Does Colts/Pats count as a "big game" (1 Viewer)

[smcindoe]

Look, I like to bash Manning as much as the next guy. But the whole "he can't win the big game" schtick is getting ridiculous. It seems like every time he loses, we all nod and say "yep, another choke in a big game". And when he wins, we say "well, fine, but that wasn't really a big game".

He couldn't win the big game to get the Colts into the playoffs. Then he did, and it wasn't a big game any more.

He couldn't win in the playoffs. Then he did, and that wasn't a big game any more.

He couldn't win in New England. Then he did, and that wasn't a big game any more.

So would beating Brady in the AFC championship count as a big game? Or does he have to win the Super Bowl? At this point I think you could make a case for either answer, but let's get the discussion out there before we know the results ... for a change.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think you have to clarify even more. It is only a big game if Manning has a great game and leads the team on a game winning drive and its the super bowl, the second time around. Then Manning will get credit for being able to win the big game. Until then he is just a choker with great WRs.

 

[harrycarey]

If Peyton loses it's a big game, if he wins it isn't

 

[PatsWillWin]

For Peyton Manning, this is the very definition of the big game.

And I would submit that last week against Balitmore was definitely a big game. Manning did enough to win.

 

[PsychoMan]

the whole "he can't win the big game" schtick is getting ridiculous

holy crap no kiddingi think he has won a few "big games" up to this point, but this one will easily be his biggest.

 

[The Man With No Name]

So would beating Brady in the AFC championship count as a big game? Or does he have to win the Super Bowl? At this point I think you could make a case for either answer, but let's get the discussion out there before we know the results ... for a change.

It is a big game, but it's the Colts against the Patriots, not Manning against Brady. They are never playing against each other.

 

[wadegarrett]

Football is a "team" sport, no?

 

[TD Ryan]

when you are labeled a "choker", whether it's deserved or not, the only way to shed that label is win the biggest game of them all.

Of course this week vs. NE is a big game!

And if it weren't for the history between IND and NE, the game against BAL would have technically been "bigger" (on the road against a higher seed).

I posted in another thread, not only does Manning have to beat NE, he has to go on to win the SuperBowl.

If you want, draw the parallell between the Red Sox in the World Series.

Just beating the Yankees wouldn't have been enough.

And winning the World Series without going thru the Yankees would have still left some "doubt".

Really this is an opportunity for Manning to right every wrong over a 2-game span...

AND as I said in that other thread, no matter what Manning does... even if he wins the SuperBowl, there will be haters that claim he didn't "win by enough" or "win convincingly enough" or that his team somehow carried him.

 

[PsychoMan]

So would beating Brady in the AFC championship count as a big game? Or does he have to win the Super Bowl? At this point I think you could make a case for either answer, but let's get the discussion out there before we know the results ... for a change.

It is a big game, but it's the Colts against the Patriots, not Manning against Brady. They are never playing against each other.

Exactly. Also, in defense of Manning, when these teams face off, he is always up against a greater challenge than what Brady faces ...New England Defense > Indy Defense

Bellichek > Dungy

 

[Gr00vus]

Really this is an opportunity for Manning to right every wrong over a 2-game span...

There are many demons to be dealt with and exorcised in this one for Manning. I think this is the biggest game of his career to date.And any time there's a shot at the Super Bowl on the line, yes it's a big game in a general sense.

 

[Bri]

This is a big game but if he wins, after that will be an even bigger game. That's how it goes.

While this stuff is probably annoying to Peyton, I'm sure he'd prefer he hears it at the Supe rather than while he's sitting at home.

It's just how it goes.

If Peyton+the Colts win it all, next year folks will be questionning something else, maybe his decision making. It just goes with the territory.

There's weeks I wish the Pats would get rid of Watson and others I wonder why Brady throws to anyone but him.

Peyton's always going to be second guessed.

 

[H.K.]

Of course it is a big game.

Let's not forget that Brady can win a fourth SB if the Pats advance, that puts him in very rare company if he can do it. Remarkable achievement for a guy who isn't doing it with many surefire HOF'ers around him like the other QB's who achieved the feat.

 

[pats3in4]

There are different types of "big games".

Win in the playoffs - check...Manning won that type of "big game".

Beat New England - check...Manning won that type of "big game", beating a nemesis.

He's got a few left to conquer:

Win an AFCCG.

Beat the Pats in the playoffs - Sunday he might kill two birds with one stone.

Win the SB.

I don't think we should belittle previous conquests in the other big games, but just acknowledge that there are different types of big games and he's slowly putting the tick mark next to each type. Good for him.

 

[smcindoe]

This is a big game but if he wins, after that will be an even bigger game. That's how it goes.

Definitely. But for sake of argument, if he wins this weekend and then loses in the super bowl, has he still "never won a big game"?

 

[PatsWillWin]

If the Patriots win, then yes it is a big game and Manning still can't win them.

If the Colts win, then no it wasn't a big game, and Manning still can't win them unless he beats the Patriots in the playoffs at HOME with a healthy Rodney Harrison when the weather is below 30 degrees and there's wind.

 

[Bri]

This is a big game but if he wins, after that will be an even bigger game. That's how it goes.

Definitely. But for sake of argument, if he wins this weekend and then loses in the super bowl, has he still "never won a big game"?

You snipped my post some, the gist of what I was saying is there will always be second guessing.What you asked above, that's the easy second guess so yeah it'll probably be said. If he wins the Supe, then maybe they'll look at his gametime decisions more closely and second guess that. There is always going to be something to second guess.I would expect you to say "that's unfair" but keep in mind it'll only last til the Supe so a week(or is it two?). After that, if he loses in the Supe that'll give some "ammo" to the "can't win the big game" argument. If he wins, it'll be onto the next thing to second guess.

 

[AB in DC]

A lot of here.

And

 

[Mungo Burrows]

For Peyton Manning, this is the very definition of the big game.

And I would submit that last week against Balitmore was definitely a big game. Manning The Colts did enough to win in spite of Manning's poor performance.

fixed.

 

[My_Favorite_Team_is]

Look, I like to bash Manning as much as the next guy. But the whole "he can't win the big game" schtick is getting ridiculous. It seems like every time he loses, we all nod and say "yep, another choke in a big game". And when he wins, we say "well, fine, but that wasn't really a big game".

He couldn't win the big game to get the Colts into the playoffs. Then he did, and it wasn't a big game any more.

He couldn't win in the playoffs. Then he did, and that wasn't a big game any more.

He couldn't win in New England. Then he did, and that wasn't a big game any more.

So would beating Brady in the AFC championship count as a big game? Or does he have to win the Super Bowl? At this point I think you could make a case for either answer, but let's get the discussion out there before we know the results ... for a change.

Banner, Hat, and Tee Shirt games are always big games: so, yes this is a big game.

 

[H.K.]

But for sake of argument, if he wins this weekend and then loses in the super bowl, has he still "never won a big game"?

Then he takes a seat next to Fouts. This way Stabler can call them both "Mr. Never Won The Big One" when he drinks his beers.

 

[Gr00vus]

But for sake of argument, if he wins this weekend and then loses in the super bowl, has he still "never won a big game"?

Then he takes a seat next to Fouts. This way Stabler can call them both "Mr. Never Won The Big One" when he drinks his beers.

Nah, Fouts never even made it to the big one. Manning would be one up on him at least.

 

[JBTV]

There are different types of "big games".Win in the playoffs - check...Manning won that type of "big game".Beat New England - check...Manning won that type of "big game", beating a nemesis.He's got a few left to conquer:Win an AFCCG.Beat the Pats in the playoffs - Sunday he might kill two birds with one stone.Win the SB.I don't think we should belittle previous conquests in the other big games, but just acknowledge that there are different types of big games and he's slowly putting the tick mark next to each type. Good for him.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Look, I like to bash Manning as much as the next guy. But the whole "he can't win the big game" schtick is getting ridiculous. It seems like every time he loses, we all nod and say "yep, another choke in a big game". And when he wins, we say "well, fine, but that wasn't really a big game".

He couldn't win the big game to get the Colts into the playoffs. Then he did, and it wasn't a big game any more.

He couldn't win in the playoffs. Then he did, and that wasn't a big game any more.

He couldn't win in New England. Then he did, and that wasn't a big game any more.

So would beating Brady in the AFC championship count as a big game? Or does he have to win the Super Bowl? At this point I think you could make a case for either answer, but let's get the discussion out there before we know the results ... for a change.

Banner, Hat, and Tee Shirt games are always big games: so, yes this is a big game.

This is the only definition of a big game that matters. If you think that with the career that Manning has had a wild card victory over Denver or KC is a big game then so be it.QB's are defined by Championships and you cant win it unless you get to the Bowl first.

People say that Manning has never won a big game because he has only played in 1 AFC Championship game and he lost it. Tom Brady is 6-0 in BIG games. If you want to expand this to divisional playoff games then Manning is 2-4. Tom Brady is 10-0. I cant see adding Wild Card games.

People act as if Manning doesnt get credit when the Colts win and he gets lambasted when he plays great but the Colts still lose because of their D. Name me one playoff game where Manning played well and the Colts lost? He has never lost a shootout in the playoffs. When the other team has a shaky D, the Colts win. Manning gets plenty of credit.

His team has never even scored 20 points and has ave 11.33 points in all playoff losses:

Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD

---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------

1999 ten L,16-19 | 19 43 227 0 0 | 2 22 1

2000 mia L,17-23 | 17 32 194 1 0 | 1 -2 0

2002 nyj L,0-41 | 14 31 137 0 2 | 1 2 0

2003 den W,41-10 | 22 26 377 5 0 | 1 0 0

2003 kan W,38-31 | 22 30 304 3 0 | 1 -1 0

2003 nwe L,14-24 | 23 47 237 1 4 | 2 4 0

2004 den W,49-24 | 27 33 457 4 1 | 1 1 1

2004 nwe L,3-20 | 27 42 238 0 1 | 1 6 0

2005 pit L,18-21 | 22 38 290 1 0 | 0 0 0

2006 kan W,23-8 | 30 38 268 1 3 | 2 -2 0

2006 bal W,15-6 | 15 30 170 0 2 | 3 5 0

---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------

TOTAL | 238 390 2899 16 13 | 15 35 2

 

[Despyzer]

He couldn't win the big game to get the Colts into the playoffs. Then he did, and it wasn't a big game any more.He couldn't win in the playoffs. Then he did, and that wasn't a big game any more.

This is all just a reasonable progression. It would be kinda dumb to point out that Peyton had never won a Super Bowl before he ever made the playoffs or won a game in the playoffs.Right now we can point out that he has never been to the Super Bowl. If he makes it and loses then we can say he has never won a championship. This isn't "can't win the big game" schtick, it's simply stating the facts.

 

[ICON211]

The bigger the game the smaller the Manning.

 

[Tenacious D]

When did winning a conference championship not become a "big game"? Someone better send the media the memo if the Super Bowl is the only "big game" of the year. They were telling us there were "must win" big games back in Week Two.

Who are the three guys with Super Bowl rings on the board who thumbed their noses at this not being a big game in the poll?

 

[Hairy Snowman]

I think it was Joe that asked at some point what would happen to the Colts IF they lose?

Manning will develop a nervous tick when people mention the patriots. Patriots have shot at 4th SB.

Yet if Manning finally wins against Brady/Belichik in the playoffs (Much like Jordan with the Pistons in basketball) maybe he goes on to win multiple champioships and become truly the greatest?

I think this is a HUGE game for Manning. I think this is a HUGE game to Marvin. That and Brady has to be feeling confident also, he has had some of his greatest successes against the Colts.

BIG. HUGE. ALMOST AS BIG AS IT GETS.

 

[ericttspikes]

This is a huge game. I'd argue that the KC and Balt games were big games too, and the Colts won despite Manning who simply hasn't played that great in the playoffs.....again.

 

[JohnnyU]

I think it was Joe that asked at some point what would happen to the Colts IF they lose?Manning will develop a nervous tick when people mention the patriots. Patriots have shot at 4th SB.

I don't think Manning will....I don't think Manning will develop....I don't think manning will develop a ......I don't think Manning will develop a nervous.....I don't think Manning will develop a nervous tick. Uh, Uh, Uh, that's all I have to say about that.

 

[jurb26]

There is a differnece between a big game and "THE" big game. Sure he will be playing in a big game this week. This is still not "THE" big game.

 

[Wheelhouse]

Any playoff game should be considered a "big game", which means last week's win at Baltimore was a big game.

...but is he off the hook? No. But his confidence in big games is growing.

 

[jurb26]

Any playoff game should be considered a "big game", which means last week's win at Baltimore was a big game. ...but is he off the hook? No. But his confidence in big games is growing.

He is not off the hook because the whole point is that he can not win "THE" big game. Ironically, poor performances in other big games have lead to this and manifested a monster. Until Manning wins a Super Bowl, this will stick.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

There is a differnece between a big game and "THE" big game. Sure he will be playing in a big game this week. This is still not "THE" big game.

Exactly. This is goofiness regarding Peyton Manning and "the games are only big if he loses." Please. Dan Fouts won playoff elimination games. People say- "he could never get to the big one." Dan Marino won a few big games, but no Super Bowls. People say, He couldn't win the big one." Bill Cowher coached AFC championship winning teams. Before last year, people said- "He couldn't win the big one." Mack Brown couldn't win the one, until 2006. In football, if you are talking about The big Game- there is only one- the Superbowl.

 

[roadkill1292]

For Peyton Manning, this is the very definition of the big game.

And I would submit that last week against Balitmore was definitely a big game. Manning The Colts did enough to win in spite of Manning's poor performance.

fixed.

Mungo, I know you're a Ratbird guy like me and I've seen this opinion ventured many times elsewhere. But I have to disagree; Manning was a half step ahead of the Ravens' defense that entire game. You're as aware as I am that Baltimore has strangled many an opposing QB this year but they only got to him once on Sunday. And while he may not have been making big plays or posting gaudy stats, he was throwing the four yard out on third-and-three, or audibling to the right run. After the game, Rex Ryan told Sports Illustrated something along the lines of "Damn, we didn't fool him once."Sometimes I think we make too much in here of QBs "underperforming" in the playoffs. This isn't Arizona or Detroit in October that these guys are up against. These are the best teams in the league, playing their hardest. How many 300 yard, 3 TD days can anyone really expect?

 

[Iron Mike Tomczak]

Its give and take here.

Let me explain. If Manning wins the AFCC game, most will have to give him credit for winning a "big game" which this clearly is and I have to comment on the stupidity of this poll. But I will say, there is an obvious bigger game than this one. So what I would love is for the Colts to win this week and tank in the SB. That way everyones happy. Fans or Non Haters of Manning will force Haters to give him credit for winning a "big game" yet the Haters can say "he may of won that but he lost the real Big Game" and non haters will have to respect that. That way everyone has some credibility and everyone can feel they are right..

 

[jurb26]

Its give and take here.Let me explain. If Manning wins the AFCC game, most will have to give him credit for winning a "big game" which this clearly is and I have to comment on the stupidity of this poll. But I will say, there is an obvious bigger game than this one. So what I would love is for the Colts to win this week and tank in the SB. That way everyones happy. Fans or Non Haters of Manning will force Haters to give him credit for winning a "big game" yet the Haters can say "he may of won that but he lost the real Big Game" and non haters will have to respect that. That way everyone has some credibility and everyone can feel they are right..

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

No reason to dance around it-- If Manning never wins a Super Bowl, it can be said that he couldn't win a big game. Nothing he can do this weekend can preserve his legacy as a "big game QB." But he can further damage it by losing. That's the truth.

Think that's unfair? Shoulda beaten the Pats in New England in the Championship game. Shoulda beaten the Steelers last year. Last week was a step in the right direction. This week would be another. But if he loses in the Super Bowl, and never wins one...he couldn't win the game when it counted the most. No game is bigger, nothing means more than the Super Bowl. You can't win the Super Bowl this week.

And nothing that hapens Sunday takes Brady's multiple SB wins away. Sorry, that's what it means to have a track record.

People call that "hating" Manning, but the truth is that the opposing team's fans LOVE Manning. He doesn't beat them when it counts the most.

 

[Iron Mike Tomczak]

I do love Manning.

Here We Go Steelers (...2007!!!)

 

[JohnnyU]

Without reading all the posts, who are the idiots who said this wasn't a big game? I would like to put them on my ignore list.

 

[BGP]

Well, I remember when John Elway played, and he was criticized for melting down in the Super Bowl until the Broncos won it in 97. I imagine it will be the same with Manning. He must be a part of a Super Bowl WINNING Colts team. Until that happens, it won't stop.

 

[videoguy505]

It's "a" big game, but by no means "The Big Game" should the Colts win on Sunday. "The" Big Game is played on 2/4/07.

But seeing as he hasn't won an AFCC Game yet, I'd still say he hasn't won "a" big game in his career.

 

[Reek]

Manning is also a victim of expectations

Manning has always been heralded as the uber-QB, much like Marino was in his day. Assuming he avoids injury, he could end up catching Marino as the (statistically) best QB never to win a SB. Anything less than a SB victory would be "under-performing" for Manning, relative to expectations.

Brady, on the other hand, has outperformed his expectations. Many were second-guessing Belichick when he gave Brady the starting job, but he was proved right and now is a genius because of that.

 

[H.K.]

No reason to dance around it-- If Manning never wins a Super Bowl, it can be said that he couldn't win a big game. Nothing he can do this weekend can preserve his legacy as a "big game QB." But he can further damage it by losing. That's the truth.Think that's unfair? Shoulda beaten the Pats in New England in the Championship game. Shoulda beaten the Steelers last year. Last week was a step in the right direction. This week would be another. But if he loses in the Super Bowl, and never wins one...he couldn't win the game when it counted the most. No game is bigger, nothing means more than the Super Bowl. You can't win the Super Bowl this week.And nothing that hapens Sunday takes Brady's multiple SB wins away. Sorry, that's what it means to have a track record.People call that "hating" Manning, but the truth is that the opposing team's fans LOVE Manning. He doesn't beat them when it counts the most.

 

[JohnnyU]

No reason to dance around it-- If Manning never wins a Super Bowl, it can be said that he couldn't win a big game. Nothing he can do this weekend can preserve his legacy as a "big game QB." But he can further damage it by losing. That's the truth.Think that's unfair? Shoulda beaten the Pats in New England in the Championship game. Shoulda beaten the Steelers last year. Last week was a step in the right direction. This week would be another. But if he loses in the Super Bowl, and never wins one...he couldn't win the game when it counted the most. No game is bigger, nothing means more than the Super Bowl. You can't win the Super Bowl this week.And nothing that hapens Sunday takes Brady's multiple SB wins away. Sorry, that's what it means to have a track record.People call that "hating" Manning, but the truth is that the opposing team's fans LOVE Manning. He doesn't beat them when it counts the most.

You know what, who cares? All the talk has been talked to death. Now it's time to play the game. I hope the Colts win, and I could care less whether Peyton has a good game or not as long as the Colts win. For me personally, it's been 37 years, so I could care less about one person. All I care about is a Colts victory. You guys can play the "Peyton Game" all you want, but to me, in the end all I care about is a Colts Super Bowl appearance.

 

[ICON211]

For Peyton Manning, this is the very definition of the big game.

And I would submit that last week against Balitmore was definitely a big game. Manning The Colts did enough to win in spite of Manning's poor performance.

fixed.

Mungo, I know you're a Ratbird guy like me and I've seen this opinion ventured many times elsewhere. But I have to disagree; Manning was a half step ahead of the Ravens' defense that entire game. You're as aware as I am that Baltimore has strangled many an opposing QB this year but they only got to him once on Sunday. And while he may not have been making big plays or posting gaudy stats, he was throwing the four yard out on third-and-three, or audibling to the right run. After the game, Rex Ryan told Sports Illustrated something along the lines of "Damn, we didn't fool him once."Sometimes I think we make too much in here of QBs "underperforming" in the playoffs. This isn't Arizona or Detroit in October that these guys are up against. These are the best teams in the league, playing their hardest. How many 300 yard, 3 TD days can anyone really expect?

He threw 2 ints that easily could have been 4 and didn't get the team in the end zone once. He played a poor game last week, but did make a big throw late. Did you watch the game?

 

[Ron_Mexico]

Is this a real question ?

 

[Saints-Man]

Yes, it is a big game. If they win, the next one will also be a big game.

 

[Banger]

isn't every playoff game a big game?

 

[Ron_Mexico]

... and when they lose, Peyton will

have lost yet another "big game"

against Tom Brady.

 

[roadkill1292]

For Peyton Manning, this is the very definition of the big game.

And I would submit that last week against Balitmore was definitely a big game. Manning The Colts did enough to win in spite of Manning's poor performance.

fixed.

Mungo, I know you're a Ratbird guy like me and I've seen this opinion ventured many times elsewhere. But I have to disagree; Manning was a half step ahead of the Ravens' defense that entire game. You're as aware as I am that Baltimore has strangled many an opposing QB this year but they only got to him once on Sunday. And while he may not have been making big plays or posting gaudy stats, he was throwing the four yard out on third-and-three, or audibling to the right run. After the game, Rex Ryan told Sports Illustrated something along the lines of "Damn, we didn't fool him once."Sometimes I think we make too much in here of QBs "underperforming" in the playoffs. This isn't Arizona or Detroit in October that these guys are up against. These are the best teams in the league, playing their hardest. How many 300 yard, 3 TD days can anyone really expect?

He threw 2 ints that easily could have been 4 and didn't get the team in the end zone once. He played a poor game last week, but did make a big throw late. Did you watch the game?

Every play, including the picks and near picks.