Dental costs U.S. vs. Mexico 65K vs 3K WoW! (1 Viewer)

[SHIZNITTTT]

LOS ALGODONES, Mexico (AP) -- Mark Bolzern traveled 3,700 miles to go to the dentist. The 56-year-old Anchorage, Alaska, native left home this spring, made a pit stop in Las Vegas to pick up a friend, and kept heading south, all the way to Los Algodones, Mexico, a small border town teeming with dental offices.

About 60 percent of Americans have dental insurance coverage, the highest it has been in decades. But even so, the nation's older population has been largely left behind. Nearly 70 percent of seniors are not insured, according to a study compiled by Oral Health America. A major reason is because dental care is not covered by Medicare and many employers no longer offer post-retirement health benefits. What's more, the Affordable Care Act allows enrollees to get dental coverage only if they purchase general health coverage first, which many seniors don't need. At the same time, seniors often require the most costly dental work, like crowns, implants and false teeth.

As a result, many are seeking cheaper care in places like Los Algodones, where Mexican dentists who speak English and sometimes accept U.S. insurance offer rock-bottom prices for everything from a cleaning to implants. Dentists in Los Algodones say a large portion of their clients are seniors.

In the desert outpost near the border of California and Arizona, men in white shirts stand outside of offices with signs advertising root canals and teeth cleanings. Other signs advertise prescription drugs like muscle relaxers at low rates - no prescription needed.

For Bolzern, seeing a dentist in Los Algodones meant a savings of up to $62,000. He was told the extensive dental work he needed - his teeth needed to be raised and he needed a crown on every molar - would cost $65,000 at a private dentist. He looked for lower rates, finding a dental school where the work was less expensive because it was performed by students. But it still cost $35,000.

He paid $3,000 in Mexico and has been back several times.

The cost of dental care has surged in the last two decades and continues to increase at a rate of 5 percent annually. Many dental plans have high deductibles and don't offer extensive coverage. Many people opt out.

Mexico has lower costs because of cheaper labor and fewer regulatory requirements. Residents in border towns like El Paso, Texas and Nogales, Sonora, often make the short drive to the Mexican side for basic medical needs and prescription medications that are much costlier in the U.S. Some businesses even offer shuttle services from the Phoenix area to Los Algodones, a nearly 200-mile ride.

Going abroad for cheaper health care is nothing new. Americans have been doing it for years, for everything from elective, cosmetic procedures to major, life-saving surgery.

Matthew Messina, a practicing dentist and consumer adviser on behalf of the American Dental Association, said Americans who visit dentists in foreign countries should do a lot of research before they go.

Different countries use different types of equipment, and some items, such as implants, may not have warranties. Malpractice lawsuits may not be an option.

Dentists in Los Algodones say they attend less school than their counterparts in U.S. but spend more time practicing clinical work. They say they practice the same safety standards as American dentists and have offices that are just as clean.

José Obed Zuñiga has been a dentist in Los Algodones for a decade and found business was so good he opened his own shop about two years ago.

"Everything, the quality, is very similar to the United States," Zuñiga said. "We see the work from the United States, and it's very competitive."

Aiti Gutierrez left her home in the state of Tamaulipas, Mexico, 1,400 miles away, to practice in a Los Algodones office that has four patient rooms and a lobby with a water-stacked mini-fridge. In the busy season, she sees about a dozen patients a day, and 12-hour work days aren't unusual.

"They like to feel comfortable and that they're safe," Gutierrez said of her clients.

© 2015 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.
How in the world could the cost be that much different? I guess those 50K lion hunts is where that extra money is needed.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

This is why 4 out of 5 dentists recommend building a wall.

 

[Bucky86]

Murica

 

[eoMMan]

No thanks.

 

[NutterButter]

Street almost had experimental back surgery down there, but luckily Riggins convinced him otherwise.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I bet it's only $40 in Zimbabwe! That proves how terrible the U.S. is!!!!!!

 

[FUBAR]

Blame the lawyers

 

[xulf]

Will my Mexican dentist undress me and poop on me? If not, I'm out.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Will my Mexican dentist undress me and poop on me? If not, I'm out.

Montezuma's Revenge is not just for tourists...

 

[St. Louis Bob]

LOS ALGODONES, Mexico (AP) -- Mark Bolzern traveled 3,700 miles to go to the dentist. The 56-year-old Anchorage, Alaska, native left home this spring, made a pit stop in Las Vegas to pick up a friend, and kept heading south, all the way to Los Algodones, Mexico, a small border town teeming with dental offices.

About 60 percent of Americans have dental insurance coverage, the highest it has been in decades. But even so, the nation's older population has been largely left behind. Nearly 70 percent of seniors are not insured, according to a study compiled by Oral Health America. A major reason is because dental care is not covered by Medicare and many employers no longer offer post-retirement health benefits. What's more, the Affordable Care Act allows enrollees to get dental coverage only if they purchase general health coverage first, which many seniors don't need. At the same time, seniors often require the most costly dental work, like crowns, implants and false teeth.

As a result, many are seeking cheaper care in places like Los Algodones, where Mexican dentists who speak English and sometimes accept U.S. insurance offer rock-bottom prices for everything from a cleaning to implants. Dentists in Los Algodones say a large portion of their clients are seniors.

In the desert outpost near the border of California and Arizona, men in white shirts stand outside of offices with signs advertising root canals and teeth cleanings. Other signs advertise prescription drugs like muscle relaxers at low rates - no prescription needed.

For Bolzern, seeing a dentist in Los Algodones meant a savings of up to $62,000. He was told the extensive dental work he needed - his teeth needed to be raised and he needed a crown on every molar - would cost $65,000 at a private dentist. He looked for lower rates, finding a dental school where the work was less expensive because it was performed by students. But it still cost $35,000.

He paid $3,000 in Mexico and has been back several times.

The cost of dental care has surged in the last two decades and continues to increase at a rate of 5 percent annually. Many dental plans have high deductibles and don't offer extensive coverage. Many people opt out.

Mexico has lower costs because of cheaper labor and fewer regulatory requirements. Residents in border towns like El Paso, Texas and Nogales, Sonora, often make the short drive to the Mexican side for basic medical needs and prescription medications that are much costlier in the U.S. Some businesses even offer shuttle services from the Phoenix area to Los Algodones, a nearly 200-mile ride.

Going abroad for cheaper health care is nothing new. Americans have been doing it for years, for everything from elective, cosmetic procedures to major, life-saving surgery.

Matthew Messina, a practicing dentist and consumer adviser on behalf of the American Dental Association, said Americans who visit dentists in foreign countries should do a lot of research before they go.

Different countries use different types of equipment, and some items, such as implants, may not have warranties. Malpractice lawsuits may not be an option.

Dentists in Los Algodones say they attend less school than their counterparts in U.S. but spend more time practicing clinical work. They say they practice the same safety standards as American dentists and have offices that are just as clean.

José Obed Zuñiga has been a dentist in Los Algodones for a decade and found business was so good he opened his own shop about two years ago.

"Everything, the quality, is very similar to the United States," Zuñiga said. "We see the work from the United States, and it's very competitive."

Aiti Gutierrez left her home in the state of Tamaulipas, Mexico, 1,400 miles away, to practice in a Los Algodones office that has four patient rooms and a lobby with a water-stacked mini-fridge. In the busy season, she sees about a dozen patients a day, and 12-hour work days aren't unusual.

"They like to feel comfortable and that they're safe," Gutierrez said of her clients.

© 2015 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.
How in the world could the cost be that much different? I guess those 50K lion hunts is where that extra money is needed.

Well there's your problem.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

I am starting to think even as a healthcare professional that having certain medical services covered outside the U.S. doesn't seem like a bad idea.

 

[Dentist]

Will my Mexican dentist undress me and poop on me? If not, I'm out.

Even if they did offer that level of excellent service, do you really want Mexican poop on your chest? I mean with that diet? Gross

 

[Dentist]

If I didn't have malpractice insurance hanging over my head, didn't have osha, hippa, etc over me, and didn't have to worry about standing behind my work and felt ok about Mexican labs I could really cut some costs down.

I understand why people do this and expect it to continue growing.

And there is plenty of bad dental work in the USA as well as Mexico.

But from my personal 14 years of experience, the next time I see good Mexican dental work will be the first. And I've seen quite a bit

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I've been at MEDCAPS in Africa (they have them in Central and South America too), where people came in and needed 10 to ALL their teeth pulled. I lived in Europe thinking their dental care would be similar to ours, it most certainly IS NOT. Even in Germany it's terrible. I think health care in Europe is good but not dental, it's bad.

You get what you pay for with dentistry IMO, and what you pay in the U.S although ridiculous at times (crowns for example), it's quality work. That #### would hold for three years with a German dentist.

 

[GROOT]

If I didn't have malpractice insurance hanging over my head, didn't have osha, hippa, etc over me, and didn't have to worry about standing behind my work and felt ok about Mexican labs I could really cut some costs down.

I understand why people do this and expect it to continue growing.

And there is plenty of bad dental work in the USA as well as Mexico.

But from my personal 14 years of experience, the next time I see good Mexican dental work will be the first. And I've seen quite a bit

They do the worst endo on planet earth

 

[Short Corner]

I've been at MEDCAPS in Africa (they have them in Central and South America too), where people came in and needed 10 to ALL their teeth pulled. I lived in Europe thinking their dental care would be similar to ours, it most certainly IS NOT. Even in Germany it's terrible. I think health care in Europe is good but not dental, it's bad.

You get what you pay for with dentistry IMO, and what you pay in the U.S although ridiculous at times (crowns for example), it's quality work. That #### would hold for three years with a German dentist.

No complaints about my guy here. Actually had a gold crown I got in the states replaced with a porcelain one. Several people I know go to Turkey to get more expensive work done.

 

[rockaction]

I've been at MEDCAPS in Africa (they have them in Central and South America too), where people came in and needed 10 to ALL their teeth pulled. I lived in Europe thinking their dental care would be similar to ours, it most certainly IS NOT. Even in Germany it's terrible. I think health care in Europe is good but not dental, it's bad.

You get what you pay for with dentistry IMO, and what you pay in the U.S although ridiculous at times (crowns for example), it's quality work. That #### would hold for three years with a German dentist.

Interesting. I'm not kidding, I would have considered dental tourism, but my freakin' dentist is so damn good. I have #### gum health and dental health, for whatever reason. But I'm getting charged $2700 a crown now in the Northeast. I need two crowns. Any suggestions? That seems a little much these days.

 

[Hang 10]

Yeah, but how good a shot is this Messican dentist?

 

[jon_mx]

Will my Mexican dentist undress me and poop on me? If not, I'm out.

Even if they did offer that level of excellent service, do you really want Mexican poop on your chest? I mean with that diet? Gross

I hear there is celantro in their poop. American poop is well regulated against that kind of crap.

 

[Rayderr]

He was told the extensive dental work he needed - his teeth needed to be raised and he needed a crown on every molar - would cost $65,000 at a private dentist. He looked for lower rates, finding a dental school where the work was less expensive because it was performed by students. But it still cost $35,000.

Is there a reason why in this situation where you need a crown on every molar one wouldn't just go to dentures, either removable or implanted?

 

[NutterButter]

I've been at MEDCAPS in Africa (they have them in Central and South America too), where people came in and needed 10 to ALL their teeth pulled. I lived in Europe thinking their dental care would be similar to ours, it most certainly IS NOT. Even in Germany it's terrible. I think health care in Europe is good but not dental, it's bad.

You get what you pay for with dentistry IMO, and what you pay in the U.S although ridiculous at times (crowns for example), it's quality work. That #### would hold for three years with a German dentist.

Interesting. I'm not kidding, I would have considered dental tourism, but my freakin' dentist is so damn good. I have #### gum health and dental health, for whatever reason. But I'm getting charged $2700 a crown now in the Northeast. I need two crowns. Any suggestions? That seems a little much these days.

That's really high. I pay 1k per for porcelain with 50% of that covered by insurance.

 

[Dentist]

I've been at MEDCAPS in Africa (they have them in Central and South America too), where people came in and needed 10 to ALL their teeth pulled. I lived in Europe thinking their dental care would be similar to ours, it most certainly IS NOT. Even in Germany it's terrible. I think health care in Europe is good but not dental, it's bad.

You get what you pay for with dentistry IMO, and what you pay in the U.S although ridiculous at times (crowns for example), it's quality work. That #### would hold for three years with a German dentist.

Interesting. I'm not kidding, I would have considered dental tourism, but my freakin' dentist is so damn good. I have #### gum health and dental health, for whatever reason. But I'm getting charged $2700 a crown now in the Northeast. I need two crowns. Any suggestions? That seems a little much these days.

That's really high. I pay 1k per for porcelain with 50% of that covered by insurance.

Wow I wish I could charge that much. It's under 1k in kc

 

[Dentist]

If I didn't have malpractice insurance hanging over my head, didn't have osha, hippa, etc over me, and didn't have to worry about standing behind my work and felt ok about Mexican labs I could really cut some costs down.

I understand why people do this and expect it to continue growing.

And there is plenty of bad dental work in the USA as well as Mexico.

But from my personal 14 years of experience, the next time I see good Mexican dental work will be the first. And I've seen quite a bit

They do the worst endo on planet earth

I've seen crowns on top of pulps extirpated with no filler. Laughable

 

[Dentist]

I've been at MEDCAPS in Africa (they have them in Central and South America too), where people came in and needed 10 to ALL their teeth pulled. I lived in Europe thinking their dental care would be similar to ours, it most certainly IS NOT. Even in Germany it's terrible. I think health care in Europe is good but not dental, it's bad.

You get what you pay for with dentistry IMO, and what you pay in the U.S although ridiculous at times (crowns for example), it's quality work. That #### would hold for three years with a German dentist.

No complaints about my guy here. Actually had a gold crown I got in the states replaced with a porcelain one. Several people I know go to Turkey to get more expensive work done.

Eastern Europe has some really high quality stuff coming out of it.

And equally there is terrible work in usa, especially at chains

 

[BowieMercs]

I've been at MEDCAPS in Africa (they have them in Central and South America too), where people came in and needed 10 to ALL their teeth pulled. I lived in Europe thinking their dental care would be similar to ours, it most certainly IS NOT. Even in Germany it's terrible. I think health care in Europe is good but not dental, it's bad.

You get what you pay for with dentistry IMO, and what you pay in the U.S although ridiculous at times (crowns for example), it's quality work. That #### would hold for three years with a German dentist.

Interesting. I'm not kidding, I would have considered dental tourism, but my freakin' dentist is so damn good. I have #### gum health and dental health, for whatever reason. But I'm getting charged $2700 a crown now in the Northeast. I need two crowns. Any suggestions? That seems a little much these days.

That's really high. I pay 1k per for porcelain with 50% of that covered by insurance.

Go with the gold crown. Its stronger (especially for molars which nobody is likely to see anyway), usually cheaper & shows you got game if its visible.

 

[Dentist]

I've been at MEDCAPS in Africa (they have them in Central and South America too), where people came in and needed 10 to ALL their teeth pulled. I lived in Europe thinking their dental care would be similar to ours, it most certainly IS NOT. Even in Germany it's terrible. I think health care in Europe is good but not dental, it's bad.

You get what you pay for with dentistry IMO, and what you pay in the U.S although ridiculous at times (crowns for example), it's quality work. That #### would hold for three years with a German dentist.

Interesting. I'm not kidding, I would have considered dental tourism, but my freakin' dentist is so damn good. I have #### gum health and dental health, for whatever reason. But I'm getting charged $2700 a crown now in the Northeast. I need two crowns. Any suggestions? That seems a little much these days.

That's really high. I pay 1k per for porcelain with 50% of that covered by insurance.

Go with the gold crown. Its stronger (especially for molars which nobody is likely to see anyway), usually cheaper & shows you got game if its visible.

Gold is an excellent, highly biocompatible material.

To save a little money and still have something super strong there is a silver based semi-precious metal that also has excellent longevity.

The newer Zirconia Oxide white porcelain restorations though are gaining a lot of traction and are ridiculously strong... If the longevity studies continue to support it, this material may eliminate many of the metal based restorations in dentistry. It's the worst looking porcelain, but from what i've found people would still have a poor looking porcelain restoration than a great looking gold or silver one.

Basically these days the only all-metal restorations i'm doing are on old-timers with absolutely no vanity or hipsters that want "old school" classic dentistry

 

[Kanil]

I'm wondering how that compares to say a loaf of bread.

 

[[icon]]

Eastern Europe has some really high quality stuff coming out of it.

And equally there is terrible work in usa, especially at chains

Yup. We work with a ton of the chains (like Clear choice) and it's insane how little they care about long term patient health. They sell out all components to the lowest bidder, regardless of quality. We provided frameworks for a lot of their centers for a while, but their now exclusive deal with Glidewell has corporate mandating all bars be purchased through them.

The problem is, due to being a bidding war, the frames are garbage. Half-dozen or so centers still tried to use us to provide better quality to patients, but were getting threats from corporate. I would never ever go to a dental chain/center.

I'd say 20-25% of the dentists we work with can't even take basic impressions and send in model work that looks like it's done by a 3yr old... which results in ill fitting product (at best). Many of them rig them by cutting/welding the bad frames to make it work. Shady ####.

 

[eoMMan]

Has anyone watched that Botched show?

So many of the surgeries that they have to correct are situations where the patient went to Tijuana or somewhere else in Mexico originally in order to save a buck. Some of the stories they come back with make you cringe.

It's just not worth it.

 

[lombardi]

My wife and I did this. I have a thread on here about some of our experience.

It was a pretty difficult decision but the amount of work required was just so beyond our means. We have kids approaching college age and in mind it really did come down to our teeth or our kids education. I understand people's concerns and I didn't go into it blindly (I researched it for over a year before going through with it). I honestly didn't see another alternative.

We lived in our RV at the time and we were out west so we spent a few weeks in Yuma, AZ and drove 10 minutes to the border, parked our car in the U.S., and then walked over. I tried out 4 different dentists before settling on one for the bulk of our work. My wife had more work than me but between us we spent about 7 weeks there going over a few times a week. My wife needed some healing before continuing on with some of the reconstructive work, they suggested at least a few months. We ended up waiting a year but just went back two months ago for another week to finish.

In the end, the total for both of us was just about $10k between the two trips (including airfare, hotel, car rental for the second trip because we are no longer in the RV). According to our US dentist's estimate my wife alone was in the $30k+ range for treatment and that wasn't everything. As work went on in MX there were some other problems encountered that would have pushed that up quite a bit. Based on her prices and what I ended up needing done I was probably in the $10k range US. All told I would guess at least $50k had we stayed in the US, definitely no lower.

I could write a much longer post on this but just some overall observations.

If you consider going this route you will definitely save money but there is definitely risk involved. I saw some SERIOUSLY bad dental work down there. Los Algodones is full of dentists, optometrists, and pharmacies. You meet people in the border lines, at the campground, in the town. You hear some horror stories. I was in one office that scared me to death when I was investigating which dentist to use. Do your research, pick someone with tons of verifiable recommendations (I actually contacted people from forums/articles), and make sure they've been around a long time. Picking the right dentist down there is absolutely vital. The cheapest one is not the one you want. We actually went with someone on the more expensive end for Mexican dentistry. That $10k could have been maybe $7k but that $3k savings brings you to a very scary place.

They do a lot more work in a much shorter time that in the US. I can't stress this enough. There is advantage and disadvantage. Our dental group had everyone in house. The regular dentists, periodontists, the root canal and reconstructive specialists were different. Getting several things done in a day is normal. This is great if you have only a little time but it means more time in the chair in a day, it can be pretty exhausting. More importantly some dental work shouldn't be done so quick, your gums need time to heal, swelling to go down, etc.. Our particular dentist really extended our time in Yuma because they just didn't want to do some of the work until swelling reduced, we healed, etc.. Our two week plan ended up taking almost two months mostly for this reason. Saying this, we met lots of people who had gotten "one day implants" in other dental offices. That's absolutely insane and the results are predictable. On our trip back a couple months ago we met two different people who had that done that were back with problems. Again, be careful with the dentist you pick. Ours refused to rush and it was almost frustrating at times but we understood and were glad they made us wait between appointments and take it slower because in the long run it was best. I'm positive I could have found someone to knock it all out quicker and cheaper but again the results would have been less than desirable.

The end results have been great. Years and years of anxiety, fear, and guilt about my mouth, not providing well enough to help my wife suffering the same things was just horrible. People with good dental health probably don't understand the crushing weight of feeling like you have a timebomb in your mouth and no means to fix it, but those in the situation will understand. That is all gone. All of the major problems are fixed, our teeth feel great. My wife had a bunch of crowns and bridges and they all look really great. The quality of life and absence of constant stress can't be expressed enough. Now I would have that same feeling had I used a US dentist but I just couldn't afford it.

On the other side. We don't really know yet. The first treatment was over a year ago now and the last treatment only a couple of months. Talk to me in 5 years or 10 years and I'll give you the real answer. Part of my research was trying to find people who had work done a long time ago. I found a few people who had been going to this dentist for over a decade and were still very happy with their care, no problems. But the concern is still there. Is this work really quality enough to endure? Will I have any longer term health issues because of sub-part materials? It IS Mexico and you can never forget that. I feel pretty good about the professionalism, hygiene, and skill of everyone who worked with us but I don't know what goes on in the labs or behind the scenes. I'm sure there is bad dentistry in the US too but if you don't think going to Mexico doesn't increase the risk of experiencing it by a factor of 10 you're kidding yourself. You need to be careful and assume that there is risk.

If anyone has any specific questions you can ask them or if you want more detailed info you can PM me.

 

[Dentist]

He was told the extensive dental work he needed - his teeth needed to be raised and he needed a crown on every molar - would cost $65,000 at a private dentist. He looked for lower rates, finding a dental school where the work was less expensive because it was performed by students. But it still cost $35,000.

Is there a reason why in this situation where you need a crown on every molar one wouldn't just go to dentures, either removable or implanted?

This is a legitimate and good question.

The person in question could clearly have chosen a lesser expensive option by moving to dentures.

But going from teeth to dentures is like trading in your car for a skateboard. The chewing power just sucks.. even with implants you've basically just taken your skateboard and turned it into a decent bicycle.

I could show you tons of photos of extreme wear that people have done to their teeth via bruxism (grinding) or acid erosion, or a combination of both... Years of neglect and horrible habits. And if you want your teeth after that type of obliteration you are darn near into crowning them all... a service so few can afford that I'd have to pitch 100 of those cases to get 1 person who wanted to move forward with it.. and frankly pitching 100 of them would mean 90 of those patients would literally RUN out of the office looking to post a horrible review of me on Yelp or google for being a "salesman". So very very few dentists even tell people who need this type of service that they do need it.

It's one of the tougher parts of health care really... in absence of any symptoms many people assume they are fine and thus even with a well intended recommendation complete with high resolution photography to prove your point... it's often seen as a cash grab. So I'd say a huge number of dentists will see your problem and simply choose not to tell you about it and give you the A okay, rather than try to tell you about something that you have no perceived need for and could begin an uncomfortable conversation.

 

[Dentist]

Eastern Europe has some really high quality stuff coming out of it.

And equally there is terrible work in usa, especially at chains

Yup. We work with a ton of the chains (like Clear choice) and it's insane how little they care about long term patient health. They sell out all components to the lowest bidder, regardless of quality. We provided frameworks for a lot of their centers for a while, but their now exclusive deal with Glidewell has corporate mandating all bars be purchased through them.

The problem is, due to being a bidding war, the frames are garbage. Half-dozen or so centers still tried to use us to provide better quality to patients, but were getting threats from corporate. I would never ever go to a dental chain/center.

I'd say 20-25% of the dentists we work with can't even take basic impressions and send in model work that looks like it's done by a 3yr old... which results in ill fitting product (at best). Many of them rig them by cutting/welding the bad frames to make it work. Shady ####.

what aspect of dentistry are you working in again? is it on the frame construction end for these higher end implant retained dentures?

 

[CBusAlex]

hipsters that want "old school" classic dentistry

Wait, what? Is this really a thing? This can't be a thing.

 

[gruecd]

My fiancée is Polish. We were there for 3 weeks in July, and while we were there she had a bunch of routine medical/dental appointments. It's ridiculous how cheap everything was relative to what we pay here.

 

[[icon]]

Eastern Europe has some really high quality stuff coming out of it.

And equally there is terrible work in usa, especially at chains

Yup. We work with a ton of the chains (like Clear choice) and it's insane how little they care about long term patient health. They sell out all components to the lowest bidder, regardless of quality. We provided frameworks for a lot of their centers for a while, but their now exclusive deal with Glidewell has corporate mandating all bars be purchased through them.

The problem is, due to being a bidding war, the frames are garbage. Half-dozen or so centers still tried to use us to provide better quality to patients, but were getting threats from corporate. I would never ever go to a dental chain/center.

I'd say 20-25% of the dentists we work with can't even take basic impressions and send in model work that looks like it's done by a 3yr old... which results in ill fitting product (at best). Many of them rig them by cutting/welding the bad frames to make it work. Shady ####.

what aspect of dentistry are you working in again? is it on the frame construction end for these higher end implant retained dentures?

Yep. Fixed-Hybrid Ti Frames, Individual crown on Ti Frame, and Monolithic PMMA/ZIrconia overlay on Ti framework stuff. Mostly full arch but some partials. All implant-retained. We're expanding into handling some labwork now due to necessity... too much shoddy work being done out there.

 

[Spin]

My wife and I did this. I have a thread on here about some of our experience.

It was a pretty difficult decision but the amount of work required was just so beyond our means. We have kids approaching college age and in mind it really did come down to our teeth or our kids education. I understand people's concerns and I didn't go into it blindly (I researched it for over a year before going through with it). I honestly didn't see another alternative.

We lived in our RV at the time and we were out west so we spent a few weeks in Yuma, AZ and drove 10 minutes to the border, parked our car in the U.S., and then walked over. I tried out 4 different dentists before settling on one for the bulk of our work. My wife had more work than me but between us we spent about 7 weeks there going over a few times a week. My wife needed some healing before continuing on with some of the reconstructive work, they suggested at least a few months. We ended up waiting a year but just went back two months ago for another week to finish.

In the end, the total for both of us was just about $10k between the two trips (including airfare, hotel, car rental for the second trip because we are no longer in the RV). According to our US dentist's estimate my wife alone was in the $30k+ range for treatment and that wasn't everything. As work went on in MX there were some other problems encountered that would have pushed that up quite a bit. Based on her prices and what I ended up needing done I was probably in the $10k range US. All told I would guess at least $50k had we stayed in the US, definitely no lower.

I could write a much longer post on this but just some overall observations.

If you consider going this route you will definitely save money but there is definitely risk involved. I saw some SERIOUSLY bad dental work down there. Los Algodones is full of dentists, optometrists, and pharmacies. You meet people in the border lines, at the campground, in the town. You hear some horror stories. I was in one office that scared me to death when I was investigating which dentist to use. Do your research, pick someone with tons of verifiable recommendations (I actually contacted people from forums/articles), and make sure they've been around a long time. Picking the right dentist down there is absolutely vital. The cheapest one is not the one you want. We actually went with someone on the more expensive end for Mexican dentistry. That $10k could have been maybe $7k but that $3k savings brings you to a very scary place.

They do a lot more work in a much shorter time that in the US. I can't stress this enough. There is advantage and disadvantage. Our dental group had everyone in house. The regular dentists, periodontists, the root canal and reconstructive specialists were different. Getting several things done in a day is normal. This is great if you have only a little time but it means more time in the chair in a day, it can be pretty exhausting. More importantly some dental work shouldn't be done so quick, your gums need time to heal, swelling to go down, etc.. Our particular dentist really extended our time in Yuma because they just didn't want to do some of the work until swelling reduced, we healed, etc.. Our two week plan ended up taking almost two months mostly for this reason. Saying this, we met lots of people who had gotten "one day implants" in other dental offices. That's absolutely insane and the results are predictable. On our trip back a couple months ago we met two different people who had that done that were back with problems. Again, be careful with the dentist you pick. Ours refused to rush and it was almost frustrating at times but we understood and were glad they made us wait between appointments and take it slower because in the long run it was best. I'm positive I could have found someone to knock it all out quicker and cheaper but again the results would have been less than desirable.

The end results have been great. Years and years of anxiety, fear, and guilt about my mouth, not providing well enough to help my wife suffering the same things was just horrible. People with good dental health probably don't understand the crushing weight of feeling like you have a timebomb in your mouth and no means to fix it, but those in the situation will understand. That is all gone. All of the major problems are fixed, our teeth feel great. My wife had a bunch of crowns and bridges and they all look really great. The quality of life and absence of constant stress can't be expressed enough. Now I would have that same feeling had I used a US dentist but I just couldn't afford it.

On the other side. We don't really know yet. The first treatment was over a year ago now and the last treatment only a couple of months. Talk to me in 5 years or 10 years and I'll give you the real answer. Part of my research was trying to find people who had work done a long time ago. I found a few people who had been going to this dentist for over a decade and were still very happy with their care, no problems. But the concern is still there. Is this work really quality enough to endure? Will I have any longer term health issues because of sub-part materials? It IS Mexico and you can never forget that. I feel pretty good about the professionalism, hygiene, and skill of everyone who worked with us but I don't know what goes on in the labs or behind the scenes. I'm sure there is bad dentistry in the US too but if you don't think going to Mexico doesn't increase the risk of experiencing it by a factor of 10 you're kidding yourself. You need to be careful and assume that there is risk.

If anyone has any specific questions you can ask them or if you want more detailed info you can PM me.

It'd be interesting to have Dentist provide a review on the work done.

 

[Dentist]

It'd be interesting to have Dentist provide a review on the work done.

It is sometimes tough to evaluate work that is freshly done.. sometimes it's easy though. But a lot of what I could never assess is what types of materials went into it.

Like the lab work.. are they sending that over to China?

I can get a nice crown made at a lab here that's awesome for $200 and the materials are all going to be government regulated and approved. Or I can get a crown made for $40 in India or China and I have no idea WTF they are putting in there... and you mr. patient might not notice a difference especially in the near term.

If I'm profit focused, I want to get you into that Chinese crown.. If i'm more patient focused I want what's best for you and am going to get you that $200 crown.

Same with Root Canals.. I can buy the $150 kit of root canal files made with high standards in the USA... or I can go on E-bay and get a very similar looking pack of files for $14 that was made in Switzerland.... what would you do?

Good work can fail, bad work can fail... but in many ways it's like fantasy football.. a guy that has a horrible draft can win, or a guy with a great draft can win.... but over the long haul the guy with the great draft is probably going to win more times than the bad draft guy.

Dentistry already has plenty of conflict of interest issues as it is... You know and I know that if I recommend something and you say yes to that that I'm going to get paid some percentage for that work. I'm either ethical and trustworthy and only recommend things in your best interest.. or I'm not.

But add in a corporate entity putting pressure on the dentists they hire and the conflict of interest gets magnified by 10X.

Add in a dentist in great debt from school and who lives above his means and takes exotic hunting trips to kill lions and it doubles again.

I really don't want to do anything the patient doesn't truly need because frankly I really don't want to do the work because i'm lazy and don't need the money.... and even with that "do this, don't do this, I don't care" type of attitude I've still had people accuse me of overtreatment to extract money from them... brutal.

 

[[icon]]

I really don't want to do anything the patient doesn't truly need because frankly I really don't want to do the work because i'm lazy and don't need the money.... and even with that "do this, don't do this, I don't care" type of attitude I've still had people accuse me of overtreatment to extract money from them... brutal.

That's crazy. I think people generally just don't think about dental care until it's too late... or just seem to think they can just brush their teeth, floss once a week and theyll just "be there" forever. One of the first things I learned in this industry is how expensive neglect can become...

 

[rockaction]

I never do that, but it seems appropriate for this thread. I have awful bruxism and acid erosion. I was going to write something about both Eastern European tourism and the Brits and chains but y'all beat me to it. Let it be said that those chains in America -- they suck. I went for a root canal on an emergency before a wedding. Not only did they get the wrong tooth -- they told me two teeth needed a root and were going to charge me $5000 -- they were smacking all of my teeth with a dentistry tool and completely aggravated the injury. I will never go to a chain again, even on a Saturday before a wedding, unless I'm begging for an Oxy scrip, which I did indeed get.

 

[lombardi]

I really don't want to do anything the patient doesn't truly need because frankly I really don't want to do the work because i'm lazy and don't need the money.... and even with that "do this, don't do this, I don't care" type of attitude I've still had people accuse me of overtreatment to extract money from them... brutal.

That's crazy. I think people generally just don't think about dental care until it's too late... or just seem to think they can just brush their teeth, floss once a week and theyll just "be there" forever. One of the first things I learned in this industry is how expensive neglect can become...

I know my issues were definitely neglect. My parents never brought me to the dentist. My mother had such an insane fear of dentistry that she couldn't even talk about it without getting physically uncomfortable and basically walking away form the conversation. My first trip to the dentist was when I think I was 16, I chipped a tooth on a water slide. He fixed it and did some cavities but we couldn't afford everything he wanted to fix. Then as I grew older the problems got worse and I would get things done now and again but could never keep up with the expense. I tried a dental plan/group thing for a while but they kept fixing things wrong. I eventually ended up going to USC dental school and getting some really bad teeth pulled.

Then you're in a spot where you're so embarrassed by your mouth and depressed about how much it's going to cost knowing you can't afford it that you avoid the dentist completely until pain forces you in for some emergency treatment. Until Mexico this was basically the way we lived. I actually had decent genetics and my teeth, while bad, weren't too bad. I also have no fear of the dentist (I actually enjoy it... candybar!!!). So it wasn't as bad for me. My wife's parents both lost their teeth young and she has a crippling fear of the dentist so it was a much bigger deal for her. The best thing that came out of this though is that my wife spent so much time there, and they were so patient with her, that her fear of the dentist is pretty much gone.

From this point forward it makes no sense to go to MX for basic maintenance or a single cavity or root canal or something so we're going to find a dentist locally.

Also, our kids have gone to the dentist from the time they were supposed to (not even sure what age that was) and they NEVER miss. We don't ever want them to experience what we did. My son has a couple fillings next week.

 

[(HULK)]

My fiancée is Polish. We were there for 3 weeks in July, and while we were there she had a bunch of routine medical/dental appointments. It's ridiculous how cheap everything was relative to what we pay here.

I know a girl who is Polish and went to her homeland for breast implants. Cost was about 20% what it would've been here, and they look great.

 

[Dentist]

I really don't want to do anything the patient doesn't truly need because frankly I really don't want to do the work because i'm lazy and don't need the money.... and even with that "do this, don't do this, I don't care" type of attitude I've still had people accuse me of overtreatment to extract money from them... brutal.

That's crazy. I think people generally just don't think about dental care until it's too late... or just seem to think they can just brush their teeth, floss once a week and theyll just "be there" forever. One of the first things I learned in this industry is how expensive neglect can become...

I know my issues were definitely neglect. My parents never brought me to the dentist. My mother had such an insane fear of dentistry that she couldn't even talk about it without getting physically uncomfortable and basically walking away form the conversation. My first trip to the dentist was when I think I was 16, I chipped a tooth on a water slide. He fixed it and did some cavities but we couldn't afford everything he wanted to fix. Then as I grew older the problems got worse and I would get things done now and again but could never keep up with the expense. I tried a dental plan/group thing for a while but they kept fixing things wrong. I eventually ended up going to USC dental school and getting some really bad teeth pulled.

Then you're in a spot where you're so embarrassed by your mouth and depressed about how much it's going to cost knowing you can't afford it that you avoid the dentist completely until pain forces you in for some emergency treatment. Until Mexico this was basically the way we lived. I actually had decent genetics and my teeth, while bad, weren't too bad. I also have no fear of the dentist (I actually enjoy it... candybar!!!). So it wasn't as bad for me. My wife's parents both lost their teeth young and she has a crippling fear of the dentist so it was a much bigger deal for her. The best thing that came out of this though is that my wife spent so much time there, and they were so patient with her, that her fear of the dentist is pretty much gone.

From this point forward it makes no sense to go to MX for basic maintenance or a single cavity or root canal or something so we're going to find a dentist locally.

Also, our kids have gone to the dentist from the time they were supposed to (not even sure what age that was) and they NEVER miss. We don't ever want them to experience what we did. My son has a couple fillings next week.

I see your story happen all of the time. You see a parent with fear, then the child is fearful... then the money is always a problem.. and people that only come to the dentist when they are in pain or have a problem basically never have a good experience so then they hate coming which exacerbates the problem and the expense.

Almost all dental disease is so easily preventable... don't smoke, brush, do something to clean in between your tooth, don't eat too much sugar, get your teeth cleaned 1-2X a year.

In a modern society you'd think the only thing I'd ever get to do as a dentist is preventative work, and then deal with things like congenital defects or trauma.

But thankfully Coke, Pepsi, Hershey, Red Bull, Marlboro, Gatorade, Vitamin Water, Little Debbie, and Tic Tac amongst others are so good at marketing and taking people's money that there is an absolutely ENDLESS amount of problems to treat.

The only limit in dentistry are people's wallets, horrific insurance plans and their fears. There will never be a shortage of decay or periodontal disease.

$1000-2000 dental insurance maximums? laughable. It shouldn't even be called insurance. Insurance is to keep you from going broke.. which is why auto liability doesn't pay for 2 oil changes a year and a tire rotation.... but if you blast someone's lamborghini in the rear they'll take care of the 100K to fix it.

Dental pays for the oil changes and tire rotation, but if you need a lot taken care of? Forget it. Couple that with the fact that there are 100 different ways to fix up a wrecked mouth with highly variable degrees of cost.... and all "insurance" is going to pay for is the cheapest route.

 

[Dentist]

I never do that, but it seems appropriate for this thread. I have awful bruxism and acid erosion. I was going to write something about both Eastern European tourism and the Brits and chains but y'all beat me to it. Let it be said that those chains in America -- they suck. I went for a root canal on an emergency before a wedding. Not only did they get the wrong tooth -- they told me two teeth needed a root and were going to charge me $5000 -- they were smacking all of my teeth with a dentistry tool and completely aggravated the injury. I will never go to a chain again, even on a Saturday before a wedding, unless I'm begging for an Oxy scrip, which I did indeed get.

The chains do in general suck massive balls.

But they will accept to be in network for your horrible insurance plan, probably do have more convenient hours, and probably do have a better payment plan system.

Cheap dentistry sells like freakin' hot cakes.... and convenience and price often trump quality and a positive customer service experience... not to mention someone who stands behind their work.

A comfort dental went in a mile from me about 6 years ago.... when they came to town I went to their lunch and learn as a prospective employee because they were offering a salary that was over double what I make.

I went to their facilities in Colorado and everything... i was excited about all the money I could make.

Then I saw what they were providing service wise.... if that's what it took to be rich I just didn't want to participate. I needed to be able to sleep at night knowing that I'd done the best work I knew how. I get depressed when my best efforts fail for the person.. and often bend over backwards to compensate the person with a remake or at least a financial refund if I can't fix what didn't work.

The people that work in those chains become so into the business side of things that the fact that you are dealing with a living breathing person who deserves your best efforts goes by the wayside. But those chains get 10X the number of patients in and out of the door that I do... oh well.

 

[lombardi]

I really don't want to do anything the patient doesn't truly need because frankly I really don't want to do the work because i'm lazy and don't need the money.... and even with that "do this, don't do this, I don't care" type of attitude I've still had people accuse me of overtreatment to extract money from them... brutal.

That's crazy. I think people generally just don't think about dental care until it's too late... or just seem to think they can just brush their teeth, floss once a week and theyll just "be there" forever. One of the first things I learned in this industry is how expensive neglect can become...

I know my issues were definitely neglect. My parents never brought me to the dentist. My mother had such an insane fear of dentistry that she couldn't even talk about it without getting physically uncomfortable and basically walking away form the conversation. My first trip to the dentist was when I think I was 16, I chipped a tooth on a water slide. He fixed it and did some cavities but we couldn't afford everything he wanted to fix. Then as I grew older the problems got worse and I would get things done now and again but could never keep up with the expense. I tried a dental plan/group thing for a while but they kept fixing things wrong. I eventually ended up going to USC dental school and getting some really bad teeth pulled.

Then you're in a spot where you're so embarrassed by your mouth and depressed about how much it's going to cost knowing you can't afford it that you avoid the dentist completely until pain forces you in for some emergency treatment. Until Mexico this was basically the way we lived. I actually had decent genetics and my teeth, while bad, weren't too bad. I also have no fear of the dentist (I actually enjoy it... candybar!!!). So it wasn't as bad for me. My wife's parents both lost their teeth young and she has a crippling fear of the dentist so it was a much bigger deal for her. The best thing that came out of this though is that my wife spent so much time there, and they were so patient with her, that her fear of the dentist is pretty much gone.

From this point forward it makes no sense to go to MX for basic maintenance or a single cavity or root canal or something so we're going to find a dentist locally.

Also, our kids have gone to the dentist from the time they were supposed to (not even sure what age that was) and they NEVER miss. We don't ever want them to experience what we did. My son has a couple fillings next week.

I see your story happen all of the time. You see a parent with fear, then the child is fearful... then the money is always a problem.. and people that only come to the dentist when they are in pain or have a problem basically never have a good experience so then they hate coming which exacerbates the problem and the expense.

Almost all dental disease is so easily preventable... don't smoke, brush, do something to clean in between your tooth, don't eat too much sugar, get your teeth cleaned 1-2X a year.

In a modern society you'd think the only thing I'd ever get to do as a dentist is preventative work, and then deal with things like congenital defects or trauma.

But thankfully Coke, Pepsi, Hershey, Red Bull, Marlboro, Gatorade, Vitamin Water, Little Debbie, and Tic Tac amongst others are so good at marketing and taking people's money that there is an absolutely ENDLESS amount of problems to treat.

The only limit in dentistry are people's wallets, horrific insurance plans and their fears. There will never be a shortage of decay or periodontal disease.

$1000-2000 dental insurance maximums? laughable. It shouldn't even be called insurance. Insurance is to keep you from going broke.. which is why auto liability doesn't pay for 2 oil changes a year and a tire rotation.... but if you blast someone's lamborghini in the rear they'll take care of the 100K to fix it.

Dental pays for the oil changes and tire rotation, but if you need a lot taken care of? Forget it. Couple that with the fact that there are 100 different ways to fix up a wrecked mouth with highly variable degrees of cost.... and all "insurance" is going to pay for is the cheapest route.

I looked for insurance years ago, like you said, no such thing. The deductibles cover a half a crown. Even being willing to pay a high premium actual dental insurance doesn't really exist, they're mostly just price plans that cover maybe one basic procedure and then provide free cleanings. If you really read them you're barely make back your premium before you hit the yearly cap so if you use it you save a few hundred bucks, if you don't use it you lose. Terrible gamble.

I guess the idea is that nobody will buy dental insurance except for people who need it, from an actuary standpoint it's a big loser. Plus., considering how difficult medical insurance companies are getting with declaring things elective or not I can't imagine how bad those appeals would be for dental care where more than half of it is probably technically elective compared to pulling out a tooth.

 

[Dentist]

I looked for insurance years ago, like you said, no such thing. The deductibles cover a half a crown. Even being willing to pay a high premium actual dental insurance doesn't really exist, they're mostly just price plans that cover maybe one basic procedure and then provide free cleanings. If you really read them you're barely make back your premium before you hit the yearly cap so if you use it you save a few hundred bucks, if you don't use it you lose. Terrible gamble.

I guess the idea is that nobody will buy dental insurance except for people who need it, from an actuary standpoint it's a big loser. Plus., considering how difficult medical insurance companies are getting with declaring things elective or not I can't imagine how bad those appeals would be for dental care where more than half of it is probably technically elective compared to pulling out a tooth.

Correct, it's an actuarial nightmare, there are too many ways to correct a problem based on people's wants/needs (very little standardization) and widely varying costs.

And since biologically people can survive without a tooth... or multiple teeth... they are essentially considered elective.

As I've learned more and more about business over the years I've realized what an odd business I'm in... especially relative to the rest of health care.

Ultimately dentistry mirrors society. people that have more money have better cars, better food, better teeth.. people without money have worse of all those things.

But man... prevention is relatively inexpensive.. and people just won't do it.

 

[jwb]

I looked for insurance years ago, like you said, no such thing. The deductibles cover a half a crown. Even being willing to pay a high premium actual dental insurance doesn't really exist, they're mostly just price plans that cover maybe one basic procedure and then provide free cleanings. If you really read them you're barely make back your premium before you hit the yearly cap so if you use it you save a few hundred bucks, if you don't use it you lose. Terrible gamble.

I guess the idea is that nobody will buy dental insurance except for people who need it, from an actuary standpoint it's a big loser. Plus., considering how difficult medical insurance companies are getting with declaring things elective or not I can't imagine how bad those appeals would be for dental care where more than half of it is probably technically elective compared to pulling out a tooth.

Correct, it's an actuarial nightmare, there are too many ways to correct a problem based on people's wants/needs (very little standardization) and widely varying costs.

And since biologically people can survive without a tooth... or multiple teeth... they are essentially considered elective.

As I've learned more and more about business over the years I've realized what an odd business I'm in... especially relative to the rest of health care.

Ultimately dentistry mirrors society. people that have more money have better cars, better food, better teeth.. people without money have worse of all those things.

But man... prevention is relatively inexpensive.. and people just won't do it.

The thing w/ prevention is the fact it's so easy to gloss over, especially when you are younger. Quick brush to freshen your mouth, and done. Plus, you never really "see" results - best case scenario is nothing happens to your teeth. For many of us, you only start to understand when you are older.

I wish I took better care of my teeth when I was young. But I didn't, and the silver(?) fillings as a kid turned into a few pulled teeth in my late 20's (when I was broke), and now a mouthful of expensive crowns and bridges in my late 40's. But I do take much better care now - lay off sweets/sugar, no soda, brush, floss, water pic, etc.

I have a dentist like you. He's not cheap, but I feel good about the work he does.

 

[Doug B]

When I read these kinds of threads, it makes me want socialized medicine in the U.S. all the more. Who gives a rip about Rolls-Royce level care, when Kia care is out of reach for 80% of Americans (made-up stat). Wouldn't even care if the standard care had to roll back 30 years to make sure anyone could get dental care without a second though to their pocketbook.

Never have understood why dental insurance works the way it does ... why doesn't it work more like medical insurance? Preventative visits are great ... but I never had dental insurance from a job until I was almost 30. A lot of the damage had been done by then.

Stat to blow Dentist's mind -- none of my brothers and sisters nor myself ever saw the insides of a dentist's office until we were adults. My mom said I went once when I was 2 ... I'll take her word for it. But the next time I went to a dentist after that was when I was 37. There was no way my dad (sole earner) was going to be able to swing preventative dental care for five kids. No injury? No pain? No visit.

 

[squidrope]

US medical costs are ridiculous. Last year while on a Med. cruise I had a severe sinus infection that required an emergency visit to an ENT in Portugal.

The Portugal visit cost about $350.

It included a cat scan and 2 visits with an ENT (one before CS and one after).

I spent at least an hour with the ENT in Portugal. Plus the time spent getting the CS.

When I returned to the states I had an appointment with my ENT. I was there for 20 minutes. He examined me. Removed some clots, and cauterized an area.

That visit was $1,500ish.

The follow up lasted 10 minutes and cost about $600.

I just had a visit with my ENT for another sinus infection.

He examined me and snipped a tiny skin flap caused by last years cauterization. The examination took 5-10 minutes and the "surgery" took less than 30 seconds.

This bill is $875.

I have insurance so my out of pocket is the same no matter what the charge. But it seems like the insurance company is getting raped.

The level of service in Portugal was as good, or better than what I'm getting here.

The Portuguese doctors seem to be well payed, as I saw many doctors leaving for lunch in their Audis, Mercedes, etc.

Where's all the money going?

 

[Doug B]

But man... prevention is relatively inexpensive.. and people just won't do it.

Recently, I aimed to start up with flossing** regularly, in earnest. I know it's 40 years too late, but I feel like it can't hurt, and - heck - it might help.

First time I did it, my lower left gum started bleeding like a stuck pig. No pain, just blood. The bleeding stops relatively quickly, but I was thinking "Really? REALLY?!?"

So ... yeah. That was about two months ago. Got a drawer full of floss. Will try again the future, but need to visit my dentist first. Get a free checkup every year, so I'll go for that soon and ask about the flossing.

And -- yes -- there is blood every time I brush, too. Even with soft bristles. Been on and off for over 15 years. Once after a checkup, my dentist put me on antibiotics, and my gums healed up and quit bleeding. Only lasted a few weeks, though. Need a more permanent solution.

** seriously, is flossing the best we can do in 2015? Why isn't there something we can swish in our mouth and get between teeth somehow? There's a better mmousetrap to be built here, and the person who does so will be printing money.

 

[Dentist]

But man... prevention is relatively inexpensive.. and people just won't do it.

Recently, I aimed to start up with flossing** regularly, in earnest. I know it's 40 years too late, but I feel like it can't hurt, and - heck - it might help.

First time I did it, my lower left gum started bleeding like a stuck pig. No pain, just blood. The bleeding stops relatively quickly, but I was thinking "Really? REALLY?!?"

So ... yeah. That was about two months ago. Got a drawer full of floss. Will try again the future, but need to visit my dentist first. Get a free checkup every year, so I'll go for that soon and ask about the flossing.

And -- yes -- there is blood every time I brush, too. Even with soft bristles. Been on and off for over 15 years. Once after a checkup, my dentist put me on antibiotics, and my gums healed up and quit bleeding. Only lasted a few weeks, though. Need a more permanent solution.

** seriously, is flossing the best we can do in 2015? Why isn't there something we can swish in our mouth and get between teeth somehow? There's a better mmousetrap to be built here, and the person who does so will be printing money.

Water pic or shower floss