Denver's defensive mess & the hiring of Nolan (1 Viewer)

[stevegamer]

This, to me, is one of the more interesting situations out there.

They had injury troubles, so we got to see alot of players play during this past season & a lot of different lineups.

They were also pretty bad, so we also got to see a lot of snaps by those guys.

Now they have a new head coach & DC, which will probably bring a planned scheme change to a 3-4.

Lots of candidates for LB jobs, and the DL haven't been really good to begin with.

The only thing I think we know is the CB situation - if Bly & Bailey weren't the starting CB's I'd be pretty surprised.

I know FBG has some guys with a good handle on the Broncos, so I figure we can see if we can shake a sleeper player loose fromt hsi discussion.

Curent depth chart:

Broncos Defense

LE 91 E. Ekuban 60 J. Engelberger 96 T. Crowder

LT 63 D. Robertson 90 K. Peterson

RT 79 M. Thomas 93 N. Clemons

RE 92 E. Dumervil 94 J. Moss

WLB 55 D.J. Williams 59 W. Woodyard 53 N. Koutouvides

MLB 58 N. Webster 57 M. Haggan 46 S. Larsen

SLB 51 J. Winborn 52 L. Green

LCB 24 C. Bailey 34 J. Bell 26 J. Williams

RCB 32 D. Bly 41 K. Paymah

SS 33 M. Manuel 36 J. Barrett 43 H. Jones

FS 20 M. McCree 39 V. Fox

Boss Bailey (LB) is on IR.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

The real problem for Denver is they have little talent in their front 7 outside of D.J. Williams. There are some good pieces, but that's about it.

 

[Buffaloes]

This, to me, is one of the more interesting situations out there.They had injury troubles, so we got to see alot of players play during this past season & a lot of different lineups.They were also pretty bad, so we also got to see a lot of snaps by those guys.Now they have a new head coach & DC, which will probably bring a planned scheme change to a 3-4.Lots of candidates for LB jobs, and the DL haven't been really good to begin with.The only thing I think we know is the CB situation - if Bly & Bailey weren't the starting CB's I'd be pretty surprised.I know FBG has some guys with a good handle on the Broncos, so I figure we can see if we can shake a sleeper player loose fromt hsi discussion.Curent depth chart:Broncos Defense LE 91 E. Ekuban 60 J. Engelberger 96 T. Crowder LT 63 D. Robertson 90 K. Peterson RT 79 M. Thomas 93 N. Clemons RE 92 E. Dumervil 94 J. Moss WLB 55 D.J. Williams 59 W. Woodyard 53 N. Koutouvides MLB 58 N. Webster 57 M. Haggan 46 S. Larsen SLB 51 J. Winborn 52 L. Green LCB 24 C. Bailey 34 J. Bell 26 J. Williams RCB 32 D. Bly 41 K. Paymah SS 33 M. Manuel 36 J. Barrett 43 H. Jones FS 20 M. McCree 39 V. Fox Boss Bailey (LB) is on IR.

Who knows how DJ Williams will react to playing the 3-4. My first guess is he would play WILB but who knows. If Denver transitions to the 3-4 as expected, the most important key will be getting a big space-eating NT. They can probably line Jarvis Moss up at the rush OLB/DE spot where I think he will be a better fit than as a down 4-3 DE. And they can probably make decent DEs out of Marcus Thomas and Ekuban/Crowder. But beyond that, I think this is a defense full of questions and I don't think a whole lot of players you listed will remain with the team.

 

[Tecmo]

what a mess

At first glance, they don't seem to have the big bodies for the front 3. Robertson could be a cap casualty with the big roster bonus. Not sure if I see Marcus Thomas as the anchor. Ekuban could occupy on of the end spots though he's on the smaller side. They'll need to address this in the draft obviously, a FA signing like Olshansky would help a ton.

Moss looks like a lock for a OLB spot imho, they were using him on passing downs already. He has the build and athleticism you want on the edge. Not sure if Denver even flirts with 3-4 without Moss looming on the roster. Tim Crowder has the build also, but he's been awefully quiet so far in his career. Dumervil is too small, he probably only gets work on passing downs.

Inside I'm not sure if it's

Jamie Winborn @ SILB, DJ @ WILB

or

DJ @ SILB, Boss @ WILB <-- probably this if Boss is healthy. Boss is coming off microfacture surgery though

Nate Webster is a FA that they will probably let walk. Not sure if Wesley Woodyard has a home, not bulky enough. There was talk of moving him to safety, not sure if the new regime will make that happen. They will probably want their own guys. Dumervil might be trade bait, I haven't read that, just my opinion as his value is A LOT more to another team.

my 2 cents

 

[stevegamer]

Great discussion so far.

A couple things that crossed my mind:

Ex-49ers Engelberger & Winborn were in SF under Erickson the year before Nolan got there. Engelberger left before the next season, and Winborn was shipped out that first year - after starting games. I have a feeling they may not be a good fit for the scheme.

Koutovides is a special teamer - at best. He proved that in Seattle.

Woodyard really seemed to play pretty well from what I saw. Not sure if he could stick as a OLB, but he's young & cheap enough to see if he can make an impression on the new staff.

Dumervil might bring soemthing nice in trade - he'd be a good fit for a 4-3 team looking for a rush end, like Carolina after Peppers departs.

 

[Rozelle]

Whispers / PFW

We hear Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels’ announcement that the team would transition to a 3-4 defense was welcome news to Broncos DEs Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder, who were the team’s top two picks in the 2007 draft. Moss and Crowder struggled to get playing time last season, and both looked extremely disappointing in limited duty. Moss is expected to become a “stand-up” defender in the new scheme, where he should be a better fit, and Crowder appears more suited for a role as a 3-4 end.

 

[Toads]

A good analysis of just what mountain is being climbed in DEN appears in today's DEN Post....an article spelling out Joel Collier's take on what makes the 3-4 tick:

1) First, and foremost...."The nose tackle is probably the single most important guy."

2) "You build from the inside out, the nose tackle and the (two) inside LB's, those are three guys that are very important."

3) The article continues: "It's clear that the Broncos have no one on their current roster to play the centerpiece positions in the 3-4."

4) "The two DE's spots are traditionally filled with body types the Broncos don't have on their roster."

5) It continues on, spotting the characteristics of the two OLB's and the two ILB's. The two ILB's are traditionally converted DEF Tackle types, weighing in at 260, or so, lbs. the Broncos have about three ILB's on their roster and only one of them, Mario Haggans at 263 lbs., is above 240 lbs.

Then, there's a statement that makes perfect sense: the classic alignment of the 3-4 DEf is only for 20 some odd snaps a game...the "special down and distance packages" take over from there.

So, DEN is now joining the mix in searching for players that can play into the 3-4 system. As more and more teams utilize the 3-4 as the base sytem, these players are becoming scare. What used to be a reasonable supply of players that adapted to this system is now a shortage.

Ah....for Bert Berry and Treavor Pryce.

 

[Larry Thomas]

I'm curious to see if they take a look at Crowder as a rush OLB.

 

[Toads]

I'm curious to see if they take a look at Crowder as a rush OLB.

Crowder lists at 6'4' and 275 lbs. He was hired as a DE in the 4-3....able to set the corner against the run but really supposed to be able to get to the QB, a trait that he has not demonstated in two years.The "rush end" in the 3-4 is typically an OLB, usually the OLB opposite the TE....the "weak" OLB as it may be. The DE's in the 3-4 are DT's....see Richard Seymore at 325 lbs. These are big guys who take on big guys to enable the OLB's to do there thing....which is make tackles and become pass rushers.

Crowder, of all the current personell, is the guy without a home. His actual best fit is as an ILB or OLB....a mobile LB able to take on OFF lineman but the question then becomes can he drop into pass coverage and defend open space?

The most intreguing fit is Dummervil who is maybe mobile enough to play the OLB spot. On second hand, if he were mobile enough, he would have been drafted before DEN picked him late (what...the 5th round) by a team that projected him to be an OLB in the 3-4. Maybe he's able to adapt to a ILB spot but ILB's don't traditionally spend emphasis time on rushing the passer, which is Elvis' strength.

Like I said....climbing a big mountain here.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Crowder isn't a linebacker, inside or outside. He may actually be a very good fit as an end in Mike Nolan's version of the 3-4, which sometimes acts like a 4-3 across the front seven, if he can play with a little more leverage. I agree that Dumervil's only fit is as a ROLB on base downs, but he'll have trouble with more than a situational pass rushing role in the nickel packages.

 

[Larry Thomas]

Crowder isn't a linebacker, inside or outside. He may actually be a very good fit as an end in Mike Nolan's version of the 3-4, which sometimes acts like a 4-3 across the front seven, if he can play with a little more leverage. I agree that Dumervil's only fit is as a ROLB on base downs, but he'll have trouble with more than a situational pass rushing role in the nickel packages.

I don't think so either, however at the 2007 combine it was noted he worked out as well as any DE in the LB drills.

 

[Tecmo]

Broncos have released Jamie Winborn, DeWayne Robertson, John Engelberger, Niko Koutouvides, and Marquand Manuel

inside

DJ

Nate Webster is a FA with no news of resigning so far

Boss Bailey - will be coming off microfacture surgery on his knee

Wesley Woodyard - Manuel is gone so SS might be in the works

Spencer Larsen - (converted FB) started a few games in 08 at MLB

outside

Elvis Dumervil

Jarvis Moss

Tim Crowder

upfront

Ekuban, Peterson are FAs... Robertson and Engelberger were just cut... that leaves:

Marcus Thomas

Starting to doubt if DEN can pull it off. Maybe another SF hybrid thing coming

 

[stevegamer]

Broncos have released Jamie Winborn, DeWayne Robertson, John Engelberger, Niko Koutouvides, and Marquand Manuel

inside

DJ

Nate Webster is a FA with no news of resigning so far

Boss Bailey - will be coming off microfacture surgery on his knee

Wesley Woodyard - Manuel is gone so SS might be in the works

Spencer Larsen - (converted FB) started a few games in 08 at MLB

outside

Elvis Dumervil

Jarvis Moss

Tim Crowder

upfront

Ekuban, Peterson are FAs... Robertson and Engelberger were just cut... that leaves:

Marcus Thomas

Starting to doubt if DEN can pull it off. Maybe another SF hybrid thing coming

I have somewhat doubted DEN could pull it off pretty much the whole time, and I'm not sure I think a ton of Nolan, honestly.Enbgelberger & Winborn were shipped out as expected, neither is a Nolan guy. I'd really expect to see them make a run at guys who are a bit undersized as DT's to make DE's.

I don't see Woodyard as a ILB at all. Who knows what this will be - a lot of IDP opportunity here.

 

[bcr8f]

Is Barrett still on the team? Could be he be the SS?

 

[Buffaloes]

According to the Rocky Mountain News, Dre Bly was cut today. The Broncos are going to have a lot of cap room and a lot of defensive spaces to fill this offseason.

 

[bcr8f]

According to the Rocky Mountain News, Dre Bly was cut today. The Broncos are going to have a lot of cap room and a lot of defensive spaces to fill this offseason.

There is an article on Rotoworld that they have saved$30 million this week alone.

 

[Tecmo]

link

Jarvis Moss has been notified that he will be moved to OLB in the new Denver scheme. Looks more official now with Moss's agent being notified

 

[Buffaloes]

Darrell Reid, a defensive tackle who last played with the Colts is looking to be converted to OLB according to the Denver Post. I know he was a special teams standout but it's not often a DT is converted to OLB. Jene, or anyone who might know, what are the chances Reid becomes anything more than depth? It seems like Denver has a bit of a logjam when it comes to tweener DL/OLB with guys like Moss, Crowder, Dumerville, and now Reid.

 

[rascal]

That makes zero sense.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Darrell Reid, a defensive tackle who last played with the Colts is looking to be converted to OLB according to the Denver Post. I know he was a special teams standout but it's not often a DT is converted to OLB. Jene, or anyone who might know, what are the chances Reid becomes anything more than depth? It seems like Denver has a bit of a logjam when it comes to tweener DL/OLB with guys like Moss, Crowder, Dumerville, and now Reid.

Very small chance. It'll be shocking if he puts up more than 40 solos or 8 sacks.

 

[Larry Thomas]

Denver HC Josh McDaniels confirmed Dumervil and Reid will be used as hybrid defensive end-linebackers to rush the quarterback.

The Broncos' roster has a glaring hole, and for once, this one has nothing to do with the quarterback.

Despite all the offseason changes Josh McDaniels and his new staff have made to the defense, the head coach said Tuesday the team still is weeks, if not months, away from knowing who will play nose tackle, the position that literally is the biggest piece in a 3-4 defensive puzzle.

"We're going to try multiple people there. It will be interesting," McDaniels said. "We're kind of excited to see who can or who couldn't and what we need to do with those guys. I think they all present different problems in their own right."

The leading candidate at this point is free-agent addition Ronnie Fields, who played in all 16 games last season as a reserve for San Francisco, though McDaniels said returning starter Marcus Thomas and former practice-squad player Matthias Askew also will get a look this spring. The team also signed free agent J'Vonne Parker, who, at 6-feet-4, 325 pounds is the closest to the physical ideal for a nose tackle.

McDaniels said his preference is for bulkier defensive linemen.

That's where the draft could come in.

"We want them to be big," McDaniels said. "One of the things, I've said it since I arrived in Denver, is we want to be tough, physical, and I think that's going to start up front on both sides of the ball. We're looking to add size and versatility, and we want to be able to stop the run."

McDaniels also confirmed that Elvis Dumervil and free-agent addition Darrell Reid will be used as hybrid defensive end-linebackers to rush the quarterback.

"We really like a lot of the abilities players like Elvis have because they're not always a clean matchup for someone on the other side of the ball," McDaniels said. "He's going to do both. He's going to have his hand on the ground some, and he's going to stand up some."

Beyond envisioning a new role for those two players, McDaniels said it may be weeks, if not months, before the rest of the defensive front takes shape.

"I think it's really important that we see where we finish this spring, and head into training camp in terms of our personnel," McDaniels said. "I don't think we can really sit there today and say, 'That looks perfect.' "

Lindsay H. Jones: 303-954-1262 or ljones@denverpost.com

denverpost.com

 

[stevegamer]

Honestly that DL is looking pretty perfect: perfectly awful & devoid of what they need to run a 3-4.

 

[BearsFan]

Honestly that DL is looking pretty perfect: perfectly awful & devoid of what they need to run a 3-4.

I guess Josh McDaniels doesn't subscribe to the theory that you adjust your scheme to the strengths of the personnel.

 

[bcr8f]

Honestly that DL is looking pretty perfect: perfectly awful & devoid of what they need to run a 3-4.

I guess Josh McDaniels doesn't subscribe to the theory that you adjust your scheme to the strengths of the personnel.

He probably thinks Moss and Welker are still on the team. He doesn't seem at that bright.

 

[stevegamer]

Honestly that DL is looking pretty perfect: perfectly awful & devoid of what they need to run a 3-4.

I guess Josh McDaniels doesn't subscribe to the theory that you adjust your scheme to the strengths of the personnel.

He probably thinks Moss and Welker are still on the team. He doesn't seem at that bright.

McDaniels seems stupid to me.The offensive side of the ball seemed fine. I thought they had talent reasonably close to NE at least at QB/WR/TE, and they have a plethora of RB's, a couple of whom I like some. So they intend to "fix" the offense by pissing off/trying to trade the QB (and maybe TE), not adding any significantly better RB options, and ignoring the line.On D, they had 1 good corner, and some guys who could do some things. They have addressed the safety issue at least somewhat, but a running a scheme they don't have personnel for. I'd almost like to see them try a 5-2.

 

[Buffaloes]

Honestly that DL is looking pretty perfect: perfectly awful & devoid of what they need to run a 3-4.

I guess Josh McDaniels doesn't subscribe to the theory that you adjust your scheme to the strengths of the personnel.

He probably thinks Moss and Welker are still on the team. He doesn't seem at that bright.

McDaniels seems stupid to me.The offensive side of the ball seemed fine. I thought they had talent reasonably close to NE at least at QB/WR/TE, and they have a plethora of RB's, a couple of whom I like some. So they intend to "fix" the offense by pissing off/trying to trade the QB (and maybe TE), not adding any significantly better RB options, and ignoring the line.On D, they had 1 good corner, and some guys who could do some things. They have addressed the safety issue at least somewhat, but a running a scheme they don't have personnel for. I'd almost like to see them try a 5-2.

I'm guessing they go with a transitional 4-3, 3-4 hybrid similar to what Nolan had in SF. Goodman could be an upgrade at CB and both safeties are upgrades as well. Denver appears to be building from the back forward which is what Shanahan did and it didn't work that well the first time.

 

[DawnBTVS]

I think we have to keep in mind that it's McDaniel's first season and we haven't even had the NFL draft yet (where he could select a NT).

Andra Davis is a very quiet, solid addition having played ILB in the 3-4 under Romeo Crennel in Cleveland. He can help the transition as well.

They have some size for the OLB (sizes taken from NFL.com): Jarvis Moss (6'6" 265) and Elvis Dumervil (5'11" 260). In terms of DT, Reid is listed at 288, Thomas at 305, and Fields is 315. Davis (250) and D.J. Williams (242) both have good size for the ILB position. Boss Bailey is 232 but could gain weight and be depth.

Compare that to NE: Richard Seymour is their heaviest DL at 310. DE/DT Jarvis Green and Ty Warren are 285 and 300 respectively. All of their LB are around 240-250 lbs outside of Vince Redd (260) and Banta-Cain (265).

 

[Fanatic13]

I will repeat an earlier question that was not addressed..

With Manuel gone what are J. Barretts chances of having any impact ????? Is he worth a roster spot ???

 

[Jene Bramel]

I will repeat an earlier question that was not addressed..With Manuel gone what are J. Barretts chances of having any impact ????? Is he worth a roster spot ???

The Broncos have signed both Brian Dawkins and Renaldo Hill, two solid two-way veteran players who will be heavy favorites to start. Barrett remains in the picture, but faces an uphill battle with the new coaching staff apparently. I wouldn't have him rostered except in the very deepest of tackle-heavy leagues right now.

 

[Fanatic13]

Thanks Jene...