duaneok66
Footballguy
excellent point.
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***David Wilson Bandwagon*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jeff Pasquino
- Start date
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/08/a_breakdown_of_giants_running.html
I'm not too worried about Bradshaw's 4 year contract.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
DeAngelo is a very talented player in his own right and he been pretty durable compared to Bradshaw. No issues for me snagging wilson in dynasty and waiting a year.Might not have to wait that long
They've given him his $ via the signing bonus. Could part ways after this year.
zamboni
Footballguy
I don't think it's going to be that long, even if Bradshaw stays healthy this year.As per the Eli quote above, the Giants LOVE to run the football despite being pass-happy last year. 32nd in the league in rushing is not Giants football, and team brass clearly realizes that.With their defense, the Giants will likely want to run the ball a lot - maybe not the 500 carries that KC thinks they will get, but not too far off if at all possible. And you know they will not give Bradshaw 25 carries on a regular basis, which leaves lots of touches for Wilson. He may only get 10-15 carries IF Bradshaw stays healthy, but if Ahmad goes down, look out. And whether it's later this year or next, I have little doubt he'll be the main cog.
REDRUM26
Footballguy
He lead the NCAA last year in yards after contact and seeing him bounce off defenders like a pinball proves that (regardless of poor takling), he doesnt go down easy...
He's looking like someone whos going to be flex worthy all year and if Bradshaw ever went down he can be a Top 10-15 rb from week to week.
He's looking like someone whos going to be flex worthy all year and if Bradshaw ever went down he can be a Top 10-15 rb from week to week.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I missed out on him last night in an auction and got Mikel Leshoure instead. Not happy about that.
REDRUM26
Footballguy
The Giants havent drafted a RB this high in 12 years (2000 Ron Dayne - before the Coghlin era)
netnalp
Footballguy
Seems like many people, even Giants fans, incorrectly claim Coughlin doesn't play rookies. There's a long list of rookies that have played significant roles for the Coughlin led Giants.Bradshaw as a 7th round rookie was the 3rd guy. He was behind Jacobs and Ward. Can't really compare the situations.Fred Taylor was the 9th overall 1st round pick for Coughlin's Jags and he played in 15 games (12 starts) 264 rushes for 1223 yds, 14 TDs, 44 Rec for 421/3. That's a different team, situation and was back in 1998.I expect Bradshaw and Wilson to alternate series like he did with Jacobs. Bradshaw should be the primary 3rd down RB.'REDRUM26 said:
netnalp
Footballguy
I was surprised to see it said quite a bit by posters on Giants websites like BBI, Star-Ledger and BigBlueView. It's been said on FBG by posters before as well.
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Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
Actually, that is exactly how Coughlin (sp?) has been historically. But he has changed his approach a little over the past 3-5 years. Wilson would need to be able to pass protect to be on the field.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I've gotta say, the CJ Spiller comment not long ago has me a little spooked. Looking back at his numbers, they looked good too and after 2 years he has a handful of good games playing behind an over the hill vet with less of a resume than Bradshaw at the same times in their respective careers...
Clifford
Footballguy
I'm actually kinda pissed at myself for spending a 9th-rd pick on him in redraft. I think it takes a Bradshaw injury for him to be startable this year. Or maybe he plays his way past Bradshaw this season, but I see that as a lot less likely unless Bradshaw's wheels completely fall off.
Liquid Courage
Footballguy
There are two sides on the Bandwagon for Rookie players. One is Dynasty Value and the other is that year's Redraft Value. It's important to note that for Wilson there is a sizable gap between these two. I would agree that his value for 2012 in a redraft is limited. 1. He has a heathly (so far) Bradshaw ahead of him as well as a back in Ware with much more experience then him. 2. He still needs significant work on his pass blocking skills which will limit his time on the field. As far as Dynasty value goes; I'm very high on him. I'm not prediciting elite #1 RB status in a few years but I do believe that he'll become an excellent RB #2 that you'd want on your team. It appears to me that he has the physical skills to be a excellent runner and goal line back. I have him as the #3 RB behind Richardson and Martin.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Wilson is can be a game-changer. The Giants will find ways to utilize him this year. He take a Jamal Charles career-path but I think he has enough talent to eventually become the best RB in this class.
Tanner9919
Footballguy
by halftime of Giants opening game against Dallas, David Wilson will be a household name..he's a stud in the making.once he breaks off a long run or two against the Cowboys, the spotlight is on him..
Bradshaw might start the season but we know he can't stay healthy,reports out of Giants camp were that he appeared to be slower, as if he was running in sand..it's only a matter of time..
based on the fact that Wilson was a 1st round pick, I'd fully expect him to be the starter at some point this season , either from injury to Bradshaw,or that he's simply more effective than Bradshaw is/was..
they'll likely swap places, i.e., Wilson starts, Bradshaw is the c.o.p guy..that's how Bradshaw is most effective anyways..
can't compare him to CJ Spiller's Preaseason Spectacular of a few years ago..if you want to look at players lighting it up in preseason,you can look at Clinton Portis, Tomlinson, etc..
for every Spiller,there is a Portis..just because one guy stunk it up in 'real' games,doesn't mean that Wilson will do the same..I never got the reasoning behind saying if player X was good in preseason and bad in regular season, the same will hold true for player Y,Z.
betting black in roulette has nothing to do with the previous spin of the wheel.every event is it's own entity..one has nothing to do with the other..sdo what if Spiller was great in fake games, bad in regular games? how does that translate to Wilson? or Martin, or Richardson,for that matter? Peyton Manning was mediocre as a rookie, Cam Newton was lights-out..they have nothing to do with each other..
Bradshaw might start the season but we know he can't stay healthy,reports out of Giants camp were that he appeared to be slower, as if he was running in sand..it's only a matter of time..
based on the fact that Wilson was a 1st round pick, I'd fully expect him to be the starter at some point this season , either from injury to Bradshaw,or that he's simply more effective than Bradshaw is/was..
they'll likely swap places, i.e., Wilson starts, Bradshaw is the c.o.p guy..that's how Bradshaw is most effective anyways..
can't compare him to CJ Spiller's Preaseason Spectacular of a few years ago..if you want to look at players lighting it up in preseason,you can look at Clinton Portis, Tomlinson, etc..
for every Spiller,there is a Portis..just because one guy stunk it up in 'real' games,doesn't mean that Wilson will do the same..I never got the reasoning behind saying if player X was good in preseason and bad in regular season, the same will hold true for player Y,Z.
betting black in roulette has nothing to do with the previous spin of the wheel.every event is it's own entity..one has nothing to do with the other..sdo what if Spiller was great in fake games, bad in regular games? how does that translate to Wilson? or Martin, or Richardson,for that matter? Peyton Manning was mediocre as a rookie, Cam Newton was lights-out..they have nothing to do with each other..
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
spillers been good in real games
Time Kibitzer
Footballguy
'Tanner9919 said:
LordHusker
Hot sauce addict
:koolaid:'Tanner9919 said:
Teef
Footballguy
Reminds me of Donald Brown's rookie season.
Clifford
Footballguy
I'd lower TDs and up receiving yards but yeah, pretty much this unless Bradshaw goes down/gets benched.However crazier things have happened. Vick overtook Kolb because of superior play and that was at QB.
I think people are really selling Bradshaw short here - he's a terrific player. That said, Wilson is incredibly dynamic and he'll be on the field plenty, and if the above reports are true that Bradshaw looks slower he could certainly become the lead guy, but if Bradshaw's healthy I think he gets the biggest chunk of touches this season.
netnalp
Footballguy
There's also the chance even with sharing the load, Wilson has a Cruz-like season where he rips off several really long runs bumping him up.
netnalp
Footballguy
With his health concerns, I don't think he'll get the chance to see a big chunk. Bradshaw should get more touches than Wilson, but I don't believe he'll get many more touches a game than he has when healthy. I think it's like when Jacobs was the starter and the Giants decided to even the load between both RBs because Jacobs couldn't stay healthy under the heavy workload. I don't see why the Giants would give Bradshaw a heavier load than he's gotten in the past when he has had trouble staying healthy with that amount of work. The team isn't going to run Bradshaw into the ground and then if he gets hurt, have Wilson take over. The goal is for both backs to stay healthy all season. The best way to accomplish that is to share the work.
This is where I am. I'm almost always the guy scratching my head after a guy like this blows up. if it doesn't happen this year so be it.
I agree with everything you said - I don't envision Bradshaw suddenly becoming a workhorse Michael Turner type, but Bradshaw has been effective when sharing the rock (13th in 2010), and I think he'll continue to do a lot with his touches provided he's healthy, which is obviously a concern.
Clifford
Footballguy
Is he? Asking because I thought the same before looking at last year's game log, and I don't see someone explosive waiting to break out with a featured role, which was my mindset on him before doing my research. In the postseason he really picked it up, averaging 4.3 ypc and 7.1 ypr. He performed especially well against SF and their defense.But in the regular season he was a bit of a disappointment all around. In the first seven games before he got injured he had two good games, against Philly and Buffalo. In the other five he recorded lower than 4.0 ypc and did better in the passing game than running.After returning from injury he had one good game against Washington but that was it. Every other game was pedestrian in the rushing department.If Wilson can consistently run through the tackles and is a better runner, Bradshaw might actually fit the mold of COP back better than the rookie.
netnalp
Footballguy
One of the big question with the Giants is are they the team that played up & down to their competition during the regular season or the team that from the regular season game with the Packers to the SB (despite the turd vs. the 'Skins). Are they going to be like the 9-7 team or the 13-7 team this year?
JamesTheScot
Footballguy
Talent makes its own opportunity.Now, if you think Wilson is JAG, then yes, you can read this as a RBBC situation for the foreseeable future. But take into account Bradshaw's bad wheels, which are becoming chronic. I don't think Bradshaw has 3 more years in him at this rate. At least not as a lion share committee back. So even if Wilson doesn't prove himself to be superior, he could still end up as the lead back in the committee just because of Bradshaw's limitations. To me, lead back in the next 2-3 is Wilson's floor.
JamesTheScot
Footballguy
And that's the danger to Bradshaw. Coughlin wants an effective running game. Which means he's going to want the best player in there for any given situation. People keep mentioning Jacobs's share of the pie. That's a bit shallow in analysis. Jacobs and Bradshaw are two really different runners in terms of their styles. They each were a COP/compliment to each other. But even then, look at how Bradshaw won out by being more effective.
Now, consider that Bradshaw and Wilson aren't that different in terms of style. This isn't a COP, complimentary back situation. They basically are operating in the same niche. And that niche doesn't require a COP/compliment. It can be a 3-down feature back on its own. So if one or the other is clearly better by some margin, it's going to sort out pretty quick. Someone starts looking more like a back-up to the other rather than a COP. The emphasis on the BU is to to keep the starter fresh, which means he gets the crumbs. And the size of those crumbs is determined by how much the starter can swallow without choking.
That's why I think Bradshaw is vulnerable. He opens the door by needing to have a carry split because of his durability issues. He leaves lot's of opportunity on the table for another back that, in Wilson's case, can fill the exact same role more effectively. In essence, Bradshaw gives Wilson a window to showcase his ability against an identical opponent doing what Bradshaw does. If Wilson does it better, I think the outcome becomes inevitable. It can quickly become about giving Bradshaw just enough touches to keep Wilson fresh. If Wilson is durable, Bradshaw's share could really suffer.
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Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
And why is everyone JUST harping on Bradshaw's health? From what I remember he started to lose carries last season because of fumbling, is that correct?
zamboni
Footballguy
One other thing to consider is the Giants' generally keen evaluation of talent, particularly in the Jerry Reese years (which kills me to say, with reverence, as a Jets fan).
First round picks since Reese became GM:
2007 Aaron Ross
2008 Kenny Phillips
2009 Hakeem Nicks
2010 Jason Pierre-Paul
2011 Prince Amukamara
2012 David Wilson
Not too shabby.
That's not to say that the team can't miss (such as with Ron Dayne in the pre-Reese years), but it's a team that clearly knows their stuff in the scouting department.
First round picks since Reese became GM:
2007 Aaron Ross
2008 Kenny Phillips
2009 Hakeem Nicks
2010 Jason Pierre-Paul
2011 Prince Amukamara
2012 David Wilson
Not too shabby.
That's not to say that the team can't miss (such as with Ron Dayne in the pre-Reese years), but it's a team that clearly knows their stuff in the scouting department.
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I think Coughlin wants someone who's going to help keep Manning upright. Bradshaw certainly isn't great at it, but he's been there before. As far as injury is concerned, he's always dinged up but he's played 12, 16, 15, and 15 games. He's a gamer.
Clifford
Footballguy
Fixed
JamesTheScot
Footballguy
So on the list of things that Bradshaw does better than Wilson, you've got pass protection. A skill that can be learned by Wilson (like Bradshaw had to do when he was rookie) and at which you only need to be just sort of ho-hum to earn starts (like Bradshaw). That's not a lot to hang your hat on. You're essentially banking on Wilson being unable to learn to pass protect. It's also something that the coaches can address with in-game substitutions. What is Bradshaw's value as a 3rd down back while Wilson works on his pass protection? Obviously that's not a week 1 scenario, but it could end up that way by season's end if Wilson continues to impress and Bradshaw continues to look "meh".As far as injury goes, it isn't just about missed games. It's about getting rested during a game and having your BU run roughshod to the tune of 4.9 ypc against the same defense you were only managing 3.3 ypc against. That's a very real scenario here. Bradshaw's feet have the potential to diminish his production even when he suits up and plays. As long as Russell Wilson was playing with the 2's and 3's, Flynn could argue it was an apples and oranges comparison. As soon as it becomes an apples to apples comparison, the guy with experience runs out of excuses.As far as Bradshaw being a gamer...he is. But why would they play him hurt and/or less effective if they have a guy just as good or better standing right next to him? Anyone remember when Carolina shut DeAngelo down for the year even though there was talk he could come back? That sort of thing happens when you don't bring anything to the table that the other back can't do. It gives the staff the option of shutting you down to get you healed sooner or lessen risk of further injury.
netnalp
Footballguy
That was 2010 when Bradshaw had 7 fumbles. Last year Bradshaw had 1 fumble. He got benched for the first half in the first Cowboys game for a curfew violation. Usually Bradshaw lost touches to lighten his load due to his feet. Jacobs originally lost carries due to not staying healthy, but Bradshaw became the starter when Jacobs wasn't as effective of a runner. I think it's because he changed his style of running to one that tried to avoid contact so he'd get injured less but taht made him a less effective runner so he lost carries.
netnalp
Footballguy
Football Outsiders or is it Pro Football Focus? Can't recall, but I do remember Bradshaw grades out according to their metric as one of the top pass blockers amongst RBs the past few years. I think Wilson will just need to be adequate in pass blocking to see time.It isn't sufficient to look at the number of games Bradshaw played in each season to get an idea about how his feet have held up. During most of the past two seasons, Bradshaw would not practice during the season. He'd participate in the weekly walk-through and then play the game that week. His level of play was impacted more than missing games.
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REDRUM26
Footballguy
its PFF and Bradshaw grades out as the BEST pass protector at the RB spot... I hate when someone makes #### up about a player
One
Not Allowed In Mexico
Bradshaw '11 (NYG-NFL) - 1 fumble/1 lost Wilson '11 (VT-NCAA) - 7 fumble/4 lost
