David Ortiz -- ordinary hitter in Minnesota (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

Check out Ortiz's stats from the 5 years in which he played at least 125 games. I vividly remember him playing with the Twins. He was a better-than-decent hitter, but nobody that opposing pitching coaches would lose sleep over. If you compare the Metrodome to Fenway park, I think most people would agree that it's more difficult for a left-handed hitter to produce power numbers at Fenway than hitting off the baggie in Minnesota. Before you wonder if I'm accusing him of getting Barry Bonds-esque chemical help, I'm not. He's just a naturally BIG man. Always was, even as a younger player with the Twins. But I don't ever remember another player going from average hitter to absolutely devastating hitter in such a short period of time, and I'm wondering what the reasons are. Can you attribute it mainly to having Manny protect him? Educate me.

Year  Tm   G   AB    H   HR RBI  BB   BA    OBP   SLG +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+ 2000 MIN 130  415  117  10   63  57  .282  .364  .446   2002 MIN 125  412  112  20   75  43  .272  .339  .500   2003 BOS 128  448  129  31  101  58  .288  .369  .592   2004 BOS 150  582  175  41  139  75  .301  .380  .603   2005 BOS 159  601  180  47  148 102  .300  .397  .604  +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+

As you can see, his HRs, RBI and slugging percentage have risen exponentially year after year, and it's more than just a simple case of extrapolating his numbers to correlate with his increased number of at-bats. Ortiz is clearly the 2nd-best hitter in baseball right now, behind Pujols, and that's a statement which would have been unthinkable four or five years ago.

 

[Ghost Rider]

'Roids, perhaps?

 

[Capella]

Well, he did hit 30 homers and drove in 110 down in AAA in '99 -- so it wasn't like he never had power before.

Plus, he had 52 extra-base hits in '02, in only 125 games. 35 xtras in only 89 games in '01. So the signs of power have always been there, he was pretty green back then. Add in Manny, and other guys like Damon hitting around him and you have something.

The Twins just gave up on him too fast. Must've been because they had to rush Michael Resotovich and Michael Cuddyer up.

 

[Raider Nation]

The Twins just gave up on him too fast. Must've been because they had to rush Michael Resotovich and Michael Cuddyer up.

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In your opinion, does he still blossom into the hitter he has become if he stayed in Minnesota without Manny hitting behind him?Part II of the question is, could the Twinks have financially afforded to keep him if the answer to the first question is "yes"....?

 

[Capella]

The Twins just gave up on him too fast. Must've been because they had to rush Michael Resotovich and Michael Cuddyer up.

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In your opinion, does he still blossom into the hitter he has become if he stayed in Minnesota without Manny hitting behind him?Part II of the question is, could the Twinks have financially afforded to keep him if the answer to the first question is "yes"....?

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The difference between having Manny hit behind you and the likes of Jacque Jones probably can't be measured. Doubt he would be as good as he is now, but like I said, he was showing big-time power potential.The Twinks could have afforded to keep him, but I doubt that cheapskate owner would have.

 

[Corporation]

I don't know, but I do know I had him in my keeper league in 2003 and traded him in the offseason because I thought his first BoSox season was a fluke (for Jeff Kent no less). That still hurts to this day.

 

[Raider Nation]

The Twins just gave up on him too fast. Must've been because they had to rush Michael Resotovich and Michael Cuddyer up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In your opinion, does he still blossom into the hitter he has become if he stayed in Minnesota without Manny hitting behind him?Part II of the question is, could the Twinks have financially afforded to keep him if the answer to the first question is "yes"....?

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The difference between having Manny hit behind you and the likes of Jacque Jones probably can't be measured. Doubt he would be as good as he is now, but like I said, he was showing big-time power potential.The Twinks could have afforded to keep him, but I doubt that cheapskate owner would have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks.He is so dialed in right now, it's ridiculous. Everything he hits -- even his outs -- are TATTOOED! How sick would his numbers be if he played with Helton in Colorado...

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

Bill James was interviewed in last month's Esquire and Ortiz's name came up.

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Esquire/2006.../1261088?page=2

The Red Sox are waiting for one of the four reports—some of which have stretched to two hundred pages—he's contracted to write for them each year, with rankings of free agents and minor league talent and prospective objects of affection. He refuses to reveal the contents of his latest batch of recommendations, but one of his earliest studies for them, following the 2002 season, suggested that Boston consider either David Ortiz or Brad Fullmer, who, by his calculations, were virtually identical: aggressive pull hitters who picked up a lot of doubles and a few home runs and were liabilities in the field. For reasons James has never been privy to, the front office decided to nab Ortiz, perhaps because Fullmer once fractured a coach's cheekbone with his bat. Backslaps all 'round, even though James admits that he "couldn't see much of anything between them. Sometimes, all it comes down to is luck."

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Ortiz has also said that the Twins discouraged him from swinging from his heels like he does now. His exact words were "You want me to hit like a little #####, I will."

 

[Raider Nation]

Ortiz has also said that the Twins discouraged him from swinging from his heels like he does now. His exact words were "You want me to hit like a little #####, I will."

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Tom Kelly managed him in 2000 & 2001.Ron Gardenhire managed him in 2002.

I wonder which manager that directive came from.

 

[Giant Wooden Badger]

Ortiz has also said that the Twins discouraged him from swinging from his heels like he does now. His exact words were "You want me to hit like a little #####, I will."

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Tom Kelly managed him in 2000 & 2001.Ron Gardenhire managed him in 2002.

I wonder which manager that directive came from.

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Dunno. He wasn't specific. I imagine it was just a team philosophy at the time.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Ortiz has always looked like Ortiz in Minny, at least against the Yankees. I'm sure people roll their eyes at the story of Steinbrenner telling Cashman to sign him that year he was released, but Ortiz was smoking them back in Minny.

 

[Lumpasaur]

I remember him missing some time due to injury while he was in Minnesota.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Ortiz has also said that the Twins discouraged him from swinging from his heels like he does now. His exact words were "You want me to hit like a little #####, I will."

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Tom Kelly managed him in 2000 & 2001.Ron Gardenhire managed him in 2002.

I wonder which manager that directive came from.

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The Twins wanted him to play "Small Ball". Actually it was Tom Kelly that wanted him to play small ball. F*** Tom Kelly. Sure he won the series in '87 and '91 and everybody thinks he was an awesome manager but I say B***feces! He was lucky to have 8 games at the 'Dome in those years. He was 8-0 at home and 0-6 on the road. If he was so great he should have won at least one game on the road. I was never a fan of Tom Kelly, I HATE Ron Gardenhire, and Terry Ryan for giving up on him for...Matthew LeCroy.Play that small ball Twins. Right intop the F****** crapper.

 

[joker]

Well, he did hit 30 homers and drove in 110 down in AAA in '99 -- so it wasn't like he never had power before.

Plus, he had 52 extra-base hits in '02, in only 125 games. 35 xtras in only 89 games in '01. So the signs of power have always been there, he was pretty green back then. Add in Manny, and other guys like Damon hitting around him and you have something.

The Twins just gave up on him too fast. Must've been because they had to rush Michael Resotovich and Michael Cuddyer up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bad decision by the Twins + nice opportunity with the Sox = Superstar.

The stench from that decision isn't going to dissipate anytime soon - I still hear Twins fans grumble over it (heard it about an hour ago, as a matter of fact)...

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Nothing better then a .181 hitter in his ONE season of major league baseball telling someone to play small ball.

 

[Daywalker]

Was the guy supposed to be an stud right out of the gate? The more playing time he got the better he got. It's not like he was Luis Gonzales or Brady Anderson who all the sudden got huge power late in their career.

Ortiz had 18 hrs in 89 games in 2001 when he was 25. He was one of my sleepers in 2002 but injuries derailed him. Then Minn. strangely gave up on him. I think Boston signed him for like 3mill/year. I remember thinking they got him unusually cheap.

 

[Michael Brown]

First, I don't think Ortiz is a steroid guy. I mean I suppose anything's possible, but he runs a very prominent campaign in the Dominican Republic to ensure kids don't go that route. It would be like when Jeff was the anti-drug guy on Saved By the Bell and then at the party he was the one trying to get everyone to try pot.

Anyway, I always thought Ortiz was going to come around when he was in Minny, but gave up on him one season too soon. I drafted him in 2000, 2001, and 2002 and left him on my FA wire a couple weeks too long in 2003.

I also don't want to hear anything about Steinbrenner telling Cashman he should go out and sign him after 2002. First off, the Yankees already had Giambi recently signed and Nick Johnson was their supposed 1B of the future. Keeping in mind what Ortiz was at the time, there was ZERO reason to go out and sign him. Second, Steinbrenner tells Cashman every off-season that he wants EVERY guy. That way, when some of them go on to perform great, he can sit there and say "I told you to sign (insert player here)!!!" What doesn't get mentioned are the couple dozen guys who end up sucking for the next 3-4 years that he also wanted but was talked out of.

I think Ortiz is just a classic case of a player finding a groove in the right spot at the right time in his career. He's certainly not the first guy to really blossom later on -- just more noticeable because of how insanely great he is. My question is: with 5 more years like the previous 3, can he make a HOF push? Say 400 HR, lifetime .300 BA, countless huge hits in huge spots, but all of it coming from the DH spot?

 

[ThisGuy]

Hitters usually hit their stride around age 27 or so.

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

This happened to Kent Dorfman as well.

As soon as he left Animal House guy got on a roll.

 

[Serenity Now]

On the game last night, the announcers said that the Yankees picked up Myers just to deal with Ortiz, since they have to face him 19 times this year. So much for that plan.

 

[Alias]

I heard he had a problem with the inside ball, he got some help and it shows.

 

[TLEF316]

First, I don't think Ortiz is a steroid guy. I mean I suppose anything's possible, but he runs a very prominent campaign in the Dominican Republic to ensure kids don't go that route. It would be like when Jeff was the anti-drug guy on Saved By the Bell and then at the party he was the one trying to get everyone to try pot.

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Jeff was the colleg student who was manager of The Max and stole Kelly from Zach. The Anti drug guy was Johnny Dakota

 

[guru_007]

Count me in the Twins gave up too fast bandwagon. Dude was never given an opportunity to hit full time. He almost always sat against lefties and was thought to never be able to hit them. Plus, this was a Twins team which thought they were LOADED with young talent (Restovich, Cuddyer, Morneau, etc...). None of these guys could really get into a groove playing 4-5 days per week.

Year 1 with the Sox he wasn't really playing full time either. The Red Sox didn't think he could hit lefties either, and they had a ton of right handed bats (Millar, Kapler, Manny, etc...). But as the season progressed, and he was given opportunity, well he proved he could hit just about anyone. It's the way it goes sometimes.

 

[bialczabub]

Hitters usually hit their stride around age 27 or so.

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[David Yudkin]

IIRC, Ortiz had a combination of nagging shoulder and knee/leg injuries early in his career with Minnesota. The combination limited his ability to drive the ball. I also think he was used as a platoon and the concern was that he did not hit lefties very well. The Twins do seem to have given up on him a bit prematurely.

 

[Sammy3469]

I heard he had a problem with the inside ball, he got some help and it shows.

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He had huge holes in his swing (which reading some of the Minny stuff sounds like it came from Minny coaching since they didn't want him opening up). Whoever the Red Sox hitting coach is, has gotten him to rotate his hips and feet on inside pitches so he won't get jammed. He also stays in better against lefties now.

He didn't look like he was the least bit confused by Myers last night.

 

[Workhorse]

A lot of credit has to be given to the Sox hitting coach, Ron Jackson. Pappa Jack really helped Ortiz close the holes in his swing and taught him to be both patient (on fishing for breaking balls) and aggressive (especially on down and in pitches).

 

[Capella]

The Twins just gave up on him too fast. Must've been because they had to rush Michael Resotovich and Michael Cuddyer up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In your opinion, does he still blossom into the hitter he has become if he stayed in Minnesota without Manny hitting behind him?Part II of the question is, could the Twinks have financially afforded to keep him if the answer to the first question is "yes"....?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The difference between having Manny hit behind you and the likes of Jacque Jones probably can't be measured. Doubt he would be as good as he is now, but like I said, he was showing big-time power potential.The Twinks could have afforded to keep him, but I doubt that cheapskate owner would have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks.He is so dialed in right now, it's ridiculous. Everything he hits -- even his outs -- are TATTOOED! How sick would his numbers be if he played with Helton in Colorado...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was at the game Sunday. He launched one about 15 rows over my head -- and I was sitting about 10 rows in.Dude is a monster.

 

[roadeyes]

I heard he had a problem with the inside ball, he got some help and it shows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He had huge holes in his swing (which reading some of the Minny stuff sounds like it came from Minny coaching since they didn't want him opening up). Whoever the Red Sox hitting coach is, has gotten him to rotate his hips and feet on inside pitches so he won't get jammed. He also stays in better against lefties now.

He didn't look like he was the least bit confused by Myers last night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rest of the league must be slow to adjust their scouting reports. Many still try to go down and in on him. I see a pitch like that and I jump out of my seat a little before Ortiz even starts his swing.I think his growth has been a result of simple maturity and natural development (the 27 year old thing) and some smart coaching. When Ortiz was brought over to Boston, he was sharing time with Giambi. Jeremy Giambi. Not to absolve Minnesota, but it's not like Ortiz was an immediate sensation in Boston either. And I know it helps having Manny behind him now, but there have been stretches of time when Manny was in the 3 hole.

But Papi's discipline, eye, and ability to turn on a lefty has improved by a staggering amount in a few short years.

 

[TLEF316]

he's an amazing hitter. No question about it. The twins offensive philosophy killed him. Let bashers bash. dont make them into slap hitters

 

[[icon]]

I heard he had a problem with the inside ball, he got some help and it shows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He had huge holes in his swing (which reading some of the Minny stuff sounds like it came from Minny coaching since they didn't want him opening up). Whoever the Red Sox hitting coach is, has gotten him to rotate his hips and feet on inside pitches so he won't get jammed. He also stays in better against lefties now.

He didn't look like he was the least bit confused by Myers last night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rest of the league must be slow to adjust their scouting reports. Many still try to go down and in on him. I see a pitch like that and I jump out of my seat a little before Ortiz even starts his swing.I think his growth has been a result of simple maturity and natural development (the 27 year old thing) and some smart coaching. When Ortiz was brought over to Boston, he was sharing time with Giambi. Jeremy Giambi. Not to absolve Minnesota, but it's not like Ortiz was an immediate sensation in Boston either. And I know it helps having Manny behind him now, but there have been stretches of time when Manny was in the 3 hole.

But Papi's discipline, eye, and ability to turn on a lefty has improved by a staggering amount in a few short years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

same here! as soon as he started his swing last night I was jumping up out of my barstool. The pitch about 2 pitches before that where he fouled it back (is was a little further out toward the center) I turned to my buddy and said "that was about 1/4 of an inch from being a souvenir. When he jacked it, I laughed and said "there's the souvenir"

to having this guy locked up for another half decade.

 

[Wheelhouse]

I remember him missing some time due to injury while he was in Minnesota.

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He did have a hand injury that hampered him in the 2001 season, IIRC. To answer your question - why was Ortiz better with the Red Sox than the Twins?Baseball players, especially hitters don't quite reach their full potential until 3-4 seasons in. Ortiz was always projected to be a good hitter, it just took him time to learn the game. Learn what pitches to hit, what pitches to stay away from, his mechanics, etc.

There are players every year that reach this point - In fact many baseball following people tend to believe a player's greatest potential is reached between the age of 26, 27, and 28 years old.

Examples of those whose careers are on the upswing after not quite fullfilling expectations in the early going..

1. Alexis Rios - TOR

2. Chad Tracy - ARI

3. Morgan Ensberg (last year)

4. Ryan Freel - CIN

5. Travis Hafner CLE (last year)

6. Ben Broussard CLE (this year)

7. Brian Roberts BAL (last year)

8. Carlos Guillen - DET was a slow starter

9. Joe Crede - CWS

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Ortiz broke his wrist twice in MN. Not sure if it was the same wrist both times or not.

Guy killed the ball when he played, but lacked consistency. Likely due to coaching/experience like others have mentioned.

The Twins decided to keep the fan-favorite Doug Mientkiewicz (ugh) instead of the oft-injured Ortiz. Bad move. If I remember correctly they each could have been had for 2yr/3mil contracts, and Doug got it.

 

[bialczabub]

Ortiz also has about .050 pointsd more on his Fenway OBP than on the road over the past three seasons.

Some players are made to hit in that park. Not that Ortiz doesn't hit well elsewhere.

 

[The Royal Jack]

Tom Kelly -the same guy who had Santana stuck in the pen for years.