Devin Hester is a better football player then Jamaal Charles? (1 Viewer)

[GridironMenace]

Definatly a joke and I don't care what anyone says Charles is a stud. He has only Been in the league 3 years obviously he doesn't have that many great seasons but all I know is he dominated last two years with 5.9 ypc and 6.4 ypc... led league in YPC back to back years and is only 24. this list is stupid like multiple scores said, and the list is supposed to be top players of 2011... Your telling me that Hester will be a so called better player then Charles, who is usually top 3 or 4 dynasty pick, your insane if you think that, and secondly HESTER will not, I repeat will not make HOF. He is a crappy receiver and is only a return man.. he really only had one great season. He is Very overrated... All I was trying to do was make that point and I think it was clearly made, List sucks... lets move on..

The fact that you are equating fantasy football dynasty value as your reasoning why Charles is better than Hester is the only joke in this thread. Listen, I don't think you are understanding (or trying to understand) the opposing viewpoint. No one is trying to say that Hester's WR ability is great or even good. The arguments are coming from Hester's game changing ability on punt/kickoff returns and his ability to get into the HoF. He is the best return man ever. There is no one that is even close to him.Look at it like this: who has the better chance to get into the NFL HoF, Charles or Hester? No one in their right mind would say Charles. Hester is much closer and has a much more realistic shot at getting into the HoF. Therefore, Hester is the better pro football player and means more to his team, than Jamaal Charles.

You can spout off about how great Charles' yards per carry are. Big deal. Let me ask you this question: What combination of players would the Kansas City Chiefs rather have: Jamaal Charles and Javier Arenas or Matt Forte and Devin Hester? The Chiefs would made that trade in a heartbeat. The Bears would never make that trade. So stop thinking about this in terms of fantasy football and instead look at it as impact to one's pro football team and ability to replace said players. In other words, Charles can be easily replaced with similar ability from any number of players in the league (AP, DeAngelo, Forte, McCoy, Foster; I can go on and name 25-30 players that are either better than Charles or can do a pretty good job at replacing him. No one and I mean no one can replace Hester.

 

[eakfootball]

I would for sure say Charles has a better chance at the HOF than Hester.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I would for sure say Charles has a better chance at the HOF than Hester.

Then you are blinded by your bias.Hester is the best returner ever with 14 return TDs and still is only 28.Charles almost has 3,000 rushing yards and only 17 total TD's.Hester has 14 return TDs on 291 attempts= TD per 20.8 attemptsCharles has 17 total TDs(rush/rec) on 599 attempts= TD per 35.2 attemptsCharles has a much shorter field to work with as well.

 

[Jason Wood]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

 

[GridironMenace]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

 

[eakfootball]

The Charles would be a bigger loss to the chiefs than Hester to the bears.

 

[Jason Wood]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

But your stating that because Hester isn't a great WR, he has to play ST. That's like saying Peyton Manning isn't athletic to play any other position, so he has to play QB.ST is 1/3 of the game and is very important(ask the Chargers who are horrible or the Bears who are great) if it affects the outcome of games.

 

[eakfootball]

I would for sure say Charles has a better chance at the HOF than Hester.

Then you are blinded by your bias.Hester is the best returner ever with 14 return TDs and still is only 28.Charles almost has 3,000 rushing yards and only 17 total TD's.Hester has 14 return TDs on 291 attempts= TD per 20.8 attemptsCharles has 17 total TDs(rush/rec) on 599 attempts= TD per 35.2 attemptsCharles has a much shorter field to work with as well.

Let's just put it this way, neither one of them is sniffing the HOF, but Charles has a better chance. Especially with the new rules, Hester will likely not get any more than 1 or 2 more TDs. When some of the best receivers of all time don't get in, a return man will not come close. Charles still has 6 or so good seasons left, and I don't think many people would argue that he has a shot at being the best back in the league over that period. If he does live up to his potential, and does average 2000 total yards for the next six years he will have a 25-30% chance at getting in. Compared to Hester who is a return man.

 

[D.J.]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

an interesting dynamic to gp wirh this point (I'm not really sure who's side I think it supports). The Bears recognized the talent of Hester with the ball in his hands, so they converted him to WR and reduced his return duties. Obviously, in retrospect Hester would have had more value returning kicks full time. It looks like the Bears are beginning to accept this fact and are going to maximize his return duties again. So, the Bears are now saying a stud returnman is more valuable than an OK WR (the basic tradeoff they are making). If this is true, it could be a decent way to close the gap in value from "traditional" skill players to the return game. How good does a returnman have to be to be worth as much as a stud WR or RB? Obviously, the Bears thought the stud WR was worth more than the stud returnman because they made the change to begin with hoping Hester would pan out as a WR. How good would he have to be so that he was a WR first and a returnman second? I'm really not sure. If Hester was a 65/1000/6 type of WR, does he ever handle more than 50% of the the punt return duties?

 

[D.J.]

I would for sure say Charles has a better chance at the HOF than Hester.

Then you are blinded by your bias.Hester is the best returner ever with 14 return TDs and still is only 28.Charles almost has 3,000 rushing yards and only 17 total TD's.Hester has 14 return TDs on 291 attempts= TD per 20.8 attemptsCharles has 17 total TDs(rush/rec) on 599 attempts= TD per 35.2 attemptsCharles has a much shorter field to work with as well.

Let's just put it this way, neither one of them is sniffing the HOF, but Charles has a better chance. Especially with the new rules, Hester will likely not get any more than 1 or 2 more TDs. When some of the best receivers of all time don't get in, a return man will not come close. Charles still has 6 or so good seasons left, and I don't think many people would argue that he has a shot at being the best back in the league over that period. If he does live up to his potential, and does average 2000 total yards for the next six years he will have a 25-30% chance at getting in. Compared to Hester who is a return man.

Who has had a bigger impact on the game and how it's played?

 

[Jason Wood]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

an interesting dynamic to gp wirh this point (I'm not really sure who's side I think it supports). The Bears recognized the talent of Hester with the ball in his hands, so they converted him to WR and reduced his return duties. Obviously, in retrospect Hester would have had more value returning kicks full time. It looks like the Bears are beginning to accept this fact and are going to maximize his return duties again. So, the Bears are now saying a stud returnman is more valuable than an OK WR (the basic tradeoff they are making). If this is true, it could be a decent way to close the gap in value from "traditional" skill players to the return game. How good does a returnman have to be to be worth as much as a stud WR or RB? Obviously, the Bears thought the stud WR was worth more than the stud returnman because they made the change to begin with hoping Hester would pan out as a WR. How good would he have to be so that he was a WR first and a returnman second? I'm really not sure. If Hester was a 65/1000/6 type of WR, does he ever handle more than 50% of the the punt return duties?

There's a lots of ways to cut this jib...*** Many guys are returners early in their careers and then when they emerge as full time contributors on offense/defense, they have their return duties reduced/removed*** Guys that are returners for long periods of time have generally been ruled out as full-time contributors on offense/defense*** Anyone arguing that special teams is "1/3" of the game is making a strawman. Of course it's a facet of the game, but the personnel who focus primarily on special teams are generally considered lesser players than those who are mainly on offense/defense.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I would for sure say Charles has a better chance at the HOF than Hester.

Then you are blinded by your bias.Hester is the best returner ever with 14 return TDs and still is only 28.

Charles almost has 3,000 rushing yards and only 17 total TD's.

Hester has 14 return TDs on 291 attempts= TD per 20.8 attempts

Charles has 17 total TDs(rush/rec) on 599 attempts= TD

per 35.2 attempts

Charles has a much shorter field to work with as well.

Let's just put it this way, neither one of them is sniffing the HOF, but Charles has a better chance. Especially with the new rules, Hester will likely not get any more than 1 or 2 more TDs.

When some of the best receivers of all time don't get in, a return man will not come close. Charles still has 6 or so good seasons left, and I don't think many people would

argue that he has a shot at being the best back in the league over that period. If he does

live up to his potential, and does average 2000 total yards for the next six years he will

have a 25-30% chance at getting in. Compared to Hester who is a return man.

Shows how little you know. Hester has had a combined 19 kick return attempts in 2009/2010, he had 57 punt return attempts(outside of the ones not kicked out of bounds or sky high). The new kick return rules will affect kick returners...Daniel Manning/Johnny Knox handled those duties for the Bears in 2009/2010.

The point you're assuming...yet again...is that Jamaal Charles will continue this pace he is on. He could tear up his knee tomorrow and never be the same player. Did you see him crumble in the playoff game last year???

However, Hester already IS the best return man ever...no debate about it...and still is 28, so more time to add to his 8 NFL records.

Jamaal Charles is almost at 3,000 yards rushing. He needs another 7,000 yards to even equate his teammate Thomas Jones. He needs another 9,000 to get close to Edgerrin James. Do we consider both of them HOF players? Ricky Watters has 74 more touchdowns and 7,500 yards on Charles is he a HOF???

With all of the RBBC going on in the NFL and his own coach Todd Haley implementing that concept....I bet he doesn't even come close to those players.

 

[GridironMenace]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

Wood, I know you're staff and you have to play politics around here, but I would like you to answer the below questions.1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles (HB) and Arenas (KR/PR) for Hester (KR/PR) and Forte (HB). Does KC do that deal?3) Which player will get closer to sniffing the HoF a good HB (Charles) or the best special teams player ever (Hester)?Thanks

 

[SproutDaddy]

I would for sure say Charles has a better chance at the HOF than Hester.

Right. Because he's only been a part time back thus far and holds several NFL records.

 

[Jason Wood]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:

1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?

2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

Wood, I know you're staff and you have to play politics around here, but I would like you to answer the below questions.1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?

Devin Hester, although I don't think either deserve to be thought of as elite NFL players

2) Charles (HB) and Arenas (KR/PR) for Hester (KR/PR) and Forte (HB). Does KC do that deal?

I would say there's somewhere between zero and no chance Pioli would ever do that deal.

3) Which player will get closer to sniffing the HoF a good HB (Charles) or the best special teams player ever (Hester)?

I believe there's an immeasurably high bar (as there should be) for HOF consideration and right now I would say neither have done enough to get serious consideration. If Hester does what he's done for another five years, he has a shot if the voting committee rethinks its approach to special teams specialists.

Thanks

 

[eakfootball]

I would for sure say Charles has a better chance at the HOF than Hester.

Then you are blinded by your bias.Hester is the best returner ever with 14 return TDs and still is only 28.

Charles almost has 3,000 rushing yards and only 17 total TD's.

Hester has 14 return TDs on 291 attempts= TD per 20.8 attempts

Charles has 17 total TDs(rush/rec) on 599 attempts= TD

per 35.2 attempts

Charles has a much shorter field to work with as well.

Let's just put it this way, neither one of them is sniffing the HOF, but Charles has a better chance. Especially with the new rules, Hester will likely not get any more than 1 or 2 more TDs.

When some of the best receivers of all time don't get in, a return man will not come close. Charles still has 6 or so good seasons left, and I don't think many people would

argue that he has a shot at being the best back in the league over that period. If he does

live up to his potential, and does average 2000 total yards for the next six years he will

have a 25-30% chance at getting in. Compared to Hester who is a return man.

Shows how little you know. Hester has had a combined 19 kick return attempts in 2009/2010, he had 57 punt return attempts(outside of the ones not kicked out of bounds or sky high). The new kick return rules will affect kick returners...Daniel Manning/Johnny Knox handled those duties for the Bears in 2009/2010.

The point you're assuming...yet again...is that Jamaal Charles will continue this pace he is on. He could tear up his knee tomorrow and never be the same player. Did you see him crumble in the playoff game last year???

However, Hester already IS the best return man ever...no debate about it...and still is 28, so more time to add to his 8 NFL records.

Jamaal Charles is almost at 3,000 yards rushing. He needs another 7,000 yards to even equate his teammate Thomas Jones. He needs another 9,000 to get close to Edgerrin James. Do we consider both of them HOF players? Ricky Watters has 74 more touchdowns and 7,500 yards on Charles is he a HOF???

With all of the RBBC going on in the NFL and his own coach Todd Haley implementing that concept....I bet he doesn't even come close to those players.

I think your missing my argument. I don't think Jamaal Charles will continue the pace he is on. But I do think there is a 10% chance Charles goes crazy, and becomes one of the top backs of the decade. That chance is higher than the chance they put a returner in the HOF. Here is an argument that is more related to the subject, is Hester a more valuable player than Chris Carter or Andre Reed? Because those guys aren't in the HOF. I don't think Charles will be in the hall, but I think there is a better chance that he becomes the stud of the league over the next six years, than Hester getting 10 more return TDs, which is probably what it will take to get in.

 

[eakfootball]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:

1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?

2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

Wood, I know you're staff and you have to play politics around here, but I would like you to answer the below questions.1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?

Devin Hester, although I don't think either deserve to be thought of as elite NFL players

2) Charles (HB) and Arenas (KR/PR) for Hester (KR/PR) and Forte (HB). Does KC do that deal?

I would say there's somewhere between zero and no chance Pioli would ever do that deal.

3) Which player will get closer to sniffing the HoF a good HB (Charles) or the best special teams player ever (Hester)?

I believe there's an immeasurably high bar (as there should be) for HOF consideration and right now I would say neither have done enough to get serious consideration. If Hester does what he's done for another five years, he has a shot if the voting committee rethinks its approach to special teams specialists.

Thanks

 

[Tau837]

To be fair, Devin Hester is going to be in the NFL hall of fame. Charles needs to do what he's done for about 8 more years to get into that building. Plus he's never done anything other than split time.

No, Hester will not be and should not be in the Hall of Fame based on his career to date.

 

[Tau837]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

Wood, I know you're staff and you have to play politics around here, but I would like you to answer the below questions.1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles (HB) and Arenas (KR/PR) for Hester (KR/PR) and Forte (HB). Does KC do that deal?3) Which player will get closer to sniffing the HoF a good HB (Charles) or the best special teams player ever (Hester)?Thanks

1. Hester2. No, KC does not make that deal.3. Hester has basically no shot at the HOF, so IMO Charles would have a better chance to make it, since it is at least possible he will prove out to be a HOF caliber RB. In reality, I think neither will make it.

 

[D.J.]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

Wood, I know you're staff and you have to play politics around here, but I would like you to answer the below questions.1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles (HB) and Arenas (KR/PR) for Hester (KR/PR) and Forte (HB). Does KC do that deal?3) Which player will get closer to sniffing the HoF a good HB (Charles) or the best special teams player ever (Hester)?Thanks

1. Hester2. No, KC does not make that deal.3. Hester has basically no shot at the HOF, so IMO Charles would have a better chance to make it, since it is at least possible he will prove out to be a HOF caliber RB. In reality, I think neither will make it.

For what its worth, this board seems to be filled with a lot of highly intelligent football people and there seems to be a fairly even split on a returner (like hester) making the hof. So, I dont think its fair to say there is no.chance that he makes the hof. The arguement about cris carter not being in doesnt seem to be valid to me because I think he will end up in eventually.

 

[Tau837]

For what its worth, this board seems to be filled with a lot of highly intelligent football people and there seems to be a fairly even split on a returner (like hester) making the hof. So, I dont think its fair to say there is no.chance that he makes the hof.

My opinion is that he has no chance. It's "fair" for me to state my opinion.Yes, there are plenty of intelligent football people that post here. However, I don't think the intelligent posters are fairly evenly split on a returner making the HOF. IMO the intelligent football people posting here are fairly clearly on the side of Hester not making it. Not saying they are 100% of that opinion, but much more than 50%.I've posted a lot in the past about special teams players and the HOF. Here are some relevant points:1. Special teams players do not have as much opportunity to impact the game as offensive and defensive starters. Take Hester as an example. He has 291 kick returns in 5 seasons, with a max of 85 in one season. Offensive and defensive starters typically play 900+ snaps per season.2. Kickers and punters could be deemed to be true specialists. But generally other special teams positions require skillsets similar to offensive and defensive players. As Wood already noted, generally elite offensive and defensive players are not used on special teams because they are viewed to be more valuable on offense/defense.3. No punter is in the HOF. One kicker is in the HOF, and the best kickers of all time are not in. Given that they are true specialists, the notion that the best returner of all time should make it would also apply to those positions... but it hasn't happened.The bottom line is that Hester has not made nearly as many impact plays as a typical HOF player makes in his first five seasons. And there doesn't seem to be any reason to think he is suddenly going to make a lot more going forward... he would have to turn into a great WR to do that.Put it all together and he has no chance.

 

[GridironMenace]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:

1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?

2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

Wood, I know you're staff and you have to play politics around here, but I would like you to answer the below questions.1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?

Devin Hester, although I don't think either deserve to be thought of as elite NFL players

2) Charles (HB) and Arenas (KR/PR) for Hester (KR/PR) and Forte (HB). Does KC do that deal?

I would say there's somewhere between zero and no chance Pioli would ever do that deal.

3) Which player will get closer to sniffing the HoF a good HB (Charles) or the best special teams player ever (Hester)?

I believe there's an immeasurably high bar (as there should be) for HOF consideration and right now I would say neither have done enough to get serious consideration. If Hester does what he's done for another five years, he has a shot if the voting committee rethinks its approach to special teams specialists.

Thanks

Thanks for answering, but I would like to challenge you on why you think Hester is more replaceable than Charles. Hester is the best returner ever. In the history of the NFL no returner has ever done what Hester has done and no active player comes close to his talent level in the return game. Jamaal Charles is a nice HB, but there are a lot of HB's that can come close to performing on Charles' level. Forte is one of them. Ahmad Bradshaw is another. Peterson. Foster. MJD. CJ3. McFadden. Best. Rice. Mendenhall. McCoy. Gore. SJax. Turner. Hillis. I'll just stop there because I'm getting bored listing a ton of players. I'm not going to argue which of those HB's are better or worse than Charles. It doesn't even matter. The point being that you can remove Charles and add Frank Gore and you can come pretty darn close to Charles' production. How can you possibly match Hesters' production? Who (besides for Cribbs) can you even come remotely close to the advantage in field position that Hester gives his team? What, you are going to put Ted Ginn in place of Hester? Come on.

In fantasy football we talk about VBD all the time. Why doesn't it hold true here? Hester is so much more valuable to his team (compared to Charles), just on replacement value alone, I don't see how an intelligent football mind (such as yourself) can say the opposite.

Oh and while we will never be able to prove it, I believe Pioli would jump at a Forte/Hester for Arenas/Charles trade. Forte can do pretty much everything that Charles can do. Arenas can't touch Hester. Hester is the reason why a pretty pitiful Chicago offense (for the last 4 years) was able to hang with teams. The short field Hester gave them was that difference.

 

[shortbow]

For what its worth, this board seems to be filled with a lot of highly intelligent football people and there seems to be a fairly even split on a returner (like hester) making the hof. So, I dont think its fair to say there is no.chance that he makes the hof.

My opinion is that he has no chance. It's "fair" for me to state my opinion.Yes, there are plenty of intelligent football people that post here. However, I don't think the intelligent posters are fairly evenly split on a returner making the HOF. IMO the intelligent football people posting here are fairly clearly on the side of Hester not making it. Not saying they are 100% of that opinion, but much more than 50%.I've posted a lot in the past about special teams players and the HOF. Here are some relevant points:1. Special teams players do not have as much opportunity to impact the game as offensive and defensive starters. Take Hester as an example. He has 291 kick returns in 5 seasons, with a max of 85 in one season. Offensive and defensive starters typically play 900+ snaps per season.2. Kickers and punters could be deemed to be true specialists. But generally other special teams positions require skillsets similar to offensive and defensive players. As Wood already noted, generally elite offensive and defensive players are not used on special teams because they are viewed to be more valuable on offense/defense.3. No punter is in the HOF. One kicker is in the HOF, and the best kickers of all time are not in. Given that they are true specialists, the notion that the best returner of all time should make it would also apply to those positions... but it hasn't happened.The bottom line is that Hester has not made nearly as many impact plays as a typical HOF player makes in his first five seasons. And there doesn't seem to be any reason to think he is suddenly going to make a lot more going forward... he would have to turn into a great WR to do that.Put it all together and he has no chance.

Im really good at stating opinions and fake statistics as fact too. Like how the HoF isnt actually important and how Jamaal Charles short career thus far has been incredibly over rated, also - who respects arguably the best return man ever, he doesnt even have to play football, but he does? That's stupid. His numbers are only impressive when you consider that the only person even in the running with him doesnt play anymore, has less touchdowns and im pretty sure more than double the attempts.I was originally in favor of this argument, but I thought it was simpler than you guys apparently, but I guess I was way wrong. I dont think it even matters the rest of his career, pretty confident Hester will make the HoF, if charles continues to put up the same numbers against a real schedule (look it up) then he is a contender as well. This will be the year that makes Charles career for him, goes from playing half of a soft schedule to playing an entirely soft schedule to the hardest schedule this year in the NFL.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I would for sure say Charles has a better chance at the HOF than Hester.

Then you are blinded by your bias.Hester is the best returner ever with 14 return TDs and still is only 28.

Charles almost has 3,000 rushing yards and only 17 total TD's.

Hester has 14 return TDs on 291 attempts= TD per 20.8 attempts

Charles has 17 total TDs(rush/rec) on 599 attempts= TD

per 35.2 attempts

Charles has a much shorter field to work with as well.

Let's just put it this way, neither one of them is sniffing the HOF, but Charles has a better chance. Especially with the new rules, Hester will likely not get any more than 1 or 2 more TDs.

When some of the best receivers of all time don't get in, a return man will not come close. Charles still has 6 or so good seasons left, and I don't think many people would

argue that he has a shot at being the best back in the league over that period. If he does

live up to his potential, and does average 2000 total yards for the next six years he will

have a 25-30% chance at getting in. Compared to Hester who is a return man.

Shows how little you know. Hester has had a combined 19 kick return attempts in 2009/2010, he had 57 punt return attempts(outside of the ones not kicked out of bounds or sky high). The new kick return rules will affect kick returners...Daniel Manning/Johnny Knox handled those duties for the Bears in 2009/2010.

The point you're assuming...yet again...is that Jamaal Charles will continue this pace he is on. He could tear up his knee tomorrow and never be the same player. Did you see him crumble in the playoff game last year???

However, Hester already IS the best return man ever...no debate about it...and still is 28, so more time to add to his 8 NFL records.

Jamaal Charles is almost at 3,000 yards rushing. He needs another 7,000 yards to even equate his teammate Thomas Jones. He needs another 9,000 to get close to Edgerrin James. Do we consider both of them HOF players? Ricky Watters has 74 more touchdowns and 7,500 yards on Charles is he a HOF???

With all of the RBBC going on in the NFL and his own coach Todd Haley implementing that concept....I bet he doesn't even come close to those players.

I think your missing my argument. I don't think Jamaal Charles will continue the pace he is on. But I do think there is a 10% chance Charles goes crazy, and becomes one of the top backs of the decade. That chance is higher than the chance they put a returner in the HOF. Here is an argument that is more related to the subject, is Hester a more valuable player than Chris Carter or Andre Reed? Because those guys aren't in the HOF. I don't think Charles will be in the hall, but I think there is a better chance that he becomes the stud of the league over the next six years, than Hester getting 10 more return TDs, which is probably what it will take to get in.

No, I get your argument. No returner is in the HOF, so why would one get in now. Not like he is the best ever at the age of 28 or anything. If the voters decided to finally put in a returner, he would be the first returner to get in.Chris Carter will get into the HOF, Andre Reed will not.

To get into the HOF, you need to be elite/great at something. Andre Reed was neither.

I like Jamaal Charles as a player, but a long sustained career will numbers over 10000 yards and 80 touchdowns is a must. With the RBBC and injuries RB's go through...it's easy to see why Hester has a better chance.

 

[T with T]

Definatly a joke and I don't care what anyone says Charles is a stud. He has only Been in the league 3 years obviously he doesn't have that many great seasons but all I know is he dominated last two years with 5.9 ypc and 6.4 ypc... led league in YPC back to back years and is only 24. this list is stupid like multiple scores said, and the list is supposed to be top players of 2011... Your telling me that Hester will be a so called better player then Charles, who is usually top 3 or 4 dynasty pick, your insane if you think that, and secondly HESTER will not, I repeat will not make HOF. He is a crappy receiver and is only a return man.. he really only had one great season. He is Very overrated... All I was trying to do was make that point and I think it was clearly made, List sucks... lets move on..

The fact that you are equating fantasy football dynasty value as your reasoning why Charles is better than Hester is the only joke in this thread. Listen, I don't think you are understanding (or trying to understand) the opposing viewpoint. No one is trying to say that Hester's WR ability is great or even good. The arguments are coming from Hester's game changing ability on punt/kickoff returns and his ability to get into the HoF. He is the best return man ever. There is no one that is even close to him.Look at it like this: who has the better chance to get into the NFL HoF, Charles or Hester? No one in their right mind would say Charles. Hester is much closer and has a much more realistic shot at getting into the HoF. Therefore, Hester is the better pro football player and means more to his team, than Jamaal Charles.

You can spout off about how great Charles' yards per carry are. Big deal. Let me ask you this question: What combination of players would the Kansas City Chiefs rather have: Jamaal Charles and Javier Arenas or Matt Forte and Devin Hester? The Chiefs would made that trade in a heartbeat. The Bears would never make that trade. So stop thinking about this in terms of fantasy football and instead look at it as impact to one's pro football team and ability to replace said players. In other words, Charles can be easily replaced with similar ability from any number of players in the league (AP, DeAngelo, Forte, McCoy, Foster; I can go on and name 25-30 players that are either better than Charles or can do a pretty good job at replacing him. No one and I mean no one can replace Hester.

you are sounding like an idiot the more and more you talk and spout off... There is not 25-30 guys that can do what charles does bud, you must be a bears fan and their are guys who are close to hester in the PR game Check Cribbs, Desean jackson... you are acting immature and your argument holds no weight, Im not thinking in terms of Dynasty football rankings jerk, Im talking about impacting a football game, team so you should check yourself bud, and I do think charles has a better chance at the HOF then Hester sorry pal

 

[T with T]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

How do you know that Charles doesn't have a shot in Hell to get in???? he is only 24 and in his 4th year. what if he has another 6-8 1000 yard seasons then what are you gonna say dude... You sound so idiotic right now You should just go back to where you came from, your argument holds no water, We learned here that the rankings are futile and no one cares what NFL network has to say or gridiron so go marry hester and shut up

 

[T with T]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

an interesting dynamic to gp wirh this point (I'm not really sure who's side I think it supports). The Bears recognized the talent of Hester with the ball in his hands, so they converted him to WR and reduced his return duties. Obviously, in retrospect Hester would have had more value returning kicks full time. It looks like the Bears are beginning to accept this fact and are going to maximize his return duties again. So, the Bears are now saying a stud returnman is more valuable than an OK WR (the basic tradeoff they are making). If this is true, it could be a decent way to close the gap in value from "traditional" skill players to the return game. How good does a returnman have to be to be worth as much as a stud WR or RB? Obviously, the Bears thought the stud WR was worth more than the stud returnman because they made the change to begin with hoping Hester would pan out as a WR. How good would he have to be so that he was a WR first and a returnman second? I'm really not sure. If Hester was a 65/1000/6 type of WR, does he ever handle more than 50% of the the punt return duties?

There's a lots of ways to cut this jib...*** Many guys are returners early in their careers and then when they emerge as full time contributors on offense/defense, they have their return duties reduced/removed*** Guys that are returners for long periods of time have generally been ruled out as full-time contributors on offense/defense*** Anyone arguing that special teams is "1/3" of the game is making a strawman. Of course it's a facet of the game, but the personnel who focus primarily on special teams are generally considered lesser players than those who are mainly on offense/defense.

right first of all, the best players on the team generally don't play ST thats usually the guys that couldn't make the cut on offense or defense so to be fair, with awesome blocking Hester was scoring tds against Bums on S/T, while Charles was playing against the BIG BOYS from the AFC, Big time starters, not S/T Fodder... Its easy to tell who is just starting arguments. Everyone knows Charles is better then hester, More important to the team and changes the game more... Hester lovers you are done... Case Closed its already a fact. Hester scored 14 tds whooopie do he did it against brian munnervill haha geez PERIOD

 

[T with T]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

To be clear, I'm not arguing the Charles vs. Hester thing, I'm discussing whether Hester should/will get into the HOF.

Wood, I know you're staff and you have to play politics around here, but I would like you to answer the below questions.1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles (HB) and Arenas (KR/PR) for Hester (KR/PR) and Forte (HB). Does KC do that deal?3) Which player will get closer to sniffing the HoF a good HB (Charles) or the best special teams player ever (Hester)?Thanks

1. Hester2. No, KC does not make that deal.3. Hester has basically no shot at the HOF, so IMO Charles would have a better chance to make it, since it is at least possible he will prove out to be a HOF caliber RB. In reality, I think neither will make it.

GOOD POST thats about what any mature, football fan with any knowledge of the game whatsoever would say... Chris johnson and ap are regarded as HOF runners and really charles is on the Cusp of what them two have been doing if he could only get involved a little more, he actually produces more if you take Yards per touch... gridiron u have been served punk

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

you are sounding like an idiot the more and more you talk and spout off... There is not 25-30 guys that can do what charles does bud, you must be a bears fan and their are guys who are close to hester in the PR game Check Cribbs, Desean jackson... you are acting immature and your argument holds no weight, Im not thinking in terms of Dynasty football rankings jerk, Im talking about impacting a football game, team so you should check yourself bud, and I do think charles has a better chance at the HOF then Hester sorry pal

Devin Hester has 14 return TDs during the regular season on 291 attempts= 1 TD per 20.8 attemptsWant to compare him to others???Josh Cribbs has 10 return TDs on 428 attempts= 1 TD per 42.8 attemptsYou stated Cribbs is close to Hester in the punt return game, only 2 of his TDs are punt returns= 1 TD per 61.5 attemptsDesean Jackson has 4 return TDs on 101 attempts= 1 TD per 25.8 attemptsDesean is talented, but he is still a ways off and has a small sample size. Plus less than 1/3 of the TDs Hester has in the regular season.Curious about comparing Hester to the other all time return greats?Brian Mitchell has 13 return TDs on 1,071 attempts= 1 TD per 82.3 attemptsEric Metcalf has 12 return TDs on 631 attempts= 1 TD per 52.6 attemptsNobody is close to Hester in this category because he has ALREADY accomplished it in a blazing fast time period.He doesn't impact the game? Remember his FG return for a TD against the NYG, that put a stamp on that game.He also returned the kickoff return for a TD in the Super Bowl as a rookie.The one thing not brought up yet. Hester's impact isn't just in return TDs, it's in field position. Teams kick out of bounds, sky high, short to not have him return. This gives the Bears offense good field position. I compare it to Ricky Henderson on first base and messing up pitchers. He impacts the game, period!

 

[D.J.]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

an interesting dynamic to gp wirh this point (I'm not really sure who's side I think it supports). The Bears recognized the talent of Hester with the ball in his hands, so they converted him to WR and reduced his return duties. Obviously, in retrospect Hester would have had more value returning kicks full time. It looks like the Bears are beginning to accept this fact and are going to maximize his return duties again. So, the Bears are now saying a stud returnman is more valuable than an OK WR (the basic tradeoff they are making). If this is true, it could be a decent way to close the gap in value from "traditional" skill players to the return game. How good does a returnman have to be to be worth as much as a stud WR or RB? Obviously, the Bears thought the stud WR was worth more than the stud returnman because they made the change to begin with hoping Hester would pan out as a WR. How good would he have to be so that he was a WR first and a returnman second? I'm really not sure. If Hester was a 65/1000/6 type of WR, does he ever handle more than 50% of the the punt return duties?

There's a lots of ways to cut this jib...*** Many guys are returners early in their careers and then when they emerge as full time contributors on offense/defense, they have their return duties reduced/removed*** Guys that are returners for long periods of time have generally been ruled out as full-time contributors on offense/defense*** Anyone arguing that special teams is "1/3" of the game is making a strawman. Of course it's a facet of the game, but the personnel who focus primarily on special teams are generally considered lesser players than those who are mainly on offense/defense.

right first of all, the best players on the team generally don't play ST thats usually the guys that couldn't make the cut on offense or defense so to be fair, with awesome blocking Hester was scoring tds against Bums on S/T, while Charles was playing against the BIG BOYS from the AFC, Big time starters, not S/T Fodder... Its easy to tell who is just starting arguments. Everyone knows Charles is better then hester, More important to the team and changes the game more... Hester lovers you are done... Case Closed its already a fact. Hester scored 14 tds whooopie do he did it against brian munnervill haha geez PERIOD

Havent the chiefs had the easiest schedule the last 2 years?

 

[eakfootball]

I'm not so sure I wouldn't take DeSean over Hester in the return game for next year. Sure Hester has a had a much better career, but I guarantee Jackson has more return TDs next year. Jackson probobly has a better chance at the HOF than Hester since he is an elite receiver and return man. But it is a lost cause since neither Hester, Charles, or Jackson have any shot at getting in. But if I had to rank there chances it would go 1. Charles, 2. Jackson, 3. Hester.

 

[eakfootball]

But the worst thing about the list was Lewis, Reed, and Troy all being in the top 10. The list is about going into 2011, and none of them deserve to be anywhere near that high going into 2011.

 

[DawnBTVS]

The rule change of deeper kickoffs also impacted return men in 1995 on. Also the argument that teams changed their ST style because of Hester is false... guys like Deion Sanders, Metcalf, etc. were making ST coaches change their game plan before Hester came on the scene. The only difference is that Hester gets the national pub and gets national recognition for it.

One thing to point out is that Hester has a ton of contemporary return men who are legit good, if not great. Maybe not at his level but awfully close. It's showing though that in order to reach the HOF, Hester is going to have to pull a Brian Mitchell and return punts (and maybe kickoffs) for at least 13-14 years.

Leon Washington: 7 KR TD in essentially 4 years.

Josh Cribbs: 2 PR and 8 KR TD in 6 years.

Dante Hall: 6 PR and 6 KR TD in 9 years.

Reggie Bush: 4 PR TD in essentially 4 years.

Dez Bryant had 2 PR TD in 2010. Ted Ginn Jr has 2 PR and 2 KR TD in 4 years. Jacoby Ford had 3 kickoff TDs in 2010. LaRod Stephens-Howling had 2 KR TDs in 2010.

If Hester is to make the HOF, he's going to have to prove he not only can dominate the return game but measure extremely superior to his peers in the return game. The fact that he doesn't return kickoffs, IMO, hurts his case more than it could help him. It's no longer enough to say that he scores TDs because as seen above, there are a lot of return men who can "impact" and score 1-2 TDs in a given season.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I'm not so sure I wouldn't take DeSean over Hester in the return game for next year. Sure Hester has a had a much better career, but I guarantee Jackson has more return TDs next year. Jackson probobly has a better chance at the HOF than Hester since he is an elite receiver and return man. But it is a lost cause since neither Hester, Charles, or Jackson have any shot at getting in. But if I had to rank there chances it would go 1. Charles, 2. Jackson, 3. Hester.

It would take Desean Jackson's entire career to eclipse Hester's return TDs just last year.Return TDs:

Hester in 2010=3

Desean Jackson in 2010=1

Jackson in 2009=2

Jackson in 2008=1

Attempts:

Desean Jackson 2008,2009,2010=101

Hester in 2010= 45

Give me a break

 

[DawnBTVS]

It would take Desean Jackson's entire career to eclipse Hester's return TDs just last year.Return TDs:Hester in 2010=3Desean Jackson in 2010=1Jackson in 2009=2Jackson in 2008=1Attemptsesean Jackson 2008,2009,2010=101Hester in 2010= 45Give me a break

Cute that you took out Hester's sharp down turn in 2008 and 2009.... try to paint a better context, for future reference.2008-2010 Total ReturnsDevin Hester: 139 with 3 TD (all the TD came in 2010)DeSean Jackson: 101 with 4 TD (and he only had 2 KR total)

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

It would take Desean Jackson's entire career to eclipse Hester's return TDs just last year.Return TDs:Hester in 2010=3Desean Jackson in 2010=1Jackson in 2009=2Jackson in 2008=1Attemptsesean Jackson 2008,2009,2010=101Hester in 2010= 45Give me a break

Cute that you took out Hester's sharp down turn in 2008 and 2009.... try to paint a better context, for future reference.2008-2010 Total ReturnsDevin Hester: 139 with 3 TD (all the TD came in 2010)DeSean Jackson: 101 with 4 TD (and he only had 2 KR total)

I took nothing out of context.He made a notion that in 2011 Desean will have more TDs. That would make 2010 the biggest evidence. Hester had 3 TDs and Jackson had 1. Jackson had 2 in 2009 and 1 in 2008. To produce more TDs than Hester, Jackson would have to include all of his returns for his ENTIRE career.Hester didn't have any return TDs in 2008 or 2009, I never hid that fact.

 

[DawnBTVS]

True but you're also going under an assumption that Hester will presumably get at least 1 TD in 2011 and more likely 2-3. The issue is that he's already had 2 seasons, back to back and fairly recent, with 0 TD. On the flip side, Jackson has scored at least 1 TD every season so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jackson could score more return TDs than Hester in 2011. I personally would give Jackson a 20% chance at accomplishing that feat but it is doable.

 

[D.J.]

True but you're also going under an assumption that Hester will presumably get at least 1 TD in 2011 and more likely 2-3. The issue is that he's already had 2 seasons, back to back and fairly recent, with 0 TD. On the flip side, Jackson has scored at least 1 TD every season so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jackson could score more return TDs than Hester in 2011. I personally would give Jackson a 20% chance at accomplishing that feat but it is doable.

The years that hester didn't return a kick for a td he was primarily (learning to be) a wr. As soon as they let him primarily return kicks again his production skyrocketed. Every indication is that he will primarily be a kick returner again next year.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

True but you're also going under an assumption that Hester will presumably get at least 1 TD in 2011 and more likely 2-3. The issue is that he's already had 2 seasons, back to back and fairly recent, with 0 TD. On the flip side, Jackson has scored at least 1 TD every season so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jackson could score more return TDs than Hester in 2011. I personally would give Jackson a 20% chance at accomplishing that feat but it is doable.

The years that hester didn't return a kick for a td he was primarily (learning to be) a wr. As soon as they let him primarily return kicks again his production skyrocketed. Every indication is that he will primarily be a kick returner again next year.

This is true.Plus i'm expecting Chicago to bring in some kind of vet WR that will push Hester to WR3 or WR4.

 

[D.J.]

True but you're also going under an assumption that Hester will presumably get at least 1 TD in 2011 and more likely 2-3. The issue is that he's already had 2 seasons, back to back and fairly recent, with 0 TD. On the flip side, Jackson has scored at least 1 TD every season so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jackson could score more return TDs than Hester in 2011. I personally would give Jackson a 20% chance at accomplishing that feat but it is doable.

The years that hester didn't return a kick for a td he was primarily (learning to be) a wr. As soon as they let him primarily return kicks again his production skyrocketed. Every indication is that he will primarily be a kick returner again next year.

This is true.Plus i'm expecting Chicago to bring in some kind of vet WR that will push Hester to WR3 or WR4.

I think it will end up that hester has a package or 2 with the bears offense. I think the true #2 or 3 (depending on if a vet is signed) will be earl bennett.

 

[T with T]

But the worst thing about the list was Lewis, Reed, and Troy all being in the top 10. The list is about going into 2011, and none of them deserve to be anywhere near that high going into 2011.

Troy Polamalu was defensive player of the year, I think he deserves it and Ed reed is a stud 8 int in 10 games, I agree about Ray lewis, if thats the case they should have had L. Tomlinson in the list if they are goin by career, because no one their right mind would say that R. lewis is better then P. willis, J. harrison, D. ware RIGHT NOW goin into 2011... list is totally stupid and holds no weight just something to fill time as it was mentioned earlier, NFL network is bored, they do 24 hr programming, and most of the time its packed full of useless media bs or hotdog eating LOL or nfl yearbook from 20 years ago ... geez. 1973 cleveland browns yearbook YIPPIE LOL

 

[T with T]

I'm not so sure I wouldn't take DeSean over Hester in the return game for next year. Sure Hester has a had a much better career, but I guarantee Jackson has more return TDs next year. Jackson probobly has a better chance at the HOF than Hester since he is an elite receiver and return man. But it is a lost cause since neither Hester, Charles, or Jackson have any shot at getting in. But if I had to rank there chances it would go 1. Charles, 2. Jackson, 3. Hester.

It would take Desean Jackson's entire career to eclipse Hester's return TDs just last year.Return TDs:

Hester in 2010=3

Desean Jackson in 2010=1

Jackson in 2009=2

Jackson in 2008=1

Attempts:

Desean Jackson 2008,2009,2010=101

Hester in 2010= 45

Give me a break

But Desean is 100 times better wr and Hester is just a st guy... thats the diff... Desean is way better then hester

 

[Pipes]

But the worst thing about the list was Lewis, Reed, and Troy all being in the top 10. The list is about going into 2011, and none of them deserve to be anywhere near that high going into 2011.

I agree. I was shocked to see all of these guys ahead of Revis. Patrick Willis was too low and so was Clay Matthews.

 

[Tau837]

Gale Sayers was much better than Hester. He was better in both average and TD rate at both punt returns and kickoff returns, and he ranks #1 all time in kick return TD percentage.

Gale Sayers:

punt returns: 27/391/2 (14.5 avg, 1 TD/13.5 attempts)

kickoff returns: 91/2781/6 (30.6 avg, 1 TD/15.2 attempts)

Devin Hester:

punt returns: 178/2200/10 (12.4 avg, 1 TD/17.8 attempts)

kickoff returns: 113/2724/4 (24.1 avg, 1 TD/28.3 attempts)

It just so happens that Sayers was also an All NFL RB for all 5 of his seasons in which he played more than 2 games, and he is in the HOF. So all of you who so adamantly want the best kick returner in NFL history in the HOF can breathe easy... Sayers is already in.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I'm not so sure I wouldn't take DeSean over Hester in the return game for next year. Sure Hester has a had a much better career, but I guarantee Jackson has more return TDs next year. Jackson probobly has a better chance at the HOF than Hester since he is an elite receiver and return man. But it is a lost cause since neither Hester, Charles, or Jackson have any shot at getting in. But if I had to rank there chances it would go 1. Charles, 2. Jackson, 3. Hester.

It would take Desean Jackson's entire career to eclipse Hester's return TDs just last year.Return TDs:

Hester in 2010=3

Desean Jackson in 2010=1

Jackson in 2009=2

Jackson in 2008=1

Attempts:

Desean Jackson 2008,2009,2010=101

Hester in 2010= 45

Give me a break

But Desean is 100 times better wr and Hester is just a st guy... thats the diff... Desean is way better then hester

Who's arguing WR? Nobody.100 times is facetious. Desean Jackson is overrated as a WR b/c he is flashy, kid had 47 receptions last year...Hester had 40.

 

[GridironMenace]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

an interesting dynamic to gp wirh this point (I'm not really sure who's side I think it supports). The Bears recognized the talent of Hester with the ball in his hands, so they converted him to WR and reduced his return duties. Obviously, in retrospect Hester would have had more value returning kicks full time. It looks like the Bears are beginning to accept this fact and are going to maximize his return duties again. So, the Bears are now saying a stud returnman is more valuable than an OK WR (the basic tradeoff they are making). If this is true, it could be a decent way to close the gap in value from "traditional" skill players to the return game. How good does a returnman have to be to be worth as much as a stud WR or RB? Obviously, the Bears thought the stud WR was worth more than the stud returnman because they made the change to begin with hoping Hester would pan out as a WR. How good would he have to be so that he was a WR first and a returnman second? I'm really not sure. If Hester was a 65/1000/6 type of WR, does he ever handle more than 50% of the the punt return duties?

There's a lots of ways to cut this jib...*** Many guys are returners early in their careers and then when they emerge as full time contributors on offense/defense, they have their return duties reduced/removed*** Guys that are returners for long periods of time have generally been ruled out as full-time contributors on offense/defense*** Anyone arguing that special teams is "1/3" of the game is making a strawman. Of course it's a facet of the game, but the personnel who focus primarily on special teams are generally considered lesser players than those who are mainly on offense/defense.

right first of all, the best players on the team generally don't play ST thats usually the guys that couldn't make the cut on offense or defense so to be fair, with awesome blocking Hester was scoring tds against Bums on S/T, while Charles was playing against the BIG BOYS from the AFC, Big time starters, not S/T Fodder... Its easy to tell who is just starting arguments. Everyone knows Charles is better then hester, More important to the team and changes the game more... Hester lovers you are done... Case Closed its already a fact. Hester scored 14 tds whooopie do he did it against brian munnervill haha geez PERIOD

Havent the chiefs had the easiest schedule the last 2 years?

Shhhh, don't bring up rationale to base an opinion on.

 

[GridironMenace]

I'm not so sure I wouldn't take DeSean over Hester in the return game for next year. Sure Hester has a had a much better career, but I guarantee Jackson has more return TDs next year.

This is just so stupid. Why put yourself out there with this unsubstantiated guesswork. There is nothing to base your opinion on other than blind guesswork. History says that you would be wrong as Hester scores more times per touch than Jackson. Your opinion is baseless. You're entitled to your own opinion, just not your own facts. Please, don't let facts get in the way.

Jackson probobly has a better chance at the HOF than Hester since he is an elite receiver and return man. But it is a lost cause since neither Hester, Charles, or Jackson have any shot at getting in. But if I had to rank there chances it would go 1. Charles, 2. Jackson, 3. Hester.

Wrong again. You guys need to learn to separate the difference between getting into the HoF as a WR, a HB and a ST player. Jackson has no shot of getting into the HoF as a WR. Charles has no shot of getting into the HoF as a HB. Hester has no shot at getting into the HoF as a WR. HOWEVER, Hester is the greatest return man ever. What is so hard to understand about that? Seriously, that shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp. If Hester continues to dominant the return game and give the Bears an incredible field position advantage, he has a great shot at getting in as the first special teams player ever to get in.

 

[GridironMenace]

Definatly a joke and I don't care what anyone says Charles is a stud. He has only Been in the league 3 years obviously he doesn't have that many great seasons but all I know is he dominated last two years with 5.9 ypc and 6.4 ypc... led league in YPC back to back years and is only 24. this list is stupid like multiple scores said, and the list is supposed to be top players of 2011... Your telling me that Hester will be a so called better player then Charles, who is usually top 3 or 4 dynasty pick, your insane if you think that, and secondly HESTER will not, I repeat will not make HOF. He is a crappy receiver and is only a return man.. he really only had one great season. He is Very overrated... All I was trying to do was make that point and I think it was clearly made, List sucks... lets move on..

The fact that you are equating fantasy football dynasty value as your reasoning why Charles is better than Hester is the only joke in this thread. Listen, I don't think you are understanding (or trying to understand) the opposing viewpoint. No one is trying to say that Hester's WR ability is great or even good. The arguments are coming from Hester's game changing ability on punt/kickoff returns and his ability to get into the HoF. He is the best return man ever. There is no one that is even close to him.Look at it like this: who has the better chance to get into the NFL HoF, Charles or Hester? No one in their right mind would say Charles. Hester is much closer and has a much more realistic shot at getting into the HoF. Therefore, Hester is the better pro football player and means more to his team, than Jamaal Charles.

You can spout off about how great Charles' yards per carry are. Big deal. Let me ask you this question: What combination of players would the Kansas City Chiefs rather have: Jamaal Charles and Javier Arenas or Matt Forte and Devin Hester? The Chiefs would made that trade in a heartbeat. The Bears would never make that trade. So stop thinking about this in terms of fantasy football and instead look at it as impact to one's pro football team and ability to replace said players. In other words, Charles can be easily replaced with similar ability from any number of players in the league (AP, DeAngelo, Forte, McCoy, Foster; I can go on and name 25-30 players that are either better than Charles or can do a pretty good job at replacing him. No one and I mean no one can replace Hester.

you are sounding like an idiot the more and more you talk and spout off... There is not 25-30 guys that can do what charles does bud, you must be a bears fan and their are guys who are close to hester in the PR game Check Cribbs, Desean jackson... you are acting immature and your argument holds no weight, Im not thinking in terms of Dynasty football rankings jerk, Im talking about impacting a football game, team so you should check yourself bud, and I do think charles has a better chance at the HOF then Hester sorry pal

First of all, I never said that there are 25-30 guys that are as good as Charles. I said that there are a lot of players that are either better than Charles, on the same level as Charles or can put up similar numbers as Charles. I listed about 15 players in another post, go ahead and find it. You can't come close to replacing Hester with another player (and that includes Cribbs and Jackson). Hester is on a whole other level.Secondly, you are thinking about it in terms of dynasty football rankings. You said this: "Charles, who is usually top 3 or 4 dynasty pick." I didn't say that. You did. It's just an ignorant statement. Separate impact of fantasy football and start thinking about it in terms of impact on the professional football field. Even on Hesters' limited touches, he impacts the game more than Charles.

Thirdly, I'm not a Bears fan. I'm a Viking fan. I have a lot of friends that are Bears fans and it hurts to compliment the Bears as I dislike them tremendously. However, I am not a homer and I'll tell it like it is.

 

[GridironMenace]

One of the things people aren't acknowledging about Hester is that he's a returner first and foremost because he's not good enough to be a star as a receiver. Most special teams aces are that because they're not good enough to start regularly and excel as skill position players. While Hester has given it the ol' college try as a starter at WR, no one would argue he's been a very good receiver, much less a great one.

What's your point? He's the best special teams player in the history of the NFL. No one here is arguing that he is a good WR. He's an average (or even below average) WR. He has a legit shot at the HoF as the first return man to get in. Charles doesn't have a shot in h*ll to get in the HoF as a player at any position.Wood 2 questions:1) Which player is more replaceable: Charles or Hester?2) Charles and Arenas for Hester and Forte. Does KC do that deal?

How do you know that Charles doesn't have a shot in Hell to get in???? he is only 24 and in his 4th year. what if he has another 6-8 1000 yard seasons then what are you gonna say dude... You sound so idiotic right now You should just go back to where you came from, your argument holds no water, We learned here that the rankings are futile and no one cares what NFL network has to say or gridiron so go marry hester and shut up

If Hester has another 7 1,000 yard seasons, I'll say that he's a good HB. Even if he does that- which is doubtful- but for the sake of arguement let's say that he does, he still wouldn't get in. He won't have anywhere near the TD's numbers and another 7,000 yards will put him at about 9,500 yards and no one near the HoF. Charles will have a good career, but not HoF worthy as HB.The bar is so high to make the HoF as a HB that Charles can't meet it. Whereas Hester is the best return man ever. Everything he does from this point forward just adds additional distance between him and other return men. If the HoF committee recognizes that, Hester has a legit shot as the first special teams player ever to be enshrined. I feel like a broken record because no one is willing to accept this FACT. Not opinion. Fact.