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Doctor violently dragged from full United flight (1 Viewer)

A) They never offered the full amount from all accounts

B) He had already boarded.

Next.
The "full" amount by law for involuntary removal is 400% of the ticket price. We don't know how much he would have been given had he not reacted the way he did. As has been stated previously, the amount offered for voluntary removal can be anything they choose and some frequent flyers around blogs say United never offers more than $800. Doesn't seem to matter if he already boarded but I guess we'll just have to see. Until the gate and cabin door are closed I wouldn't go counting anything out.

 
You just aren't getting it. There IS NO policy dealing with passengers that have already boarded. 
No, I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who's not getting it. Guess we'll see.

No it wasn't. The airline had not offered the full amount they were obligated to offer for someone getting bumped and they had not provided him with a written notice of his rights. As such, they had no right by regulation nor contract to remove him. He was fully in his rights not to move until those requirements were fulfilled.
This is incorrect.

 
You just aren't getting it. There IS NO policy dealing with passengers that have already boarded. 
You're wrong.  "Boarding" is only complete when the door closes and the final passenger manifest is delivered. 

They are not obligated to offer anything for people to voluntarility de board in an oversold situation.  The $1,350 applies to involuntary denied boarding situations, which this was. 

Eta boarding is not defined in the UA COC, I read that the above is the accepted definition in the industry.  Ymmv

 
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Obviously this is a relatively gray area where specific facts of an individual situation really really matter.  Also, almost every law enforcement agency has some sort of policy or training guidelines for use of force situations.  Here, it did not look, at least to me, that the officer directly caused the injury.  The officer looked to be grabbing the guy, the guy still passively resisted (i.e. did not fight the officer but essentially went limp/didn't let himself be carried away) and the combination of the two probably caused the injury.  

My original point was that, in terms of the appearance of violence, this was relatively tame compared to many of the arrests I've seen seen where somebody passively arrests. 
Thanks for clarifying.

 
I honestly can't believe I keep defending the airlines here, but at the point it got to it was probably a trespassing situation.  As such, law enforcement was the one who decided to forcibly remove the passenger.  Huge distinction here
Probably not as far as the public is concerned.

 
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1) They were not offering the compensation required by law

2) You shouldn't board people if you are overbooked.  You figure it out before you board people.

3) Doesn't appear he was read his rights as required by law.

4) United sucks
Yep

 
No it wasn't. The airline had not offered the full amount they were obligated to offer for someone getting bumped and they had not provided him with a written notice of his rights. As such, they had no right by regulation nor contract to remove him. He was fully in his rights not to move until those requirements were fulfilled.
Arguably, sure. But, again, the choice to physically remove the man was the call of the police.  And, our police are nowhere near trained to make the complicated guy as to whether this guy had the contractual right to be there.  They got a call from an airline saying they can't leave because person X refuses to get off the plane.  So, the police go there and ask him to leave.  He refuses -- which, while I don't know Illinois law, probably constituted an arrestable offense for failing to comply with an officer's command.  Couple this with the heightened security of airplanes and the need to get the plane in the air and I find it terribly difficult to argue or see an argument that the police acted wrongly here.  

In other words, "thanks a lot, Bin Laden."

 
UA really screwed up here. They should have handled this before they let anyone board the plane. Handling it afterward introduces the possible scenario where you can't get 4 people to willingly unboard, thus the possibility that someone may have to be forcibly removed...which might physically endanger that customer, other passengers, LE, the crew, etc.

UA took a risk trying to save a few bucks.

 
Not true.  If you insist on cash they have to pay you in cash/check. The logic being that the law needs to take into account a person who does not travel often for whom a travel voucher would be worthless. 

The minimum compesation, I believe, is the lower of 4x the ticket cost or $1,350.  

So hypothetically any offer above 800 (if the ticket is 200) for volunteers would be eating into their bottom line, so they just went involuntary, with the results now occupying the entire world.
Well they still don't "offer" it.  But more importantly this is a game-changer.  Thanks for the heads up.

 
to be fair it wasn't an overbook, per se.  They had to get a different flight crew to the destination airport to be able to make the return flight work because the flight crew that was to fly this plane was going to exceed their hours. 
So why not just let the new crew take over the plane and let the old crew go to a hotel?

 
Probably not as far as the public is concerned.
Agreed.  But my statement was in response to a post which asserted a legal position as to whether the airline had the lawful authority to remove the passenger.  

Disclaimer: while I may be "defending" the airline on some nuanced legal issues, please do not construe anything I've said to be in defense of their business or policy decisions as I think they were absolutely dreadful and, personally, I have zero sympathy for them.    

 
From HuffPo:

United might have been able to avoid all of this by making its passengers aware of the law. Federal regulations require airlines to pay cash ― lots of it ― to people they bump from flights against their wishes. (They can also cut a check, which is nearly as good.) If bumping a passenger from a domestic flight delays that passenger by more than two hours, the airline has to pay the passenger 400 percent of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, up to a maximum of $1,350. (The infographic at the end of this post explains the few exceptions to this rule.) Here’s the relevant section of the Code of Federal Regulations.

...
Multiple investigations, however, have found that airlines rarely pay passengers the full amount to which they’re entitled. In many cases, this is because the airlines ask for and get volunteers who are willing to accept less money, or even airline miles, for their inconvenience. Airlines are also supposed to tell passengers at risk of being bumped from overbooked flights how much money they will get if they’re involuntarily bumped, but it’s not clear how often they do that. 
In this case, United offered passengers $800, but didn’t get enough volunteers. One reason might be that some of the passengers on the flight in question ― a Sunday evening nonstop from Chicago to Louisville, Kentucky ― were probably entitled to more than that. A one-way ticket from Chicago to Louisville on United next Sunday would run you about $221 ― meaning that, if bumped and delayed more than two hours, you’d be entitled to $884.
Some passengers likely paid even more to be on the flight, and would be entitled to more compensation. And surely the cost to United of offering passengers more money ― even the full $1,350 ― would have been far less than the negative PR from this episode. The logical thing to do would’ve been to offer more. 

 

 
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You can only insist on cash in the involuntary context, and which is where the law kicks in.  They only offered vouchers when they were seeking volunteers.

They could have offered $800 in cash to volunteers, which would have been same to bottom line, but they did not.
:kicksrock:  I knew it was too good to be true 

 
UA really screwed up here. They should have handled this before they let anyone board the plane. Handling it afterward introduces the possible scenario where you can't get 4 people to willingly unboard, thus the possibility that someone may have to be forcibly removed...which might physically endanger that customer, other passengers, LE, the crew, etc.

UA took a risk trying to save a few bucks.
Absolutely

 
If he hires me, yes. It all matters.
:lmao: I'll certainly defer to you on this issue because this occurred in your jurisdiction.  

Nonetheless, generally the public's perception of just how meaningful it is that an officer does not read a person his rights upon arrest or detainment is incredibly skewed. 

 
I completely agree.  It's clear that they are indifferent between paying a volunteer in $800 of vouchers or paying out that amount for an involuntary removal, or else they would have offered more.  Customer experience doesn't seem to enter their equation at all.  That was the root of this problem, and they deserve to be crucified for the results. 

 
United might have been able to avoid all of this by making its passengers aware of the law. Federal regulations require airlines to pay cash ― lots of it ― to people they bump from flights against their wishes. (They can also cut a check, which is nearly as good.) If bumping a passenger from a domestic flight delays that passenger by more than two hours, the airline has to pay the passenger 400 percent of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, up to a maximum of $1,350. (The infographic at the end of this post explains the few exceptions to this rule.) Here’s the relevant section of the Code of Federal Regulations:


LII
Multiple investigations, however, have found that airlines rarely pay passengers the full amount to which they’re entitled. In many cases, this is because the airlines ask for and get volunteers who are willing to accept less money, or even airline miles, for their inconvenience. Airlines are also supposed to tell passengers at risk of being bumped from overbooked flights how much money they will get if they’re involuntarily bumped, but it’s not clear how often they do that. 
In this case, United offered passengers $800, but didn’t get enough volunteers. One reason might be that some of the passengers on the flight in question ― a Sunday evening nonstop from Chicago to Louisville, Kentucky ― were probably entitled to more than that. A one-way ticket from Chicago to Louisville on United next Sunday would run you about $221 ― meaning that, if bumped and delayed more than two hours, you’d be entitled to $884.
Some passengers likely paid even more to be on the flight, and would be entitled to more compensation. And surely the cost to United of offering passengers more money ― even the full $1,350 ― would have been far less than the negative PR from this episode. The logical thing to do would’ve been to offer more. 

 
Yep to all this.  Such a dumb, stupid move by United. 

 
Watch the videos again. When they begin, the "Police" (calling them that as that is what was printed on their jackets) are standing by the guy's row. We don't see what lead up to that point nor what was said. They didn't run onto the plane and storm this guy immediately with nothing said, though. That we can see. I could be wrong, but I suspect they approached his row and told him to get up because he needs to get off the plane. He may not have ever even looked up from his phone which he's clinging to throughout the process. When they told him to get up and he ignored them, the easy way was no longer an option and it was time for the hard way. It takes the officer a few tries to pull the guy out of his seat and it would seem the last one jerked him hard enough that he hit his face on the armrest across the aisle.

Some of you people and the whole "these hired goons just came on to the plane and beat the #### out of a senior citizen for absolutely no reason" need to get a grip.
After rewatching, it seems like the passenger had his seatbelt on. After a few attempts to pull him out of the seat, the guy wearing jeans reaches in with his right hand to unbuckle the passenger. You can hear a click right before he is sling shotted into the arm rest.

 
UA really screwed up here. They should have handled this before they let anyone board the plane. Handling it afterward introduces the possible scenario where you can't get 4 people to willingly unboard, thus the possibility that someone may have to be forcibly removed...which might physically endanger that customer, other passengers, LE, the crew, etc.

UA took a risk trying to save a few bucks.
Indeed. As I brought up earlier, this was a foreseeable consequence, no matter how unlikely. It was also foreseeable that the entire incident might be captured on multiple cell phones with the video(s) going viral, resulting in a PR disaster that would not only cost millions in lost revenue, but from which the United brand might never recover.

 
so, the way I'm picturing it is... they drag him off the plane and down the tunnel to the desk area and he's still unconscious or all dazed and out of it... then they start talking to the cute check-in lady or start discussing what they should do with him when he suddenly comes to and hops up and runs down the gate tunnel and up the aisle of the plane they just dragged him down.  But he wasn't bleeding from his mouth before... maybe he busted out some miagi and broke free by force

 
Indeed. As I brought up earlier, this was a foreseeable consequence, no matter how unlikely. It was also foreseeable that the entire incident might be captured on multiple cell phones with the video(s) going viral, resulting in a PR disaster that would not only cost millions in lost revenue, but from which the United brand might never recover.
Yeah, their stock took a KILLING today. :lol:   But in all seriousness, a professional says this: United should have increased the compensation offered to passengers to entice volunteers, CFRA Research analyst Jim Corridore wrote in a client note Monday. “We think this situation was handled in a deplorable fashion, but note that United has the right to refuse boarding to any passenger for any reason,” he said, adding that “demand for UAL flights are unlikely to be affected by this poor customer service incident.”

 
so, the way I'm picturing it is... they drag him off the plane and down the tunnel to the desk area and he's still unconscious or all dazed and out of it... then they start talking to the cute check-in lady or start discussing what they should do with him when he suddenly comes to and hops up and runs down the gate tunnel and up the aisle of the plane they just dragged him down. 
All to the tune of a Benny Hill skit.

 
Guys, if you hate United so much, go book a flight on a different carrier, like America West, or US Air, or Continental, or TWA, or Northwest.  I think our choices are dwindling, which might be one of the reasons passengers get treated so badly.  I frankly think every one of these airlines (except maybe Southwest) would do the same thing.  They all suck.

 
Guys, if you hate United so much, go book a flight on a different carrier, like America West, or US Air, or Continental, or TWA, or Northwest.  I think our choices are dwindling, which might be one of the reasons passengers get treated so badly.  I frankly think every one of these airlines (except maybe Southwest) would do the same thing.  They all suck.
Southwest overbooks, but if they've given you a boarding pass, then you're safe.

That's one of the benefits of not having assigned seating. 

 
Guys, if you hate United so much, go book a flight on a different carrier, like America West, or US Air, or Continental, or TWA, or Northwest.  I think our choices are dwindling, which might be one of the reasons passengers get treated so badly.  I frankly think every one of these airlines (except maybe Southwest) would do the same thing.  They all suck.
Was the gist of an earlier article I was reading. Not many options, airlines are overbooking to maximize revenue, leads to people getting bumped (usually w/o anything near this sort of outcome).

 
Can United really do this? Legally, yes. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/united-video-scandal-law/522552/

Point 25 describes in detail how much the airline is willing to pay to entice passengers off of an oversold flight, but it also reserves the right to deny boarding to passengers trying to get on to an oversold flight.  https://www.complianceweek.com/blogs/coffin-on-compliance/sometimes-the-rules-will-not-save-you#.WOv9y2d0o4t
It wasn't oversold. How do you not get that? They wanted to get some employees from A to B. Not paying customers. 

Stop saying it was oversold. 

 
It wasn't oversold. How do you not get that? They wanted to get some employees from A to B. Not paying customers. 

Stop saying it was oversold. 
I didn't say it was oversold. How do you not get that? It was a quote from the linked article. RIF.

 
Yeah, their stock took a KILLING today. :lol:   But in all seriousness, a professional says this: United should have increased the compensation offered to passengers to entice volunteers, CFRA Research analyst Jim Corridore wrote in a client note Monday. “We think this situation was handled in a deplorable fashion, but note that United has the right to refuse boarding to any passenger for any reason,” he said, adding that “demand for UAL flights are unlikely to be affected by this poor customer service incident.”
But they didn't refuse him from boarding, since he literally boarded the plane already. 

 
Lmao you keep quoting that article that states it was oversold 
I wonder why I quoted that article twice? Maybe it's because I decided not to be an ####### when someone asked for the link so I posted it again. :shrug: I'm not concerned about whether it was "oversold" or "booked fully" or half full. All the sites I've read say it was within their legal rights to do what they did. Haven't seen anything to the contrary outside some internet lawyers trying to interpret UA policy.

 
I agree with this guy:

Young_Hickory 556 points 4 hours ago 


I am a lawyer and I think you guys are wildly underestimating how complicated this might be. This was done post-boarding, and he wasn't a security threat. That's a unusual case.

There are also details we don't know that could be really important, like exactly what the United employees said to the LEOs and what exactly the LEOs communicated to the passenger.

Don't assume that just because an airline can do one thing that they can do a superficially similar thing. This is a highly regulated industry with very particular rules and procedures. We don't know if they were followed. There are even potential 4th amendment issues based on the use of force. 

I'm not saying it's one way or other, just that it's more complicated than "their airplane, they can boot you if they want."



 

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