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***David Wilson Bandwagon*** (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Jeff Pasquino
- Start date
NFL teams publish these things that you may not have heard of yet called a "depth chart." What it is, is a list of the starters and their backup in order of secession (look that one up in a dictionary, if you would).
According to the "depth chart" published by the NY Giants, Da'rel Scott is listed as the second behind David Wilson (those in the know call this "second string")
This typically means that if Wilson were to fail, Da'rel Scott would be in line for some touches. and hence fantasy relevance.
HTH
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
tiki barber fumbled 53 X in a decade long NFL career...
by year... 3, 1, 5, 9, 8, 9, 9, 5, 1, 3... eerily, spookily close to being a statistical palindrome in its symmetry...
lower frequency corresponds with lesser usage in first three years, and coaching up in twilight years...
incidentally, coughlin overlapped with barber last three years, 2004-2006...
i don't recall coughlin being as much of hard case with barber (?), but wilson not an established vet like barber...
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BarbTi00.htm
by year... 3, 1, 5, 9, 8, 9, 9, 5, 1, 3... eerily, spookily close to being a statistical palindrome in its symmetry...
lower frequency corresponds with lesser usage in first three years, and coaching up in twilight years...
incidentally, coughlin overlapped with barber last three years, 2004-2006...
i don't recall coughlin being as much of hard case with barber (?), but wilson not an established vet like barber...
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BarbTi00.htm
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mphtrilogy
Footballguy
this is it, line in the sand time for wilson, you cannot get the stars more aligned for a second chance.... (or third)
B-Deep
Footballguy
my prediction for the next game
Giants fall behind quickly, Wilson is in and does not fumble but plays a very small part in the game as the g-men are in catch up mode and next week the debate is "did the giants give up on the run game too early because they do not trust wilson"
Giants fall behind quickly, Wilson is in and does not fumble but plays a very small part in the game as the g-men are in catch up mode and next week the debate is "did the giants give up on the run game too early because they do not trust wilson"
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Khy
Footballguy
Hahahahahaha... wow. First of all you could backup with the ridiculous amount of hostility there champ. It's unnecessary and unwarranted.
Second, a players spot on the depth chart =/= fantasy relevance. If you really think that's how things work then you must have a tough time grabbing good guys off the WW during the season. The simple fact is Da'rel is a nobody, nothing, nadda... he's a late round talent that will live out his career mostly as a backup and special teamer. He has no real talent past speed. I'll repeat this again for you... Da'rel Scott was not. going. to. be. fantasy. relevant. Done. The Giants coaching staff have literally expressed no trust in him nor Cox as a backup to David Wilson. Depth chart in this situation means nothing. Scott was a 3rd string RB until Brown went down in Week 3 of the preseason and never would have seen the field if Brown had stayed healthy. When Brown went down the Giants tried out a bunch of veterans because they don't want Scott or Cox as the backup RB and waited until this week to sign one (Brandon Jacobs).
So no... your snide remarks don't help because they are completely without warrant and completely wrong. Scott is in line for a couple of touches but nothing more. If Wilson fails this becomes the Green Bay Packers offense. Scott doesn't just get the 20-25 touches per game the Giants had game planned for Wilson. That isn't how the world of football works unless your backup is Ben Tate or Bernard Pierce or something.
Fantasy relevance is about not just opportunity but also skill. If Wilson failed Scott still would have had very little of both. Find me a fantasy website that was saying Scott was actually a good pickup after this weekend and I'll find you a fantasy site that I'm never going to visit.
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BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
If anyone knows what Giants running back David Wilson is going through after being benched for fumbling twice in Sunday night's 36-31 loss to the Cowboys, it's Tiki Barber.
Been there, done that for the former Giants Pro Bowl running back, who experienced his own fumbling issues midway through his career and had to undergo a dramatic transformation to fix the problem.
Barber watched and re-watched Wilson's two fumbles from Sunday and noticed immediately what the problem was -- namely that Wilson had failed to adequately secure the ball as Cowboys defenders successfully ripped the ball out of his hands. But if anyone suspects that Wilson is incapable of correcting the problem, Barber said that simply isn't the case.
"If people are ready to give up on David, that's ridiculous," Barber told Newsday. "As much as people want to say it's in his head, that he has to be smarter and man up and do these things, it's so much of a mechanical thing. It's fixable. The key is awareness of when contact is coming. If you watch David's fumbles, he's not aware of contact. He just thinks he can go through [the tackler], and by the time the contact comes, the ball is already compromised."
Giants coach Tom Coughlin on Wednesday said it is imperative that Wilson overcome his fumbling problems, even suggesting that the running back is now "a marked man." Coughlin will look carefully during practice to see that Wilson is using the proper technique. "In practice he's going to have to have the ball in that position all the time, not just when he thinks he's running free and there's nobody around him," Coughlin said. "I want to see the ball in the right spot all the time. And quite frankly, there's nowhere else to go with this. There's a way to carry the ball and there's a way to protect the ball. Ball security is No. 1. And that's what he's going to have to demonstrate."
Barber himself went through fumbling problems when he became a feature back under coach Jim Fassel. From 2000-03, Barber had a combined 35 fumbles, an average of nearly nine per season. When Coughlin took over for Fassel after the 2003 season, he had a meeting with Barber and explained his philosophy about fumbles in very simple, and very stark, terms.
"He said to me, 'If you're going to put the ball on the ground, you're not going to play,' " Barber said.
So the running back immediately got to work with running backs coach Jerald Ingram to address the problem. The operative phrase during that transformation was "high and tight," signifying the positioning of the ball as he ran. Barber would carry a football everywhere, holding it to his chest, with his hand up near his shoulder and his elbow down at around a 45-degree angle.
"I held it like that everywhere," Barber said. "I even do it now sometimes. I can't help but put it there in front of me. It became second nature. I even have to tell my kids, 'If you're going to carry the ball, you have to carry it like this.' "
Barber also added another technique to secure the ball. Once he sensed that he was about to be hit, he would take the hand he wasn't carrying the ball with and hold onto his opposite wrist to further protect the ball and add a layer of strength to deal with opponents trying to rip the ball away.
"I'd run through the contact in a compact way," he said. "It allowed me to run through tackles better. My feet were close together, and I was more balanced. The unintended consequence of carrying the ball like that is that I became a more powerful runner."
Wilson is now heeding that advice. He said Wednesday that he is already working on the technique Barber shared with him. The two texted several times on Tuesday.
"He gave me some advice I can really use," Wilson said. "It makes sense. It felt good in practice, so I plan on using it."
Barber cured his own problem. In the final three seasons of his career, he fumbled a combined eight times, one less fumble than the previous season alone. And his numbers improved, too. From 2000-03, he rushed for a combined 4,474 yards and 25 touchdowns. In his final three seasons, he ran for 5,040 yards and 27 touchdowns.
Barber believes Wilson is capable of those kinds of numbers -- or even better. He urges the Giants' second-year running back to remain optimistic about the future.
"I just gave him some encouragement, and hopefully he takes it," Barber said. "He can be special. This is the one thing that's hanging him up right now, and he can't let it become a self-fulfilling prophecy that gets him discouraged. I think he has a great attitude, and if he can figure it out -- and I think he will -- he has all the athletic ability to be a special player."
Been there, done that for the former Giants Pro Bowl running back, who experienced his own fumbling issues midway through his career and had to undergo a dramatic transformation to fix the problem.
Barber watched and re-watched Wilson's two fumbles from Sunday and noticed immediately what the problem was -- namely that Wilson had failed to adequately secure the ball as Cowboys defenders successfully ripped the ball out of his hands. But if anyone suspects that Wilson is incapable of correcting the problem, Barber said that simply isn't the case.
"If people are ready to give up on David, that's ridiculous," Barber told Newsday. "As much as people want to say it's in his head, that he has to be smarter and man up and do these things, it's so much of a mechanical thing. It's fixable. The key is awareness of when contact is coming. If you watch David's fumbles, he's not aware of contact. He just thinks he can go through [the tackler], and by the time the contact comes, the ball is already compromised."
Giants coach Tom Coughlin on Wednesday said it is imperative that Wilson overcome his fumbling problems, even suggesting that the running back is now "a marked man." Coughlin will look carefully during practice to see that Wilson is using the proper technique. "In practice he's going to have to have the ball in that position all the time, not just when he thinks he's running free and there's nobody around him," Coughlin said. "I want to see the ball in the right spot all the time. And quite frankly, there's nowhere else to go with this. There's a way to carry the ball and there's a way to protect the ball. Ball security is No. 1. And that's what he's going to have to demonstrate."
Barber himself went through fumbling problems when he became a feature back under coach Jim Fassel. From 2000-03, Barber had a combined 35 fumbles, an average of nearly nine per season. When Coughlin took over for Fassel after the 2003 season, he had a meeting with Barber and explained his philosophy about fumbles in very simple, and very stark, terms.
"He said to me, 'If you're going to put the ball on the ground, you're not going to play,' " Barber said.
So the running back immediately got to work with running backs coach Jerald Ingram to address the problem. The operative phrase during that transformation was "high and tight," signifying the positioning of the ball as he ran. Barber would carry a football everywhere, holding it to his chest, with his hand up near his shoulder and his elbow down at around a 45-degree angle.
"I held it like that everywhere," Barber said. "I even do it now sometimes. I can't help but put it there in front of me. It became second nature. I even have to tell my kids, 'If you're going to carry the ball, you have to carry it like this.' "
Barber also added another technique to secure the ball. Once he sensed that he was about to be hit, he would take the hand he wasn't carrying the ball with and hold onto his opposite wrist to further protect the ball and add a layer of strength to deal with opponents trying to rip the ball away.
"I'd run through the contact in a compact way," he said. "It allowed me to run through tackles better. My feet were close together, and I was more balanced. The unintended consequence of carrying the ball like that is that I became a more powerful runner."
Wilson is now heeding that advice. He said Wednesday that he is already working on the technique Barber shared with him. The two texted several times on Tuesday.
"He gave me some advice I can really use," Wilson said. "It makes sense. It felt good in practice, so I plan on using it."
Barber cured his own problem. In the final three seasons of his career, he fumbled a combined eight times, one less fumble than the previous season alone. And his numbers improved, too. From 2000-03, he rushed for a combined 4,474 yards and 25 touchdowns. In his final three seasons, he ran for 5,040 yards and 27 touchdowns.
Barber believes Wilson is capable of those kinds of numbers -- or even better. He urges the Giants' second-year running back to remain optimistic about the future.
"I just gave him some encouragement, and hopefully he takes it," Barber said. "He can be special. This is the one thing that's hanging him up right now, and he can't let it become a self-fulfilling prophecy that gets him discouraged. I think he has a great attitude, and if he can figure it out -- and I think he will -- he has all the athletic ability to be a special player."
Khy
Footballguy
The fact that Tiki is taking the kid under his wing is really a great thing. As much as we Giants fans hate Tiki for the way he acted when he retired, this makes me regain a little respect for the guy. He really did go through this EXACT same problem and not only did he solve it but he became one of the very best rushers in the NFL once he did and probably would be a Hall of Famer if he stuck around and did it for one or two more seasons and won a Super Bowl with the Giants. Tiki being a mentor to Wilson this year might be the very best thing for David Wilson to succeed.
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Rick James
Footballguy
I think I'm benching him this week, just because it's kinda fuzzy. I hope he runs for 150 and 2 TD's though.
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
I'm a little shocked at the lack of excitement for Scott in the FF community. I didn't expect to land him spending only 6$ FAAB and also getting him in the 2nd rd of waivers today. He is a legit concept as the Wilson alternative and as a NFL RB. His size and speed may even offer some upside. I expect TC to see what he can do. I also expect a quick hook if he doesn't do anything. If he performs, TC will ride him just like he did Andre Brown. Jacobs is not the answer, its not the late 2000s. Given this situation, Scott deserves a temporary look if he's healthy.
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Clifford
Footballguy
rizzler
Footballguy
fixed for you.
obviously if his fumbling continutes, he'll be seated.
as would any RB in the league.
not even AP would be bench exempt if he had a habit of 2-3 fumbles a game. common sense
Khy
Footballguy
I'm a little shocked that anyone is buying Scott at all... he's a mediocre late round talent. He's fast and... that's it. That's all he offers. The Giants know exactly what they have in Scott he's been on the team for three full training camps, offseasons and 2 full seasons now. The Giants know what they have in him, he's nothing more than a 2nd-3rd string guy. Even if they sat Wilson and gave him the starting job I'd expect his upside to be like... James Starks aka fantasy irrelevant.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Scott hurt his knee in practice today. Sounds like it could be significant. Amazing how fast things can change.
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Your love for Wilson is a little uncomfortable at this point. You are a bit too emotional to take your advise or get into a reasonable debate with. Wilson has not been productive and opened the door for Scott to prove himself. We typically move when situations like this occur, even for bums. He is obviously the top RB pickup this week even if it amounts to nothing. I'm just shocked not even one gup made a gamble or any experts are recomending him. They ignored Andre Brown and then ran with him in a simular situation when Wilson flopped, so the "they know what they have" argument isn't a great one.Khy said:
BrotherEsau
Footballguy
The fumbling issue aside, can he learn how to block? I am rolling with him this week (lack of better options), but I would think the bigger concern is his terrible pass-blocking.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Scott hurt his knee today. Nobody in their right mind is going to pick him up right now until there's at least clarification on how bad the injury is. For now, Wilson is 100% the play. The Giants really have no choice.
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Khy
Footballguy
Okay, wait. Let me get this straight. My love for Wilson is uncomfortable and I'm too emotional to take advice from. This coming from the guy who just said the following:
- Da'Rel Scott is "THE TOP RB PICKUP THIS WEEK"... clearly, because Joique Bell isn't a thing, or CJ Anderson or you know... any RB with actual talent and probable opportunity. Clearly it's a guy with very very very limited upside even with opportunity because he lacks any real talent is the top pickup.
- Every single expert and even GUPPIES agreed with me that there is absolutely zero to see with Scott. Bloom has him right up there in the same league as LaGarrette Blount and Leon Washington who both possess more talent than Scott. Hell he has Andre Brown as more valuable of an add right now and he won't even be able to play until Week 11.
So, who is actually being emotional? The guy who is calling Scott the Top RB pickup after Week 1? Or the guy who is being realistic that Scott is a mediocre 7th round talent (and deserving of such) and offers very very limited upside even if David Wilson fumbles two more times this week?
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ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Joique Bell was a play weeks ago. Congrats on being late with that...
What part of "I'm surprised" don't you get? I can give you a laundry list of bums Bloom(FF community in general) has promoted in similar situations as Scott. I thought there would be some kind of market going for a Wilson alternative. Fine with me. Scott has issues of his own, including fumbles with his small hands actually. But, for the same reason the Giants took a 7th round flyer on Scott and kept him around is the same reason I would look to gamble to see if he comes out of nowhere this week. He outplayed Wilson just days ago for crying out loud.
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
Let's not do this again, there's like 45 pages of this in this thread. I expect Wilson to not start but get good number of carries this week. I figure Coughlin will drive his point home by starting Scott or even Jacobs. Let's see where we go from there, my enthusiasm is waning fast.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
An RBBC is probably what's best for Wilson right now anyway. He needs to get his confidence up. I expect a big bounceback this week... not that it hard to do given where the bar was set last week.
Those buying Scott or *gasp* Jacobs could get something out of them, but I wouldn't expect much. Wilson isn't going anywhere... yet.
Those buying Scott or *gasp* Jacobs could get something out of them, but I wouldn't expect much. Wilson isn't going anywhere... yet.
Khy
Footballguy
Khy
Footballguy
Joique Bell wasn't really a 'play weeks ago'... he was owned in 30% of all Yahoo leagues now he's owned in 70%. Just because he was well known around the FBG circles doesn't really mean he was a play weeks ago. Oh and for your information I happen to own Bell in most of my leagues. The point I was trying to make is he is the true #1 RB add this week he isn't owned in nearly enough leagues to not be considered the main pickup.
Saying Scott just outplayed Wilson is ridiculous... he didn't fumble. Michael Cox outplayed Wilson too and he didn't see a single offensive snap. The simple thing is every waiver $ you spent on Scott is a waste. He's fantasy irrelevant with or without Wilson success.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
What's true? Wilson's play made him pretty relevant. Scott is a low-risk gamble on Wilson flopping, like usual. He won't hurt my team one bit if he doesn't show well, unlike Wilson. I'll drop him for the next hot topic. I thought more people would be making that link, even the guys who just do surface scouting aren't buying. Even the Wilson owners aren't worried. I would be if I owned him. I said no more than that. Maybe I should drop him for Jacquizz Rodgers or a extra kicker.
I figured Bell would already be owned. I don't play on yahoo. whateva
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Its not out of the question that only Wilson and Mike Cox suit up Sunday, right? Jacobs just got there and Scott may be injured.
NeonDeion21
Footballguy
I just acquired him in my 16 team redraft league. .5 PPR. I gave Schaub and Kenny Stills for him.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The Jacobs add doesn't impress me much.
He will improve.
He will improve.
Max Power
Footballguy
My concern with Jacobs is that if he is active on gameday, he IS the GL back. Gmen dont have any other use for him.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I have thought all offseason that Wilson was SEVERELY overhyped and overrated in the fantasy community...............however bailing on him for the peanuts some of you are talking about would be crazy.
Dealing him for a 2014 1st?? Unless that pick is 100% a lock for #1, or at worst top 2, no way. Not close.
Dealing him for a 2014 1st?? Unless that pick is 100% a lock for #1, or at worst top 2, no way. Not close.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
carverlee
Footballguy
Jacobs may end up surprising but it will not be this week.
I see Wilson getting about 10 touches before the Giants enter strictly pass mode, which Wilson will have no part of.. 9/40 + 1/15 is reasonable. Of course he could break the big one on one of his few carries and make your day.
I see Wilson getting about 10 touches before the Giants enter strictly pass mode, which Wilson will have no part of.. 9/40 + 1/15 is reasonable. Of course he could break the big one on one of his few carries and make your day.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Do you think he can catch 4-5 balls in catch up mode? Do the Giants run screens?
adding a guy like Jacobs was a sign that they had confidence in the current crew (Wilson, Scott, Cox and the FBs)
they didn't need a guy who could produce or with upside, more of a mentor and stop-gap type of guy.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I like Wilson, but I have a sick feeling that the O-line will be terrible again, Eli will throw 3 more INTs under pressure, and Wilson will end up stood up by 5 guys in the backfield while a 6th puts a helmet right on the ball and knocks it loose. And of course Eli will be treated as if he didn't turn it over, not a word will be said about the horrendous line play, and Wilson will end up with 12 more carries the rest of the season.
Khy
Footballguy
This... Jacobs has been the "goal line back" for the Giants before and was awful in that role. And that was when he wasn't almost 2 years removed from the game. Simply put, Jacobs isn't there to really do to much but help mentor Wilson. That's really is... Coughlin and the Giants will do everything in their power to make David Wilson work out. His issues ARE repairable. We've seen his exact issues fixed with Tiki, Bradshaw and Jacobs in the past and they'll figure out a way to fix them with Wilson. Like Tiki said in that article, he was walking around everywhere for weeks holding a football high and tight to the point where he was doing it so much it became second nature on the football field. As soon as he got the ball his instincts started to tell him to jam that ball into his shoulder pad and lock it in. Wilson WILL learn that too... it may take time or it may take this week. We really don't know. From the way Coughlin's making it sound; this hasn't been an issue in practices or even in preseason play. Which means it's probably some small mental hump he just has to find a way over. If it's a confidence thing then he needs a game or two to somehow come together without a ball leaving his hands then he'll be fine. And then everyone here who is freaking out about this situation and selling him for the likes of a 2014 First Round pick will be kicking themselves.
Yenrub
Footballguy
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
yeah, I'm sure it's been mentioned a dozen times already, but I think peterson fumbled about 20x his first 3 years.
so, I'm not saying this guy is ap, but we can give him a couple fumbles before cutting him from our fantasy teams and running him out of the league.
so, I'm not saying this guy is ap, but we can give him a couple fumbles before cutting him from our fantasy teams and running him out of the league.
