Do Leinart/Young fit the profile of a 1st Rndr? (1 Viewer)

[milfordshane]

Before we get started I would like to say that I'm neither a Leinart/Young supporter nor hater. I'm not sure where I stand on their potential which is the reason for this thread.

Alright, so I'm watchhing the ESPN Draft Special on Tuesday night when Merril Hodge says he doesn't believe Matt Leinart or Vince Young is worthy of a 1st round pick.

Crazy talk right? Let's see.

Below are all the QBs taken in the 1st from '86-'03. I've left out the '04-05 guys because I think you can make the argument that the jury is still out.

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 3 Jim Everett QB Purdue

1 12 Chuck Long QB Iowa

1 1 Vinny Testaverde QB Miami

1 6 Kelly Stouffer QB Colorado State

1 13 Chris Miller QB Oregon

1 26 Jim Harbaugh QB Michigan

1 1 Troy Aikman QB UCLA

1 1 Jeff George QB Illinois

1 7 Andre Ware QB Houston

1 16 Dan McGwire QB San Diego State

1 24 Todd Marinovich QB Southern California

1 6 David Klingler QB Houston

1 25 Tommy Maddox QB UCLA

1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State

1 2 Rick Mirer QB Notre Dame

1 3 Heath Shuler QB Tennessee

1 6 Trent Dilfer QB Fresno State

1 3 Steve McNair QB Alcorn State

1 5 Kerry Collins QB Penn State

1 26 Jim Druckenmiller QB Virginia Tech

1 1 Peyton Manning QB Tennessee

1 2 Ryan Leaf QB Washington State

1 1 Tim Couch QB Kentucky

1 2 Donovan McNabb QB Syracuse

1 3 Akili Smith QB Oregon

1 11 Daunte Culpepper QB Central Florida

1 12 Cade McNown QB UCLA

1 18 Chad Pennington QB Marshall

1 1 Michael Vick QB Virginia Tech

1 1 David Carr QB Fresno State

1 3 Joey Harrington QB Oregon

1 32 Patrick Ramsey QB Tulane

Is there a player on this list that had similar questions (arm strength, intelligenc etc...) or college career as Leinart/Young who went on to live up to his draft position?

What player on this list does Leinart/Young remind you of most?Why?

Do these two guys remind you of HOFers or Busts?

Try to compare and contrast if you can.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Warden Samuel Norton: Do you enjoy working in the laundry?

Andy Dufresne: No sir, not especially.

 

[Texasmouth]

Vince Young= Randall Cunningham

Matt Lienart= Left Handed Drew Bledsoe

Jay Cutler= Mike McMahon

 

[AnonymousBob]

Note to self-be sure to put Merril Hodge on mental block.

 

[Texasmouth]

Note to self-be sure to put Merril Hodge on mental block.

Hodge is a complete idiot. If this guy weren't a former player, he wouldn't have a job. Just because you played football doesn't mean youa re a good analyst. He sucks. Hate the guy.

 

[milfordshane]

Note to self-be sure to put Merril Hodge on mental block.

Hodge is a complete idiot. If this guy weren't a former player, he wouldn't have a job. Just because you played football doesn't mean youa re a good analyst. He sucks. Hate the guy.

I'm with you but I guess what made me put up the post was I couldn't remember a top 10 quarterback who had arm strength questions going on to have a HOF type career. Guys like Montanna and Brady fell because of the issue and Leinart seems to be immune.The closest I could come was Aikman and Bledsoe, but I think both of those guys arm strength was highly regarded when they came out. Does anyone remember specifically what their "buzz" was when they came out?

Now there are plenty of guys on the list that didn't fair very well who had suspect arms.

 

[-OZ-]

On talent alone, VY is a 1st round pick, any year.

On performance and intelligence, Leinart is.

I prefer this year's crop of QBs to last year's, but neither comes close to 2004.

ETA: I'd compare Leinart to Aikman, somehow I think Dallas is pleased with that pick. I'd also compare him to Tom Brady, obviously wasn't "worthy of a 1st" at the time, but he sure as hell would be now.

 

[Imedos]

Matt Lienart= Left Handed Drew Bledsoe

don't quite get that one.Bledsoe has/had a cannon for an arm. And Leinart is more mobile.

 

[WhoDat]

On talent alone, VY is a 1st round pick, any year.On performance and intelligence, Leinart is.

Well written.While the brain trust at ESPN was conducting their show, the NFL Network had there weekly draft show, which focused on offense last night. The consensus was that Young in terms of physical measurables and athletic talent is in his own class. NOBODY that has entered the NFL draft at the QB position has EVER had that combination of size, speed and athletic talent Young presents. That plus his ceiling make him a mortal lock for the first round. It was also agreed that Leinart's matriculation at USC in a pro system; his intelligence and decision making ability minimize his lack of arm strength. However, it was also agreed he does not have a Howizter attached to his left shoulder but the fact he is so pro ready and polished makes him a lock for the first round. Arm strength on Leinart was a split decision. Leinart as a first rounder was also a split decision. Mayock would not stop pimping Cutler and Kirwan was adamant about his feelings towards Leinhart, while being down on Cutler. It was split that Leinart was either a Top 10 or first round pick. Hodge, while often comical in appearance and comment, needs to either be ignored or taken with a substantial grain of salt. And what was with Wingo's hair? Do he, Hodge and Woody all get their dye jobs at the same salon?

 

[CalBear]

Note to self-be sure to put Merril Hodge on mental block.

Hodge is a complete idiot. If this guy weren't a former player, he wouldn't have a job. Just because you played football doesn't mean youa re a good analyst. He sucks. Hate the guy.

I'm with you but I guess what made me put up the post was I couldn't remember a top 10 quarterback who had arm strength questions going on to have a HOF type career. Guys like Montanna and Brady fell because of the issue and Leinart seems to be immune.

Your line of thinking is fallacious. Hall of Fame players are extremely rare, and they are individuals; whether a particular QB makes the Hall of Fame has nothing to do with whether he was regarded as similar to Peyton Manning or to Ryan Leaf coming out of college. On your entire list, there are only two QBs who had or are having a relatively certain HoF career (Manning and Aikman), and two others who might still make it (McNabb and Culpepper); those four QBs are as different from each other as they are from Leinart and Young, so you can't really compare them.

 

[milfordshane]

Note to self-be sure to put Merril Hodge on mental block.

Hodge is a complete idiot. If this guy weren't a former player, he wouldn't have a job. Just because you played football doesn't mean youa re a good analyst. He sucks. Hate the guy.

I'm with you but I guess what made me put up the post was I couldn't remember a top 10 quarterback who had arm strength questions going on to have a HOF type career. Guys like Montanna and Brady fell because of the issue and Leinart seems to be immune.

Your line of thinking is fallacious. Hall of Fame players are extremely rare, and they are individuals; whether a particular QB makes the Hall of Fame has nothing to do with whether he was regarded as similar to Peyton Manning or to Ryan Leaf coming out of college. On your entire list, there are only two QBs who had or are having a relatively certain HoF career (Manning and Aikman), and two others who might still make it (McNabb and Culpepper); those four QBs are as different from each other as they are from Leinart and Young, so you can't really compare them.

Maybe, but name a QB who went in the top 10, with"arm strength" questions that went on to have a career that justified his draft position. I couldn't. Can you?I'm aware that comparing players is sometimes like apples and oranges. That's mainly just to start the discussion but I coudn't name a guy who fit the above criteria.

By the way, all the players you named had above average to strong arms coming out of college.

 

[CalBear]

Maybe, but name a QB who went in the top 10, with"arm strength" questions that went on to have a career that justified his draft position. I couldn't. Can you?

How many top 10 QBs went on to have a career that justified their draft position? Very few. The sample size is miniscule. And I don't see any reason to discount QBs like Brady and Montana just because they weren't selected in the first round; Leinart's likelihood of success is probably higher being drafted in the first round than it would be if here were drafted in the sixth (due to opportunity).

 

[fruity pebbles]

Note to self-be sure to put Merril Hodge on mental block.

Hodge is a complete idiot. If this guy weren't a former player, he wouldn't have a job. Just because you played football doesn't mean youa re a good analyst. He sucks. Hate the guy.

I'm with you but I guess what made me put up the post was I couldn't remember a top 10 quarterback who had arm strength questions going on to have a HOF type career. Guys like Montanna and Brady fell because of the issue and Leinart seems to be immune.

Your line of thinking is fallacious. Hall of Fame players are extremely rare, and they are individuals; whether a particular QB makes the Hall of Fame has nothing to do with whether he was regarded as similar to Peyton Manning or to Ryan Leaf coming out of college. On your entire list, there are only two QBs who had or are having a relatively certain HoF career (Manning and Aikman), and two others who might still make it (McNabb and Culpepper); those four QBs are as different from each other as they are from Leinart and Young, so you can't really compare them.

Maybe, but name a QB who went in the top 10, with"arm strength" questions that went on to have a career that justified his draft position. I couldn't. Can you?I'm aware that comparing players is sometimes like apples and oranges. That's mainly just to start the discussion but I coudn't name a guy who fit the above criteria.

By the way, all the players you named had above average to strong arms coming out of college.

Peyton Manning was never known for his arm strength. As far as arm strength I think Leinart compares pretty favorably to Peyton.

 

[milfordshane]

Maybe, but name  a QB who went in the top 10, with"arm strength" questions that went on to have a career that justified his draft position. I couldn't. Can you?

How many top 10 QBs went on to have a career that justified their draft position? Very few. The sample size is miniscule. And I don't see any reason to discount QBs like Brady and Montana just because they weren't selected in the first round; Leinart's likelihood of success is probably higher being drafted in the first round than it would be if here were drafted in the sixth (due to opportunity).

Depends on your criteria, but I would argue that over the past say 15-18 years there's been 10-15 guys who turned out to be franchise type QBs (several productive years as starter, All Pro, possible MVP) Very few if any of those guys had arm questions.Look there's no doubt these two guys are going in the 1st round, and I'm not saying they both won't be very productive. Ithink what I'm saying is that you could make the argument that Leinart's arm strength should be pushing him farther down on draft boards than it is.

As far as the Peyton Manning comparison, I'm a life long Colts fan and I don't remember there being questions about Manning "making all the throws" when he came out. If there was nd you have a link I'll be glad to eat my words

Also feel free to offer examples outside the "current sample size". I just didn't want to make to large a list and turn people off.

 

[milfordshane]

Note to self-be sure to put Merril Hodge on mental block.

Hodge is a complete idiot. If this guy weren't a former player, he wouldn't have a job. Just because you played football doesn't mean youa re a good analyst. He sucks. Hate the guy.

I'm with you but I guess what made me put up the post was I couldn't remember a top 10 quarterback who had arm strength questions going on to have a HOF type career. Guys like Montanna and Brady fell because of the issue and Leinart seems to be immune.

Your line of thinking is fallacious. Hall of Fame players are extremely rare, and they are individuals; whether a particular QB makes the Hall of Fame has nothing to do with whether he was regarded as similar to Peyton Manning or to Ryan Leaf coming out of college. On your entire list, there are only two QBs who had or are having a relatively certain HoF career (Manning and Aikman), and two others who might still make it (McNabb and Culpepper); those four QBs are as different from each other as they are from Leinart and Young, so you can't really compare them.

Maybe, but name a QB who went in the top 10, with"arm strength" questions that went on to have a career that justified his draft position. I couldn't. Can you?I'm aware that comparing players is sometimes like apples and oranges. That's mainly just to start the discussion but I coudn't name a guy who fit the above criteria.

By the way, all the players you named had above average to strong arms coming out of college.

Peyton Manning was never known for his arm strength. As far as arm strength I think Leinart compares pretty favorably to Peyton.

Not being known for your arm strength and people questioning you arm strength are two different things

 

[Rev]

Vince Young= Randall Cunningham

Matt Lienart= Left Handed Drew Bledsoe

Jay Cutler= Mike McMahon

I don't see any similarity there at all. McMahan is far more mobile and athletic, while Cutler is stronger, slower, and has more of a quarterback's presence in the pocket. Nice call on the other two though.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'm really not sure where this thread is going. For a lot of reasons. But I'll just add this:

Lots of QBs bust in the first round

Leinart appears to grade out more favorably than most of those listed

Leinart's arm is much stronger than the critics seem to think

Chad Pennington could never throw it very far, Steve McNair never had much zip, and they both went on to have some pretty excellent seasons (McNair with a Co-MVP, Pennington with a passer rating award).

 

[cstu]

Vince Young= Randall Cunningham

Matt Lienart= Left Handed Drew Bledsoe

Jay Cutler= Mike McMahon

I don't see any similarity there at all. McMahan is far more mobile and athletic, while Cutler is stronger, slower, and has more of a quarterback's presence in the pocket. Nice call on the other two though.

The only one that's close is the first one. With the other two it makes me wonder what he knows about Leinart or Cutler. Bledsoe has a cannon for an arm, Leinart doesn't. A decent comparison would be Mark Brunell who is left-handed and has a similar sort of game. Cutler has a strong arm too and isn't that mobile, better than most QB's but he's not a scramber like McMahon. Favre is the obvious comparison, but he's a lot Bledsoe IMO but able to run a little better.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

I think they all have the talent to be an NFL QB.

How much they succeed will depend on factors well beyond their control. Coaching and team consistency will play a big part in it.

If Leinart goes to a team when the HC changes every 2-3 years and never gets any receivers worth a damn, he certainly will fail.

How good would Manning have been, had he been drafted by San Diego instead of Indy who did their darndest to build a team around him?

 

[CapnJB]

If anyone in interested you can check out old draft notes at SI/CNN.

Of note....

He has good arm strength, but not necessarily a “gun” that you might expect from a QB at the top of the draft.. He has adequate mobility and good overall AA, although he is not a scrambler by nature. He has done an excellent job of getting the most out of his abilities, but he is not quite as natural a player as Leaf.

Leaf.LEAF!

 

[WhoDat]

Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play.

Are you kidding?

 

[Imedos]

I am not as impressed with Matt Leinart as the majority here...if one of these three busts, it will be Leinart. Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play. And the NFL is all about pressure situations.

And exactly what pressure situations has Cutler excelled in?

 

[Synthesizer]

My personal opinion is that taking a QB in the 1st round is too much of a risk to justify the reward. If a team takes a QB who ends up being a bust, it's very difficult to rid themselves of the situation (benching the player, cutting the player, etc). And even if the QB succeeds, the team ends up in salary cap hell just trying to keep him around (look at the Manning and McNabb situations).

Bottom line: use the 1st round pick on a different position, try to find a decent QB in free agency. Less risk, just as much reward.

 

[Pipes]

Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play. And the NFL is all about pressure situations.

2005 Orange Bowl down???

 

[WhoDat]

The kid played QB at the nation's #1 program, while under a giant ******* microscope, in the second largest media market in America and went something like 30-2 or 32-4 as a starter. Oh, he was in 3 national championship games and went 1-1 as a starter.

Having played in a program that was nearly as dominant (OU mid 80's), I am speaking directly from personal experience on this one. That kid could not have done anything better or more while at USC.

I have no opinion on his bust factor but in regards to Leinart and pressure you could not be any more wrong with your assessment.

 

[GregR_2]

I don't think I can name 32 other players who I think are likely to provide more total value to an NFL team than Young or Leinart, so I'd have to say they fit the profile for a 1st round QB.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'd rather have a relative unknown in pressure situations, than one who I have seen fail in them...

That's interesting. Why is that?

 

[GregR_2]

Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play.

Are you kidding?

You can say that again. Last minute come from behind victory against ND, the majority of which Leinart was responsible for (audible, perfect pass to put them in scoring position).

23-of-34 passes for 327 yards and three touchdowns with no interceptions in the Rose Bowl against Michigan.

365 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT against the #2 defense in the nation last year against UT? If White picks up the first down Leinart gets all the glory that VY gets from the masses.

I have no clue how anyone can say he has not performed well in pressure situations.

 

[cstu]

Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play.

Are you kidding?

You can always spot the guy whose only experience watching Leinart was the Rose Bowl. The guy is clutch and my only question is how he'll perform when his team isn't dominate offensively.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Oh, he was in 3 national championship games and went 1-1 as a starter.

Two national championship games right?

 

[WhoDat]

You can always spot the guy whose only experience watching Leinart was the Rose Bowl.

Even in that defeat against Texas Leinart had a solid game. He took a shot directly to his head in the first half and rumor was he played with a mild concussion. 29/40 365 yards 72.5% 9.1 YPC 1 TD 1 INT

 

[WhoDat]

Two national championship games right?

Yeah, but those do not matter. Not a big enough stage.

 

[GregR_2]

Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play.

Are you kidding?

You can always spot the guy whose only experience watching Leinart was the Rose Bowl. The guy is clutch and my only question is how he'll perform when his team isn't dominate offensively.

I don't agree with that even. I don't think he could have even watched the Rose Bowl. How do you hang 350 yards with only 1 pick on that defense and be considered as not performing well?

 

[Imedos]

I am not as impressed with Matt Leinart as the majority here...if one of these three busts, it will be Leinart. Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play. And the NFL is all about pressure situations.

And exactly what pressure situations has Cutler excelled in?

I'd rather have a relative unknown in pressure situations, than one who I have seen fail in them...But in just comparing the two's Pro Day's, Cutler made himself some money under very adverse weather conditions. And keep in mind there is more to this bust factor than just pressure situations...Cutler also has the better arm of the two.

Okay, so Cutler is an unknown. But what leads to the blanket assumption that Leinart has failed in pressure situations?Cutler has pretty much never been in a meaningful game. Every single game Leinart has played in has had NC implications, and he performed well in almost all of them.

Yes, Cutler had a good proday, but even that proday came away with mixed reviews. I guess you can criticise Leinart for not taking his proday seriously enough, but what's really important is the individual workouts for him. He knows he is going high, so he only has to impress the teams he wants to impress. Cutler NEEDED a good proday.

I can see some of the criticisms of Leinart:

- not a strong arm(I don't think it's weak, but he doesn't have a cannon)

- dominated in part because of all the talent around him

- injury concern

Those are valid concerns even if they do turn out to be unfounded, but him not being able to handle pressure? Sorry, but the reason he is going that high is because of his proven ability to handle pressure.

 

[cstu]

Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play.

Are you kidding?

You can always spot the guy whose only experience watching Leinart was the Rose Bowl. The guy is clutch and my only question is how he'll perform when his team isn't dominate offensively.

I don't agree with that even. I don't think he could have even watched the Rose Bowl. How do you hang 350 yards with only 1 pick on that defense and be considered as not performing well?

I know he performed well in that game, but they lost. That's about the only way that I could even fathom someone not thinking Leinart is clutch.

 

[WhoDat]

I understand the concept of where Leinart played ball, but I disagree that where he played is really all that different than any other big time college. Yes, Leinart does have the big game experience, but from what I have seen his game (not his team's game...big difference) suffers under the pressure. I am referring to the player and not the team...while you appear to be referring more to the team's accomplishments and hanging those on Leinart's hat. Don't forget that USC will likely be dropping 4 offensive starters (Justice, White) into the first round of the upcoming draft, including Reggie Bush, the likely #1 overall pick.

I am just not impressed with Leinart's abilities under pressure. His ball tends to float more and he makes bad decisions...fortunately for Leinart, the talent on USC can and did more than make up for his mistakes.

Who you played for; how you played for that school and how you lead that team matter. They matter a great deal. Playing QB at USC is currently more pressure packed than any other school besides OU, Florida, FSU, Miami, Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State and there might be a few I have missed. Leinart made the reads. Leinart made the throws. Leinart lead the huddle. Leinart lived and played in a biosphere at USC, which is located in Hollywood, that guarantees the media and social trappings of a starting gig in the NFL will be secondary. Nothing he has not already seen many, many times. Oh, he also played in a meaningful game every...single...time he stepped onto the football field. That will come in handy come Sunday too. Culter has no experience or qualifications to handle the media circus he is about to be thrown into and, as was just stated, never played in a game that really meant a damn thing. Sorry, but that annual battle against UT is not exactly the same thing as a national championship game. Leinart's football acumen and on field experience is EXACTLY why and what makes him so valuable to an NFL franchise. His ceiling might not be as high as Young or Cutler's but trust his floor is that much higher. He is so much deeper into his maturation as a player that his step into the pro game should only in theory be a short step. The same case cannot be made for Young or Cutler.

As far as the talent on the field, the USC team that crushed my Sooners had a WR corp made mostly of freshman and sophmores. Pretty sure Bush and White were not as long in the tooth either. Let me guess. That team won because their defense had so many future pros on it. Most of the kids catching footballs for Leinart that season had just come off the high school field.

Your emphasis on the pro day is misfounded. It is a small component of a player getting drafted and trust the scouts, coaches and general managers are far more interested in what the player did on the field in pads versus what his 3 cone time was. Cutler needed a great pro day, as was also suggested, Leinart did not. Leinart's pro day was not that bad either. This comes down to the it factor and Young, if any of the three, is the guy winning that race.

Leinart left college having gone 1-1 in national championship games and gone 1-2 in the Heisman voting. He was also on that other national championship team. That is 3 appearances in the big game and two trips to New York. Most college players do not get either. I have heard all the J. White jokes before so no need to pile on...

USC was good because of Leinart not because he happened to be backed by a great team. I never saw Bush read a blitz; call an audible and make the throw. At a minimum that point is a wash.

He is not about to go K. Dorsey in the NFL.

 

[loqutis]

If anyone in interested you can check out old draft notes at SI/CNN.

Of note....

He has good arm strength, but not necessarily a “gun” that you might expect from a QB at the top of the draft.. He has adequate mobility and good overall AA, although he is not a scrambler by nature. He has done an excellent job of getting the most out of his abilities, but he is not quite as natural a player as Leaf.

Leaf.LEAF!

Here's the line I liked on LeafSummary

There are no physical or athletic limitations to hold Leaf back from becoming a great NFL QB. There is a huge upside with Leaf, and it is conceivable that he could be one of the best young QB’s in the game in 2-3 years. However, there appears to be some minor nagging questions in the area of maturity and his mental approach to the game. He is perceived as not always an easy guy to work with, and he tends to beat to his own drummer...As good as he is, he can have some streaks on the field where he looks like he has forgotten everything he has been taught...There seems to be a nagging question here that something might be missing, but it may be hard to verbalize it...

let me help

HE'S A BABY!

 

[Pipes]

Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play.

Are you kidding?

You can always spot the guy whose only experience watching Leinart was the Rose Bowl. The guy is clutch and my only question is how he'll perform when his team isn't dominate offensively.

I don't agree with that even. I don't think he could have even watched the Rose Bowl. How do you hang 350 yards with only 1 pick on that defense and be considered as not performing well?

@ your stats...Leinart threw for 3 touchdowns, 0 interceptions and 233 yards versus UCLA back in December 2005...looks real good, right? But it doesn't tell the story of the game...Reggie Bush carried USC to the win in that one, not Leinart. And when that game was close Leinart played badly...poor decisions, hanging balls etc. He does this often under game pressure...but the other players on his team makes up for it.

What about the final drive at Notre Dame? He had an incredible throw on 4th down and had 2 crucial scrambles one of which was the final touchdown. Talk about moxi.

 

[WhoDat]

I understand the concept of where Leinart played ball, but I disagree that where he played is really all that different than any other big time college. Yes, Leinart does have the big game experience, but from what I have seen his game (not his team's game...big difference) suffers under the pressure. I am referring to the player and not the team...while you appear to be referring more to the team's accomplishments and hanging those on Leinart's hat. Don't forget that USC will likely be dropping 4 offensive starters (Justice, White) into the first round of the upcoming draft, including Reggie Bush, the likely #1 overall pick.

I am just not impressed with Leinart's abilities under pressure. His ball tends to float more and he makes bad decisions...fortunately for Leinart, the talent on USC can and did more than make up for his mistakes.

Who you played for; how you played for that school and how you lead that team matter. They matter a great deal. Playing QB at USC is currently more pressure packed than any other school besides OU, Florida, FSU, Miami, Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State and there might be a few I have missed. Leinart made the reads. Leinart made the throws. Leinart lead the huddle. Leinart lived and played in a biosphere at USC, which is located in Hollywood, that guarantees the media and social trappings of a starting gig in the NFL will be secondary. Nothing he has not already seen many, many times. Oh, he also played in a meaningful game every...single...time he stepped onto the football field. That will come in handy come Sunday too. Culter has no experience or qualifications to handle the media circus he is about to be thrown into and, as was just stated, never played in a game that really meant a damn thing. Sorry, but that annual battle against UT is not exactly the same thing as a national championship game. Leinart's football acumen and on field experience is EXACTLY why and what makes him so valuable to an NFL franchise. His ceiling might not be as high as Young or Cutler's but trust his floor is that much higher. He is so much deeper into his maturation as a player that his step into the pro game should only in theory be a short step. The same case cannot be made for Young or Cutler.

As far as the talent on the field, the USC team that crushed my Sooners had a WR corp made mostly of freshman and sophmores. Pretty sure Bush and White were not as long in the tooth either. Let me guess. That team won because their defense had so many future pros on it. Most of the kids catching footballs for Leinart that season had just come off the high school field.

Your emphasis on the pro day is misfounded. It is a small component of a player getting drafted and trust the scouts, coaches and general managers are far more interested in what the player did on the field in pads versus what his 3 cone time was. Cutler needed a great pro day, as was also suggested, Leinart did not. Leinart's pro day was not that bad either. This comes down to the it factor and Young, if any of the three, is the guy winning that race.

Leinart left college having gone 1-1 in national championship games and gone 1-2 in the Heisman voting. He was also on that other national championship team. That is 3 appearances in the big game and two trips to New York. Most college players do not get either. I have heard all the J. White jokes before so no need to pile on...

USC was good because of Leinart not because he happened to be backed by a great team. I never saw Bush read a blitz; call an audible and make the throw. At a minimum that point is a wash.

He is not about to go K. Dorsey in the NFL.

You make some valid points to your side of the debate, and some not so valid points. I'll obviously go after the latter...While it sounds good to imply Leinart had a weak receiving corps in 2004, we all remember 1st round pick BMW's record setting year at the WR position. He physically dominated DBs at the college level that year.

Mike Williams WAS NOT on the 2004 team that thrashed OU. I was speaking specifically about that season and game. He was on the 2003 team. Go check the roster and WR. Leinart carried that offense that season.

As for your Leinart winning the Heisman point. Well we all know this means nothing when it comes to being a top NFL Quarterback. Jason White (Oklahoma), Eric Crouch (Nebraska), Chris Weinke (Florida State), Danny Wuerffel (Florida), Gino Torreta (Miami), Ty Detmer (Brigham Young) and Andre Ware (Houston) have all proven this over roughly the past 15 years.

The two best comparisons I can come up with to compare Leinart to are Rick Mirer (Notre Dame) and Todd Blackledge (Penn State). Mirer being drafted as the 2nd overall pick behind Drew Bledsoe in 1993, Blackledge was the 7th overall pick by Kansas City in the famous 1983 draft loaded with first round quarterbacks (Elway, Marino, Kelley, O'Brien, Eason). Both Quarterbacks played on very good high profile teams and were lead by excellent running games. Mirer with Jerome Bettis and Blackledge with Curt Warner. Both Quarterbacks were highly rated in college and early first round picks in the NFL. Neither player was a successfull NFL Quarterback and both players were early first round busts by NFL standards.

The common denominator is that while both Quarterbacks failed by NFL standards, their running backs were highly successfull by those same NFL standards...so yes running backs can carry a team's offense and make the quarterback, despite not calling audibles or throwing the football.

The same points you made about Leinart are many of the same points that were being made about Rick Mirer and Todd Blackledge...

My task wtih your comments were directly pointed at your comment regarding Leinart and his ability to perform under pressure, as they are completely off base. I played in 3 straight Orange Bowl games. I have first hand experience playing in that game for those stakes. I played with a program as dominant as USC currently is and I am telling you from personal experience Leinart, which is speaking directly about his maturity both in regards to on and off the field situations, is more groomed and prepared to handle the pressures of the NFL than just about every kid in the draft.

I also spent a couple years in scouting and a short stint providing legal advice to an agent. I sat on both sides of the table when it came to player evaluation; grading measurables; what that means; how that data is extrapalated and the pro day is not that important to a player with a resume and pedigree like Leinart's. I don't give rat's ### what he did or did not do a couple of Sunday's ago that was noted by a timer, scale or defined in terms of feet or inches. That kid proved he has the mental capacity to handle the starting job of an NFL QB, which is the point I am debating with you...pressure and his ability to perform under it. When it mattered most, that kid got it done damn near every time on Saturdays and all the hat/T-Shirt games.

So despite his career W-L record; personal accolades; glowing references from his peers and teammates; fawning praises of all of his coaches and a general consesus among anyone currently associated with tracking talent for the NFL that ALL agree he is the most Sunday ready quarterback you have come to the conclusion he is bad under pressure because he floated a couple throws in games that USC eventually won and he had a so-so pro day.

We are going to have to do the proverbially agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'd rather have a relative unknown in pressure situations, than one who I have seen fail in them...

That's interesting. Why is that?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I'm trying to make up my mind on Leinart,

Pros:

Incredible polish, very smart QB who's excelled been in a pro style system for 3 years, was the star QB on a passing team that was 30-2 or better, great accuracy, good pocket presence, very calm and makes good decisions at the end of games. He makes great use his weapons and allows his playmakers to make play and has good size for an NFL QB.

Cons:

Does not have incredible arm strength. Not a fast QB.

I'm thinking 2nd rounder and he'll probably be a bust there, right guys?

 

[Texasmouth]

Vince Young= Randall Cunningham

Matt Lienart= Left Handed Drew Bledsoe

Jay Cutler= Mike McMahon

I don't see any similarity there at all. McMahan is far more mobile and athletic, while Cutler is stronger, slower, and has more of a quarterback's presence in the pocket. Nice call on the other two though.

The only one that's close is the first one. With the other two it makes me wonder what he knows about Leinart or Cutler. Bledsoe has a cannon for an arm, Leinart doesn't. A decent comparison would be Mark Brunell who is left-handed and has a similar sort of game. Cutler has a strong arm too and isn't that mobile, better than most QB's but he's not a scramber like McMahon. Favre is the obvious comparison, but he's a lot Bledsoe IMO but able to run a little better.

Lienart is a drop back style passer. He isn't mobile. Where are you guys getting that from? He ran one of the slowest 40 times for a guy his size. The guy isn't as much of a statue as Bledsoe but he is pretty darn close. It is easy to say he was scrambling around in college but not when guys like Dwight Freeney are chasing him. Bledsoe was a lot more mobile when he was Lienarts age. Lienart may not have as strong of an arm as Bledsoe but the way they move is really similar. Brunell was a really mobile QB, Lienart is no where near as mobile as Brunell. Cutler is mobile. Cutler does run. Most of the highlights I have seen of the guy were of him making plays on the run. He plays at the same type of school as McMahon did. McMahon has a good arm. That isn't his problem.

I have only seen Cutler on tape, I didn't watch any of his games, maybe you did. Sorry if you are the Cutler expert. From what I have seen and read of him, he reminds me of Mike McMahon when he first got to Detroit.

 

[Texasmouth]

By the way, not knocking Lienart. I think he may do well in the NFL.

Cutler, I have my doubts.

I think VY can be a great QB if he is put into the right situation and given some time to learn.

 

[Aaronur]

I understand the concept of where Leinart played ball, but I disagree that where he played is really all that different than any other big time college. Yes, Leinart does have the big game experience, but from what I have seen his game (not his team's game...big difference) suffers under the pressure. I am referring to the player and not the team...while you appear to be referring more to the team's accomplishments and hanging those on Leinart's hat. Don't forget that USC will likely be dropping 4 offensive starters (Justice, White) into the first round of the upcoming draft, including Reggie Bush, the likely #1 overall pick.

I am just not impressed with Leinart's abilities under pressure. His ball tends to float more and he makes bad decisions...fortunately for Leinart, the talent on USC can and did more than make up for his mistakes.

Who you played for; how you played for that school and how you lead that team matter. They matter a great deal. Playing QB at USC is currently more pressure packed than any other school besides OU, Florida, FSU, Miami, Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State and there might be a few I have missed. Leinart made the reads. Leinart made the throws. Leinart lead the huddle. Leinart lived and played in a biosphere at USC, which is located in Hollywood, that guarantees the media and social trappings of a starting gig in the NFL will be secondary. Nothing he has not already seen many, many times. Oh, he also played in a meaningful game every...single...time he stepped onto the football field. That will come in handy come Sunday too. Culter has no experience or qualifications to handle the media circus he is about to be thrown into and, as was just stated, never played in a game that really meant a damn thing. Sorry, but that annual battle against UT is not exactly the same thing as a national championship game. Leinart's football acumen and on field experience is EXACTLY why and what makes him so valuable to an NFL franchise. His ceiling might not be as high as Young or Cutler's but trust his floor is that much higher. He is so much deeper into his maturation as a player that his step into the pro game should only in theory be a short step. The same case cannot be made for Young or Cutler.

As far as the talent on the field, the USC team that crushed my Sooners had a WR corp made mostly of freshman and sophmores. Pretty sure Bush and White were not as long in the tooth either. Let me guess. That team won because their defense had so many future pros on it. Most of the kids catching footballs for Leinart that season had just come off the high school field.

Your emphasis on the pro day is misfounded. It is a small component of a player getting drafted and trust the scouts, coaches and general managers are far more interested in what the player did on the field in pads versus what his 3 cone time was. Cutler needed a great pro day, as was also suggested, Leinart did not. Leinart's pro day was not that bad either. This comes down to the it factor and Young, if any of the three, is the guy winning that race.

Leinart left college having gone 1-1 in national championship games and gone 1-2 in the Heisman voting. He was also on that other national championship team. That is 3 appearances in the big game and two trips to New York. Most college players do not get either. I have heard all the J. White jokes before so no need to pile on...

USC was good because of Leinart not because he happened to be backed by a great team. I never saw Bush read a blitz; call an audible and make the throw. At a minimum that point is a wash.

He is not about to go K. Dorsey in the NFL.

You make some valid points to your side of the debate, and some not so valid points. I'll obviously go after the latter...While it sounds good to imply Leinart had a weak receiving corps in 2004, we all remember 1st round pick BMW's record setting year at the WR position. He physically dominated DBs at the college level that year.

Mike Williams WAS NOT on the 2004 team that thrashed OU. I was speaking specifically about that season and game. He was on the 2003 team. Go check the roster and WR. Leinart carried that offense that season.

As for your Leinart winning the Heisman point. Well we all know this means nothing when it comes to being a top NFL Quarterback. Jason White (Oklahoma), Eric Crouch (Nebraska), Chris Weinke (Florida State), Danny Wuerffel (Florida), Gino Torreta (Miami), Ty Detmer (Brigham Young) and Andre Ware (Houston) have all proven this over roughly the past 15 years.

The two best comparisons I can come up with to compare Leinart to are Rick Mirer (Notre Dame) and Todd Blackledge (Penn State). Mirer being drafted as the 2nd overall pick behind Drew Bledsoe in 1993, Blackledge was the 7th overall pick by Kansas City in the famous 1983 draft loaded with first round quarterbacks (Elway, Marino, Kelley, O'Brien, Eason). Both Quarterbacks played on very good high profile teams and were lead by excellent running games. Mirer with Jerome Bettis and Blackledge with Curt Warner. Both Quarterbacks were highly rated in college and early first round picks in the NFL. Neither player was a successfull NFL Quarterback and both players were early first round busts by NFL standards.

The common denominator is that while both Quarterbacks failed by NFL standards, their running backs were highly successfull by those same NFL standards...so yes running backs can carry a team's offense and make the quarterback, despite not calling audibles or throwing the football.

The same points you made about Leinart are many of the same points that were being made about Rick Mirer and Todd Blackledge...

My task wtih your comments were directly pointed at your comment regarding Leinart and his ability to perform under pressure, as they are completely off base. I played in 3 straight Orange Bowl games. I have first hand experience playing in that game for those stakes. I played with a program as dominant as USC currently is and I am telling you from personal experience Leinart, which is speaking directly about his maturity both in regards to on and off the field situations, is more groomed and prepared to handle the pressures of the NFL than just about every kid in the draft.

I also spent a couple years in scouting and a short stint providing legal advice to an agent. I sat on both sides of the table when it came to player evaluation; grading measurables; what that means; how that data is extrapalated and the pro day is not that important to a player with a resume and pedigree like Leinart's. I don't give rat's ### what he did or did not do a couple of Sunday's ago that was noted by a timer, scale or defined in terms of feet or inches. That kid proved he has the mental capacity to handle the starting job of an NFL QB, which is the point I am debating with you...pressure and his ability to perform under it. When it mattered most, that kid got it done damn near every time on Saturdays and all the hat/T-Shirt games.

So despite his career W-L record; personal accolades; glowing references from his peers and teammates; fawning praises of all of his coaches and a general consesus among anyone currently associated with tracking talent for the NFL that ALL agree he is the most Sunday ready quarterback you have come to the conclusion he is bad under pressure because he floated a couple throws in games that USC eventually won and he had a so-so pro day.

We are going to have to do the proverbially agree to disagree on this one.

That is a very nice resume' to publicly pronounce. Props to you for your 3 straight Orange Bowl appearances and your two years in scouting.No offense to your previous Football experiences but the other side of that untapped coin is that you didn't make it to the NFL as a player. And if you were any good as a NFL scout, then you would obviously still be scouting or involved in the NFL in some capacity. Especially considering your passion for discussing the game and your resume' on this message board. Many others here may not be as comfortable discussing or boasting of their Football experiences in efforts to hope to gain credibility in debate or discussion. So for all of your Orange Bowl experiences, it didn't help you become an NFL player, so I fail to see how this proves anything with regards to the current discussion other than showing you have played at a high Collegiate level in a big game atmosphere. This is very similiar to my examples of Rick Mirer and Todd Blackledge, although while they actually made it to the NFL, their big game College experiences didn't put them over in the NFL. And I could name numerous Quarterbacks without that big game experience of a Leinart, Mirer or Blackledge who did make it at the position. Dan Marino (Pittsburgh) is just one who was passed over for Blackledge back in the '83 draft.

Again you make some very valid points, although I've heard and seen them all before over the years with first round picks who "can't miss". And I did miss badly on the Williams call (2004)...

Now to once again clarify what my conclusions are, I will speak for myself as opposed to letting you do it for me. I have seen Matt Leinart play in many game pressure situations. And by saying this I don't mean against Defenses like Notre Dame in USC's 2006 win. I mean when he is under pressure from quality defenses who are also covering his receivers, forcing him to make the correct split second decisions as is required in the NFL. Under many of these circumstances, I have seen him falter with bad decision making and errant throws. We have all seen various big time College players who wilted under this type of pressure. Vinny Testaverde (Miami) is another Heisman winner who comes to mind as one who was mistake prone in these situations early on in his career. It took Vinny playing under NFL legends Bill Belichick (Cleveland) and Bill Parcells before he finally started to effectively handle the pressure. And Vinny had far better measurables than Leinart does, Vinny's were off the charts back in his day. As for Leinart's Pro Day, if you are claiming that with millions of dollars still on the line based on where he is drafted, that it is not a pressure situation, then we will have to agree to disagree as you previously stated.

Taking this discussion in it's context, I am definitely the prohibitive underdog in that right now Leinart is a definite early first round pick. So in my claiming he will bust, there are not going to be many who will agree with me on this due to the obvious reasons. But there weren't many who agreed with the handfull involved in the NFL who felt Rick Mirer and Todd Blackledge would bust too...despite all of their big game experiences, they ultimately couldn't handle the NFL pressures of being a QB. Which is far different than the pressures of being a college QB...

The problem is your argument is hinging on two things one that is not true because you say it is and that is Leinart being unable to handle pressure. I don't watch USC I don't like them but I have never heard anything that should make me think that he can't handle pressure. Most "experts" are saying that that is what he does best ala Tom Brady. It is hard to take what you are saying seriously because all you are saying is what you have seen. Nobody knows you and they don't know why they should believe what you have seen when you seem to be the only one who has seen it. If you feel the previous poster was bragging about his past then so be it, but I think he was trying to give credibility to his proclaimed knowledge about the pressures of Big Time College Football. Something that Cutler has never experienced.Your other argument is compairing Leinarts ability to handle tough situations to Vinny since there is no reason for us to believe what you think over what I think it is hard to believe that Leinard is a poor mans Vinny which is basicly what you are saying.

My opinion Cutler throws harder so what. As a 49er fan I love Joe Montana he never wowed with his arm, Tom Brady has been well documented. It has been said many times that Leinard can make all the throws an NFL QB needs to make. Maybe Leinart not falling down drafts is because teams are changing their perceptions of what it takes to be a good QB and the physicall things aren't considered as important, I don't know its just a theory.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Leinart has not performed well in pressure situations when I have seen him play.

Are you kidding?

Not at all. And he didn't impress many on his Pro Day either with millions of dollars on the line...Personally I think Leinart will be a bust...time will tell.

USC-Notre Dame? Two national titles?

 

[WhoDat]

No offense to your previous Football experiences but the other side of that untapped coin is that you didn't make it to the NFL as a player. And if you were any good as a NFL scout, then you would obviously still be scouting or involved in the NFL in some capacity. Especially considering your passion for discussing the game and your resume' on this message board. Many others here may not be as comfortable discussing or boasting of their Football experiences in efforts to hope to gain credibility in debate or discussion. So for all of your Orange Bowl experiences, it didn't help you become an NFL player, so I fail to see how this proves anything with regards to the current discussion other than showing you have played at a high Collegiate level in a big game atmosphere. This is very similiar to my examples of Rick Mirer and Todd Blackledge, although while they actually made it to the NFL, their big game College experiences didn't put them over in the NFL. And I could name numerous Quarterbacks without that big game experience of a Leinart, Mirer or Blackledge who did make it at the position. Dan Marino (Pittsburgh) is just one who was passed over for Blackledge back in the '83 draft.

Nice...You are right. I just sucked.

Next time you are in Texas and want to discuss this track me down.

 

[wannabee]

No offense to your previous Football experiences but the other side of that untapped coin is that you didn't make it to the NFL as a player. And if you were any good as a NFL scout, then you would obviously still be scouting or involved in the NFL in some capacity. Especially considering your passion for discussing the game and your resume' on this message board. Many others here may not be as comfortable discussing or boasting of their Football experiences in efforts to hope to gain credibility in debate or discussion. So for all of your Orange Bowl experiences, it didn't help you become an NFL player, so I fail to see how this proves anything with regards to the current discussion other than showing you have played at a high Collegiate level in a big game atmosphere. This is very similiar to my examples of Rick Mirer and Todd Blackledge, although while they actually made it to the NFL, their big game College experiences didn't put them over in the NFL. And I could name numerous Quarterbacks without that big game experience of a Leinart, Mirer or Blackledge who did make it at the position. Dan Marino (Pittsburgh) is just one who was passed over for Blackledge back in the '83 draft.

Nice...You are right. I just sucked.

Next time you are in Texas and want to discuss this track me down.

Sorry to laugh, but that is funny .......

 

[PennState-JD]

I know the original post only included drafts going back to 1986, but what about going back two more years to include Steve Young? He was the 1st pick in the 1st round of the supplemental draft, so he should qualify.

To me, Leinhart reminds me a lot of Young with the exception of his legs. Both are considered cerebral players, both don't have cannon arms, both are lefties, and both played in a Pro style offense.

Who knows whether he will ever have the same success on the field, but they seem pretty similar coming into the NFL as far as their attributes.