Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Looking to see how my view comes down with everyone else.COlin
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Do you play by the rules? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Colin Dowling
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Let's start with roll with it and go from there...care to clarify???Colin,I wouldn't do something that I would personally think is shady or beneath the belt. However, if a particular league has "loopholes" in its rules (with things like Injured Reserve), I generally will take full-advantage of whatever the rules will allow. Guys will sometimes call me on certain things (usually IR), but if I'm not breaking any rules, I usually tell them to either:A. Deal with it, orB. Propose a rules change to the rest of the owners in the league.Not sure if that's the type of response you were looking for, but that's where I usually fall on this particular issue.
SSOG
Moderator
I always play within the rules. I might not play nice (for instance, if I have a glut of RBs, and the person I'm facing this week is short an RB, I'm going to wait a week before initiating trade discussions). I'm not going to try to find little exploits or loopholes, though. For instance, I've seen people in Yahoo leagues who will pick up and drop every single kicker in the league Saturday afternoon, because dropped players go on waivers for 24 hours before they can be claimed. This prevents someone whose kicker is on a bye from adding a kicker to his roster. That's not "cheating", but it's underhanded, and I'd never take part in that.That's why I don't like playing for money. I like playing in an environment where everyone else brings forth their best shot, and I still beat them anyway.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Ok, more specifically...Hypothetical: YOu are in a Dyansty league and your team is on the cusp of having the #1 pick because you ran in to bad luck/poor performance/injury this season. THe rules do not state that you must submit a starting lineup. Do you submit a starting lineup because that is the "spirit" of the game/league? Or do you act in the interest of your team and NOT submit a lineup to try and improve your future, realizing you will piss off leaguemates but not violate any rules?COlin
Mike
Footballguy
Not having something explicitly stated in the rules is not an open invitation to do something shady and/or go against the spirit of the rules.Response to your example: Submit a lineup. Teams are supposed to submit a lineup. The rules do not have to say you have to submit a lineup because it is so obvious to the game of fantasy football.
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Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Interesting. I am not above realizing that this is a "rule" that shouldn't have to be stated. However, and maybe I'm the villain on this, when playing for money, I don't think it's being shady or beneath the belt to look for loopholes that work to one's advantage.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
How would you behave if the league rules DID state that all leaguewide rule changes could only happen out of season? WOuld you continue taking advantage? Or would you acquiece to the will of the league, even though you weren't bound to?
Mike
Footballguy
Whether for money or not, I still consider it a game and don't want to play in a league that requires an 80 page document of rules where every little detail must be stated to keep people happy (and they'll probably still find something that isn't explicitly stated). At that point it isn't a game any more. It's just dumb.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
I tend to agree with you, which frankly, is where the trouble of playing for money comes in. If you and i were to play in a league for fun or nominal cash, I'd be inclined to "roll with it" and assume certain things. However, if we were to be playing for some serious holiday loot, i'd have a hard time not looking for every loophole I could find.COlin
BassNBrew
Footballguy
I wouldn't take advantage, but I'd put everyone else on notice that their ethics better be beyond reproach for the rest of the year too. The example you bring up is why I've never played in a dynasty league. I like leagues with a good commish who has been given authority to use common sense to maintain the intregrity of the league first and foremost.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
I'd say that is a fair statement. In leauges like that, "loophole lookers" get tossed or the rules get refined quickly. I find people don't put up with loose rules or "advantageous" players for more than one season.
It depends on what your competition is doing. If the other people in the league are starting bs lineups, then it isn't a loophole, it is an accepted part of the league. If everyone submits their most competitive lineup, then it falls under unwritten rules and to submit a bogus lineup would be compromising the integrity of the league.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Even though it isn't stated? And even though NFL teams play lesser players late in the season under the guise of "evaluation" ?
Tony Jabroni
Footballguy
--Massage the rules to your advantage.--Offer up a rule change 'for next year'--Rinse/Repeat.The gold standard around here is to know your league rules. The silver standard is how to manipulate them.TOnyFor the record, I Commish 2 big $ leagues. DO NOT put anything past anyone. If it is not explicitly in writing, expect a league vote or hell to pay. Bottom line, milk all rules.
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NFL has nothing to do with it. You do not control if your players play or if they sit, while NFL coaches do. They gain knowledge about a player, while you are attempting to only advance in the draft. While there is a reason to play different guys in the NFL, there is not in fantasy. The whole thing about it being "stated" depends on how much of a ######## you are. I play with people I know and whom I'm friends with. Friendships aren't worth a couple of draft spots or a couple hundred bucks, they are much more valuable. Also, if you go against the grain of the league, you run the risk of not being invited next year.
SSOG
Moderator
This is why I refuse to play for money.Look at the NFL. Losing is in the Texans' best interests, but they still go out and try their hardest to win, every single week. I think that's part of being an adult and having some pride in what you do. I also like to think that I don't need to resort to underhanded tactics to give me an advantage. If I'm an above-average fantasy football player, as I like to think I am, then I don't need to resort to cheap tricks to get wins. I just need to do what everyone else does, only do it better.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Many interesting opinions here.
FFL_Offices
Footballguy
There is an easy solution to this problem for next year but this year it's a tough call.I'm in a fairly high priced league, our pot ends up about $5,000 at years end split among the top 4 finishers.We've had the league 13 years and have essentially the same core of owners since day one with a few dropping in and out as their lives changed over the years.The key to our leagues success has always been an explicit rule book that pretty much covers most situations. We started with about a 5 page rule book back 13 years ago and over the years it's grown to about 20 pages. You can read the entire thing cover to cover in about 15 minutes plus most of the owners have been in the league so long they know the rule book inside and out.If you're looking to build a long term league like mine that I describe then you need a rule that covers the intetrity of the game and states "all franchises are expected to field their best possible team at all times."In one sentance you've covered the problem. Now we certainly don't take issue with someone starting Caddie Williams over Lamont Jordan but if someone were to start Nick Goings and bench S. Alexander or Larry Johnson, then of course the Commish would step in and take action.I guess the bottom line is the future of your league and where you want it to go. I completely agree with all the posters above regarding "the cheaters tend to find their way out of the league real quick one way or another."Good luck, it was an interesting question.
I'll usually exploit minor loopholes and skirt around the rules because to me that's sporting fun and everybody is (or should be) trying to do the same thing. While I may annoy a few people from time to time, I stay within the spirit of the rules. Deliberately tanking a game may be within the rules technically but there's no spirit of sportsmanship in doing so. Putting in no starting lineup is a bad move, as is doing something like benching LT for Chris Brown. Any obvious attempt to lose a game is unwelcome by me and if it was pulled in my league I'd lobby to have that owner tossed. I play in a money league.P.S. If you're trying to tank for next year, just make semi-questionable moves. Bench good players for average guys with "upside", plug in people with poor matchups, etc.
Rockchild
Footballguy
The teams that play by the letter of the rules and exploit loopholes are very trying and exasperating. As a former Commissioner I experienced this all the time and had to 'pull rank' when I felt someone had stepped over the line. The refereeing was what finally led me to step down. Friendships were being strained. I've always found that the more explicit rules were the more you encourage exploitation and sometimes make it easier to exploit . I'm more of the school of making a rule and adding what the spirit of the rule is to try and mitigate any exploitation of said rule.
msommer
Footballguy
That I would call tanking and I wouldn't do it.Actually I was in a similar situation a few weeks ago. Two weeks before the end of my season I was staring at the #2 pick and a chance at some choice RBs in the next rookie draft - all I needed to do was lose the last two weeks. If there is one weakness on my team it is RB.
Unfortunately I set my strongest line up and got two much unwanted wins and now I have the #5 pick. It may have been unwise but I am happy with that.
Apart from that I exploit every rule to my advantage and if people have a problem with the rules - take it up in the off season and we'll vote on it.
Family Matters
Footballguy
I'm not going to pass judgement because this is a great debate and discussion to have but this sounds like what many others will do which is place a higher value on money then one's value of character. I think that's what this discussion is really about. I have no doubt that mnay will hide their character under the "it ain't in the rules" defense while at the same time proclaiming to be holier than most others. Bottom line is you can't have it both ways. Just my humble opinion.
nerangers
Footballguy
I know when Money is on the line, people tend to look for the loopholes. We are talking draft picks here though, correct? Or does the last place team get some sort of money as well?I am guessing colin, the team with the worst record gets the first pick? It is the only reason why I can imagine you want to throw a game.
We have tightened up our rules a lot since our league started seven years ago. Our rules actually do state about setting a roster, and all.
We formed our league with regards to draft picks on winning, and not on record. That way you are not tempted to just throw the season. The lower teams in the consolation bracket play for the top four picks.
Why should a team get the first overall pick for throwing a season? In my dynasty league, the last place team just won his first game in the Reggie Bush Bowl (as we are calling it). Playing for draft picks works for us.
I would play out if I was you...if your opponent has nothing to play for, he might also set a zero roster and force a tie...that would ruin your plan.
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Nemesis
Footballguy
My sentiments EXACTLY.In fact, I had 4 new owners this season join and told them when they joined........"If you're are the lawyer-type that is ALWAYS trying to look for shady loopholes and then claim but it's not explicitly stated in the rules!............then I'd rather you not join the league. You know the spirit of the rule........all I ask is that you respect it. And if you don't know the spirit of the rule.......ASK before you do something YOU KNOW is shady."
On that note, my respect level for you Colin will go down IF you decide to not submit a lineup.
Voice Of Reason
Footballguy
As commissioner of my league, I'd take over the team who tried to lay down that week and not allow them to return the following year.When you got the league entry fee, you got the power
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I am the guy in my leagues who finds and closes loopholes - part of it comes from having been in a prior league wehre the rules were written by others, then they stopped actively doing what was needed to run the league. I volunteered to take over an then all heck broke loose. For example (this was a baseball league with NL only players):Baseball had a 3-way deal involving 2 NL teams and an AL team where a player moved from one NL team to another, but via the AL. We needed a rule.September call-ups made after Sept. 1 - we needed a rule.Multiple players on different teams traded to the AL for one player back - the rules said the team losing theplayer going to the AL got first dibs on the guy - we needed a rule.It got old fast. Essentially:If something is reasonable and not contrary to the essence of the game and not covered by the rules, fine - do it. Otherwise, no.Sometimes the rules contradict themselves - then you've got to do what is best for you and you feel is right. When the rules are set up in such a way that occurs, they need to be fixed.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I am curious when Colin is going to explain why this thread is in here. Since I am in the league with Colin, let me explain what has happened and than people can decide for themselves.
1. The league was made up of mostly FBG posters, it is a big boy league and not meant for newbies…we assumed we could get by with minimal rules. What person would try and twist them and turn themselves into one of those FBG threads where everyone piles on about morality? Well here we go.
2. Colin for the 2nd time this season did not post a lineup in week 13…at the time I was tied for 1st place with Wheelhouse who you all know on these boards. I finished the season 11-3, Wheelhouse would have gone 10-4 with that loss to Colin…we know based on Colin’s usual line up that he would have beat Wheelhouse in week 13. Instead we both finished 11-3 and Wheel had the tiebreaker and I got a 1st round playoff game instead of a bye and str8 to the money round. We never envisioned owners not putting in a line up…especially those that FBG writers…unreal.
3. The 1st time Colin did not call in a line up it was a family emergency…we believe him and we let it go. There were a lot of emails sent out by the Commish(not me), stating it was mandatory to put a line up in…Colin was sent several emails the week before in week 12 reminding him that he needed to send in a line up during week 12…he complied, but we could see that he was not really into the league at this point.
I want to point out that Colin’s team may have had challenges during the season but he is well equipped with Larry Johnson, Steven Jackson, and Willis McGahee to do very well in the seasons ahead and he stated he built the team for 2006 and beyond…fair enough. However the idea of tanking to pick high in the 1st round doesn’t jive…we already have the 1st pick locked up by another member…no Reggie Bush for Colin(I’m sure he didn’t have his heart set on him he will say).
So than he tanks week 13, we gave him 72 hours to explain himself…he did not. He waited till after the week 15 games were done to come back to the league site and had the nerve to act surprised by us moving forward without him(and believe me we will be no matter how many people in here think he’s right).
He tried to act like he was smarter than us because as he said “I look for loopholes”…to me that admits guilt and the fact he twists rules. It doesn’t say you can commit an axe murder in our rules or mow down a family of 6 while being drunk behind the wheel…to me there is no difference. He is not outsmarting the league by not sending in a line up, he simply lowering himself below the quality of the owners we want in the league.
Colin, you’re Fired!
1. The league was made up of mostly FBG posters, it is a big boy league and not meant for newbies…we assumed we could get by with minimal rules. What person would try and twist them and turn themselves into one of those FBG threads where everyone piles on about morality? Well here we go.
2. Colin for the 2nd time this season did not post a lineup in week 13…at the time I was tied for 1st place with Wheelhouse who you all know on these boards. I finished the season 11-3, Wheelhouse would have gone 10-4 with that loss to Colin…we know based on Colin’s usual line up that he would have beat Wheelhouse in week 13. Instead we both finished 11-3 and Wheel had the tiebreaker and I got a 1st round playoff game instead of a bye and str8 to the money round. We never envisioned owners not putting in a line up…especially those that FBG writers…unreal.
3. The 1st time Colin did not call in a line up it was a family emergency…we believe him and we let it go. There were a lot of emails sent out by the Commish(not me), stating it was mandatory to put a line up in…Colin was sent several emails the week before in week 12 reminding him that he needed to send in a line up during week 12…he complied, but we could see that he was not really into the league at this point.
I want to point out that Colin’s team may have had challenges during the season but he is well equipped with Larry Johnson, Steven Jackson, and Willis McGahee to do very well in the seasons ahead and he stated he built the team for 2006 and beyond…fair enough. However the idea of tanking to pick high in the 1st round doesn’t jive…we already have the 1st pick locked up by another member…no Reggie Bush for Colin(I’m sure he didn’t have his heart set on him he will say).
So than he tanks week 13, we gave him 72 hours to explain himself…he did not. He waited till after the week 15 games were done to come back to the league site and had the nerve to act surprised by us moving forward without him(and believe me we will be no matter how many people in here think he’s right).
He tried to act like he was smarter than us because as he said “I look for loopholes”…to me that admits guilt and the fact he twists rules. It doesn’t say you can commit an axe murder in our rules or mow down a family of 6 while being drunk behind the wheel…to me there is no difference. He is not outsmarting the league by not sending in a line up, he simply lowering himself below the quality of the owners we want in the league.
Colin, you’re Fired!
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DropKick
Footballguy
I play the game for fun with family, friends and co-workers. I play to win and like the mystique of being one step ahead of the field. But would I compromise myself and the respect of these people for a fantasy game? No.Ironically, the few people I've played with that have proven slimey are the same ones that suspect other people of the same. The pot calling the kettle black. Real interesting how even a fantasy game brings out the real nature of people.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Your anger is a bit of an overreation. I said at the league that I am fine with whatever determination you guys make. I don't want any hard feelings, although your name-calling over there seems to imply that there are hard feelings. I don't need to "explain why" this thread is here because I am discussing an issue. THat is "why" it's here, and I have no need or desire to link it to any issue you seem to have with me.If the way I choose to play in a money league is "below the quality of owners you want" then I'll step aside and someone else can take over my team. No worries here.
However, the question/point of this thread was to ask what kind of behavior most FBGuys participate in. There have been many quality postings on both sides of the issue.
Thanks to all who have chimed in.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Colin, you put this thread up the same day you finally checked in back at the league site...your lies only make a bad situation worse. You hosed the playoffs in this league, than try to act like you are Albert Einstein for not using common sense...spare us. As far as the name calling goes over at the league site...I don't mince words, I wanted you to know exactly how I felt. Why an FBG staff member in a league with quite an honor roll list of FBG posters would not only twist the rules, tank and hurt the integrity of the league, deficate on the owners in all apescts...and than have the nerve to post this BS in the FBG forum...what's the saying Colin? "No pissing in the Shark Pool!" And you are...trying to mask this thread like its some kind of an Oprah Winfrey discussion, shameful on you...I had so much respect for you as a writer, person, owner...until this...I'm so disappointed in you and no amount of f bombs I can drop on you will change that.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
MoP, save it. I'm not doing anything here but asking how people play. I'm looking to see if I'm the minority, and I apparently am. However, there is a lot of quality discussion here. If you want to harp on the issue in the league you are referring to, I'd be happy to discuss it with you there.Colin
nightshift
Footballguy
Since you decided to air your dirty shorts out in public, maybe you'd like to inform them that:- The commish did state the first few times this occurred that tanking by not submitting a lineup will not be condoned. I was very straightforward about this.- you were contacted by email and several posts were put on the league board which you chose to ignore until now.- As of this moment, in a pay league you asked for slack until October. It's December and I still haven't seen your dues.As stated previously, this league was/is to be a big boy league. Seasoned vets that don't a nanny to hold their hand while they play. You understood this quite well going into it.I am very disappointed in your actions and your integrity, Colin. You were asked becuase you are part of the FBG staff. I expect that not only to myself but also to most of the other coaches in our league that there is a serious tarnish on FBG, which you represent as well. Representation goes any formal affiliation to a organization Your name & picture appear on the home page; you are affiliated.I will put a whole lot less credence in what you post and what is sold here.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
No way...everyone will pile in here...JohnnyU has, PIA, Wheel, Nightshift, Red...you think you can start a thread like this the same day you finally check back in and nothing is going to happen? No way dude, sorry.Should we even mention the fact you never sent in the $$$? In all reality COlin, I would have been fine letting you roll it to the Spring if you were hard up...it was never about the $$$, but as I posted over in the leafgue and will say it here directly to you...if you haven't sent it by now please keep it. If we get a check, we will return it or rip it up.
Colin you had a chance to shine in this league...your college football prowess is top notch...and even as hot as I have been, I gave you lots of credit for building a team to win with for the next 3-5 years with a few adjustments...you will not be there to enjoy those fruits of labor, and its too bad.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
I'll say it again - we can discuss that over there. Pile on all you like - it's clear that my style of money league play does not mesh with yours. I apologize for offending/upseting you and others, but I won't be sorry for playing the way I do. As I have stated countless times, if my way of play is not kosher with the league, remove me. I certainly won't have any hard feelings. Regardless, as to this thread, it appears that most people, by about a 3to 1 margin would play it the other way. I admit I'm a little surprised by this result. I expected more people to take advantage of the rules with money at stake.
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