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Did Manning choke against the Patriots (1 Viewer)

Did he choke in the playoff game vs. the Pats?

  • Yes, he choked against the Patriots

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, but he has choked in the past

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, it's not choking, it's just getting beaten

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

bostonfred

Footballguy
In the Pats/Colts game thread, a number of people said Manning choked, while a number of others said that the Colts just got beaten by a better team. I'm curious what the people on this board think. I know what Joe thinks:

Congrats to the Pats. Clearly, the better team won. As is said above, this wasn't a choke (although I'm sure you'll hear a lot of that from folks that don't understand the game). This was a great team thoroughly beating a very good team. It wasn't close.

I like New England to go all the way if they can keep this up.

J
Here's what I think. Manning's a great passer, and a true artist of the quarterback position. He has a set of tools at his disposal from the play action pass, to reading defenses, to calling the right play to beat those defenses. But he's not the best QB in the league. His stats are the best, but he's also surrounded by the best weapons. Harrison, Wayne, Clark and James are all first round picks, he's had Pollard for his entire career, and Stokley's a top quality WR3. Manning blows up against the bottom ten Ds in the league all year, until he runs into a good D. He plays great football in the confines of a dome, but he can't play outside. And yes, he chokes in the playoffs.

Manning's numbers in the 2004 regular season AVERAGED over 300 yards and 3 TDs per game, while getting intercepted just 10 times. Against the Patriots, he had 238 yards, 0 TDs and 1 INT.

Manning's career numbers in the regular season:

265 yards, 1.7 TDs, 1 INT.

Manning's career numbers in the five playoff losses/"chokes":

yards/TDs/INTs

227/0/0

194/1/0

137/0/2

237/1/4

238/0/1

For an average of 207 yards per game, with 2 TDs and 7 INTs.

Manning's certainly been off his game in those big games.

Of course, it's a small sample size. And as a quarterback, it's likely his numbers would be worse in losses, so it's not exactly a fair sample size.

So does Manning shoulder responsibility for the losses, and his way-below-average performances? Or is it just a case of him running into better teams?

 
I say he choked, along with the whole team -- he didn't play that bad, but if he's that good, with that many weapons at his disposal, you play great in the biggest game of the year. He didn't play great, to me that's a choke (though not nearly as bad as last season).

 
I think Manning was more pissed off that he did not throw a TD pass.
I think you need new material. When it's not witty or humorous the first time, it's not going to get better when repeated.
 
I don't see where he could've played much better. Colts' wr's dropped 4 or 5 balls in the first half and Rhodes had the ball taken from him on a screen. All of these prevented the Colts from scoring early and getting a lead which was crucial. I don't remember many bad passes Peyton had....where could he of done more? The big question is why did the Coaches decide not to run the no huddle offense that allows Peyton to pick plays and get a tempo going. They played very conservatively and couldn't stop the run which was also huge. Peyton had a pick put it was with 4 seconds left in a 17 point game

 
I don't remember many bad passes Peyton had....where could he of done more?
You don't remember the numerous passes out of bounds or to Edgerrin's feet? A couple of times there was no pass rusher near him and he still threw it away. Manning doesn't usually do that.
 
Hi fred,I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02J

 
Peyton Manning is as good as they come when he gets protection and has open receivers. But he is no Brett Favre when it comes to creating something out of nothing. He isn't mobile, and doesn't throw well on the run. To me, that isn't choking. That is just Peyton being Peyton. A lot like Warner in his heyday. He can take a good team over the top, but he can't take a team on his shoulders and carry the day (like Favre).

 
Hi fred,I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02J
I know football… and I also know that any offense that scores 3 points in a game did not come to play. Did not have the intensity to dig deep... It’s a flat out embarrassment. This from an offense that was one of the best of all time……An offense, who’s leader SHATTERED the leagues all time passing touchdown record , should be able to get the ball across the goaling, no matter who the defense is. His Team did not score a TD. They scored a whopping 3 points. He choked. Defend him all you want…The colts D held the Pats to 20 Points. The great Peyton Manning should be able to score 21. He did nothing today and he has arguably the games best skill payers of any team in the NFL at his disposal. 3 points…..ya he choked
 
Hi fred,I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02J
I know football… and I also know that any offense that scores 3 points in a game did not come to play. Did not have the intensity to dig deep... It’s a flat out embarrassment. This from an offense that was one of the best of all time……An offense, who’s leader SHATTERED the leagues all time passing touchdown record , should be able to get the ball across the goaling, no matter who the defense is. His Team did not score a TD. They scored a whopping 3 points. He choked. Defend him all you want…The colts D held the Pats to 20 Points. The great Peyton Manning should be able to score 21. He did nothing today and he has arguably the games best skill payers of any team in the NFL at his disposal. 3 points…..ya he choked
:goodposting:
 
Hi fred,I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02J
Joe,Thanks for responding. I have to say I'm a little offended by the implication though. I think Manning choked. I also think I know a thing or two about football. A quarter of the people who have responded to this poll so far agree. I think it's possible to see Manning "choking" without necessarily taking glee in it. I do think that Manning is a paper tiger and a regular season champion. I think he's a true artist with the skills he has. But I also think that his skills make him good at beating bad teams, and bad at beating good teams. His brand of football - changing his play at the line of scrimmage based on the defense - is only as good as his ability to read the opposing defense, and that's why he struggles against top defenses. It's certainly what stopped him today. I think people who judge QB play based purely on statistics really don't know much about football. I don't think that's what you're doing, and I won't go so far as to say that people who think Manning didn't choke don't know much about football. I'm a huge fan of yours and I know you're an excellent communicator, which is why I read meaning into the words you chose here, and the fact you're sticking strongly to them after I made my post. Am I correct in thinking that you're saying I don't know anything about football? And what's your counterargument that Manning didn't choke? ThanksFred
 
I don't remember many bad passes Peyton had....where could he of done more?
You don't remember the numerous passes out of bounds or to Edgerrin's feet? A couple of times there was no pass rusher near him and he still threw it away. Manning doesn't usually do that.
No I don't remember the numerous passes out of bounds. I do remember passes at Edge's feet, but most of those were because nothing was open on the screen and he didn't want to force anything or get sacked. Sometimes even if there's no pressure yet you throw a scree pass away because if you wait too long the lineman are going to be down field and it will be illegal. Hurons, Peyton wasn't the only one responsible for the lack of scoring. The New England defense played great and Indy's defense got run over. The Colts barely got the ball in the second half.
 
Colts are an indoor, dome team. They played a very good Pats team, but the weather did them in. Playin' AFC teams in the north, you'd better be ready for brutal conditions or have home field advantage in your nice cozy dome. Colts didn't have either.You'd think Dungy would get that by now.

 
His annual choke job. Learn how to manage a game. Learn how to make something happen when the pocket collapses. Manning is the most overrated QB in the history of football.

 
I don't remember many bad passes Peyton had....where could he of done more?
You don't remember the numerous passes out of bounds or to Edgerrin's feet? A couple of times there was no pass rusher near him and he still threw it away. Manning doesn't usually do that.
Hurons, Peyton wasn't the only one responsible for the lack of scoring. The New England defense played great and Indy's defense got run over. The Colts barely got the ball in the second half.
Make all the excuses you want, Manning threw the pill 42 times and couldn’t even score one freaking TD.
 
Hi fred,I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02J
Joe,Thanks for responding. I have to say I'm a little offended by the implication though. I think Manning choked. I also think I know a thing or two about football. A quarter of the people who have responded to this poll so far agree. I think it's possible to see Manning "choking" without necessarily taking glee in it. I do think that Manning is a paper tiger and a regular season champion. I think he's a true artist with the skills he has. But I also think that his skills make him good at beating bad teams, and bad at beating good teams. His brand of football - changing his play at the line of scrimmage based on the defense - is only as good as his ability to read the opposing defense, and that's why he struggles against top defenses. It's certainly what stopped him today. I think people who judge QB play based purely on statistics really don't know much about football. I don't think that's what you're doing, and I won't go so far as to say that people who think Manning didn't choke don't know much about football. I'm a huge fan of yours and I know you're an excellent communicator, which is why I read meaning into the words you chose here, and the fact you're sticking strongly to them after I made my post. Am I correct in thinking that you're saying I don't know anything about football? And what's your counterargument that Manning didn't choke? ThanksFred
Come to think of it, I'm offended also. Joe, you're saying that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they're talking about.Shannon Sharpe said Manning looked awful - using you're logic this future HOF does not know much about the sport because he disagrees with your opinion. I think that's not only dead wrong, but also incredibly egotistical.I think Manning did choke to an extent, though the rest of his team let him down even more. Using you're logic I'm not only wrong but also ignorant of the sport of football. I see your viewpoint, respect it, but choose to disagree. I'd like to believe that you respect people the same way, but it does not appear so when you make such a statement.APOLOGIZE NOW!!!!! :boxing:
 
Depends on your definition of choke. But Manning never seems to do jack against top notch teams. Thats why I laugh when I hear him compared with the best QBs of all time. Guys like Elway and Favre bring their A Game against the best. Manning folds like a girl.

 
I don't remember many bad passes Peyton had....where could he of done more?
You don't remember the numerous passes out of bounds or to Edgerrin's feet? A couple of times there was no pass rusher near him and he still threw it away. Manning doesn't usually do that.
No I don't remember the numerous passes out of bounds. I do remember passes at Edge's feet, but most of those were because nothing was open on the screen and he didn't want to force anything or get sacked. Sometimes even if there's no pressure yet you throw a scree pass away because if you wait too long the lineman are going to be down field and it will be illegal.
I agree that Manning was forced to throw some passes away. But part of Manning's game is his ability to read defenses and audible into the correct play. When there's no down linemen, how do you stick with a pass play?
Hurons, Peyton wasn't the only one responsible for the lack of scoring. The New England defense played great and Indy's defense got run over. The Colts barely got the ball in the second half.
I agree that the Colts defense didn't give Manning much time in the second half. But Manning had plenty of opportunities to score in the first half, or sustain his own drives, or play aggressively when the team was down late, and he didn't. Look at the play by play. The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four. The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion. The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time. He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch. The fourth drive started with a Manning fumble on first down, followed by consecutive incomplete passes. The fifth drive ended on a 2nd and 17 pass to a well covered Dominic Rhodes for -2 yards - Rhodes was blanketed by Bruschi the whole way, so even if Bruschi doesn't strip him, it's still probably a loss or small gain when they need 17. The sixth drive ended with a field goal just before the half, but Manning and the Colts failed to call a timeout and because of it, they ended up kicking a field goal instead of going for it on third and goal from the 5 yard line. The Colts could have taken a shot at going into the locker room with a lead at halftime but had to settle for the field goal instead. The Patriots went three and out on their first possession of the second half, and the Colts had a chance to get some momentum. Instead, Manning's first drive of the second half ended when Manning threw a three yard pass to Stokley on third and four. He then sat on the bench for over 9 minutes, and ended when he threw a pass at Edge's feet, then threw the next pass out of bounds. Sure, he would have been risking an interception by throwing into coverage, but his defense was getting run over. He had to sustain a drive. The next drive, he was down three scores with seven minutes left, but instead of taking his shots downfield, he threw little dink and dunk stuff to Edge and Wayne. Wayne fumbled, then when Manning got the ball back with three minutes left and down by three scores, he started throwing 5-10 yard passes to get a passing touchdown in the closing minutes instead of trying to win the game.
 
I dunno, you would think with the offense they have they could score atleast 20 points. Besides getting the ball rammed down their throat, how can the blame be laid on the Defense?

 
zero Td's from a guy that threw almost 50 during the season is a choke. Part of that has to do with the unbelievable gameplanning skill of the patriot coaches and execution of that gameplan by the players. However, you cant score 3 points with one of the top 5 scoring offenses of all time and consider it not choking.

 
Colts are an indoor, dome team. They played a very good Pats team, but the weather did them in. Playin' AFC teams in the north, you'd better be ready for brutal conditions or have home field advantage in your nice cozy dome. Colts didn't have either.
Agreed.New England ran the ball down their throat and controlled the clock. Peyton Manning had nothing to do with the fact that the Colts defense couldn't stop Dillon and Faulk. You have to run the football and be able to stop the run in the playoffs and the Colts did neither. :brush:
 
How about we give some props to the NE defense and the way they played. Yes Peyton did not play his best game but NE was at home and played a great defensive game with great defensive schemes. Peyton is one of the best QB's in the game and he had a bad game. You can call it a choke if you want but the guy just had a bad game. Do we say Brady had an amazing game because he threw one 5 yd TD and had only 144 yds? NO it's that his team ran the ball effectively and the defense played exceptional. I have mentioned this before but great teams like NE make their QB look good. If INDY's offense has a bad game or even a mediocre game they will more often than not lose while on the other hand NE offense can have a mediocre game maybe even a bad game and there defense can get them a win or give them an opportunity to win.

 
If you watched the game, Manning didn't play poorly, New England's D played outstanding. Manning took what they gave him, which wasn't much. There were a few dropped balls which didn't help, but wouldn't have made the difference in the end.Manning will win a SB before he's done, but they'll need to have homefield advantage to do it, as dome teams just don't do well outdoors on the road.

 
Hi fred,

I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02

J
Joe,Thanks for responding. I have to say I'm a little offended by the implication though. I think Manning choked. I also think I know a thing or two about football. A quarter of the people who have responded to this poll so far agree.

I think it's possible to see Manning "choking" without necessarily taking glee in it. I do think that Manning is a paper tiger and a regular season champion. I think he's a true artist with the skills he has. But I also think that his skills make him good at beating bad teams, and bad at beating good teams. His brand of football - changing his play at the line of scrimmage based on the defense - is only as good as his ability to read the opposing defense, and that's why he struggles against top defenses. It's certainly what stopped him today.

I think people who judge QB play based purely on statistics really don't know much about football. I don't think that's what you're doing, and I won't go so far as to say that people who think Manning didn't choke don't know much about football.

I'm a huge fan of yours and I know you're an excellent communicator, which is why I read meaning into the words you chose here, and the fact you're sticking strongly to them after I made my post. Am I correct in thinking that you're saying I don't know anything about football? And what's your counterargument that Manning didn't choke?

Thanks

Fred
Hi Fred,Sorry, don't mean to offend anyone. I just don't see how anyone watching the game I watched would label this as a choke. I guess that's what I mean on the "knowing football" thing. There is a huge but subtle difference between choking and being beaten by a superior team. I think the latter happened today. Just my .02

I actually find it really interesting why folks, even Pats fans seem so intent on :rotflmao: at Manning like he choked when in reality, they should realize it was the fantastic Patriot defense that caused most of it.

J

 
Hi fred,I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02J
For me the definition of choking is not being able to win the big game when you are supposedly the best QB in the league. The posisition that is supposed to be able to take teams to the next level. It really makes me laugh with all the Manning supporters out there saying he didn't choke, yet he has never been able to beat his archrival teams. Not Florida at UofT and not the Pats in the AFC. If he is as great as everyone says then why can he not beat the Pats? Because he folds under pressure IMO. He is supposed to be the best prepared, the best audibler, the best at reading Ds in the NFL, yet can't take the Pats out. To me that's the choke job, when it's time for him to take it to the next level, and running the best O in the league and one of the best in the historoy of the NFL, he can't do it. The Pats aren't even the best D in the league, they have big injuries in their secondary (no Ty Law) yet Manning can't take advantage of it? That's not a choke job?
 
The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four. The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion. The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time. He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch.
Hi Fred,This is exactly what I'm talking about. An incompletion to Pollard is a choke? Troy Brown making a great play to break up a pass to Stokely is a choke? A great play by the defense causing a fumble that Saturday recovers is a choke? Bruschi's fantastic strip of Rhodes is a choke?Those are exactly what I'm talking about. The Patriots played fantastic. It really seems odd that folks aren't focusing on that.J
 
I agree Joe, there's definately a difference between choking and just being beaten by a better team.Scott Norwood choked.............what I saw today was a confident NE team physically dominate the Colts.Did Manning do something spectacular, no, but it's my opinion NE took that option away.By the way Fred, I like your point about Manning vs. weak and strong teams. The way Indy plays, especially in domes, they exploit weak teams quickly. But when they match up against a solid defense, whether it jacksonville or new england, they struggle. I don't think that's choking though, it's just being outplayed.I don't think Indy ever (Manning era) goes to the SB unless they get homefield advantage.

 
Hi fred,I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02J
For me the definition of choking is not being able to win the big game when you are supposedly the best QB in the league. The posisition that is supposed to be able to take teams to the next level. It really makes me laugh with all the Manning supporters out there saying he didn't choke, yet he has never been able to beat his archrival teams. Not Florida at UofT and not the Pats in the AFC. If he is as great as everyone says then why can he not beat the Pats? Because he folds under pressure IMO. He is supposed to be the best prepared, the best audibler, the best at reading Ds in the NFL, yet can't take the Pats out. To me that's the choke job, when it's time for him to take it to the next level, and running the best O in the league and one of the best in the historoy of the NFL, he can't do it. The Pats aren't even the best D in the league, they have big injuries in their secondary (no Ty Law) yet Manning can't take advantage of it? That's not a choke job?
Hi tt,My answer to that is very simple: Because the Pats team played better on defense than the Colts team did on offense. I'd put the Patriots defense defense up against any D in the league. Granted, Belichick said the 2nd half was as good as they've played all year and they brought it all together, but today, they were a shut down defense and shut down a great offense.J
 
Hi fred,

I'll stick strongly to what I said above. If one thinks Manning choked in this game they have a way different definition of choking than most do. New England just soundly beat this team. There will be people that hate Manning for whatever reason that take glee in calling a "choke" but I don't think anyone that knows a lot about the game would say that. Just my .02

J
Joe,Thanks for responding. I have to say I'm a little offended by the implication though. I think Manning choked. I also think I know a thing or two about football. A quarter of the people who have responded to this poll so far agree.

I think it's possible to see Manning "choking" without necessarily taking glee in it. I do think that Manning is a paper tiger and a regular season champion. I think he's a true artist with the skills he has. But I also think that his skills make him good at beating bad teams, and bad at beating good teams. His brand of football - changing his play at the line of scrimmage based on the defense - is only as good as his ability to read the opposing defense, and that's why he struggles against top defenses. It's certainly what stopped him today.

I think people who judge QB play based purely on statistics really don't know much about football. I don't think that's what you're doing, and I won't go so far as to say that people who think Manning didn't choke don't know much about football.

I'm a huge fan of yours and I know you're an excellent communicator, which is why I read meaning into the words you chose here, and the fact you're sticking strongly to them after I made my post. Am I correct in thinking that you're saying I don't know anything about football? And what's your counterargument that Manning didn't choke?

Thanks

Fred
Hi Fred,Sorry, don't mean to offend anyone. I just don't see how anyone watching the game I watched would label this as a choke. I guess that's what I mean on the "knowing football" thing. There is a huge but subtle difference between choking and being beaten by a superior team. I think the latter happened today. Just my .02

I actually find it really interesting why folks, even Pats fans seem so intent on :rotflmao: at Manning like he choked when in reality, they should realize it was the fantastic Patriot defense that caused most of it.

J
That same 8th ranked Pats D? The one that is ranked 17th against the pass? The one that has an injured secondary without Ty Law starting a WR at CB? That fantastic D? Manning should have been able to shred that D. He shredded the Denver secondary and that was a much much better secondary than the one the Pats put on the field.

Manning has never been able to win the big games....he always falls on his face. Look at his college career performance against Florida.

 
The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four. The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion. The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time. He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch.
Hi Fred,This is exactly what I'm talking about. An incompletion to Pollard is a choke? Troy Brown making a great play to break up a pass to Stokely is a choke? A great play by the defense causing a fumble that Saturday recovers is a choke? Bruschi's fantastic strip of Rhodes is a choke?Those are exactly what I'm talking about. The Patriots played fantastic. It really seems odd that folks aren't focusing on that.J
That's because they've been doing it since he was in Tennessee.It's exactly like before Phil Mickelson won the Master's, they couldn't stop saying that he'll never win a major, he's going to be the best player ever to not win a major..........well he won and then they found something else to focus on.It's the way it is. When Manning does win a championship, the haters will just find another issue, whatever that may be.
 
The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four. The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion. The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time. He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch.
Hi Fred,This is exactly what I'm talking about. An incompletion to Pollard is a choke? Troy Brown making a great play to break up a pass to Stokely is a choke? A great play by the defense causing a fumble that Saturday recovers is a choke? Bruschi's fantastic strip of Rhodes is a choke?Those are exactly what I'm talking about. The Patriots played fantastic. It really seems odd that folks aren't focusing on that.J
Did they? Or was it Manning choking. His career stats against smart Ds is not good. Why was it that he could never get the Gators off his back? The same with the Pats. The oVVn him, plain and simple. He folds under the pressure IMO.
 
Manning should have been able to shred that D. He shredded the Denver secondary and that was a much much better secondary than the one the Pats put on the field. Manning has never been able to win the big games....he always falls on his face. Look at his college career performance against Florida.
You know what, even if he would have won this game, you wouldn't have said this was the big game and he still would have the label. But since he lost, now this was the big game, definately :bs: , can't have it both ways.The Colts are definately not as good outdoors, I believe Manning's record outdoors just fell below .500 today.
 
The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four.  The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion.  The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time.  He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch.
Hi Fred,This is exactly what I'm talking about. An incompletion to Pollard is a choke? Troy Brown making a great play to break up a pass to Stokely is a choke? A great play by the defense causing a fumble that Saturday recovers is a choke? Bruschi's fantastic strip of Rhodes is a choke?Those are exactly what I'm talking about. The Patriots played fantastic. It really seems odd that folks aren't focusing on that.J
Did they? Or was it Manning choking. His career stats against smart Ds is not good. Why was it that he could never get the Gators off his back? The same with the Pats. The oVVn him, plain and simple. He folds under the pressure IMO.
What's any QB's stats vs. good D's going to be? Common sense is going to tell you that your numbers are going to be down vs. a good defense.
 
The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four. The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion. The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time. He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch.
Hi Fred,This is exactly what I'm talking about. An incompletion to Pollard is a choke? Troy Brown making a great play to break up a pass to Stokely is a choke? A great play by the defense causing a fumble that Saturday recovers is a choke? Bruschi's fantastic strip of Rhodes is a choke?Those are exactly what I'm talking about. The Patriots played fantastic. It really seems odd that folks aren't focusing on that.J
That's because they've been doing it since he was in Tennessee.It's exactly like before Phil Mickelson won the Master's, they couldn't stop saying that he'll never win a major, he's going to be the best player ever to not win a major..........well he won and then they found something else to focus on.It's the way it is. When Manning does win a championship, the haters will just find another issue, whatever that may be.
I don't think he ever will. When the pressure is on he folds. Phil won he major the year Tiger fell of the face of the Earth, yes there was pressure on Phil to win, but Tiger wasn't breathing down his neck. Tiger's game fell WAY off, and Phil was able to win a major without the pressure of Tiger.The Florida games where always a HUGE game for Tenn and Manning could never win those. I don't thing Manning has the killer instinct in him, the ability to take the team on his shoulders and will it to win.
 
Manning should have been able to shred that D. He shredded the Denver secondary and that was a much much better secondary than the one the Pats put on the field. Manning has never been able to win the big games....he always falls on his face. Look at his college career performance against Florida.
You know what, even if he would have won this game, you wouldn't have said this was the big game and he still would have the label. But since he lost, now this was the big game, definately :bs: , can't have it both ways.The Colts are definately not as good outdoors, I believe Manning's record outdoors just fell below .500 today.
No I wouldn't have, if he won today they would have gone to the SB, but I don't think he will ever get there. And he played his collge career outdoors so that excuse is crap IMO. He can't win against the archrival teams, never has been able to.
 
That same 8th ranked Pats D? The one that is ranked 17th against the pass? The one that has an injured secondary without Ty Law starting a WR at CB? That fantastic D?
Hi tt,Yes, that fantastic defense. Fortunately, they throw out the regular season for the playoffs. It's all about today. And that was clearly the #1 defense out there today. They may not be there next week, but today, those guys were fantastic.

And LOL at the Manning big game stuff. When he lost to the Titans that was always a "can't win the big game." Until he beat them consistently. Then it was just a "regular" game. Losing the first round of the playoffs was "a big game". Until he blew Denver out in the first round of the playoffs two years running. Then the first round playoff games mysteriously became just a "regular" game. Following this pattern, he'll win a division game next year but it won't be a big game then. He'll lose the AFC championship and he won't be able to win the big game. Then he'll win the AFC division game one day but it will suddenly not be a big game anymore. He'll lose a Super Bowl and he'll still be the guy who can't win the big game. The only way he'll ever be able to rise above the people who want to change the definition of a "big game" is if he wins the SB. Dunno if that'll ever happen but that's what it'll take to stop people from changing definitions. :rotflmao:

J

 
While I don't feel Manning choked, I think you could make the argument that the Colts coaching staff choked. The Colts have an outstanding group of atheletes (how good is Freeney???!?!?!?) and were dominated for ~55 minutes. I don't understand why we didn't see more hurry up offense from the Colts as it has worked in the past and it worked today in limited action.I like and respect Tony Dungy (despite his prudish comments about the MNF TO skit) but you really have to wonder when a group with this much talent gets their tails handed to them. I'll be the first to talk up the Patriots amazing defense, but there appear to be some serious gameday issues in Indy. :football:

 
While I don't feel Manning choked, I think you could make the argument that the Colts coaching staff choked. The Colts have an outstanding group of atheletes (how good is Freeney???!?!?!?) and were dominated for ~55 minutes. I don't understand why we didn't see more hurry up offense from the Colts as it has worked in the past and it worked today in limited action.I like and respect Tony Dungy (despite his prudish comments about the MNF TO skit) but you really have to wonder when a group with this much talent gets their tails handed to them. I'll be the first to talk up the Patriots amazing defense, but there appear to be some serious gameday issues in Indy. :football:
Becuase hurry-up offense doesn't work well in poor weather conditions.Manning didn't choke - THE COLTS WERE OUTPLAYED. Players & coaches alike. NE was on thier game and Indy was not prepared for conditions.
 
That same 8th ranked Pats D? The one that is ranked 17th against the pass? The one that has an injured secondary without Ty Law starting a WR at CB? That fantastic D?
Hi tt,Yes, that fantastic defense. Fortunately, they throw out the regular season for the playoffs. It's all about today. And that was clearly the #1 defense out there today. They may not be there next week, but today, those guys were fantastic.

And LOL at the Manning big game stuff. When he lost to the Titans that was always a "can't win the big game." Until he beat them consistently. Then it was just a "regular" game. Losing the first round of the playoffs was "a big game". Until he blew Denver out in the first round of the playoffs two years running. Then the first round playoff games mysteriously became just a "regular" game. Following this pattern, he'll win a division game next year but it won't be a big game then. He'll lose the AFC championship and he won't be able to win the big game. Then he'll win the AFC division game one day but it will suddenly not be a big game anymore. He'll lose a Super Bowl and he'll still be the guy who can't win the big game. The only way he'll ever be able to rise above the people who want to change the definition of a "big game" is if he wins the SB. Dunno if that'll ever happen but that's what it'll take to stop people from changing definitions. :rotflmao:

J
I'm not a Manning hater, I think he's an awesome QB, but if you're THAT great, a future HOF, running the best offense in the league, you expect him to be able to put up some points. Pats D played incredible, no doubt, but Manning and company did not play very well. The team as a whole was outgunned in ever facet of the game, and Manning was a part of that.You can't even fathom why some think Manning didn't play as well as he could have to keep them in this game?

 
Along the "can't win the big game" thing, Manning is much like the Eagles. When they've lost the NFC championship game, you have people (again who honestly, I don't think know much about football) rail on how they can't win a big game. The truth is they've won plenty of big games. They just conveniently want to focus on the NFC championship game. I guess that's just human nature.J

 
JoeThanks for the clarification. I guess I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I think the Patriots D played a great game, and I think they got in his head. I was surprised that Manning wasn't aggressive even when the game was out of hand. He's the league MVP, and he's surrounded with great weapons, so I expect more out of him. I think he threw the ball for three when he needed four too often. I think the Colts receivers dropped some balls, but I was surprised when Manning zipped short distance fastballs at his receivers in the snow a couple times, too. I think the Patriots got a great combination of pressure and coverage, but was surprised when Manning threw the ball away when he wasn't pressured. I'm also trying to focus on what Manning did. I think Manning's a paper tiger, and has been for years. I have been saying the same thing all season, and have heard back that Manning's turned the corner. Today Manning showed he hasn't turned the corner, at least not to the point of being able to beat the Patriots. It's not a question of ":rotflmao: at Manning", so much as an ongoing discussion of Manning's credentials as an almost certain future hall of famer. To me, Manning's benefitted from having a great set of players around him on offense and from bouncing around a couple of weak divisions. I think he's great at what he does, but that he's not a winner, and to me, that takes a lot away from his credentials. But to your point that there is a huge but subtle difference between choking and being beaten by a superior team, it sounds like what you're saying is that this is the fifth time he's run into a superior team in the playoffs. Does that mean Manning just can't pass against superior teams? Doesn't that take the shine off his gaudy numbers against weaker teams?

 
You can't even fathom why some think Manning didn't play as well as he could have to keep them in this game?
Hi gman,Oh for sure. Manning could have clearly played better. There were several incompletions that were his fault. I didn't see any glaring mistakes that were costly but I'd bet he'll be the first to say he could have played better. But that's a far cry from a choke I think. J
 
You can't even fathom why some think Manning didn't play as well as he could have to keep them in this game?
Hi gman,Oh for sure. Manning could have clearly played better. There were several incompletions that were his fault. I didn't see any glaring mistakes that were costly but I'd bet he'll be the first to say he could have played better. But that's a far cry from a choke I think. J
I'll take that. I think we're reasonably close anyway. I do think that's a choke, albeit a minor one. If you don't play great in the big games and you lose, and it's not even close, it's at least partly your fault (especially if you're the most heralded QB in the game).
 
That same 8th ranked Pats D? The one that is ranked 17th against the pass? The one that has an injured secondary without Ty Law starting a WR at CB? That fantastic D?
Hi tt,Yes, that fantastic defense. Fortunately, they throw out the regular season for the playoffs. It's all about today. And that was clearly the #1 defense out there today. They may not be there next week, but today, those guys were fantastic.

And LOL at the Manning big game stuff. When he lost to the Titans that was always a "can't win the big game." Until he beat them consistently. Then it was just a "regular" game. Losing the first round of the playoffs was "a big game". Until he blew Denver out in the first round of the playoffs two years running. Then the first round playoff games mysteriously became just a "regular" game. Following this pattern, he'll win a division game next year but it won't be a big game then. He'll lose the AFC championship and he won't be able to win the big game. Then he'll win the AFC division game one day but it will suddenly not be a big game anymore. He'll lose a Super Bowl and he'll still be the guy who can't win the big game. The only way he'll ever be able to rise above the people who want to change the definition of a "big game" is if he wins the SB. Dunno if that'll ever happen but that's what it'll take to stop people from changing definitions. :rotflmao:

J
The big games are those that you are supposed to win. Manning is supposed to be heads and shoulders above all other QBs in the league, yet he regularly gets bounced by the Pats. It seems to me that he always folds under pressure. Which is when he plays the Pats, and when he played Florida.I am not sure I can be any clearer. There have been many MANY games that Favre has single handedly won for the Packers, including those where his team was outplayed by the other team (He was even able to beat Min twice this year and win the North with a team that wasn't good). He has the ability to pick the team up and carry them to a win. Same thing Jordan has, yeat Manning who is supposed to be the greatest QB in the league, and who has been annointed the best ever to play can't do this. How on earth can he not throw for one touchdown today? Hell it was 6-3 at half. He should have been able to put together one drive to go take the lead...yet he didn't. He runs the offense, not anyone else. He has the ability and authority to call the plays he sees fit, and he should take full blame when his offense can't score.

 
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The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four. The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion. The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time. He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch.
Hi Fred,This is exactly what I'm talking about. An incompletion to Pollard is a choke? Troy Brown making a great play to break up a pass to Stokely is a choke? A great play by the defense causing a fumble that Saturday recovers is a choke? Bruschi's fantastic strip of Rhodes is a choke?
Nope. But I'll bold some of the things I thought were bad plays, and put them in context of how every single drive ended. Even their field goal drive at the end of the half was a little bit of a brain fart. Please note - these are the last plays of each drive for the entire game. Not just a couple plays I cherry picked as examples of where I think he choked. If he has a couple bad plays here and there, ok. But to have all of these plays in one game where they score three total points, yeah, that's a choke.

The first drive ended when Manning threw a 2 yard pass to Pollard on third and four. The second drive ended on a Manning incompletion. The third drive ended on consecutive incompletions to Stokley, who was covered by Troy Brown at the time. He clearly misdiagnosed that as a mismatch. The fourth drive started with a Manning fumble on first down, followed by consecutive incomplete passes. The fifth drive ended on a 2nd and 17 pass to a well covered Dominic Rhodes for -2 yards - Rhodes was blanketed by Bruschi the whole way, so even if Bruschi doesn't strip him, it's still probably a loss or small gain when they need 17. The sixth drive ended with a field goal just before the half, but Manning and the Colts failed to call a timeout and because of it, they ended up kicking a field goal instead of going for it on third and goal from the 5 yard line. The Colts could have taken a shot at going into the locker room with a lead at halftime but had to settle for the field goal instead.

The Patriots went three and out on their first possession of the second half, and the Colts had a chance to get some momentum. Instead, Manning's first drive of the second half ended when Manning threw a three yard pass to Stokley on third and four. He then sat on the bench for over 9 minutes, and ended when he threw a pass at Edge's feet, then threw the next pass out of bounds. Sure, he would have been risking an interception by throwing into coverage, but his defense was getting run over. He had to sustain a drive. The next drive, he was down three scores with seven minutes left, but instead of taking his shots downfield, he threw little dink and dunk stuff to Edge and Wayne. Wayne fumbled, then when Manning got the ball back with three minutes left and down by three scores, he started throwing 5-10 yard passes to get a passing touchdown in the closing minutes instead of trying to win the game.

You could make a case for any of those plays. Sometimes you throw short of the first down, even on third and short, to try to set up a big gain. Sometimes you have to throw the ball away. Sometimes you have to admit you're outmatched at the end of the game. But in the context of an entire game, he had way too many bad plays.

 
You can't even fathom why some think Manning didn't play as well as he could have to keep them in this game?
Hi gman,Oh for sure. Manning could have clearly played better. There were several incompletions that were his fault. I didn't see any glaring mistakes that were costly but I'd bet he'll be the first to say he could have played better. But that's a far cry from a choke I think. J
I guess the difference is, I think that if the MVP of the league plays a bad game in the playoffs, that's a choke. What do you think constitutes a choke?
 
You can't even fathom why some think Manning didn't play as well as he could have to keep them in this game?
Hi gman,Oh for sure. Manning could have clearly played better. There were several incompletions that were his fault. I didn't see any glaring mistakes that were costly but I'd bet he'll be the first to say he could have played better. But that's a far cry from a choke I think. J
The supposed best player in the game is supposed to give his team a chance to win, Manning didn't do that. Period. When your best player plays that poorly then yes it's a choke.
 

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