-style offense. Thats a nice bonus compared to, say Texas. But Vandy wasn't exactly running the wishbone either. They had multiple receiver sets and a reasonably sophisticated passing attack.

4) Cutler faced marginally stiffer competition week in and week out. This has nothing to say negatively about the prime performances that Leinart put on against top defenses like Texas. But top to bottom, most people would say that SEC defenses are more comparable to NFL defenses than PAC10 defenses. (Let the flames begin on this comment).

Again, I think both QBs will be very good. But for me, the experience of having to frequently play under duress, like Cutler did, better prepares him for the NFL.

 
Wow...I just re-read Mort's article and am sickened at the hyperbole. Honestly.

First, he spends so much time discussing this unnamed West Coast scout's opinion...who just happens to agree with Mort.

Second, he dismisses other "negatives" being discussed as universally being smoke screens to try to drive Cutler's stock down.

Let's put all the hyperbole away and actually discuss areas where Jay Cutler needs improvement:

Ball positioning -- Cutler carries the ball low [unlike Leinart]

Throws off his back foot -- Inconsistent mechanics including rotation of his hips through his release point, frequently throws off his back foot [Leinart almost never throws off his back foot]
Turnover prone -- Certainly his supporting cast hasn't helped but how about the 25 fumbles in the last two years?
Locks onto primary receiver -- Again, I realize he didn't have great receivers but how can you be SURE he won't have this tendency at the next level [Leinart most certainly goes through progressions with the best of them]
Poor judgment when flushed out of the pocket -- Maybe this is where Mort's comparison to Favre comes into play :D ...but on many occasions Cutler has thrown balls up for grabs or taken a sack trying to make a play when in fact he would've been better off throwing the ball awayThese are the most commonly mentioned flaws in his game I've seen from the various scouting sites. Care to ask how many of these Matt Leinart shares? :unsure:
Jason, what is the common theme in those flaws? He has NO time to throw the ball. Vandys offensive line is not even mediocre (compared to the rest of the SEC). I have watched a ton of his games, and he just never has had the complimentary O-Line. His WR on the other hand played pretty well, especially this year. I'm not saying when Cutler gets to the NFL things will be different, but to compare his situations and Leinarts is not really fair. I have watched plenty of USC, and lots of times Leinart could bake a cake before he tossed the ball.
 
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Wow...I just re-read Mort's article and am sickened at the hyperbole. Honestly.

First, he spends so much time discussing this unnamed West Coast scout's opinion...who just happens to agree with Mort.

Second, he dismisses other "negatives" being discussed as universally being smoke screens to try to drive Cutler's stock down.

Let's put all the hyperbole away and actually discuss areas where Jay Cutler needs improvement:

Ball positioning -- Cutler carries the ball low [unlike Leinart]

Throws off his back foot -- Inconsistent mechanics including rotation of his hips through his release point, frequently throws off his back foot [Leinart almost never throws off his back foot]
Turnover prone -- Certainly his supporting cast hasn't helped but how about the 25 fumbles in the last two years?
Locks onto primary receiver -- Again, I realize he didn't have great receivers but how can you be SURE he won't have this tendency at the next level [Leinart most certainly goes through progressions with the best of them]
Poor judgment when flushed out of the pocket -- Maybe this is where Mort's comparison to Favre comes into play :D ...but on many occasions Cutler has thrown balls up for grabs or taken a sack trying to make a play when in fact he would've been better off throwing the ball awayThese are the most commonly mentioned flaws in his game I've seen from the various scouting sites. Care to ask how many of these Matt Leinart shares? :unsure:
Jason, what is the common theme in those flaws? He has NO time to throw the ball. Vandys offensive line is not even mediocre (compared to the rest of the SEC). I have watched a ton of his games, and he just never has had the complimentary O-Line. His WR on the other hand played pretty well, especially this year. I'm not saying when Cutler gets to the NFL things will be different, but to compare his situations and Leinarts is not really fair. I have watched plenty of USC, and lots of times Leinart could bake a cake before he tossed the ball.
Sure, I appreciate that and don't mean to suggest that Cutler isn't a solid pro prospect. BUT...there are so many more unknowns about Cutler than Leinart. We KNOW that if Leinart has decent protection, he will be able to manage a pro style offense at a high level. We THINK Cutler has only been held back by his circumstances but there's no way of knowing if that's true or not. All those hits, all those hurries, how can we be sure that protection instinct isn't permanently emblazened in Cutler's mind?
 
Sure, I appreciate that and don't mean to suggest that Cutler isn't a solid pro prospect. BUT...there are so many more unknowns about Cutler than Leinart. We KNOW that if Leinart has decent protection, he will be able to manage a pro style offense at a high level. We THINK Cutler has only been held back by his circumstances but there's no way of knowing if that's true or not. All those hits, all those hurries, how can we be sure that protection instinct isn't permanently emblazened in Cutler's mind?
Bam. There it is. It's so easy to overthink this QB thing sometimes. Not to oversimplify, but lots of people made the same args for Leaf back in the day in terms of gutty leadership on a so-so team, how he'll overcome his tendency to try and do too much which was only a result of being on a team without elite skill talent, etc.Cutler will probably won't be Leaf. He'll probably be very solid. Maybe great. But Leinart is the safest QB to come out in years, and as the first round has proven over that time, it's freaking hard to find even a serviceable guy out there. No one's a sure thing, but I would hand the keys over to Leinart and sleep very soundly at night (and this is a Texas guy talking!). How often can you say that about a rookie? Can you run the '70s Raiders offense with him? Maybe not. But what most NFL offenses ask of you today, to beat a Cover 2/Tampa 2 D by finding your guys in the right spots at the right time, is what Leinart was born to do. Cutler? It's speculative right now.
 
People have been calling Cutler "Boller all over." I think that's too much credit. He's JP Losman all over. Mort (or whoever) saying he's better than Leinart or Young is ridiculous. Yeah yeah Chris, Cutler is a great passer and a wonderful field leader and he was the crux of the Dores team. All of this fails to realize that, discounting Carson Palmer, Leinart and Young are the best performing QBs in college since Peyton Manning....

...actually, even better than those guys.
The voice of reason
 
The only reason Leinert is not widely accepted on these boards as the best QB coming out of college is 2 fold IMO.1. USC hatred pain and simple. Almost Miami Hurricanes hatred level from many on here.2. It was the Bush/White show this year. Whit had 20+ TD? Bush wins the Heiman sharing the same backfield as this guy? Leinert was simply not needed as often however most of the time he came thru and did what was needed to win the game. Notre Dame comes to mind.

 
The only reason Leinert is not widely accepted on these boards as the best QB coming out of college is 2 fold IMO.

1. USC hatred pain and simple. Almost Miami Hurricanes hatred level from many on here.

2. It was the Bush/White show this year. Whit had 20+ TD? Bush wins the Heiman sharing the same backfield as this guy? Leinert was simply not needed as often however most of the time he came thru and did what was needed to win the game. Notre Dame comes to mind.
3. The "unknown" will always appeal to many people more than the proven commodity. Leinart, while also a prospect, has been "with us" longer than the "new kid on the block". People have gotten to the point with Leinart (like Peyton before the draft) that they're no longer impressed with his positives and look to his negatives. Meanwhile, the new kid has the new toys we haven't seen before and we begin to think he's "cooler". This happens every year with the rookie crop, and occasionally when evaluating rookies like Leinart and Cutler.I like Cutler's potential, but will not take him over Leinart (unless Leinart is in Houston and Cutler in Oakland).

 
Sure, I appreciate that and don't mean to suggest that Cutler isn't a solid pro prospect. BUT...there are so many more unknowns about Cutler than Leinart. We KNOW that if Leinart has decent protection, he will be able to manage a pro style offense at a high level. We THINK Cutler has only been held back by his circumstances but there's no way of knowing if that's true or not. All those hits, all those hurries, how can we be sure that protection instinct isn't permanently emblazened in Cutler's mind?
Jason, I think this paragraph could be turned around and still present a reaonably defendable position.....

Sure, I appreciate that and don't mean to suggest that Leinart isn't a solid pro prospect. BUT...there are so many more unknowns about Leinart than Cutler. We KNOW that if Cutlar doesnt have decent protection, he will be able to manage a pro style offense at a high level. We THINK Leinart can be successful when facing those circumstances but there's no way of knowing if that's true or not. All those open receivers, all that time to throw, how can we be sure that a protection instinct can be developed in Leinart's mind?

Again, I think both QBs will be good. But for the sake of balancing out the arguments being posited here, its reasonable to consider differing opinions....

 
All this Cutler hype is seriously diminishing Miami's chances of getting him at #16.

:rant:
If I was a Miami fan, and Maimi somehow got Cutler ... I would crap my pants with joy. :excited: I doubt that Cutler breaks the top 10.

 
Wow...I just re-read Mort's article and am sickened at the hyperbole. Honestly.

First, he spends so much time discussing this unnamed West Coast scout's opinion...who just happens to agree with Mort.

Second, he dismisses other "negatives" being discussed as universally being smoke screens to try to drive Cutler's stock down.

Let's put all the hyperbole away and actually discuss areas where Jay Cutler needs improvement:

Ball positioning -- Cutler carries the ball low [unlike Leinart]

Throws off his back foot -- Inconsistent mechanics including rotation of his hips through his release point, frequently throws off his back foot [Leinart almost never throws off his back foot]
Turnover prone -- Certainly his supporting cast hasn't helped but how about the 25 fumbles in the last two years?
Locks onto primary receiver -- Again, I realize he didn't have great receivers but how can you be SURE he won't have this tendency at the next level [Leinart most certainly goes through progressions with the best of them]
Poor judgment when flushed out of the pocket -- Maybe this is where Mort's comparison to Favre comes into play :D ...but on many occasions Cutler has thrown balls up for grabs or taken a sack trying to make a play when in fact he would've been better off throwing the ball awayThese are the most commonly mentioned flaws in his game I've seen from the various scouting sites. Care to ask how many of these Matt Leinart shares? :unsure:
:hey: Good thread, btw. Fun stuff.

Bloom, I have been following both of them very carefully all season, not for one week.

MOP, I am a huge Pac 10 fan, and really wanted to see Leinart beat Texas. I like Matt personally. Trojan players voted him their most humble teammate. There is no hatred here. Just a decade+ of watching many a Pac 10 QB, get hyped and fail. Long live Palmer and God bless Plummer and Bledsoe. Despite my concerns, I sincerely (I mean sincerely) hope Leinart does very well.

Ball positioning low unlike Leinart. False. In the pocket Cutler and Leinart hold the ball identically, and they both have the bad habit of escaping the pocket with the ball in one hand (not tucked) and low.

Throws off his back foot unlike Leinart who almost never does. Had to chuckle at this one. Cutler throws off his back foot when he has to because there's no room to step up and it's now or sack. Very common in the NFL. Leinart sails the ball so much because he throws off his back foot all the time even when he has all kinds of room to step up. I refer you to games at Oregon at ASU and especially (because most saw it) against UCLA. Not once, not twice, but six times in the first half he sailed the ball very high (out of bounds 4 times) and uncatchable, missing wide open receivers while under no pressure whatsoever, four times with no defensive players even close. In every case he threw off his backfoot (and the commentators discussed it as replays displayed it). That game was no an aberration though a bit of an exaggeration of this serious concern in Leinart's game. I doubt Cutler ever had a game where he missed that many wide open receivers in the first half by sailing the ball high from his backfoot. It certainly wasn't an issue in the games I watched (3).

Turnover prone. A definite concern that goes beyond fumbling. I could argue the intense pressure is to blame, but I hate turnovers and Cutler is a gunslinger and a risk taker. I suppose he had to be, and at times he looked spectacular in the role, but he'll make brutal mistakes if this isn't corrected. He needs time with the clipboard and coaching (so do all rookie QBs). Leinart is smart and cautious with the ball, but he could afford to be. To an extent he'll lose that luxury unless he is handled like Ben and Orton were.

Locks on to primary receiver. Made me chuckle again. He only had one decent receiver who really wasn't decent. Leinart had four future NFL players in the pattern and five future NFL lineman blocking. Of course, he had time to go through progressions. He faced Pac 10 defenses, and Cutler faced SEC Ds. However, to say Leinart made great decisions and didn't lock onto Jarrett this year would be utterly false. Time after time he forced passes to Jarrett when other players were wide open. Leinart also has the bad habit of throwing to the wide open receiver who is nearest the line of scrimmage-- a habit or luxury that will hurt him in the NFL. He won't have four open options like he did much of this year. On the other hand Cutler improvised constantly on practically every series and he's adept at making split second reads Leinart has little experience with. Leinart is already an ace at the line of scrimmage before the snap, however. His reactions after the snap are going to have to quicken.

Poor judgment when flushed out of the pocket. Gunlslinger. Not sure how fair this assessment is considering all the great plays he makes when flushed. If you can get your hands on the Kentucky game, you will be more impressed with him out of the pocket than worried about his judgment. He really didn't have much to work with, was playing from behind, trying to win games against much better all-around teams. A bit of winging it was called for, but this could be a problem if he's developed a heroic self-image. I won't question Leinart's judgment beyond the above comments. He is cautious. I think that's smart and will benefit him as he learns to cope with NFL speed and coverage. Two things Cutler has experienced much more realistically than Leinart.

Here's some flaws in Leinart's game that should be discussed.

Cannot set up and throw on the run.

Needs a big pocket to step up and get velocity on the ball.

Does not have an NFL 15 yard out in his arsenal. Period.

Underthrows the long ball.

Sails passes to the sidelines.

Struggles to make throws into a tight spaces and briefly opened windows.

Waits way too long for plays to develop.

Loves to party. :D

 
A couple of random reactions to points raised:You may disagree with Mort, unfair to state that he does not have insight into the NFL draft by late January. That's different than in November. Mort has tons of inside contacts within the NFL. His job is to live and breath the NFL. Once the NFL season concludes a big part of his job is cover, analyze what the future portends for the 32 NFL teams. The guy does know football very well. If I got paid what Mort does to cover the NFL 24/7 I think that I could be pretty smart and have pretty good NFL insight into the elite college players coming into this year's draft even if I only saw a handful of college games during the year. Remember he has contacts that dwarf any poster on the FBG message board. I haven't seen much of Cutler, I have seen quite a bit of Young and Leinart and I am a USC fan.I do think that Leinart's one weakness is arm strength and the deep ball.Intrigued by what I've read about Cutler, would like to see the JETS take him.

 
not to be a stick in the mud, but I think it was Mortenson, not Jaws.
It was Mortenson. Interesting comparison to Brett Favre.
For the past couple of years I've heard this comparision to Favre and I got to tell you I'm sick of it. First was Grossman, than Ramsey, then Losman. I'm sick of it. there is only one BRETT FAVRE. Please stop the comparisions. This kid might be good but to say he's LIKE FAVRE.... I think not. I'll still stick with Leinart being the best QB out of this class. I don't understand how last year all the experts were touting him as a no doubt #1 pick overall. He goes back to school, has a great year and wins alot of games. He gets his team back to the championship game has a good game (great in the second half) and all of a sudden his stock drops. Can someone explain this to me.
:goodposting: And he missed the three pete, by 10 inches
I think you mean TWO PETE. USC only won one National Championship. They didn't win this year (Texas did). They won last year. And two years ago LSU won the crystal football. So if you want to know the last three national champions:Texas

USC

LSU

I don't see any chance for a three pete there. Since the BCS has started, the BCS champion IS the champion.

Sorry USC. only 1 championship. However, you had a good team and won a lot of games.

 
Bloom, I have been following both of them very carefully all season, not for one week.
so based on what you've seen, who is higher on your board? that's the bottom line. Would you take Cutler over Leinart at #2?
 
I like Cutler's potential, but will not take him over Leinart (unless Leinart is in Houston and Cutler in Oakland).
What if Leinart is in New Orleans, as expected, and Cutler is in a) Detroit, b)Arizona, or c) Miami? I think those are the most likely scenarios at this point. For fantasy purposes, I prefer Cutler in AZ, but the other two are very tough.

 
Sure, I appreciate that and don't mean to suggest that Cutler isn't a solid pro prospect. BUT...there are so many more unknowns about Cutler than Leinart. We KNOW that if Leinart has decent protection, he will be able to manage a pro style offense at a high level. We THINK Cutler has only been held back by his circumstances but there's no way of knowing if that's true or not. All those hits, all those hurries, how can we be sure that protection instinct isn't permanently emblazened in Cutler's mind?
Jason, I think this paragraph could be turned around and still present a reaonably defendable position.....

Sure, I appreciate that and don't mean to suggest that Leinart isn't a solid pro prospect. BUT...there are so many more unknowns about Leinart than Cutler. We KNOW that if Cutlar doesnt have decent protection, he will be able to manage a pro style offense at a high level. We THINK Leinart can be successful when facing those circumstances but there's no way of knowing if that's true or not. All those open receivers, all that time to throw, how can we be sure that a protection instinct can be developed in Leinart's mind?

Again, I think both QBs will be good. But for the sake of balancing out the arguments being posited here, its reasonable to consider differing opinions....
Wow...I just re-read Mort's article and am sickened at the hyperbole. Honestly.

First, he spends so much time discussing this unnamed West Coast scout's opinion...who just happens to agree with Mort.

Second, he dismisses other "negatives" being discussed as universally being smoke screens to try to drive Cutler's stock down.

Let's put all the hyperbole away and actually discuss areas where Jay Cutler needs improvement:

Ball positioning -- Cutler carries the ball low [unlike Leinart]

Throws off his back foot -- Inconsistent mechanics including rotation of his hips through his release point, frequently throws off his back foot [Leinart almost never throws off his back foot]
Turnover prone -- Certainly his supporting cast hasn't helped but how about the 25 fumbles in the last two years?
Locks onto primary receiver -- Again, I realize he didn't have great receivers but how can you be SURE he won't have this tendency at the next level [Leinart most certainly goes through progressions with the best of them]
Poor judgment when flushed out of the pocket -- Maybe this is where Mort's comparison to Favre comes into play :D ...but on many occasions Cutler has thrown balls up for grabs or taken a sack trying to make a play when in fact he would've been better off throwing the ball awayThese are the most commonly mentioned flaws in his game I've seen from the various scouting sites. Care to ask how many of these Matt Leinart shares? :unsure:
:hey: Good thread, btw. Fun stuff.

Bloom, I have been following both of them very carefully all season, not for one week.

MOP, I am a huge Pac 10 fan, and really wanted to see Leinart beat Texas. I like Matt personally. Trojan players voted him their most humble teammate. There is no hatred here. Just a decade+ of watching many a Pac 10 QB, get hyped and fail. Long live Palmer and God bless Plummer and Bledsoe. Despite my concerns, I sincerely (I mean sincerely) hope Leinart does very well.

Ball positioning low unlike Leinart. False. In the pocket Cutler and Leinart hold the ball identically, and they both have the bad habit of escaping the pocket with the ball in one hand (not tucked) and low.

Throws off his back foot unlike Leinart who almost never does. Had to chuckle at this one. Cutler throws off his back foot when he has to because there's no room to step up and it's now or sack. Very common in the NFL. Leinart sails the ball so much because he throws off his back foot all the time even when he has all kinds of room to step up. I refer you to games at Oregon at ASU and especially (because most saw it) against UCLA. Not once, not twice, but six times in the first half he sailed the ball very high (out of bounds 4 times) and uncatchable, missing wide open receivers while under no pressure whatsoever, four times with no defensive players even close. In every case he threw off his backfoot (and the commentators discussed it as replays displayed it). That game was no an aberration though a bit of an exaggeration of this serious concern in Leinart's game. I doubt Cutler ever had a game where he missed that many wide open receivers in the first half by sailing the ball high from his backfoot. It certainly wasn't an issue in the games I watched (3).

Turnover prone. A definite concern that goes beyond fumbling. I could argue the intense pressure is to blame, but I hate turnovers and Cutler is a gunslinger and a risk taker. I suppose he had to be, and at times he looked spectacular in the role, but he'll make brutal mistakes if this isn't corrected. He needs time with the clipboard and coaching (so do all rookie QBs). Leinart is smart and cautious with the ball, but he could afford to be. To an extent he'll lose that luxury unless he is handled like Ben and Orton were.

Locks on to primary receiver. Made me chuckle again. He only had one decent receiver who really wasn't decent. Leinart had four future NFL players in the pattern and five future NFL lineman blocking. Of course, he had time to go through progressions. He faced Pac 10 defenses, and Cutler faced SEC Ds. However, to say Leinart made great decisions and didn't lock onto Jarrett this year would be utterly false. Time after time he forced passes to Jarrett when other players were wide open. Leinart also has the bad habit of throwing to the wide open receiver who is nearest the line of scrimmage-- a habit or luxury that will hurt him in the NFL. He won't have four open options like he did much of this year. On the other hand Cutler improvised constantly on practically every series and he's adept at making split second reads Leinart has little experience with. Leinart is already an ace at the line of scrimmage before the snap, however. His reactions after the snap are going to have to quicken.

Poor judgment when flushed out of the pocket. Gunlslinger. Not sure how fair this assessment is considering all the great plays he makes when flushed. If you can get your hands on the Kentucky game, you will be more impressed with him out of the pocket than worried about his judgment. He really didn't have much to work with, was playing from behind, trying to win games against much better all-around teams. A bit of winging it was called for, but this could be a problem if he's developed a heroic self-image. I won't question Leinart's judgment beyond the above comments. He is cautious. I think that's smart and will benefit him as he learns to cope with NFL speed and coverage. Two things Cutler has experienced much more realistically than Leinart.

Here's some flaws in Leinart's game that should be discussed.

Cannot set up and throw on the run.

Needs a big pocket to step up and get velocity on the ball.

Does not have an NFL 15 yard out in his arsenal. Period.

Underthrows the long ball.

Sails passes to the sidelines.

Struggles to make throws into a tight spaces and briefly opened windows.

Waits way too long for plays to develop.

Loves to party. :D
Hey Chaos,Just to be clear, these aren't MY list of Cutler's flaws...but those of NFL Draft Scout, who no disrespect to you, I'm going to lean toward when I don't have a strong opinion of a player in my own right.

 
Bloom, I have been following both of them very carefully all season, not for one week. 
so based on what you've seen, who is higher on your board? that's the bottom line. Would you take Cutler over Leinart at #2?
That's like a fantasy football drafting question to me. Leinart has very high value, but lower a VBD # based on my projections. :excited: Seriously, I would pass on Leinart as high as he is projected. I would seek a team who loves him and get as much value as I could. Maybe Cutler and a draft pick? I don't want a QB who cannot make a very important throw. It is a valid concern.

If I couldn't do that (while heavily shopping Leinart and Young), I would pass on Leinart get real serious about analyzing Young and take the best available player (which I can be persuaded is Young).

I do not think Leinart is going to be a star. There's a ton more to my thinking than what I have shared here. At best I see a Drew Bledsoe sort of career without the rocket launcher.

What I'm torn on is Young vs. Cutler. I would love to have either to develop. The gambler in me takes Young and never looks back. The conservative in me would take Cutler and pray he's what I think he is.

If the choice is simply Leinart or Cutler, my answer is the same as Mort's and Maycock's-- Cutler. I would add that Maycock has been very good with many of his controversial calls. Aaron Rodgers falling, Demarcus Ware climbing and a few others. He's no dummy and like me, he's just trying to get this right. I am not following his lead. I picked Cutler before he and Mort did.

This may seem foolish, but something I look for when playing amateur scout is great playmaking. I feel like after watching football for 30 years, it's the guys who make awesome plays regardless of who they make them for who end up being NFL stars. Piling up stats with longterm consistency does not impress me nearly as much, and something like 15 out of 25 of the ncaa's all-time leading QBs pretty much sucked. Leinart has very few "great plays" on his resume (his teammates sure do though). Cutler and Young probably triple Leinart's career "great plays" in just this season alone. Of course we may not agree on what constitutes a great play.

 
Hey Chaos,

Just to be clear, these aren't MY list of Cutler's flaws...but those of NFL Draft Scout, who no disrespect to you, I'm going to lean toward when I don't have a strong opinion of a player in my own right.
Clear as a bell. I'm pretty comfortable playing contrarian on this one, and a little amused by all the new Cutler supporters. I was very possibly ahead of the curve on a road that's going straight off a cliff. :D
 

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