Do you believe in the American Dream? (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

The American Dream is defined by Wikipedia as:

a set of ideals in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and an upward social mobility achieved through hard work. In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth.[1]

Recent polling suggest that many younger Americans don't believe in this any longer. They think that even if they work hard, go to school, do all the right things, there's still a good chance they won't succeed. There is also the question of whether or not the American Dream was ever real for certain segments of society, such as inner city blacks and Latinos.

Do you think the American Dream is still real? And if it once existed but no longer does, can we recapture it?

 

[timschochet]

One central aspect of the dream that has been pervasive in our society is that anyone can become rich. All you need to do is come up with an new idea, and market it correctly, and you can become a millionaire.

Another aspect is that if you work 40 hours or more a week and are honest and forthright and save your money, you can afford to buy a house, send your kids to college, and have retirement money for your old age.

 

[ScottNorwood]

In a word - Yes

 

[ScottNorwood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfJJXIr1gzQ

 

[ScottNorwood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9py4aMK3aIU&feature=kp

 

[rockaction]

In a word - Yes

Heaving with laughter.

 

[The Commish]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

In a word - Yes

I was a plumber's son...

 

[timschochet]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

 

[NutterButter]

Are we really talking just having a better life if you work hard or some type of bigger payoff? Seems like the former according to that definition. You'd be in a really small minority if your life wasn't somewhat better off by working hard.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Absolutely still real. Younger Americans who were polled probably want the dream to be realized right away.

 

[ScottNorwood]

DO YOU BELIEVE IN SWEET SAPPHIRE????

 

[The Commish]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

Not according to your definition above

 

[jwb]

"Working hard" is a matter of interpretation. My 20 y/o neighbor says he works hard. He doesn't.

But more than that, the "American Dream" is more or less a post WW2 thing. And like I've said in other threads that touched on this topic, that whole thing was an anomaly. That whole "everyone can make a decent house-buying living with an average job" was lightning in a bottle, and it's not coming back. We had a good run - you could say it lasted up through the 90's. But it's over.

Yes, you can still make it big. But the average person with average skills doing well? No more. Paying house-buying wages, with a nice pension, for fairly common work is never happening again.

 

[Politician Spock]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

 

[sublimeone]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

 

[Politician Spock]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

I was misguided about the equality of opportunity for all when I was younger. After completing what may likely be my work career and looking back - there is no doubt that those born into money have an unbelievable advantage, but most anyone can make a really good life for themselves and family in this country.

We are fortunate to live in this country and in these times - it hasn't been that way throughout most of history.

 

[sublimeone]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

 

[Politician Spock]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Possible? Sure. But as I said before, it's a fraction of what it once was. A lot has changed in the business environment of the country since corporate personhood was recognized in the late 19th century.

 

[meatwad1]

I was misguided about the equality of opportunity for all when I was younger. After completing what may likely be my work career and looking back - there is no doubt that those born into money have an unbelievable advantage, but most anyone can make a really good life for themselves and family in this country.

We are fortunate to live in this country and in these times - it hasn't been that way throughout most of history.

Good point. We sometimes take for granted how well we really have it. There are many places on Earth that literally seem hellish. I do think it is way harder to move ahead nowadays.

There are way more things to waste money on, and people are less upwardly mobile in general. I think the $hit hits the fan when Generation X reaches retirement age. That is the first generation where fat pensions are not the norm, and savings are more paramount. I know a heck-ton of people who live check to check or close to it.

 

[timschochet]

I think we can all appreciate how much better we have it than other countries, yet still question whether we'll going in the right direction and be concerned that we don't have it as easy as our parents did.

 

[zoonation]

Should be called the democracy dream. Calling it american is full on solipsistic.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Funky Like a Monkey tour of '88? Heck yes!

 

[ShaqAttaq]

In a word - Yes

I was a plumber's son...

I hated Dusty.

 

[ShaqAttaq]

I was misguided about the equality of opportunity for all when I was younger. After completing what may likely be my work career and looking back - there is no doubt that those born into money have an unbelievable advantage, but most anyone can make a really good life for themselves and family in this country.

We are fortunate to live in this country and in these times - it hasn't been that way throughout most of history.

I'm mid-career and my wife and I are both doing better than our parents. we weren't born into Chetloot, but it certainly helped that we had parents that paid for undergrad and allowed us to start our adult lives without that anchor.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Yes I know my enemies

They're the teachers who taught me to fight me

Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission

Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite

All of which are American dreams

All of which are American dreams

All of which are American dreams

All of which are American dreams

All of which are American dreams

All of which are American dreams

All of which are American dreams

All of which are American dreams

 

[The Commish]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

 

[Christo]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

Completely ridiculous notion.

 

[shader]

There are plenty of "mom and pop" businesses. I think this gets a bad rap due to Walmart, Home Depot and the dominance of big stores.

The facts are that people don't want to go to 13 different stores to get all their things. People like the convenience of Walmart and the cheaper prices it brings.

There are certain businesses that are "going away". Small "general stores" are a thing of the past with the big box stores and online shopping.

But that doesn't mean you can't make money in a small business. Many internet sites start as "mom and pop" businesses.

I'm in IT, there are loads of small businesses in the area. People who do wiring, consulting, networking, storage, etc. Yeah there are challenges to working out of your truck, but I have a buddy who has been doing it for 15 years and he now has an extremely successful small business in which he does network wiring. He started wiring whatever he could get, and is now getting huge contracts.

The "death of the mom and pop shops" is simply not true.

 

[shader]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

Ok, so you can't be rich opening a mom/pop hardware store. Big deal. Times change. There are plenty of other avenues open today that weren't open back when having a mom and pop hardware store was a great way to make a living. (if it ever was)

 

[Parrothead]

Voila! An American Dream.
Well, we can travel girl, without any means.
When it's as easy as closing your eyes
And dream Jamaica is a big neon sign.

 

[shader]

I'd say it's far easier to make great money in today's world than it was 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago.

I'm not saying there aren't major economic problems, but if someone wants to make lots of money, it's not hard if you are relatively intelligent. As for getting rich, this usually requires "striking it big" in business. You aren't going to get rich working for the man. But there are far MORE avenues for getting rich now than there were 50 years ago, imo.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Absolutely and unequivocally.

 

[NutterButter]

"Working hard" is a matter of interpretation. My 20 y/o neighbor says he works hard. He doesn't.

But more than that, the "American Dream" is more or less a post WW2 thing. And like I've said in other threads that touched on this topic, that whole thing was an anomaly. That whole "everyone can make a decent house-buying living with an average job" was lightning in a bottle, and it's not coming back. We had a good run - you could say it lasted up through the 90's. But it's over.

Yes, you can still make it big. But the average person with average skills doing well? No more. Paying house-buying wages, with a nice pension, for fairly common work is never happening again.

I think this was a large part of what was considered the american dream and most of this is gone never to return.

 

[shader]

At the risk of being too positive, there are some big negatives to today's world. First of all, it's far more expensive. Money just seems to fly out of our wallets. In the last few years real inflation (not some fake gov't number but the real cost of things we buy) is getting ridiculous.

Usually the husband and the wife need to be working to live comfortably in most cases, which is much different than 40-50 years ago.

So there are some downsides for sure.

 

[timschochet]

Paying for my children's university education will

Be a much more difficult task for me than it was for my parents.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Paying for my children's university education will

Be a much more difficult task for me than it was for my parents.

A college education is not a pre-requisite to achieving the American Dream.

In fact, I'm beginning to think it's more of a detriment.

 

[timschochet]

Paying for my children's university education will

Be a much more difficult task for me than it was for my parents.

A college education is not a pre-requisite to achieving the American Dream.In fact, I'm beginning to think it's more of a detriment.

Traditionally, being able to afford to send your kids through college has been part of it.

 

[Slapdash]

But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education SUCKS, and it’s the same reason it will never, ever, EVER be fixed.

It’s never going to get any better, don’t look for it, be happy with what you’ve got.

Because the owners, the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the BIG owners! The Wealthy… the REAL owners! The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions.

Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want:

They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests.

That's right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting ####ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 ####### years ago. They don’t want that!

You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ####ty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this ####### place! It's a big club, and you ain’t in it! You, and I, are not in the big club.

By the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care! Good honest hard-working people; white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means, continue to elect these rich #### suckers who don’t give a #### about you….they don’t give a #### about you… they don’t give a #### about you.

They don’t care about you at all… at all… AT ALL. And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Thats what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue **** that's being jammed up their #######s everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth.

It's called the American Dream,because you have to be asleep to believe it.

 

[Slapdash]

Paying for my children's university education will

Be a much more difficult task for me than it was for my parents.

A college education is not a pre-requisite to achieving the American Dream.

In fact, I'm beginning to think it's more of a detriment.

Why?

 

[DocHolliday]

At the risk of being too positive, there are some big negatives to today's world. First of all, it's far more expensive. Money just seems to fly out of our wallets. In the last few years real inflation (not some fake gov't number but the real cost of things we buy) is getting ridiculous.

Usually the husband and the wife need to be working to live comfortably in most cases, which is much different than 40-50 years ago.

So there are some downsides for sure.

We have more stuff than most families did 50 years ago. Our standard of living has increased. My familiy could live off of my salary if we lived like my grandparents did. They lived much simpler lives. They did not have as much stuff.

Now Then

Many tvs in each home 1

2 or 3 cars 1

Huge closets filled with clothes Tiny closets with a limited wardrobe.

Larger homes Smaller homes

smart phone for each member of home 1 landline

Computers and tablets for each member of the home 0

Cable and internet service 0

 

[Thunderlips]

At the risk of being too positive, there are some big negatives to today's world. First of all, it's far more expensive. Money just seems to fly out of our wallets. In the last few years real inflation (not some fake gov't number but the real cost of things we buy) is getting ridiculous.

Usually the husband and the wife need to be working to live comfortably in most cases, which is much different than 40-50 years ago.

So there are some downsides for sure.

We have more stuff than most families did 50 years ago. Our standard of living has increased. My familiy could live off of my salary if we lived like my grandparents did. They lived much simpler lives. They did not have as much stuff.

Now Then

Many tvs in each home 1

2 or 3 cars 1

Huge closets filled with clothes Tiny closets with a limited wardrobe.

Larger homes Smaller homes

smart phone for each member of home 1 landline

Computers and tablets for each member of the home 0

Cable and internet service 0

I think the disconnect with then and now is that now people view what you have as an essential part of The American Dream. That's fine for the people that can afford it; or more importantly place those "neccesities" in the ENTERTAINMENT portion of their budget.......but for those who struggle to pay for those things (IMO...use a credit card and take some time to pay it off) or who steal from other slices in their budget pie (retirement, savings, home ownership) to pay for them......they should discard the idea that the American Dream is an I-Phone, Nikes and brand new Mazda and try to get more value for their hard earned dollar.

 

[roadkill1292]

But there’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason for this, there’s a reason education SUCKS, and it’s the same reason it will never, ever, EVER be fixed.

It’s never going to get any better, don’t look for it, be happy with what you’ve got.

Because the owners, the owners of this country don't want that. I'm talking about the real owners now, the BIG owners! The Wealthy… the REAL owners! The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions.

Forget the politicians. They are irrelevant. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice! You have OWNERS! They OWN YOU. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.

They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying, to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don’t want:

They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. Thats against their interests.

That's right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting ####ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 ####### years ago. They don’t want that!

You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ####ty jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this ####### place! It's a big club, and you ain’t in it! You, and I, are not in the big club.

By the way, it's the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care! Good honest hard-working people; white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means, continue to elect these rich #### suckers who don’t give a #### about you….they don’t give a #### about you… they don’t give a #### about you.

They don’t care about you at all… at all… AT ALL. And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Thats what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue **** that's being jammed up their #######s everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth.

It's called the American Dream,because you have to be asleep to believe it.

Wait, when did we start talking about the NFL?

 

[The Commish]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

Ok, so you can't be rich opening a mom/pop hardware store. Big deal. Times change. There are plenty of other avenues open today that weren't open back when having a mom and pop hardware store was a great way to make a living. (if it ever was)

I'm going on the premise of Tim's definition. You don't like it, take it up with him Reality is, there are fewer and fewer Jobs/Gates/(insert any person starting a business from scratch and becoming incredibly wealthy on their own dime) type of stories out there where someone created something from nothing. Now it's very much create something in hopes that some larger company comes in, buys it and carries it to fruition. If you'll read what I actually said, you'll see that I never said it CAN'T be done or that it DOESN'T exist. It does, just not in as many avenues as 50 - 100 years ago. I didn't really think this was a controversial thing to say. Apparently, I'm wrong.

 

[shader]

At the risk of being too positive, there are some big negatives to today's world. First of all, it's far more expensive. Money just seems to fly out of our wallets. In the last few years real inflation (not some fake gov't number but the real cost of things we buy) is getting ridiculous.

Usually the husband and the wife need to be working to live comfortably in most cases, which is much different than 40-50 years ago.

So there are some downsides for sure.

We have more stuff than most families did 50 years ago. Our standard of living has increased. My familiy could live off of my salary if we lived like my grandparents did. They lived much simpler lives. They did not have as much stuff.

Now Then

Many tvs in each home 1

2 or 3 cars 1

Huge closets filled with clothes Tiny closets with a limited wardrobe.

Larger homes Smaller homes

smart phone for each member of home 1 landline

Computers and tablets for each member of the home 0

Cable and internet service 0

This is a good point. But many of the things you talk about are not necessarily luxuries, but are essential.

My family couldn't survive on 1 car.

Yes, we have 2 TV's, but over the course of the 5 years in which we've purchased them, they aren't that expensive, and I think it's an extra 5 bucks a month for the second television (or just a bit more than a pack of shredded cheese).

I must have internet for my house, it's not an option. Ditto with a smart phone for me, although I suppose the wife's is a luxury.

Totally agree on clothes. We buy way more clothes than we need now. Clothes and food are tough these days.

 

[Thunderlips]

If the "

"Working hard" is a matter of interpretation. My 20 y/o neighbor says he works hard. He doesn't.

But more than that, the "American Dream" is more or less a post WW2 thing. And like I've said in other threads that touched on this topic, that whole thing was an anomaly. That whole "everyone can make a decent house-buying living with an average job" was lightning in a bottle, and it's not coming back. We had a good run - you could say it lasted up through the 90's. But it's over.

Yes, you can still make it big. But the average person with average skills doing well? No more. Paying house-buying wages, with a nice pension, for fairly common work is never happening again.

I think this was a large part of what was considered the american dream and most of this is gone never to return.

By who's doing?

 

[shader]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

Ok, so you can't be rich opening a mom/pop hardware store. Big deal. Times change. There are plenty of other avenues open today that weren't open back when having a mom and pop hardware store was a great way to make a living. (if it ever was)

I'm going on the premise of Tim's definition. You don't like it, take it up with him Reality is, there are fewer and fewer Jobs/Gates/(insert any person starting a business from scratch and becoming incredibly wealthy on their own dime) type of stories out there where someone created something from nothing. Now it's very much create something in hopes that some larger company comes in, buys it and carries it to fruition. If you'll read what I actually said, you'll see that I never said it CAN'T be done or that it DOESN'T exist. It does, just not in as many avenues as 50 - 100 years ago. I didn't really think this was a controversial thing to say. Apparently, I'm wrong.

I don't think it is controversial, I just don't agree.

I don't think it was easier to get rich 50-100 years ago, in fact I think it was far more difficult. Look at Evan Spiegel, CEO of snapchat. He was a jerky college kid 3 years ago when I was spending far too much time focusing on my upcoming fantasy draft. Now he's worth over 200 million. With the internet, I think there are far MORE opportunities for wealth, and it's leveled the playing field quite a bit.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Paying for my children's university education will

Be a much more difficult task for me than it was for my parents.

A college education is not a pre-requisite to achieving the American Dream.

In fact, I'm beginning to think it's more of a detriment.

Why?

Because one of the main components of achieving the American Dream is the accumulation of capital...be that financial, physical, or intellectual.

In the case of college, it's essentially intellectual capital that you're purchasing. But the cost of that capital, once you factor in the servicing the debt of that cost (for most students anyway), compared to the benefit that capital delivers to you seems to be on a rapidly declining ROI slope.

Or more simply put, the applicability of a college education appears less and less worth the cost.

The caveat here, naturally, is that it depends on what the field of study is.

 

[Mene]

I think we are using two definitions of the American Dream here. I always understood it to be that by working hard, most anyone could provide a decent middle class life for their family. There were plenty of opportunities to find a decent paying job, regardless of education. That was largely due to the massive manufacturing base we had. Those jobs allowed you to own a home, a car, a family vacation here and there, and send the kids to college. The less educated you were, the harder you worked, but there were opportunities. That dream is much harder to attain nowadays, in my opinion... there are just too few opportunities.

However, there far are more avenues to strike it rich now, thanks to the internet for the most part.

I think this is explains the growing wealth gap, we have more rich, more poor, and fewer and fewer in the middle.