***David Wilson Bandwagon*** (2 Viewers)

[Eminence]

I would love to see the tape from this game.

 

[Eminence]

It doesn't help the o-line very much knowing they're going to get blitzed like crazy whenever Wilson is in, no.

Football is a numbers game, the less men blitzing, the better your protection likely is.

Throw in a 205 lb back who can't stonewall a defender, yeah, it makes the o-line's job a lot harder.

So the line can't block anyone, but defenders only decide to blitz when DW is in the game? That's the argument you are making?

No, and I don't know where you came up with this at all.

From the line I bolded above.

As stated by someone else. the Giants line gets blitzed because they can't block. Not because Wilson can't block. That latter fact is debateable... Not by you of course, because you are all knowing, right?

Is it not possible, that it's...

*gasp*

Both? Maybe teams are blitzing when Wilson is in because the line sucks AND because Wilson is a liability in pass-protection?

Could be a comoound cause right there and nowhere in this thread have I made any subjective comments positve or negative about the Giants O-Line.

Would you, as a Defensive Coordinator, NOT blitz David Wilson every chance you got? That's just smart football, right? Sure, you might be burnt on a draw but you'll probably get your hand on David Wilson in the backfield for a potential fumble or put Eli Manning on the ground.

Not like the 205 lb weasel is going to stonewall your defender.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Did I ever say one specific guy tackled him 20 times? You're grasping at straws here.

Ever read the quotes from Ravens players about them being happy Trent Richardson is out of their division?

You're a rube to think some RB don't inflict more punishment on defenders than others and that's the basis of the argument.

But please, continue to take everything I say out of context.

so, basically, the mlb makes one tackle on the guy and the ss is mentally exhausted just watching that action?

fyi -- these dudes have spent their entire adult lives in a weight room, and when they weren't lifting weights they were tackling the #### out of somebody, which is how they got to the nfl.

they just got done making a million tackles, but watching some guy next to them tackle a 220 lb guy just saps their will to live to the point where they get run over on the next series.

the way you look at things I'm surprised we don't have more 400 lb rb -- that would just be common sense.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

btw, you know you can d/l these games?

and gamepass might have rewind built in, but I have no idea

 

[Eminence]

Did I ever say one specific guy tackled him 20 times? You're grasping at straws here.

Ever read the quotes from Ravens players about them being happy Trent Richardson is out of their division?

You're a rube to think some RB don't inflict more punishment on defenders than others and that's the basis of the argument.

But please, continue to take everything I say out of context.

so, basically, the mlb makes one tackle on the guy and the ss is mentally exhausted just watching that action?

fyi -- these dudes have spent their entire adult lives in a weight room, and when they weren't lifting weights they were tackling the #### out of somebody, which is how they got to the nfl.

they just got done making a million tackles, but watching some guy next to them tackle a 220 lb guy just saps their will to live to the point where they get run over on the next series.

the way you look at things I'm surprised we don't have more 400 lb rb -- that would just be common sense.

We're obviously suffering some disconnect here, so I'll end on this and then we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you've pounded the rock relentlessly with a 227lb Running Back all game long, let's say 16 - 17 times. This Running Back is constantly falling forward for yards, dragging your defenders, pounding them, fighting for every single yard. Throwing defenders to the turf on pass-protection.

You don't think that after 45 minutes of action, these players on defense don't slow down a bit? Don't feel the effects of a 227 lb man imposing their will on them? Not even enough to the point that they may get a little gassed.

Suddenly, you throw in David Wilson who is a fresh daisy, has only ran the ball 7 - 8 times this game. You don't think after having to battle with a physical plodder, that some players (not all, some of these guys are ridiculous athletes) would more likely to allow yardage to a 205 lb David Wilson?

Maybe I'm wrong and I most certainly could be. But I like David Wilson's chances of popping a huge run much better after a Running Back has already initiated a little contact with the defenders?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snKcnRR34Uo

(Second play, throws the safety to the ground.)

Edit: But yeah, either way. Agree to disagree.

 

[Eminence]

btw, you know you can d/l these games?

and gamepass might have rewind built in, but I have no idea

Ooh, really? I'll have to look into that. After all this is the internet, there's not much you can't really download on here.

Everyone else, back to your Bandwagon Thread. Choo, Choo! Go G-Men!

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

btw, you know you can d/l these games?

and gamepass might have rewind built in, but I have no idea

Ooh, really? I'll have to look into that. After all this is the internet, there's not much you can't really download on here.

Everyone else, back to your Bandwagon Thread. Choo, Choo! Go G-Men!

if you torrent stuff you can get all the games at tenyardtorrents and some guy suggested adfreetime.com for gamepass, but I haven't looked into that yet

 

[Short Corner]

If that TD didn't get called back last week he would have scored 11.6 points last week. The time is coming for him, I'm just not sure it's this week or the next week. I really wish he wasn't going up against the Chiefs or else I'd be starting him with confidence. I'm tempted to wait this week out and play Bolden in my flex instead. I would not be surprised if this is the week where the magic happens though.

You can EASILY make an argument that the Chiefs are the easiest rushing defense the Giants have faced this entire season. Lets look at the breakdown so far.

Week 1: Dallas Cowboys

• Week 1 - NYG (32nd): Allowed 50 rushing yards
• Week 2 - KC (11th): Allowed 114 rushing yards
• Week 3 - STL (29th): Allowed 35 rushing yards
• Averaged: 66.3ypg (2nd overall in the NFL)

Week 2: Denver Broncos

• Week 1 - BAL (25th): Allowed 58 rushing yards
• Week 2 - NYG (32nd): Allowed 23 rushing yards
• Week 3 - OAK (3rd): Allowed 49 rushing yards
• Averaged: 43.3ypg (1st overall in the NFL)

Week 3: Carolina Panthers

• Week 1 - SEA (8th): Allowed 70 rushing yards
• Week 2 - BUF (5th): Allowed 149 rushing yards
• Week 3 - NYG (32nd): Allowed 60 rushing yards
• Averaged: 93.0ypg (10th overall in the NFL)

It seems facing the NYG has helped these run D's look better statistically

NYG is getting about 47% of what teams are giving up against their non-NYG opponents, so if the trend continues, they would get about 60 yards this week. Calling him a RB2 with upside is a joke. He is a low end flex play (with upside) at best. If you need the variance you put him in, but if you have a close game or an advantage, there is no way in hell he should see your line up until the G-Men can riight the ship.

 

[steveski]

Here's another one, pal:

2nd Quarter: 2nd and 10 at NYG 31 - D.Wilson up the middle to NYG 26 for -5 yards (T.Davis).

Thomas Davis is a linebacker, 5-yard loss. I assume that's a blitz? That's 2 of Wilson's 24 snaps accounted for. So far, more facts from me than for you...

Here's another!

3rd Quarter: 1st and 10 at CAR 34 - D.Wilson left tackle to CAR 35 for -1 yards (C.Blackburn; K.Short).

Chase Blackburn, OLB. Going to assume he was blitzing on this one. 3 / 24 of Wilson's snaps accounted for. Where are your facts?

So was David Wilson supposed to block for himself? The offensive line is terrible and the play calling and their usage of Wilson is ridiculous. Only people who look back on the stats and don't actually see the games are the ones that can't see that. Why aren't they throwing screen passes or dumping it down to him? He did a lot of his damage last year in the passing game. Get the guy in open space and he'll punish you.

And for one of your earlier points where you said he's a 1 trick pony and basically just a speedster. Wasn't he one of the leaders in college in YAC? Did you see his beautiful catch in the endzone last year that 90% of RB's in the NFL can't make? Look on YouTube for 2012 David Wilson highlights. He must be one of those rare 1 trick ponies that have more than 1 trick. He can catch, break tackles, leap over a pile, and he hits another gear when he hits the secondary.

 

[Khy]

Okay, Eminence wants cold hard facts and numbers. Lets first debunk some of his "cold hard facts and numbers". I'm pulling all these numbers from my PFF account.

1. You said David Wilson was only in on 30% of the snaps. FALSE David Wilson played 26 of the Giants 53 offensive snaps which would put him right around 50% of the snaps played.

2. You claimed that over half of Wilson's snaps the defense blitzed. I can't actually find any numbers pointing to this for or against it. Things I can tell you:

• David Wilson was on the field in 5 pass blocking situations.
• He allowed 0 hurries, hits or sacks on those 5 situations
• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.
• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

3. This idea you have that a 'big back' wears down a defense more. There's very little difference in tackling someone who is 227lbs vs someone who is 209lbs. If anything, Wilson is 'harder' to bring down as he's closer to the ground and has a better center of gravity. BMI is a better measure of how hard someone is to tackle as their height does play a big deal in this idea you have. Your belief is that a bigger guy is harder to bring down because he's heavier. Which is false and you'll never find actual proof of that. It makes no sense, Brown is no more powerful than David Wilson. You have this idea in your head that weight is = to power. Which isn't true... you could probably make a correlation to BMI being related to power. What makes Andre Brown a 6' 227lb back with 30.8 BMI harder to tackle than David Wilson 5'9 209lbs at 30.9BMI? Please... enlighten me? They're not bench pressing Brown, they're hitting him and tackling him. I would agree that tackling say... Jamaal Charles who has a like 27.5 BMI is harder than Wilson. But between Brown and Wilson they're really the same size guy just different heights. You're also ignoring the fact that Wilson led the NCAA in yards after contact and (I don't remember the exact %) had a ridiculous % of first contact tackles broken. He's incredibly strong and his legs are about the size of most average humans waists.

4. David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

You actually have no, natta, zero, zip evidence for all this s$%t you keep spewing in this thread. Except your own emotions.

 

[FDC]

I would love to see the tape from this game.

I watched it twice what do you want to know?

CAR's front 4 smelled blood early and feasted all day. They didn't need to blitz. IIRC Eli went down voluntarily 3 times the pocket collapsed so quick. And when Kuechly or Davis has a 2 or 5 yard loss it doesn't necessarily mean they were blitzing they are just good at reading and sniffing out a run play.

IOW Wilson had little to do with the terrible pass pro

 

[FDC]

something to consider

“I had an idea of what they run and what they like to do in situations,” Blackburn said. “We had a great game plan going in. I’ve been sharing all the information all week. Guys, all of us, linebackers were out there knowing what to do; (defensive backs) knew what kind of routes they were going to get off the route combinations.

“It makes for a big difference when you can play the game at that speed. We were able to play fast because we were aware of what they were going to do.”

 

[JuniorNB]

Overrated, one trick pony.

/endthread

Oh look you're back to give everyone your horrible talent evaluation skills.

You're a joke. If everyone listened to me they would have avoided the Fantasy void that is David Wilson.

How many points does he have in your league?

Please troll somewhere else. Troll

 

[TheFanatic]

It doesn't help the o-line very much knowing they're going to get blitzed like crazy whenever Wilson is in, no.

Football is a numbers game, the less men blitzing, the better your protection likely is.

Throw in a 205 lb back who can't stonewall a defender, yeah, it makes the o-line's job a lot harder.

So the line can't block anyone, but defenders only decide to blitz when DW is in the game? That's the argument you are making?

No, and I don't know where you came up with this at all.

From the line I bolded above.

As stated by someone else. the Giants line gets blitzed because they can't block. Not because Wilson can't block. That latter fact is debateable... Not by you of course, because you are all knowing, right?

Is it not possible, that it's...

*gasp*

Both? Maybe teams are blitzing when Wilson is in because the line sucks AND because Wilson is a liability in pass-protection?

Could be a comoound cause right there and nowhere in this thread have I made any subjective comments positve or negative about the Giants O-Line.

Would you, as a Defensive Coordinator, NOT blitz David Wilson every chance you got? That's just smart football, right? Sure, you might be burnt on a draw but you'll probably get your hand on David Wilson in the backfield for a potential fumble or put Eli Manning on the ground.

Not like the 205 lb weasel is going to stonewall your defender.

Your circular logic in this thread is dizzying. The QB got sacked three times because the other two RB's whiffed on blocks, but you can't show a single instance where Wilson got Eli sacked. So if they did blitz whenever he was in there, he was up to the task. And if he was, I doubt the Panthers would've kept with a plan that didn't work when blitzing the other RB's accounted for three sacks.

BTW, a LB tackling a RB for a 1 yard loss does not assume a blitz. All it means is they made contact near the LOS. That could've happened near the sideline with the RB trying to take it to the outside. But keep making assumptions about play calling from a line of text in the play by play and passing them off as "facts".

 

[msudaisy26]

something to consider

“I had an idea of what they run and what they like to do in situations,” Blackburn said. “We had a great game plan going in. I’ve been sharing all the information all week. Guys, all of us, linebackers were out there knowing what to do; (defensive backs) knew what kind of routes they were going to get off the route combinations.

“It makes for a big difference when you can play the game at that speed. We were able to play fast because we were aware of what they were going to do.”

This makes the coaching staff look bad if one of their former linebackers still knows all their plays.

 

[TheFanatic]

Okay, Eminence wants cold hard facts and numbers. Lets first debunk some of his "cold hard facts and numbers". I'm pulling all these numbers from my PFF account.

1. You said David Wilson was only in on 30% of the snaps. FALSE David Wilson played 26 of the Giants 53 offensive snaps which would put him right around 50% of the snaps played.

2. You claimed that over half of Wilson's snaps the defense blitzed. I can't actually find any numbers pointing to this for or against it. Things I can tell you:

• David Wilson was on the field in 5 pass blocking situations.
• He allowed 0 hurries, hits or sacks on those 5 situations
• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.
• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

3. This idea you have that a 'big back' wears down a defense more. There's very little difference in tackling someone who is 227lbs vs someone who is 209lbs. If anything, Wilson is 'harder' to bring down as he's closer to the ground and has a better center of gravity. BMI is a better measure of how hard someone is to tackle as their height does play a big deal in this idea you have. Your belief is that a bigger guy is harder to bring down because he's heavier. Which is false and you'll never find actual proof of that. It makes no sense, Brown is no more powerful than David Wilson. You have this idea in your head that weight is = to power. Which isn't true... you could probably make a correlation to BMI being related to power. What makes Andre Brown a 6' 227lb back with 30.8 BMI harder to tackle than David Wilson 5'9 209lbs at 30.9BMI? Please... enlighten me? They're not bench pressing Brown, they're hitting him and tackling him. I would agree that tackling say... Jamaal Charles who has a like 27.5 BMI is harder than Wilson. But between Brown and Wilson they're really the same size guy just different heights. You're also ignoring the fact that Wilson led the NCAA in yards after contact and (I don't remember the exact %) had a ridiculous % of first contact tackles broken. He's incredibly strong and his legs are about the size of most average humans waists.

4. David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

You actually have no, natta, zero, zip evidence for all this s$%t you keep spewing in this thread. Except your own emotions.

 

[msudaisy26]

Okay, Eminence wants cold hard facts and numbers. Lets first debunk some of his "cold hard facts and numbers". I'm pulling all these numbers from my PFF account.

1. You said David Wilson was only in on 30% of the snaps. FALSE David Wilson played 26 of the Giants 53 offensive snaps which would put him right around 50% of the snaps played.

2. You claimed that over half of Wilson's snaps the defense blitzed. I can't actually find any numbers pointing to this for or against it. Things I can tell you:

• David Wilson was on the field in 5 pass blocking situations.
• He allowed 0 hurries, hits or sacks on those 5 situations
• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.
• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

3. This idea you have that a 'big back' wears down a defense more. There's very little difference in tackling someone who is 227lbs vs someone who is 209lbs. If anything, Wilson is 'harder' to bring down as he's closer to the ground and has a better center of gravity. BMI is a better measure of how hard someone is to tackle as their height does play a big deal in this idea you have. Your belief is that a bigger guy is harder to bring down because he's heavier. Which is false and you'll never find actual proof of that. It makes no sense, Brown is no more powerful than David Wilson. You have this idea in your head that weight is = to power. Which isn't true... you could probably make a correlation to BMI being related to power. What makes Andre Brown a 6' 227lb back with 30.8 BMI harder to tackle than David Wilson 5'9 209lbs at 30.9BMI? Please... enlighten me? They're not bench pressing Brown, they're hitting him and tackling him. I would agree that tackling say... Jamaal Charles who has a like 27.5 BMI is harder than Wilson. But between Brown and Wilson they're really the same size guy just different heights. You're also ignoring the fact that Wilson led the NCAA in yards after contact and (I don't remember the exact %) had a ridiculous % of first contact tackles broken. He's incredibly strong and his legs are about the size of most average humans waists.

4. David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

You actually have no, natta, zero, zip evidence for all this s$%t you keep spewing in this thread. Except your own emotions.

That is some good stuff, he does sound like a good buy low. The problem is do the Giants get it turned around enough for him to have some fantasy value this year? and none of us know that.

 

[elbowrm]

I'm on board - traded L Miller for him straight up. Choo choo!

 

[TheFanatic]

Okay, Eminence wants cold hard facts and numbers. Lets first debunk some of his "cold hard facts and numbers". I'm pulling all these numbers from my PFF account.

1. You said David Wilson was only in on 30% of the snaps. FALSE David Wilson played 26 of the Giants 53 offensive snaps which would put him right around 50% of the snaps played.

2. You claimed that over half of Wilson's snaps the defense blitzed. I can't actually find any numbers pointing to this for or against it. Things I can tell you:

• David Wilson was on the field in 5 pass blocking situations.
• He allowed 0 hurries, hits or sacks on those 5 situations
• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.
• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

3. This idea you have that a 'big back' wears down a defense more. There's very little difference in tackling someone who is 227lbs vs someone who is 209lbs. If anything, Wilson is 'harder' to bring down as he's closer to the ground and has a better center of gravity. BMI is a better measure of how hard someone is to tackle as their height does play a big deal in this idea you have. Your belief is that a bigger guy is harder to bring down because he's heavier. Which is false and you'll never find actual proof of that. It makes no sense, Brown is no more powerful than David Wilson. You have this idea in your head that weight is = to power. Which isn't true... you could probably make a correlation to BMI being related to power. What makes Andre Brown a 6' 227lb back with 30.8 BMI harder to tackle than David Wilson 5'9 209lbs at 30.9BMI? Please... enlighten me? They're not bench pressing Brown, they're hitting him and tackling him. I would agree that tackling say... Jamaal Charles who has a like 27.5 BMI is harder than Wilson. But between Brown and Wilson they're really the same size guy just different heights. You're also ignoring the fact that Wilson led the NCAA in yards after contact and (I don't remember the exact %) had a ridiculous % of first contact tackles broken. He's incredibly strong and his legs are about the size of most average humans waists.

4. David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

You actually have no, natta, zero, zip evidence for all this s$%t you keep spewing in this thread. Except your own emotions.

That is some good stuff, he does sound like a good buy low. The problem is do the Giants get it turned around enough for him to have some fantasy value this year? and none of us know that.

As a Rams fan, I know that O line issues are hard to fix midstream. So who knows.

It's one of those chicken and the egg things. They are not committed to run, so teams can play to stop the pass and their passing game sucks right now because Eli is being pressured all the time. One would think that this would open up the running lanes. But they just aren't trying that enough to keep the secondary honest and have to gear up to protect the run.

Watching Peyton on MNF, I watched a guy methodically carve up what the D would give him. They wanted to blitz from the right, he passed or ran to the left. They wanted to double Thomas (either) he checked down to Welker. If they wanted to double both Thomases, he handed off for a nice run.

Eli and the giants seem to do the opposite. They seem to be forcing plays no matter what is happening on the other side of the field. I mean if they have a bad O-Line, why aren't they screening like crazy to any of the RB's?

 

[steveski]

Okay, Eminence wants cold hard facts and numbers. Lets first debunk some of his "cold hard facts and numbers". I'm pulling all these numbers from my PFF account.

1. You said David Wilson was only in on 30% of the snaps. FALSE David Wilson played 26 of the Giants 53 offensive snaps which would put him right around 50% of the snaps played.

2. You claimed that over half of Wilson's snaps the defense blitzed. I can't actually find any numbers pointing to this for or against it. Things I can tell you:

• David Wilson was on the field in 5 pass blocking situations.
• He allowed 0 hurries, hits or sacks on those 5 situations
• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.
• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

3. This idea you have that a 'big back' wears down a defense more. There's very little difference in tackling someone who is 227lbs vs someone who is 209lbs. If anything, Wilson is 'harder' to bring down as he's closer to the ground and has a better center of gravity. BMI is a better measure of how hard someone is to tackle as their height does play a big deal in this idea you have. Your belief is that a bigger guy is harder to bring down because he's heavier. Which is false and you'll never find actual proof of that. It makes no sense, Brown is no more powerful than David Wilson. You have this idea in your head that weight is = to power. Which isn't true... you could probably make a correlation to BMI being related to power. What makes Andre Brown a 6' 227lb back with 30.8 BMI harder to tackle than David Wilson 5'9 209lbs at 30.9BMI? Please... enlighten me? They're not bench pressing Brown, they're hitting him and tackling him. I would agree that tackling say... Jamaal Charles who has a like 27.5 BMI is harder than Wilson. But between Brown and Wilson they're really the same size guy just different heights. You're also ignoring the fact that Wilson led the NCAA in yards after contact and (I don't remember the exact %) had a ridiculous % of first contact tackles broken. He's incredibly strong and his legs are about the size of most average humans waists.

4. David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

You actually have no, natta, zero, zip evidence for all this s$%t you keep spewing in this thread. Except your own emotions.

That is some good stuff, he does sound like a good buy low. The problem is do the Giants get it turned around enough for him to have some fantasy value this year? and none of us know that.

I think so but it probably won't be this week. The center and right guard both missed practice yesterday with lingering injuries. They might play but the fact they didn't practice is a bad sign. As someone else already stated, they have a rookie at RT. He's looked fine. Not great, but not bad. He should continue to improve. They should be getting Diehl back either this week or next as he's been out all season. He usually plays RT, so I'm assuming he'll play at guard or somewhere else if he can play this week. This offensive line isn't much different than it was last year and they were pretty damn good last year. They are in a rough patch. Unfortunately I'm not sure how much better it will be this week, but assuming there are no more injuries and everybody continues to improve, I don't see why we wouldn't see a drastic improvement within the next few weeks.

 

[Concept Coop]

The din is too loud to get anything of substance from this thread. Burn it down!

 

[Khy]

Okay, Eminence wants cold hard facts and numbers. Lets first debunk some of his "cold hard facts and numbers". I'm pulling all these numbers from my PFF account.

1. You said David Wilson was only in on 30% of the snaps. FALSE David Wilson played 26 of the Giants 53 offensive snaps which would put him right around 50% of the snaps played.

2. You claimed that over half of Wilson's snaps the defense blitzed. I can't actually find any numbers pointing to this for or against it. Things I can tell you:

• David Wilson was on the field in 5 pass blocking situations.
• He allowed 0 hurries, hits or sacks on those 5 situations
• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.
• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

3. This idea you have that a 'big back' wears down a defense more. There's very little difference in tackling someone who is 227lbs vs someone who is 209lbs. If anything, Wilson is 'harder' to bring down as he's closer to the ground and has a better center of gravity. BMI is a better measure of how hard someone is to tackle as their height does play a big deal in this idea you have. Your belief is that a bigger guy is harder to bring down because he's heavier. Which is false and you'll never find actual proof of that. It makes no sense, Brown is no more powerful than David Wilson. You have this idea in your head that weight is = to power. Which isn't true... you could probably make a correlation to BMI being related to power. What makes Andre Brown a 6' 227lb back with 30.8 BMI harder to tackle than David Wilson 5'9 209lbs at 30.9BMI? Please... enlighten me? They're not bench pressing Brown, they're hitting him and tackling him. I would agree that tackling say... Jamaal Charles who has a like 27.5 BMI is harder than Wilson. But between Brown and Wilson they're really the same size guy just different heights. You're also ignoring the fact that Wilson led the NCAA in yards after contact and (I don't remember the exact %) had a ridiculous % of first contact tackles broken. He's incredibly strong and his legs are about the size of most average humans waists.

4. David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

You actually have no, natta, zero, zip evidence for all this s$%t you keep spewing in this thread. Except your own emotions.

That is some good stuff, he does sound like a good buy low. The problem is do the Giants get it turned around enough for him to have some fantasy value this year? and none of us know that.

I think so but it probably won't be this week. The center and right guard both missed practice yesterday with lingering injuries. They might play but the fact they didn't practice is a bad sign. As someone else already stated, they have a rookie at RT. He's looked fine. Not great, but not bad. He should continue to improve. They should be getting Diehl back either this week or next as he's been out all season. He usually plays RT, so I'm assuming he'll play at guard or somewhere else if he can play this week. This offensive line isn't much different than it was last year and they were pretty damn good last year. They are in a rough patch. Unfortunately I'm not sure how much better it will be this week, but assuming there are no more injuries and everybody continues to improve, I don't see why we wouldn't see a drastic improvement within the next few weeks.

If I had to make my best guess for the scenario I see the offensive line breaking down like this in the coming weeks...

LT - Beatty, no change here, Beatty let up 3 sacks last week but all last season he let up a total of 3. PFF had him ranked as the 11th tackle in the NFL. I'd be willing to bet that his issues right now are stemming from having to over compensate for the injuries on the line.

LG - Kevin Boothe - He's actually been okay so far this season in pass blocking (bad in run blocking). He only allowed 1 QB hit and 1 QB hurry and 0 sacks this season.

C - David Baas - He was rated poorly in pass blocking last season and this season likely won't be any different. He benefits by being a very good run blocker. He's also injured right now, so last season he was ranked as the 21st C by PFF and he's playing below that health level right now.

RG - Chris Snee - Last season he was ranked 13th by PFF but this offseason he had hip surgery and had an MRI on that hip that the Giants haven't released the results of yet. There must have been cause for concern if they got a MRI on him. Right now he's ranked as one of the worst guards in football. CLEARLY there's something wrong with his hip.

RT - Justin Pugh - He's been pretty mediocre... he allowed 2 sacks in the Carolina game, he also allowed 7 hurries and 1 hit. He was easily the biggest breakdown in the line last week. Coming out though they said that he was a little small to play tackle and probably slotted in much better at guard. He has small arms and has issues getting separation. While he's strong and has good feet, his arms don't allow him for much room for improvement as a tackle.

So right now the BIG breakdowns are on the right side of the line. Snee and Pugh have combined for 5 sacks, 1 hit and 25 hurries in 3 games. Snee is clearly not healthy and I'm thinking the best thing right now would be when Diehl comes back the Giants let Snee rest for a game or two and slot Pugh into RG for the time being where he is playing better to his strengths. When Snee gets to health you sit the rook and put the old line back together. So yeah, this week 'might' not see much improvement. Especially considering they have to play Justin Houston and Tamba Hali. Beatty is going to see a lot of Houston as about 75% of his rushes come off LT. So I'm assuming that Beatty will be getting most of the RB and FB help on pass blocking downs.

 

[zamboni]

Sorry if I missed it in the 73 pages, but the Giants signed John Conner as FB to replace the injured Hynoski.

An under-the-radar signing that could be helpful for Wilson - Conner was a fierce blocker in his short time with the Jets. Not sure why they cut him in the first place, as well as the Bengals thereafter.

 

[texansfan80]

LOL at all of you arguing. What a joke

 

[steveski]

LOL at all of you arguing. What a joke

Care to elaborate? What's the joke? It's a discussion about David Wilson and this is his bandwagon thread. Therefore, people are generally high on him and people are able to support it with facts and not "LOL but he got 3 points"

 

[B-Deep]

i had thought this thread had bottomed out

i was wrong

 

[Khy]

i had thought this thread had bottomed out

i was wrong

You should no better by now Deep... you should know better.

 

[B-Deep]

i had thought this thread had bottomed out

i was wrong

You should no better by now Deep... you should know better.

lol

at least neither side has a cornber on the market of driving this thread down!

 

[TheFanatic]

LOL at all of you arguing. What a joke

LOL at you stepping into a 73 page thread and expecting something different. Or coming in at all and offering this comment. Can I get my 2 second of my life back?

 

[davo32683]

I have never seen a group get so bent out of shape on a message board. I am an owner of Wilson and it's not the end of the world either way.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

I have never seen a group get so bent out of shape on a message board. I am an owner of Wilson and it's not the end of the world either way.

Joined 05-August 13

 

[Khy]

I have never seen a group get so bent out of shape on a message board. I am an owner of Wilson and it's not the end of the world either way.

Joined 05-August 13

Yeah, clearly you haven't been around these message boards enough. This thread is business as usual.

 

[B-Deep]

I have never seen a group get so bent out of shape on a message board. I am an owner of Wilson and it's not the end of the world either way.

Joined 05-August 13

Yeah, clearly you haven't been around these message boards enough. This thread is SERIOUS business as usual.

 

[B-Deep]

I have never seen a group get so bent out of shape on a message board. I am an owner of Wilson and it's not the end of the world either way.

Joined 05-August 13

Yeah, clearly you haven't been around these message boards enough. This thread is SERIOUS business as usual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjmYee2ZfSk

 

[Wrigley]

I have never seen a group get so bent out of shape on a message board. I am an owner of Wilson and it's not the end of the world either way.

Joined 05-August 13

Yeah, clearly you haven't been around these message boards enough. This thread is SERIOUS business as usual.

same as day 1

 

[Eminence]

I would love to see the tape from this game.

I watched it twice what do you want to know?

CAR's front 4 smelled blood early and feasted all day. They didn't need to blitz. IIRC Eli went down voluntarily 3 times the pocket collapsed so quick. And when Kuechly or Davis has a 2 or 5 yard loss it doesn't necessarily mean they were blitzing they are just good at reading and sniffing out a run play.

IOW Wilson had little to do with the terrible pass pro

Statistically, how many snaps Wilson played (in the first half when the game was still competitive) and how many of those snaps Wilson was blitzed.

So, you're saying that it's possible that the Panthers Defensive Line was just playing very good? ...and that all the arguments that I've been having with everyone are pretty much invalid?

Again, I've never argued that the Giants O-Line was playing good or bad. Only that (my assumption) was that Wilson was getting frequently tackled in the backfield because teams are more comfortable bltizing / selling out to the run when Wilson was in the game.

BECAUSE HE'S A LIABILITY IN PASS PROTECTION.

But everyone keeps twisting my argument around so they can make some "pseudo" point and start high-fiving each other. They don't seem to realize that the Panthers getting pressure from their front-4 does not invalidate my assumption that David Wilson isn't getting blitzed.

They didn't have to blitz (maybe because the G-Men have a poor O-line, maybe because the Panthers have a good D-line). I don't have evidence to support either claim, but the fact that the Panthers were able to get pressure from their front 4 does nothing to defeat my argument that opposing Defenses aren't selling out to stop David Wilson when he's in the game.

Which is all I've been claiming before I've been forced to jump through hoops by everyone here.

 

[JuniorNB]

I think we have an early clubhouse leader in the 'Biggest tool in the Shark Pool' contest for this season.

 

[FDC]

Eminence could bring up valid point

Schematically the reason why the Giants offense is so terrible with Wilson in is there is little reason to not be aggressive with Wilson in the game.

The Giants offense involves pass plays that are typically long developing. Giants don't usually throw screens to Wilson. And Wilson is a liability in pass protection. There is no reason not to get aggressive.

 

[Eminence]

LOL at all of you arguing. What a joke

Care to elaborate? What's the joke? It's a discussion about David Wilson and this is his bandwagon thread. Therefore, people are generally high on him and people are able to support it with facts and not "LOL but he got 3 points"

What facts do you want? This whole argument started because people tried telling me teams aren't blitzing / selling out to the run when Wilson is in the game.

Nobody has been able to use any "facts" to prove me wrong thus far on that. But the more this thread keeps going people keep distorting my arguments, which is really cute.

The point is, and something that everyone needs to realize:

DAVID WILSON HAS SHOWN A WEAKNESS IN BOTH PASS-PROTECTION AND BALL SECURITY THIS SEASON.

Because of this, teams are willing to "test" David Wilson during games. If you knew that there was a good chance the 205 lb David Wilson would whiff on a block (and he's proven he might), I would be sending massive heat his way every chance that I got.

WHY?

Because you'll either get a hand on him in the backfield or a chance to blow up his blitz pickup and get pressure on Eli Manning.

Maybe in this game, it was all the Giants O-line's fault. I never said they were good or bad at Pass Protection. Maybe this game, the Panthers D-line was so overwhelming that they didn't need to blitz.

He's got 7.85 points in my Main League. That's through 3 games and is a complete joke. That screams lack of opportunity because even RB with ####ty offensive lines have scored more than 7.85 points on the season. But that's my point.

There are 31 other teams in this league and you guys are all showing clear bias towards David Wilson as if he's actually produced for 1,200 Yards / 8 Touchdowns before. He hasn't. And the majority of his stats last-year came from a few gamebreaking Touchdown runs that went for ridiculous yardage.

These runs? The blocking was near-perfect and he sprints through the hole using his world-class speed for a touchdown. He didn't use exceptional vision, patience, or football moves to get his scoring plays last-year (and the bulk of his Fantasy Points).

This year, now, with subpar blocking, he hasn't been able to produce. Doesn't that cause you to bat an eyebrow? Why is it that when he's not playing against a putrid New Orleans Saints defense that he's not producing? Why is it that Tom Coughlin is pulling him from the game in Passing Situations?

I think as part of a committee, David Wilson has great NFL prospects. I think in games against piss-poor defenses, the blocking will be there and David Wilson will scamper 40 - 50 yards for a Touchdown run.

But he has done absolutely nothing to show me he can produce when the Run Blocking isn't absolutely perfect. And if any of you guys drafted Wilson for anythiing other than his ability to hit long runs, then you have no clue what player you have.

This is the NFL, you can't run full-speed into defenders and expect that to be your bread and butter play. You have to set guys up, make them miss, etc

This is why David Wilson won't excel as a lead-back. I'm done with this stupid bandwagon thread. The guy has skunked you 3 times now and you all still love him. Feel free to bump this post Week 17 where I can say, "I told you so".

Because I guarantee, if Wilson does start producing. It's going to be on those ridiculous long runs where he bumps it outside on perfect blocking. And do you know what that will mean?

ONE TRICK, PONY.

 

[Eminence]

Okay, Eminence wants cold hard facts and numbers. Lets first debunk some of his "cold hard facts and numbers". I'm pulling all these numbers from my PFF account.

1. You said David Wilson was only in on 30% of the snaps. FALSE David Wilson played 26 of the Giants 53 offensive snaps which would put him right around 50% of the snaps played.

2. You claimed that over half of Wilson's snaps the defense blitzed. I can't actually find any numbers pointing to this for or against it. Things I can tell you:

• David Wilson was on the field in 5 pass blocking situations.
• He allowed 0 hurries, hits or sacks on those 5 situations
• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.
• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

3. This idea you have that a 'big back' wears down a defense more. There's very little difference in tackling someone who is 227lbs vs someone who is 209lbs. If anything, Wilson is 'harder' to bring down as he's closer to the ground and has a better center of gravity. BMI is a better measure of how hard someone is to tackle as their height does play a big deal in this idea you have. Your belief is that a bigger guy is harder to bring down because he's heavier. Which is false and you'll never find actual proof of that. It makes no sense, Brown is no more powerful than David Wilson. You have this idea in your head that weight is = to power. Which isn't true... you could probably make a correlation to BMI being related to power. What makes Andre Brown a 6' 227lb back with 30.8 BMI harder to tackle than David Wilson 5'9 209lbs at 30.9BMI? Please... enlighten me? They're not bench pressing Brown, they're hitting him and tackling him. I would agree that tackling say... Jamaal Charles who has a like 27.5 BMI is harder than Wilson. But between Brown and Wilson they're really the same size guy just different heights. You're also ignoring the fact that Wilson led the NCAA in yards after contact and (I don't remember the exact %) had a ridiculous % of first contact tackles broken. He's incredibly strong and his legs are about the size of most average humans waists.

4. David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

You actually have no, natta, zero, zip evidence for all this s$%t you keep spewing in this thread. Except your own emotions.

Wow, you guys are literally ######ed.

First of all, if you read the ####### thread. It's Avery who cares about Facts. He #####ed about them over and over until I supplied them and once I did, he dipped out of the thread.

http://rosterwatch.com/things-have-gone-from-bad-to-worse-for-giants-rb-david-wilson-in-fantasy-football

That's where I got David Wilson's 30% snap count from. Can you give me the site where you're getting these stats from? Either way, everything after halftime is irrelevant to the initial argument. Any team up 17 points is doing much blitzing.

• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.

+The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

+Or gee, maybe they came in the 4th Quarter when Carolina was playing 'prevent' defense? From what I see in the stat sheet, he has quite a few 10-yarders in the 4th Quarter.

If you don't think tackling someone who weighs 22 more lbs isn't more difficult, then any type of debate is useless with you. That's the basics of physics, it literally requires MORE WORK to do so.

If you're trying to knock down a small wall, what's going to get the job done more effectively? Using a 205 lb battering ram? Or using a 227 lb battering ram?

David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

Are you slow?

BREAKING TACKLES does not equal ELUSIVENESS. I want my 205 lb Running Back who's game is based mainly on speed MAKING GUYS MISS, not bouncing off contact. All this does is actually support my argument that Wilson lacks football moves, so thanks.

I honestly wonder if you even read what you post before posting it.

1. That rosterwatch article is from Week 2, using Week 2 snap counts. We're discussing his week 3 snap counts, which were 50% of the offensive counts.

2. You're correct, the absense of evidence is indeed not the evidence of absence, it's evidence of existence. Which doesn't prove either of our points which is exactly what I said.

3. Find me one article somewhere that proves tackling someone heavy is harder than tackling someone lighter? There's zero proof for such an argument. It's actually not basic physics, it's the complete opposite of basic physics. Basic physics would tell you that height, weight and speed combined are what makes a person harder to tackle. A shorter, stockier and faster player is harder to tackle than a taller, stocky, slower player. That's simple physics. Think about it this way... take a 227 pound block of clay that is 6 feet tall and try to knock it over. It will be much easier to knock over than it's 5' 9" 209lb counter part. Because the height vs weight ratio (aka BMI in a human) gives you more leverage when pushing on it.

4. How is breaking tackles no elusiveness? Please enlighten me? Also my bad on saying 'tackles broken' as the stat is actually missed tackles. Which includes both tackles broken and tackles avoided. Again, PFF has him ranked #3 overall among starting RBs.

You really need to stop coming in here and acting like you have literally any clue what you're talking about as it makes you look ridiculous. You are literally MAKING UP rules about physics and making up stats about the Panthers blitzing more when Wilson was on the field. You're making up snap counts because you can't even read the date on an article and instead of just going to pro-football-reference.com or nfl.com or rotoworld and looking at the snap count you just pull % out to prove your point. Just stop man, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

1.) OOPS. Still, we have no correlation of the blitz / overall defensive aggressiveness from when David Wilson was in the game. Which was, ya' know. The whole entire argument.

3.) Seriously, dude? What's going to be easier to pick up and force to the ground? A 205 lb man? Or a 227 lb man? Defenses can literally throw a shoulder at Wilson and send him flying.

4.) Elusiveness, in my opinion is NOT GETTING CAUGHT. Setting up your blocks, weaving in and out, juking, making guys miss. From the way I've seen David Wilson play, the way he "breaks tackles" is by running full speed into defenders and awkwardly bouncing off. Which, I don't really consider a productive football move.

"How is breaking tackles no elusiveness? Please enlighten me? Also my bad on saying 'tackles broken' as the stat is actually missed tackles. Which includes both tackles broken and tackles avoided. Again, PFF has him ranked #3 overall among starting RBs."

How many tackles has he missed? ...and how many tackles has be broken? To me, this distinction is important in proving whether or not David Wilson lacks football moves.

You really need to stop coming in here and acting like you have literally any clue what you're talking about as it makes you look ridiculous. You are literally MAKING UP rules about physics and making up stats about the Panthers blitzing more when Wilson was on the field. You're making up snap counts because you can't even read the date on an article and instead of just going to pro-football-reference.com or nfl.com or rotoworld and looking at the snap count you just pull % out to prove your point. Just stop man, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

Holy hyperbole, yep. That's exactly what happened. I totally made up that it requires more force to move an object with a heavier weight. I never gave any stats about the Panthers blitzing, instead, I've asked for them and no one has been able to provide them. And I made an honest mistake on snap counts.

*shrugs*

What's more ridiculous? Me, trying to debunk that a player with 7.85 Fantasy Points on the year might not be as good as you guys think? Or you guys continuing to make excuses for the guy?

 

[Eminence]

Eminence could bring up valid point

Schematically the reason why the Giants offense is so terrible with Wilson in is there is little reason to not be aggressive with Wilson in the game.

The Giants offense involves pass plays that are typically long developing. Giants don't usually throw screens to Wilson. And Wilson is a liability in pass protection. There is no reason not to get aggressive.

Thank you, can everyone read this post and weigh in on it? This is the argument I've been trying to make and apparently at least one guy gets it.

Thank God.

 

[steveski]

You are literally MAKING UP rules about physics and making up stats about the Panthers blitzing more when Wilson was on the field. You're making up snap counts because you can't even read the date on an article and instead of just going to pro-football-reference.com or nfl.com or rotoworld and looking at the snap count you just pull % out to prove your point. Just stop man, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

Actually he's the only one that is actually posting real data. You're just the one making stuff up like this:

Still, we have no correlation of the blitz / overall defensive aggressiveness from when David Wilson was in the game.

Which, I don't really consider a productive football move.

How many tackles has he missed? ...and how many tackles has be broken?

And I made an honest mistake on snap counts.

 

[Khy]

Okay, Eminence wants cold hard facts and numbers. Lets first debunk some of his "cold hard facts and numbers". I'm pulling all these numbers from my PFF account.

1. You said David Wilson was only in on 30% of the snaps. FALSE David Wilson played 26 of the Giants 53 offensive snaps which would put him right around 50% of the snaps played.

2. You claimed that over half of Wilson's snaps the defense blitzed. I can't actually find any numbers pointing to this for or against it. Things I can tell you:

• David Wilson was on the field in 5 pass blocking situations.
• He allowed 0 hurries, hits or sacks on those 5 situations
• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.
• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

3. This idea you have that a 'big back' wears down a defense more. There's very little difference in tackling someone who is 227lbs vs someone who is 209lbs. If anything, Wilson is 'harder' to bring down as he's closer to the ground and has a better center of gravity. BMI is a better measure of how hard someone is to tackle as their height does play a big deal in this idea you have. Your belief is that a bigger guy is harder to bring down because he's heavier. Which is false and you'll never find actual proof of that. It makes no sense, Brown is no more powerful than David Wilson. You have this idea in your head that weight is = to power. Which isn't true... you could probably make a correlation to BMI being related to power. What makes Andre Brown a 6' 227lb back with 30.8 BMI harder to tackle than David Wilson 5'9 209lbs at 30.9BMI? Please... enlighten me? They're not bench pressing Brown, they're hitting him and tackling him. I would agree that tackling say... Jamaal Charles who has a like 27.5 BMI is harder than Wilson. But between Brown and Wilson they're really the same size guy just different heights. You're also ignoring the fact that Wilson led the NCAA in yards after contact and (I don't remember the exact %) had a ridiculous % of first contact tackles broken. He's incredibly strong and his legs are about the size of most average humans waists. 4. David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

You actually have no, natta, zero, zip evidence for all this s$%t you keep spewing in this thread. Except your own emotions.

Wow, you guys are literally ######ed.

First of all, if you read the ####### thread. It's Avery who cares about Facts. He #####ed about them over and over until I supplied them and once I did, he dipped out of the thread.

http://rosterwatch.com/things-have-gone-from-bad-to-worse-for-giants-rb-david-wilson-in-fantasy-football

That's where I got David Wilson's 30% snap count from. Can you give me the site where you're getting these stats from? Either way, everything after halftime is irrelevant to the initial argument. Any team up 17 points is doing much blitzing.

• The Panthers ran a blitz on 7 separate players throughout the game. I have no clue if there is any correlation between those 7 plays and the 5 Wilson blocked on.

+The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

• The negative runs you keep quoting both are attributed to the left side of the line breaking down. He didn't record a single positive play that was run to the left side. He, shockingly was best running up the middle where he averaged 10ypc on 5 carries for 50 yards.

+Or gee, maybe they came in the 4th Quarter when Carolina was playing 'prevent' defense? From what I see in the stat sheet, he has quite a few 10-yarders in the 4th Quarter.If you don't think tackling someone who weighs 22 more lbs isn't more difficult, then any type of debate is useless with you. That's the basics of physics, it literally requires MORE WORK to do so.

If you're trying to knock down a small wall, what's going to get the job done more effectively? Using a 205 lb battering ram? Or using a 227 lb battering ram?

David Wilson isn't elusive. What? He currently ranked 3rd overall in the NFL in elusive rating on PFF. He's averaging 2.48 yards after contact per run. Which ranks him 8th overall right now. He's 10th in tackles broken with 8 total. Which is rather insane when you think about it. As he has 8 tackles broken on 25 rushing attempts. Compare that to people above him like Joique Bell (34att, 10breaks), CJ Spiller (43 att, 10 breaks), Murray (58 att, 10 breaks), Lynch (62 att 11 breaks). He's actually been rather elusive when he's gotten even a small chance to be.

Are you slow?

BREAKING TACKLES does not equal ELUSIVENESS. I want my 205 lb Running Back who's game is based mainly on speed MAKING GUYS MISS, not bouncing off contact. All this does is actually support my argument that Wilson lacks football moves, so thanks.

I honestly wonder if you even read what you post before posting it.

1. That rosterwatch article is from Week 2, using Week 2 snap counts. We're discussing his week 3 snap counts, which were 50% of the offensive counts.

2. You're correct, the absense of evidence is indeed not the evidence of absence, it's evidence of existence. Which doesn't prove either of our points which is exactly what I said.

3. Find me one article somewhere that proves tackling someone heavy is harder than tackling someone lighter? There's zero proof for such an argument. It's actually not basic physics, it's the complete opposite of basic physics. Basic physics would tell you that height, weight and speed combined are what makes a person harder to tackle. A shorter, stockier and faster player is harder to tackle than a taller, stocky, slower player. That's simple physics. Think about it this way... take a 227 pound block of clay that is 6 feet tall and try to knock it over. It will be much easier to knock over than it's 5' 9" 209lb counter part. Because the height vs weight ratio (aka BMI in a human) gives you more leverage when pushing on it.

4. How is breaking tackles no elusiveness? Please enlighten me? Also my bad on saying 'tackles broken' as the stat is actually missed tackles. Which includes both tackles broken and tackles avoided. Again, PFF has him ranked #3 overall among starting RBs.

You really need to stop coming in here and acting like you have literally any clue what you're talking about as it makes you look ridiculous. You are literally MAKING UP rules about physics and making up stats about the Panthers blitzing more when Wilson was on the field. You're making up snap counts because you can't even read the date on an article and instead of just going to pro-football-reference.com or nfl.com or rotoworld and looking at the snap count you just pull % out to prove your point. Just stop man, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

1.) OOPS. Still, we have no correlation of the blitz / overall defensive aggressiveness from when David Wilson was in the game. Which was, ya' know. The whole entire argument.

3.) Seriously, dude? What's going to be easier to pick up and force to the ground? A 205 lb man? Or a 227 lb man? Defenses can literally throw a shoulder at Wilson and send him flying.

4.) Elusiveness, in my opinion is NOT GETTING CAUGHT. Setting up your blocks, weaving in and out, juking, making guys miss. From the way I've seen David Wilson play, the way he "breaks tackles" is by running full speed into defenders and awkwardly bouncing off. Which, I don't really consider a productive football move.

"How is breaking tackles no elusiveness? Please enlighten me? Also my bad on saying 'tackles broken' as the stat is actually missed tackles. Which includes both tackles broken and tackles avoided. Again, PFF has him ranked #3 overall among starting RBs."

How many tackles has he missed? ...and how many tackles has be broken? To me, this distinction is important in proving whether or not David Wilson lacks football moves.

You really need to stop coming in here and acting like you have literally any clue what you're talking about as it makes you look ridiculous. You are literally MAKING UP rules about physics and making up stats about the Panthers blitzing more when Wilson was on the field. You're making up snap counts because you can't even read the date on an article and instead of just going to pro-football-reference.com or nfl.com or rotoworld and looking at the snap count you just pull % out to prove your point. Just stop man, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

Holy hyperbole, yep. That's exactly what happened. I totally made up that it requires more force to move an object with a heavier weight. I never gave any stats about the Panthers blitzing, instead, I've asked for them and no one has been able to provide them. And I made an honest mistake on snap counts.

*shrugs*

What's more ridiculous? Me, trying to debunk that a player with 7.85 Fantasy Points on the year might not be as good as you guys think? Or you guys continuing to make excuses for the guy?

Did you actually just say that a tackle involves lifting the player? WHAT? You sure you're not watching rugby!? Since when do LBs or Lineman lift a player when tackling. You tackle a few ways and none of which require lifting. You hit someone high and try to knock them over. You wrap your arms and fall and hope your momentum brings them down with you. You trip them at their ankles. But you don't lift them up and put them into the ground. This is the NFL not the XFL man.

 

[TheFanatic]

Eminence could bring up valid point

Schematically the reason why the Giants offense is so terrible with Wilson in is there is little reason to not be aggressive with Wilson in the game.

The Giants offense involves pass plays that are typically long developing. Giants don't usually throw screens to Wilson. And Wilson is a liability in pass protection. There is no reason not to get aggressive.

Thank you, can everyone read this post and weigh in on it? This is the argument I've been trying to make and apparently at least one guy gets it.

Thank God.

You looked at a line from the play by play and said, "tackled for a 1 yard loss. Must've been a blitz." That's pretty hilarious.

And you say the guy has a problem pass blocking, yet the other two RB's gave up three sacks between them. Yet you think some how the opposing D's are licking their chops because DW is in there.

And did you catch the block Jamaal Charles put out last week? I think Joe sent it in the random thoughts thread. That guy is 190. Guys can block at less than 220. They can even do it at less than 200.

Your premise is that D's blitz heavier when DW is in the game, but have not offered up any actual proof of that. Others have clearly shown that three of the sacks were when other RB's were in the game.

 

[Eminence]

Eminence could bring up valid point

Schematically the reason why the Giants offense is so terrible with Wilson in is there is little reason to not be aggressive with Wilson in the game.

The Giants offense involves pass plays that are typically long developing. Giants don't usually throw screens to Wilson. And Wilson is a liability in pass protection. There is no reason not to get aggressive.

Thank you, can everyone read this post and weigh in on it? This is the argument I've been trying to make and apparently at least one guy gets it.

Thank God.

You looked at a line from the play by play and said, "tackled for a 1 yard loss. Must've been a blitz." That's pretty hilarious.

Uh, most likely. Didn't watch the game. Are you saying it wasn't a blitz? Please enlighten me. Obviously it's possible that it's not.

And you say the guy has a problem pass blocking, yet the other two RB's gave up three sacks between them. Yet you think some how the opposing D's are licking their chops because DW is in there.

Uh, I've made no statements on the other Giants RB. So, their sack totals are pretty irrelevant. Just because they're bad, doesn't mean defenses don't want to go after a 205 lb Running Back when he's in there.

And did you catch the block Jamaal Charles put out last week? I think Joe sent it in the random thoughts thread. That guy is 190. Guys can block at less than 220. They can even do it at less than 200.

Jamaal Charles isn't David Wilson. If he was, he'd have more than 7.85 Fantasy Points.

Your premise is that D's blitz heavier when DW is in the game, but have not offered up any actual proof of that. Others have clearly shown that three of the sacks were when other RB's were in the game.

Nor has there been evidence of the contrary and I guess if no one wants to do the legwork, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I don't care if you guys don't believe me but you're pretty much admitting here there's no proof otherwise.

What happened with the other backs in the game is completely irrelevant when discussing David Wilson's fantasy prospects.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Hey Eminence, can you play the "I have a website" card again? Only don't delete it right away this time. I was laughing too hard to click on your link right away. Maybe paired up with some more "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU'RE ####### WITH!!!" tough guy shtick. TIA.

Thought we were carding people at the door here. Guess not...

He dos have a twitter, unfortunately he only has 4 tweets. Which is a

crying shame. I was really hoping to go through 1,000 tweets while I'm bored at work and get some true insight into one of the greatest football minds under the age of 21.

New user name inbound the minute someone remembers that url and posts it here. And someone will...

 

[JuniorNB]

But yeah, I'm totally done.

It's pretty obvious I'm dealing with a bunch of guys who drafted / own David Wilson and are now getting hypersensitive the moment anybody wants to criticize / analyze why he's struggling a little bit. This is similar to me walking into a church and trying to explain to everyone why Abortion is morally correct.

Even if I fabricate a decent argument, there are going to be a mass group of people on my ### telling me I'm wrong and detracting me from the actual argument. Everything I've stated still stands:

1.) I believe defenses are more aggressive when Wilson is in the game. This is because of his lack of football moves and sub-par Pass Blocking abilities.

2.) The majority of David Wilson's Fantasy Points will come from LONG TOUCHDOWN RUNS. Just as they did last-year, he's not just going to magically become a complete back over night.

That's all I've been saying this entire time. If you think I'm wrong, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. Apparently David Wilson is the messiah, go figure.

I am sure the argument we are having will have sorted itself out by Week 12, or so. So, I'll be back then to see if any of you have seen the light.

And to everyone who has called me a troll or an idiot, block me. Because anyone with a discerning eye can tell you I give VERY GOOD Fantasy Football advice. Hell, if you listened to me during the off-season you would have known I had David Wilson as a SELL HIGH.

And I'm guessing had you sold David Wilson (or avoided drafting him), your team would be in a much better place than it is now.

Seriously though, everyone who has talked smack about me, block me. I don't want to deal with your nonsense. If I'm an idiot, block the idiot. Just realize that this "idiot" told everyone to sell David Wilson before the season started, which now looks like the Shark Move.

Peace.

I'm not considering a word you say until you go even bigger with your font. Perhaps 24. Or even 36. And I want more stuff bolded.

 

[davearm]

Eminence could bring up valid point

Schematically the reason why the Giants offense is so terrible with Wilson in is there is little reason to not be aggressive with Wilson in the game.

The Giants offense involves pass plays that are typically long developing. Giants don't usually throw screens to Wilson. And Wilson is a liability in pass protection. There is no reason not to get aggressive.

The thing is, Wilson is probably no worse in pass protection than the other backs. So what you're describing as Wilson problem, is really a Giants problem.

And when Wilson is in there, defenses have to respect his homerun ability moreso than with the other guys.

Regardless of the above, what we're hearing is that the Panthers didn't blitz much at all last week -- I think I saw someone post that they blitzed on 7 plays. So defenses being aggressive maybe isn't at the root of the problem, either.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Skimmed over the last 4-5 pages after not being in the thread for almost a week. Wow.

Just like Nicks can't throw it to himself, Wilson can't block for himself either. On my bench again this week. Every week it is possible he breaks a long one, but that won't mean he starts the next week for me. Need to see more. Hope he does get more carries and yards in the coming weeks. Like Coughlin said, we need him.

 

[Kree]

Eminence could bring up valid point

Schematically the reason why the Giants offense is so terrible with Wilson in is there is little reason to not be aggressive with Wilson in the game.

The Giants offense involves pass plays that are typically long developing. Giants don't usually throw screens to Wilson. And Wilson is a liability in pass protection. There is no reason not to get aggressive.

The thing is, Wilson is probably no worse in pass protection than the other backs. So what you're describing as Wilson problem, is really a Giants problem.

And when Wilson is in there, defenses have to respect his homerun ability moreso than with the other guys.

Regardless of the above, what we're hearing is that the Panthers didn't blitz much at all last week -- I think I saw someone post that they blitzed on 7 plays. So defenses being aggressive maybe isn't at the root of the problem, either.

The defenses don't need to blitz, that's how abhorrent our offensive line play has been this year. Eli is getting no time as it is which, as pointed out, is a massive problem in our offensive system. The protection issue is present at every single position.

Beatty was one of the better LTs in the game per play last year, this year he's a turnstile. Snee looks ready to retire, and Boothe not much better. Pugh has been adequate, but as a RT it doesn't mean much.

To go with that, there've been some injuries there, Baas nor Snee having practiced this week, and Diehl's been in and out, not that he would help.

Wilson is a non factor until they just decide to give him the ball. Too much else to worry about with the passing game to expect much to develop BECAUSE of that, it's purely down to ball in hand output.