Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (1 Viewer)

[proninja]

You know what also is a labor issue? Being able to work in a non-hostile environment, free of harassment. How convenient that you forgot that. Black, White, Green, Purple it doesn't matter. You have the right to be able to do your job without any undue stress caused by your coworkers. Applies to any workplace.

Ted Wells goes into exhaustive detail into all the resources available to Martin, which he didn't use, both with the franchise and with the NFL in general. He also goes into great length about the steps taken by the franchise and the NFL in general about workplace safety.

Even when asked directly, Martin said nothing to many people who could have helped him.

Did the Dolphins show a reasonable standard of care? Wells goes into great detail the steps the Dolphins made once Martin left and as they became aware.

The onus is on Jim Turner, the position coach, and since he owes his career to Mike Sherman and Joe Philbin, he will and did fall on his sword, and it ends there.

Martin just wouldn't talk, and while it might be consistent with a bullied person trying to fit in, he participated at times in tormenting other players.

I'm not saying what happened to Martin was right, but whether he has standing to sue and win is a whole different ballgame.

There is no lawsuit. Martin can try and the NFL will open up it's war chest and crush him. Martin will get every penny of his rookie contract. The NFL may give him a post career job in terms of outreach and player development for good will and PR purposes and the Dolphins will probably be willing to pay for whatever mental health/psychiatric needs Martin has for life, if need be, but that's it.

The bolded is the part that is not getting enough attention in my opinion. In everyone's wild race to rush to the side of the bullied, they failed to acknowledge that he also was a bully himself.In addition to the stuff he participated in against Nate Garner, the things Martin said about Andrew McDonald were cruel and homophobic, and said behind his back to his teammates. At least the other D-Bags had the cajones to say things to his face and not behind his back like a jealous high school JV cheerleader.

I know...he was just trying to fit in.

A lot of guys that wore swastikas in Nazi Germany were just trying to fit in. That was not any type of acceptable excuse for the deplorable acts that they performed on fellow human beings.

I suppose the captain must go down with the ship. :tips40:

 

[ChuckLiddell]

In everyone's wild race to rush to the side of the bullied, they failed to acknowledge that he also was a bully himself.In addition to the stuff he participated in against Nate Garner, the things Martin said about Andrew McDonald were cruel and homophobic, and said behind his back to his teammates. At least the other D-Bags had the cajones to say things to his face and not behind his back like a jealous high school JV cheerleader.

I know...he was just trying to fit in.

A lot of guys that wore swastikas in Nazi Germany were just trying to fit in. That was not any type of acceptable excuse for the deplorable acts that they performed on fellow human beings.

Yeah, I guess that's everyone's view of this now that the complete report is out --- Martin was a bully and was like Nazis.

I knew someone would say something like that...that I was comparing Martin to Nazis. I figured it would be you.

Since you clearly require extra explanations, I was not comparing Jonathan Martin to a Nazi. I was merely pointing out the fact that "trying to fit in" - as many Nazis likely were since that many people could not have possibly believed that extermination of an entire race makes sense - is not an excuse for bad behavior.

If you cannot see where and how Martin participated in bullying Nate Garner and made homophobic comments about Andrew McDonald, then you either did not read the report, or have re-applied your blinders so that you wont see anything you dont want to.

 

[squistion]

In everyone's wild race to rush to the side of the bullied, they failed to acknowledge that he also was a bully himself.In addition to the stuff he participated in against Nate Garner, the things Martin said about Andrew McDonald were cruel and homophobic, and said behind his back to his teammates. At least the other D-Bags had the cajones to say things to his face and not behind his back like a jealous high school JV cheerleader.

I know...he was just trying to fit in.

A lot of guys that wore swastikas in Nazi Germany were just trying to fit in. That was not any type of acceptable excuse for the deplorable acts that they performed on fellow human beings.

Yeah, I guess that's everyone's view of this now that the complete report is out --- Martin was a bully and was like Nazis.

I knew someone would say something like that...that I was comparing Martin to Nazis. I figured it would be you.

Since you clearly require extra explanations, I was not comparing Jonathan Martin to a Nazi. I was merely pointing out the fact that "trying to fit in" - as many Nazis likely were since that many people could not have possibly believed that extermination of an entire race makes sense - is not an excuse for bad behavior.

If you cannot see where and how Martin participated in bullying Nate Garner and made homophobic comments about Andrew McDonald, then you either did not read the report, or have re-applied your blinders so that you wont see anything you dont want to.

Which was comparing him to a Nazi. Sorry, but don't make the analogy and then be indignant that people call you on that.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I'm not comparing anyone to Nazis, but...

 

[proninja]

I'm not comparing anyone to Nazis, but...

In his defense, I'm sure many adults also don't know the meaning of the word "comparing"

 

[ChuckLiddell]

You know what also is a labor issue? Being able to work in a non-hostile environment, free of harassment. How convenient that you forgot that. Black, White, Green, Purple it doesn't matter. You have the right to be able to do your job without any undue stress caused by your coworkers. Applies to any workplace.

Ted Wells goes into exhaustive detail into all the resources available to Martin, which he didn't use, both with the franchise and with the NFL in general. He also goes into great length about the steps taken by the franchise and the NFL in general about workplace safety.

Even when asked directly, Martin said nothing to many people who could have helped him.

Did the Dolphins show a reasonable standard of care? Wells goes into great detail the steps the Dolphins made once Martin left and as they became aware.

The onus is on Jim Turner, the position coach, and since he owes his career to Mike Sherman and Joe Philbin, he will and did fall on his sword, and it ends there.

Martin just wouldn't talk, and while it might be consistent with a bullied person trying to fit in, he participated at times in tormenting other players.

I'm not saying what happened to Martin was right, but whether he has standing to sue and win is a whole different ballgame.

There is no lawsuit. Martin can try and the NFL will open up it's war chest and crush him. Martin will get every penny of his rookie contract. The NFL may give him a post career job in terms of outreach and player development for good will and PR purposes and the Dolphins will probably be willing to pay for whatever mental health/psychiatric needs Martin has for life, if need be, but that's it.

The bolded is the part that is not getting enough attention in my opinion. In everyone's wild race to rush to the side of the bullied, they failed to acknowledge that he also was a bully himself.In addition to the stuff he participated in against Nate Garner, the things Martin said about Andrew McDonald were cruel and homophobic, and said behind his back to his teammates. At least the other D-Bags had the cajones to say things to his face and not behind his back like a jealous high school JV cheerleader.

I know...he was just trying to fit in.

A lot of guys that wore swastikas in Nazi Germany were just trying to fit in. That was not any type of acceptable excuse for the deplorable acts that they performed on fellow human beings.

I suppose the captain must go down with the ship. :tips40:

I dont know what :tips40: means, so I am not sure how to respond.

If you are insinuating that I am sticking to my guns, then to some extent, you are right.

The things that were said to Martin were way worse than I thought...but they were still just words...not sticks or stones. Unacceptable and embarrassing...but not worse than driving drunk and risking the lives of others, which is so commonplace in the NFL that we dont even pay attention to it anymore.

I still dont believe any racism was involved toward Martin. I do believe it was toward the trainer. Not acceptable.

Comments about mother and sister...not acceptable. But it is not nearly as bad in my opinion as it is in some of yours. To me, it is boys being boys in very very poor taste. But, not that big of a deal to most guys with their friends, nonetheless 25 year old gladiators on HGH.

I believe those guys truly loved Martin, but that he was an easy target for a bunch of dimwitted d-bags who very improperly channeled their own personal insecurities toward the low man on the totem pole. Didnt help that he came from such a completely different background and had not been exposed to this before. I believe he was mistreated by a bunch of Neanderthals who didnt even realize how it was effecting him - which is partially his own fault. He never said anything about it to anyone, and he participated in similar behavior toward others. How could they know that he was so morally against something that he was participating in himself? How is that OK with so many people on here. In fact, how do we not allow for the fact that maybe Pouncey and Jerry were just trying to fit in also, and they were emotionally wounded by the hazing that went their way? Because they didnt lose it on the lunch room floor?

If Pouncey and Jerry came out today and said that they were just trying to fit in, would all be forgiven? How about Richie? I think not. And justifiably.

Sorry...I have no tolerance for the absurd level of hypocrisy from so many people in this thread. It does not mean that I approve of Martin's treatment...I dont. I also do not approve of McDonald or Garner's treatment by Richie, Pouncey, Jerry, Turner...or from Jonathan Martin.

How can people not see this? The only way is if they dont want to.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I'm not comparing anyone to Nazis, but...

In his defense, I'm sure many adults also don't know the meaning of the word "comparing"

I am comparing the concept. Holy smokes! You guys are unbelievable! I DONT THINK JONATHAN MARTIN IS A NAZI OR ACTED LIKE ONE. Can we agree to disagree on this point and move on? Wow.

 

[fatness]

In everyone's wild race to rush to the side of the bullied, they failed to acknowledge that he also was a bully himself.In addition to the stuff he participated in against Nate Garner, the things Martin said about Andrew McDonald were cruel and homophobic, and said behind his back to his teammates. At least the other D-Bags had the cajones to say things to his face and not behind his back like a jealous high school JV cheerleader.

I know...he was just trying to fit in.

A lot of guys that wore swastikas in Nazi Germany were just trying to fit in. That was not any type of acceptable excuse for the deplorable acts that they performed on fellow human beings.

Yeah, I guess that's everyone's view of this now that the complete report is out --- Martin was a bully and was like Nazis.

I knew someone would say something like that...that I was comparing Martin to Nazis. I figured it would be you.

Since you clearly require extra explanations, I was not comparing Jonathan Martin to a Nazi. I was merely pointing out the fact that "trying to fit in" - as many Nazis likely were since that many people could not have possibly believed that extermination of an entire race makes sense - is not an excuse for bad behavior.

 

[fatness]

I believe those guys truly loved Martin

I don't.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

English is hard

 

[proninja]

I'm not comparing anyone to Nazis, but...

In his defense, I'm sure many adults also don't know the meaning of the word "comparing"

I am comparing the concept. Holy smokes! You guys are unbelievable! I DONT THINK JONATHAN MARTIN IS A NAZI OR ACTED LIKE ONE. Can we agree to disagree on this point and move on? Wow.

Aside from that part where you said Martin acted like the Nazis, you mean?

 

[KCitons]

Still trying to figure out why I got so much grief over my number posts in this thread. 90% of the time I was responding to Chuck. Even now that the Wells report shows I was correct in my opinion, Chuck still soldiers on.

Where is Slapdash to complain about this thread? (Oh yeah, he's a dolphins fan too)

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Still trying to figure out why I got so much grief over my number posts in this thread. 90% of the time I was responding to Chuck. Even now that the Wells report shows I was correct in my opinion, Chuck still soldiers on.

Where is Slapdash to complain about this thread? (Oh yeah, he's a dolphins fan too)

You should bring back the Incognito Kool Aid Man avatar.

I didn't think Slapdash was a bad guy. It seemed more like he just hated the situation.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I'm not comparing anyone to Nazis, but...

In his defense, I'm sure many adults also don't know the meaning of the word "comparing"

I am comparing the concept. Holy smokes! You guys are unbelievable! I DONT THINK JONATHAN MARTIN IS A NAZI OR ACTED LIKE ONE. Can we agree to disagree on this point and move on? Wow.

Aside from that part where you said Martin acted like the Nazis, you mean?

 

[az_prof]

Martin left his team. The greatest sin you can commit on any NFL team is to let your team mates down. Doesn't matter what anyone says to the press, you can't abandon your team. The NFL and Dolphins cannot formally punish him, as this is now a situation that will involve the mental health lobby. And thanks to Incognito, the feminist lobby, the African American lobby and the gay lobby. However they will let the culture punish him, they have no choice. He was expected to close ranks, he didn't, for that he will suffer, fair or not.

I beg to differ. The greatest sin you can commit on any team is to allow someone to harm a teammate. The players and coaches on the Dolphins allowed that to happen to Martin. Every individual, whether on a team or not, has basic rights. The right to be treated with dignity in the workplace. The right to be able to be themselves.

This is nothing about "lobby"s. This is about basic, human decency. And just because someone hides in a locker room doesn't give them the right to bully anyone. Period.

 

[KCitons]

Still trying to figure out why I got so much grief over my number posts in this thread. 90% of the time I was responding to Chuck. Even now that the Wells report shows I was correct in my opinion, Chuck still soldiers on.

Where is Slapdash to complain about this thread? (Oh yeah, he's a dolphins fan too)

You should bring back the Incognito Kool Aid Man avatar.I didn't think Slapdash was a bad guy. It seemed more like he just hated the situation.

Or he just hates me. (Which is probably the case)

Chuck is going to try to find a way to put any blame on Martin. He's walking a fine line

He wants to stick to his guns and continue to push the wussification of america, but he's taken a quick look around and is realizing he stands alone.

 

[Neofight]

Still trying to figure out why I got so much grief over my number posts in this thread. 90% of the time I was responding to Chuck. Even now that the Wells report shows I was correct in my opinion, Chuck still soldiers on.

Where is Slapdash to complain about this thread? (Oh yeah, he's a dolphins fan too)

You should bring back the Incognito Kool Aid Man avatar.I didn't think Slapdash was a bad guy. It seemed more like he just hated the situation.

Or he just hates me. (Which is probably the case)Chuck is going to try to find a way to put any blame on Martin. He's walking a fine line

He wants to stick to his guns and continue to push the wussification of america, but he's taken a quick look around and is realizing he stands alone.

Untrue. He's got RBM in his corner.Not sure how that helps.

 

[KCitons]

Still trying to figure out why I got so much grief over my number posts in this thread. 90% of the time I was responding to Chuck. Even now that the Wells report shows I was correct in my opinion, Chuck still soldiers on.

Where is Slapdash to complain about this thread? (Oh yeah, he's a dolphins fan too)

You should bring back the Incognito Kool Aid Man avatar.I didn't think Slapdash was a bad guy. It seemed more like he just hated the situation.

Or he just hates me. (Which is probably the case)Chuck is going to try to find a way to put any blame on Martin. He's walking a fine line

He wants to stick to his guns and continue to push the wussification of america, but he's taken a quick look around and is realizing he stands alone.

Untrue. He's got RBM in his corner.Not sure how that helps.

Oh right, the Pouncey to his Incognito

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Just a heads up guys, a mod stopped by a few pages ago and warned people to not comment on other posters. Someone sensitive might report you, dealing you a timeout.

 

[Neofight]

Happy Valentines Day?

 

[KCitons]

Just a heads up guys, a mod stopped by a few pages ago and warned people to not comment on other posters. Someone sensitive might report you, dealing you a timeout.

Little late, I've been getting drug through the mud for weeks.

 

[Kalamazoo]

You know what also is a labor issue? Being able to work in a non-hostile environment, free of harassment. How convenient that you forgot that. Black, White, Green, Purple it doesn't matter. You have the right to be able to do your job without any undue stress caused by your coworkers. Applies to any workplace.

Ted Wells goes into exhaustive detail into all the resources available to Martin, which he didn't use, both with the franchise and with the NFL in general. He also goes into great length about the steps taken by the franchise and the NFL in general about workplace safety.

Even when asked directly, Martin said nothing to many people who could have helped him.

Did the Dolphins show a reasonable standard of care? Wells goes into great detail the steps the Dolphins made once Martin left and as they became aware.

The onus is on Jim Turner, the position coach, and since he owes his career to Mike Sherman and Joe Philbin, he will and did fall on his sword, and it ends there.

Martin just wouldn't talk, and while it might be consistent with a bullied person trying to fit in, he participated at times in tormenting other players.

I'm not saying what happened to Martin was right, but whether he has standing to sue and win is a whole different ballgame.

There is no lawsuit. Martin can try and the NFL will open up it's war chest and crush him. Martin will get every penny of his rookie contract. The NFL may give him a post career job in terms of outreach and player development for good will and PR purposes and the Dolphins will probably be willing to pay for whatever mental health/psychiatric needs Martin has for life, if need be, but that's it.

The bolded is the part that is not getting enough attention in my opinion. In everyone's wild race to rush to the side of the bullied, they failed to acknowledge that he also was a bully himself.

In addition to the stuff he participated in against Nate Garner, the things Martin said about Andrew McDonald were cruel and homophobic, and said behind his back to his teammates. At least the other D-Bags had the cajones to say things to his face and not behind his back like a jealous high school JV cheerleader.

I know...he was just trying to fit in.

A lot of guys that wore swastikas in Nazi Germany were just trying to fit in. That was not any type of acceptable excuse for the deplorable acts that they performed on fellow human beings.

Chuck, I fully agree with you about this in general (and partially agree when it comes to specifics). (FWIW, I understood what you were saying with the Nazi analogy, whether it fully applies here or not (and I think it does to an extent). I guess after 89 pages, Godwin's Law had to kick in eventually! )

I have a great deal of sympathy for Martin, but I do think he handled it very badly. I'm not sure I would have done any better, but it still wasn't good. I imagine he knows this, particularly since a large part of his distress seems to be been his full awareness of his inability to handle the situation. To the extent that he played along with excessively hurtful and cruel comments, he is fully to blame. Even if he couldn't stop Richie, et al., he should not have been joining them with the nasty stuff. I vaguely remember the part about him participating in mocking McDonald, but could you tell me specifically where that was so I can re-read it?

I don't necessarily agree that he was a hypocrite for participating in the other types of pranks (e.g. the lunch table, moving the guy's car, etc.). I didn't get the impression that that stuff was anything close to what was bothering him. My sense is that if that sort of thing was all that had been going on, he would have been fine. I don't think the fact that he lost it because of the lunchroom prank that day means much at all. It sounds like he was so unstable and his situation was so fraught that pretty much *anything* might have set him off. Furthermore, according to the report, just moments before, Richie called him a "stinky Pakistani" in front of everybody, which was certainly part of the overall pattern of harassment. If that hadn't happened, I think it is likely that something else minor would have triggered him not long thereafter.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I'm not comparing anyone to Nazis, but...

In his defense, I'm sure many adults also don't know the meaning of the word "comparing"

I am comparing the concept. Holy smokes! You guys are unbelievable! I DONT THINK JONATHAN MARTIN IS A NAZI OR ACTED LIKE ONE. Can we agree to disagree on this point and move on? Wow.

Aside from that part where you said Martin acted like the Nazis, you mean?

Show me where I said that Martin acted like a Nazi. Seriously - I dont see how you interpreted that from my statement in any sane way.

You guys can interpret what I said however you want, but you are mistaken. I compared the fact that some of Hitler's followers were likely trying to fit in, to the fact that Martin says he was just trying to fit in. Neither is an excuse for bad behavior. Thats it. Seems incredible that it needs to be explained not once, not twice, but three times. Blinders are apparently on once again.

The inability of all of you to comprehend this lends credence to the fact that you cannot comprehend the hypocrisy that is all over this thread, and this story. You want to focus on me....pile on me...dare I say, "bully" me? Why not focus on the fact that Jon Martin did to others what he is accusing others of doing to him? Why not acknowledge now that Jon Martin publicly accused his teammates of physical abuse from what was barely more than a pillow fight? If that is physical abuse to him, then is his interpretation of mental abuse relative to others also not in question?

Before one of you geniuses informs me that Martin never said that it was physical abuse...it was his agent who said it. Was his agent there? How would he have even known about the pillow fight if Jon didnt tell him?

Look - you guys all want to make me the villain because I see things a bit differently than you do. But the truth is, I also believe that he was mistreated by a bunch of knuckleheads that I am ashamed to see wearing my team's colors. However, I am also ashamed to see him in the colors as well. He does not escape culpability in my opinion. Beyond any discussion of his mental toughness, lies the fact that he was also guilty of deplorable behavior toward his teammates. I dont excuse that as easily as you guys do. Does that make me a villain?

(Paraphrasing)...Lock you in a closet with McDonald (a guy they all teased for being gay), a tranquilizer gun, and sandpaper condoms. So he is saying that he wants to lock Richie in a room with a guy he thinks is gay and allow him to incapacitate him with a tranquilizer gun and then rape him with sandpaper condoms. Is that acceptable either to Andrew McDonald, or to Richie? Richie arguably deserved it, although the 2 rights dont make a wrong crowd may see it differently. Did McDonald deserve that? Did he deserve to be called a Homosexual rapist behind his back by his teammate to his teammate? Thats perfectly OK with you guys? Just because he is The Jonathan Martin?

 

[Kalamazoo]

Chuck -- two other things...

1. A completely serious question for you: Do you think it would have been ok within the code of the locker room for Martin to have gone to Philbin with his concerns? Or would that have been snitching? Martin seems to have thought the latter. If so, he really was an awful situation.

2. If I remember correctly (and please correct and forgive me if I am confusing you with somebody else) you have said that there would have been no reason for him to have hired a lawyer if he didn't intend to sue. My response to that is that he would have been crazy *not* to have gotten a lawyer at that point, regardless of his ultimate intentions. Lots of people who can afford it hire lawyers when they get into sticky (and particularly public) situations. He needed somebody to serve as a spokesperson, to manage the spin, to protect his interests, etc. There was a lot of money potentially at stake and getting a high-profile lawyer was quite smart in my opinion. For example, if the Dolphins had tried to cut or suspend him, he'd certainly want somebody there to step in and put the brakes on that. And he needed somebody to counter whatever negative PR the Dolphins, Richie, etc. tried to send his way.

It's not clear that the guy Martin hired, David Cromwell, would have in any way been somebody he'd want litigating a workplace harassment suit, anyway. It looks like he specializes in sports and entertainment law. His online bio talks lots about negotiations and licensing and nothing about workplace issues and litigation: http://www.gordonrees.com/lawyers/w/wm-david-cornwell-sr

 

[Todem]

I thought Philbin seemed clueless during hard knocks and wasnt really respected. I think this proves that opinion to be true. He isn't a head coach.

Around the league, Joe Philbin is one of the most respected coaches in the NFL. Like Rex Ryan, despite calls for his head, if fired, he'd have a job in about 3 seconds and a pick of jobs.

During Hard Knocks, he was a rookie head coach and not that far removed from having one of his children die. And instead of coming in with a GM who was also new, he walked in with a lame duck GM who drafted Tannehill as a last ditch gasp to save his own job.

Philbin comes from offensive pedigree and what will reflect on him the most is his development of Ryan Tannehill, who has progressed nicely, though got hit far too often, in two years.

Given the typical head coaches responsibilities to the media, updating the owner, helping to market the team, prepare for the draft, it's not all the unusual for a guy in his position, upper management, to not have the entire pulse of every single day to day situation amongst his foot soldiers. How many police chiefs, even of small agencies, know every nuance of what goes on throughout every shift in that department? Department heads in hospitals? Company commanders in the military?

As for Martin suing, he left the team and didn't tell anyone about the alleged harassment. In doing so, he also violated the code of conduct he agreed to, just like the other players. I doubt there is a lawsuit, what will happen is Martin will receive every single penny of that rookie deal and the Dolphins will pay for as much medical/psychiatric treatment that he needs while on their roster and likely even off of it should no other team take him.

You know who has personality? Herm Edwards, who is actually a lousy coach. Just because Philbin is quiet and reserved doesn't make him a bad coach. What do you want him to do? Hold his hand in front of his face and channel his inner Pacino?

"That's what LIVING is, the SIX INCHES IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE!"

"His FATHER is the DISTRICT ATTORNEY!"

"DROPPIN' LOADS!"

Really, what does Joe Philbin have to to satisfy some of you? Sacrifice a fatted calf at the 50 yard line?

As for Jim Turner getting a "death sentence", not going to happen. Banning someone from the NFL for life, if it's not about gambling and it's not about being convicted for a violent crime where the length of incarceration exceeds the players likely useful career span, it's not going to happen. Disbarring someone from even the opportunity to work is a LABOR ISSUE. That coaches have no union. The last thing that Roger Goodell wants is Bob LaMonte ( who represents most coaches) to get coaches to try to unionize with Turner as simply a good excuse to start a labor fight. No one wants to fire the first shot that will have to get bled out during the next labor conflict, not over Jim Turner. He'll get suspended, whether anyone will want to hire him eventually is one thing, but whether he will be able to potentially coach again in theory is not a question for serious debate.

As I've said before, Bob Kraft not wanting to pay Aaron Hernandez some of what he is owed for actual accrued service time sounds good in public and sounds hard line for PR. But ultimately it's a short sighted decision that will become a labor problem. You can't not play a player for service time accrued, even if he killed someone. The union has to fight it, not for Hernandez, but in principle for all players. The only reason Kraft can go off the reservation to start is because he's on the NFL TV Committee that brokers the huge contracts.

When dealing with an issue that will bleed into a labor issue, the NFL picks and chooses it's battles. Turner did what he was supposed to do once things blew up. He fell on his sword and tried to protect the rest of his offensive staff. Do I agree with how he handled Incognito and Martin? No. But his acts towards the franchise were ones of loyalty. This is no different than Wee Bey Brice trying to claim as many murders as he could on The Wire for another pita sandwich and some horse radish. Yes, they only have slaw. Call Wee Bey a killer if you want, but also call him loyal. Turner could have tried to spill the blood everywhere, instead he jumped on his sword when it was clear the pin was already pulled on him. In the NFL tight knit coaching fraternity, that will not be forgotten. Gregg Williams was wrong, purely wrong, but he stood up for his players, he stood up for the coaches under his command. When faced with running the gauntlet no matter what, he tried to step in front of the fire for Payton and Loomis. He paid his time and fines and now he's back in the NFL. Turner might have to go back to college ranks, but that might be because of his experience level. If you think Turner will be banned for life as an NFL coach, think again.

What will ultimately happen here? What any big business does to try to prevent future liability, you will see a whole crap ton of bureaucracy. There will be so many future documents to sign, waivers, cameras installed, checks and balances that heads will spin. People will be too tired from signing waivers and taking diversity and love your team mate seminars to bully each other.

Martin left his team. The greatest sin you can commit on any NFL team is to let your team mates down. Doesn't matter what anyone says to the press, you can't abandon your team. The NFL and Dolphins cannot formally punish him, as this is now a situation that will involve the mental health lobby. And thanks to Incognito, the feminist lobby, the African American lobby and the gay lobby. However they will let the culture punish him, they have no choice. He was expected to close ranks, he didn't, for that he will suffer, fair or not.

Incognito was toast as soon as he used the N word, no matter what else he did or did not do. His further mind bogging hits on gays, women and just about every other powerful For Profit Martyr lobby in America was just icing on his cake. There was no way he was going to walk unscathed. Again, he might eat a long suspension, but not a banning for life. Likely no one will sign him anyway. There are people you can pick on openly in American society and those you cannot, Incognito was too dumb to know which was which ( notice the lack of outrage of the racism against the Asian assistant trainer? It's because if you are racist to an Asian, society will often let it go, but to a black? Yeah, not so much)

The biggest thing I take away from this is how can anyone look at this and honestly say that the Michael Sam situation won't blow up in some team's face. No one expected any of this mess in Miami, and then it spun out of control. All it will take is one person saying one wrong thing around Sam and it's over. Look at how some of you reacted in any fashion the way the media demanded you to react. Which goes back to what I said before, deep down, we will never know the entire truth about what happened in Miami, but in the end, the truth doesn't matter, most of you didn't wait for any truth, you just went for the blood or the headlines. All that matters is perception kills and kills quickly.

Any of you guys want Michael Sam and that ticking PR time bomb around his neck on your team, whether he intends for it or not, then i say go ahead. Pull the pin if you want, your franchise will pay for it accordingly.

How about being able to prepare his team in weeks 17 and 18 to win the last two games of the season to propel his team into the post season.

His team looked uninspired, ill prepared and they flat out quit on him and the entire staff…….quit.

He is a lousy…I mean lousy HC. Say whatever you want about all his accolades as an assistant.

He is not a high quality HC. He is probably a great guy, has a wonderful offensive mind….etc etc etc.

He is not a leader of men……he is an assistant to a leader of men.

Period.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

You know what also is a labor issue? Being able to work in a non-hostile environment, free of harassment. How convenient that you forgot that. Black, White, Green, Purple it doesn't matter. You have the right to be able to do your job without any undue stress caused by your coworkers. Applies to any workplace.

Ted Wells goes into exhaustive detail into all the resources available to Martin, which he didn't use, both with the franchise and with the NFL in general. He also goes into great length about the steps taken by the franchise and the NFL in general about workplace safety.

Even when asked directly, Martin said nothing to many people who could have helped him.

Did the Dolphins show a reasonable standard of care? Wells goes into great detail the steps the Dolphins made once Martin left and as they became aware.

The onus is on Jim Turner, the position coach, and since he owes his career to Mike Sherman and Joe Philbin, he will and did fall on his sword, and it ends there.

Martin just wouldn't talk, and while it might be consistent with a bullied person trying to fit in, he participated at times in tormenting other players.

I'm not saying what happened to Martin was right, but whether he has standing to sue and win is a whole different ballgame.

There is no lawsuit. Martin can try and the NFL will open up it's war chest and crush him. Martin will get every penny of his rookie contract. The NFL may give him a post career job in terms of outreach and player development for good will and PR purposes and the Dolphins will probably be willing to pay for whatever mental health/psychiatric needs Martin has for life, if need be, but that's it.

The bolded is the part that is not getting enough attention in my opinion. In everyone's wild race to rush to the side of the bullied, they failed to acknowledge that he also was a bully himself.

In addition to the stuff he participated in against Nate Garner, the things Martin said about Andrew McDonald were cruel and homophobic, and said behind his back to his teammates. At least the other D-Bags had the cajones to say things to his face and not behind his back like a jealous high school JV cheerleader.

I know...he was just trying to fit in.

A lot of guys that wore swastikas in Nazi Germany were just trying to fit in. That was not any type of acceptable excuse for the deplorable acts that they performed on fellow human beings.

Chuck, I fully agree with you about this in general (and partially agree when it comes to specifics). (FWIW, I understood what you were saying with the Nazi analogy, whether it fully applies here or not (and I think it does to an extent). I guess after 89 pages, Godwin's Law had to kick in eventually! )

I have a great deal of sympathy for Martin, but I do think he handled it very badly. I'm not sure I would have done any better, but it still wasn't good. I imagine he knows this, particularly since a large part of his distress seems to be been his full awareness of his inability to handle the situation. To the extent that he played along with excessively hurtful and cruel comments, he is fully to blame. Even if he couldn't stop Richie, et al., he should not have been joining them with the nasty stuff. I vaguely remember the part about him participating in mocking McDonald, but could you tell me specifically where that was so I can re-read it?

I don't necessarily agree that he was a hypocrite for participating in the other types of pranks (e.g. the lunch table, moving the guy's car, etc.). I didn't get the impression that that stuff was anything close to what was bothering him. My sense is that if that sort of thing was all that had been going on, he would have been fine. I don't think the fact that he lost it because of the lunchroom prank that day means much at all. It sounds like he was so unstable and his situation was so fraught that pretty much *anything* might have set him off. Furthermore, according to the report, just moments before, Richie called him a "stinky Pakistani" in front of everybody, which was certainly part of the overall pattern of harassment. If that hadn't happened, I think it is likely that something else minor would have triggered him not long thereafter.

Thank you for posting this. Good to see that there is still some semblance of sanity left in this thread. I do not disagree with your assessment of the pranks and lunchroom deal. I agree that this was just the final straw.

Here is the text I was referring to regarding Andrew McDonald, who is the same guy that Turner bought the male blow-up doll for, and apparently had his sexuality questioned regularly by the idiots that ran the Dolphins locker room:

Martin shot back: "Im gonna give McDonald bath salts & lock him in your house with a tranquilizer gun & a box of sand paper condoms."

 

[Todd Andrews]

Wait, why did Martin put the Jews in the ovens?

 

[squistion]

(Paraphrasing)...Lock you in a closet with McDonald (a guy they all teased for being gay), a tranquilizer gun, and sandpaper condoms. So he is saying that he wants to lock Richie in a room with a guy he thinks is gay and allow him to incapacitate him with a tranquilizer gun and then rape him with sandpaper condoms. Is that acceptable either to Andrew McDonald, or to Richie? Richie arguably deserved it, although the 2 rights dont make a wrong crowd may see it differently. Did McDonald deserve that? Did he deserve to be called a Homosexual rapist behind his back by his teammate to his teammate? Thats perfectly OK with you guys? Just because he is The Jonathan Martin?

This sounds like a great poll question for a separate thread.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Show me where I said that Martin acted like a Nazi. Seriously - I dont see how you interpreted that from my statement in any sane way.

You guys can interpret what I said however you want, but you are mistaken. I compared the fact that some of Hitler's followers were likely trying to fit in, to the fact that Martin says he was just trying to fit in. Neither is an excuse for bad behavior. Thats it. Seems incredible that it needs to be explained not once, not twice, but three times. Blinders are apparently on once again.

Veering waaaay off topic here, I'll say that Chuck's analogy is a good. Martin seems to be very much the go-along-to-get-along type (aka, quite susceptible to peer pressure...). There are lots and lots of people like that out there and even the most individualistic of us are susceptible to peer pressure to one extent or another. There's nothing wrong with that type of personality. In fact, it's necessary to have folks like that for human society to function. It dangerous, however, when too many people succumb to peer pressure and get sucked in by a toxic movement or leader. On one side, you get Nazi Germany and other totalitarian societies out of it and on another you get junior high school bullying.

*** I've gone way off topic and am not comparing Martin to a Nazi, other totalitarian, or bully, just that I agree that "trying to fit in" is not any kind of excuse for bad behavior. ***

Look - you guys all want to make me the villain because I see things a bit differently than you do. But the truth is, I also believe that he was mistreated by a bunch of knuckleheads that I am ashamed to see wearing my team's colors. However, I am also ashamed to see him in the colors as well. He does not escape culpability in my opinion. Beyond any discussion of his mental toughness, lies the fact that he was also guilty of deplorable behavior toward his teammates. I dont excuse that as easily as you guys do. Does that make me a villain?

(Paraphrasing)...Lock you in a closet with McDonald (a guy they all teased for being gay), a tranquilizer gun, and sandpaper condoms. So he is saying that he wants to lock Richie in a room with a guy he thinks is gay and allow him to incapacitate him with a tranquilizer gun and then rape him with sandpaper condoms. Is that acceptable either to Andrew McDonald, or to Richie? Richie arguably deserved it, although the 2 rights dont make a wrong crowd may see it differently. Did McDonald deserve that? Did he deserve to be called a Homosexual rapist behind his back by his teammate to his teammate? Thats perfectly OK with you guys? Just because he is The Jonathan Martin?

I have a ton of empathy and sympathy for Martin and the lousy situation he was dumped in, but I agree that that stuff is not OK in any way, even if he did it to appease Richie. He had to make some kind of stand, even if it was a passive one in that he simply didn't play along.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Chuck -- two other things...

1. A completely serious question for you: Do you think it would have been ok within the code of the locker room for Martin to have gone to Philbin with his concerns? Or would that have been snitching? Martin seems to have thought the latter. If so, he really was an awful situation.

2. If I remember correctly (and please correct and forgive me if I am confusing you with somebody else) you have said that there would have been no reason for him to have hired a lawyer if he didn't intend to sue. My response to that is that he would have been crazy *not* to have gotten a lawyer at that point, regardless of his ultimate intentions. Lots of people who can afford it hire lawyers when they get into sticky (and particularly public) situations. He needed somebody to serve as a spokesperson, to manage the spin, to protect his interests, etc. There was a lot of money potentially at stake and getting a high-profile lawyer was quite smart in my opinion. For example, if the Dolphins had tried to cut or suspend him, he'd certainly want somebody there to step in and put the brakes on that. And he needed somebody to counter whatever negative PR the Dolphins, Richie, etc. tried to send his way.

It's not clear that the guy Martin hired, David Cromwell, would have in any way been somebody he'd want litigating a workplace harassment suit, anyway. It looks like he specializes in sports and entertainment law. His online bio talks lots about negotiations and licensing and nothing about workplace issues and litigation: http://www.gordonrees.com/lawyers/w/wm-david-cornwell-sr

So happy to engage in a real, intelligent dialog about this issue. That has been tough to come by in here.

1. I do think it would have been the right move to speak with Philbin or Turner before simply walking out on the team. A private discussion where he requested that it remain between the two of them would have been the adult way to address his concerns - which were absolutely legitimate in my opinion after seeing with more transparency into the situation. While I dont think that the abuse that Martin endured would have effected most NFL players in the way it effected him, that seems a bit irrelevant at this point. It did effect him that way, and he should have voiced that to someone who could help if he was unable to help himself.

2. You do remember correctly - absolutely. Still not sure I have swayed on that to tell the truth, but you bring up good points in an intelligent way. To sue, to protect his financial interests...not exactly the same, but kind of the spirit of what I was saying. The fact that his lawyer released those voicemails, and a statement regarding physical abuse (where there apparently was none) doesnt necessarily confirm this, but does support the theory. Guys can walk away from the game, and they do it all the time without hiring a lawyer. If he was doing it to protect his financial interests, that is in my opinion the same (or similar enough) to an intention to sue in the context that I was using it.

That said, I think Jon was not BSing his feelings. At one point, I did think that he was, and that he was simply looking for a payday. I dont think that anymore. I think he really was in his mind being bullied, as he was in middle school. I just think that what he interpreted as bullying would not be interpreted as bullying by most NFL players, and many 25 year old dudes who like to verbally abuse eachother for entertainment. My friends and I do that stuff to eachother all the time, and there are definitely some at the bottom of the totem pole who get it a little worse because they are easier targets. Thats being a guy for many people (not all - clearly).

My buddy married my sister, and named his fantasy football team the "Sister Phisters". That would probably not fly with Jon. To me (and my sister, and the rest of the league), it was hilarious. I knew it was a joke, not intended to cause real harm. Had I asked him to change the name, he would have apologized profusely, and changed it immediately. Had Jon told those idiots to stop, maybe they would have. Maybe not. He didnt, so we will never know. That does not excuse their behavior. They crossed the line on several occasions. I'm just saying that for some people it would not have been as big of a deal, and without him communicating that it was, its tough for me to feel that he was so innocent here. The stuff with Andrew McDonald makes it even tougher. Saying stuff like that makes it appear as though you are playing along in the foolishness, which opens the door for you to get it back. Dish it out..take it.

 

[proninja]

nevermind - it isn't worth it

 

[Kalamazoo]

Thank you for posting this. Good to see that there is still some semblance of sanity left in this thread. I do not disagree with your assessment of the pranks and lunchroom deal. I agree that this was just the final straw.


Here is the text I was referring to regarding Andrew McDonald, who is the same guy that Turner bought the male blow-up doll for, and apparently had his sexuality questioned regularly by the idiots that ran the Dolphins locker room:

Martin shot back: "Im gonna give McDonald bath salts & lock him in your house with a tranquilizer gun & a box of sand paper condoms."

Thanks Chuck; I remember that now. That's not cool. At that point he's gone from turning the other check in a sense to edging towards the dark side. (And I say that from a place of love. )

Regardless, I think it's been clear from the outset that nobody was going to come out of this looking pure. It's a huge shame; had Martin gone to another team, or even played a different position on the Dolphins, or had there been a few real leaders around, it is quite possible none of this would have happened. I hope he lands somewhere more stable is able to create a good career for himself.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

It's clear from the report that Incognito acted insensitively to other people's feelings. He's much like the Nazis in that regard. It's also clear that Martin failed to communicate to those closest to him just what he was going through -- something he's got in common with quite a few Nazis, I'm sure. Finally, I'd say that Ted Wells did a very thorough job with the report and, not unlike Hitler, was very detail-oriented.

(I'm kidding. I know what Mr. Liddell was going for with the Nazi reference: that trying to fit in doesn't excuse bad behavior. I do think it's weird, however, to point out that a lot of Nazis were trying to fit in. It's like pointing out that a lot of Nazis liked beer, or that they enjoyed playing soccer. When you mention that your neighbor likes playing soccer, you don't add "just like the Nazis" onto the end of it. That would be weird, because an awful lot of non-Nazis also enjoy playing soccer. An awful lot of non-Nazis also try to fit in with their peers. It really has nothing to do with Nazism, so the reference seemed out of place. JMHO.)

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Thank you for posting this. Good to see that there is still some semblance of sanity left in this thread. I do not disagree with your assessment of the pranks and lunchroom deal. I agree that this was just the final straw.


Here is the text I was referring to regarding Andrew McDonald, who is the same guy that Turner bought the male blow-up doll for, and apparently had his sexuality questioned regularly by the idiots that ran the Dolphins locker room:

Martin shot back: "Im gonna give McDonald bath salts & lock him in your house with a tranquilizer gun & a box of sand paper condoms."

Thanks Chuck; I remember that now. That's not cool. At that point he's gone from turning the other check in a sense to edging towards the dark side. (And I say that from a place of love. )

Regardless, I think it's been clear from the outset that nobody was going to come out of this looking pure. It's a huge shame; had Martin gone to another team, or even played a different position on the Dolphins, or had there been a few real leaders around, it is quite possible none of this would have happened. I hope he lands somewhere more stable is able to create a good career for himself.

One of my favorite posters, KC has been saying that all along. I finally agree with him, and with you. Miami was definitely the wrong place for Martin, and I bet there are right places in the NFL for him. I hope he gets to go to one of them (and I hope it returns at least a 5th round pick to my crappy team). I also would be fine with him staying in the AFC East...for the sake of Cam Wake's sack stats ;-)

 

[ChuckLiddell]

It's clear from the report that Incognito acted insensitively to other people's feelings. He's much like the Nazis in that regard. It's also clear that Martin failed to communicate to those closest to him just what he was going through -- something he's got in common with quite a few Nazis, I'm sure. Finally, I'd say that Ted Wells did a very thorough job with the report and, not unlike Hitler, was very detail-oriented.

(I'm kidding. I know what Mr. Liddell was going for with the Nazi reference: that trying to fit in doesn't excuse bad behavior. I do think it's weird, however, to point out that a lot of Nazis were trying to fit in. It's like pointing out that a lot of Nazis liked beer, or that they enjoyed playing soccer. When you mention that your neighbor likes playing soccer, you don't add "just like the Nazis" onto the end of it. That would be weird, because an awful lot of non-Nazis also enjoy playing soccer. An awful lot of non-Nazis also try to fit in with their peers. It really has nothing to do with Nazism, so the reference seemed out of place. JMHO.)

Oy Vey!

So it wasnt the best analogy for everyone...I get it. Maybe we should start a separate thread about it and get it out of this one? You'd think I had invaded Poland!

 

[KCitons]

Just want to point out that Martin probably felt this way from day one

As a rookie, what was he suppose to do? Complain to management? No. He tried to fit in, the best be could. When it became obvious that things weren't going to get better the second year, he skipped OTA's. This made things worse in the eyes of the team.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

So Martin isn't a Nazi?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

So Martin isn't a Nazi?

No, he is. He likes soccer, right? And beer?

 

[Bob Magaw]

Not piling on Chuck.

Going along has better results when the leader is MLK instead of Hitler.

Which is why allowing Incognito on the leadership council was a predictably horrific oversight.

Some sinister examples of "going along" and peer pressure.

Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem

The Milgram Experiment on Obedience to Authority Figures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

The Stanford Prison Experiment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

 

[Kalamazoo]

So happy to engage in a real, intelligent dialog about this issue. That has been tough to come by in here.


1. I do think it would have been the right move to speak with Philbin or Turner before simply walking out on the team. A private discussion where he requested that it remain between the two of them would have been the adult way to address his concerns - which were absolutely legitimate in my opinion after seeing with more transparency into the situation. While I dont think that the abuse that Martin endured would have effected most NFL players in the way it effected him, that seems a bit irrelevant at this point. It did effect him that way, and he should have voiced that to someone who could help if he was unable to help himself.

This is really fun and interesting to talk to you about, too, Chuck, even if (or especially since?) we don't agree on everything.

Hmmm... I've been trying to think about how it might have felt to have been in his shoes and what he might realistically have been able to have done about it (I am, of course, not in the least bit qualified to do so, but that's never stopped me from telling stories to myself before). He explicitly said in his interview that he believed it would have been considered "snitching" had he gone to the coaches. It is very telling that he was willing to open up enough to tell them that he was feeling suicidal, but would not even go so far as to tell the team-affiliated psychiatrist about what was happening. For somebody who so many people are accusing of having broken the "code of the locker room", he also really damaged his health by bending over backwards not to "snitch". There is something very, very dysfunctional there...

I guess maybe the thing to have done would have, as you suggest, been to have gone to Philbin in confidence and told him what was going on. In a functional organization, Philbin would have maybe told Turner (and if available, some actual team leaders) that Richie and Co. needed to be reigned in. Then that would have happened in a subtle way (i.e., not "hey, Big Weirdo has been telling Coach that you guys are being mean to him") and things would have gotten better...?

Unfortunately, I wonder if that would have worked in this organization, given that Turner seemed to enjoy playing along and that Richie specifically said that he didn't care what behavioral guidelines were issued by the coach...

If Martin had gone to Philbin and had that conversation, and nothing had changed, do you think you would have felt differently about the situation from the beginning?

2. You do remember correctly - absolutely. Still not sure I have swayed on that to tell the truth, but you bring up good points in an intelligent way. To sue, to protect his financial interests...not exactly the same, but kind of the spirit of what I was saying. The fact that his lawyer released those voicemails, and a statement regarding physical abuse (where there apparently was none) doesnt necessarily confirm this, but does support the theory. Guys can walk away from the game, and they do it all the time without hiring a lawyer. If he was doing it to protect his financial interests, that is in my opinion the same (or similar enough) to an intention to sue in the context that I was using it.

Maybe we are talking about two different things...? By suing I was thinking more in terms of filing a $30 million (or whatever) suit claiming workplace harassment, etc. I think that is very different from making sure that the Dolphins didn't try to dock his salary, particularly if he wasn't intending to walk away from the game. (And thus far it sounds like he still wants to play.)

I guess I see (a) making sure he kept his salary and position in the league, and(b) filing a multi-million dollar harassment suit as two completely different things. I think he was completely justified in doing the former. However, I'm not sure it would be reasonable or appropriate to do the latter as long as the Dolphins do right by him (e.g., honoring his contact if he's willing to show up and play, etc.).

I'd say releasing the voicemails, etc. would be a reasonable part of the spin process and protecting his salary (they couldn't very well cut or suspend him with that stuff out there), rather than necessarily setting the table for a large lawsuit. (Of course both could be true as well.) In terms of the physical abuse, the report decided it didn't amount to much, but it is entirely possible that Martin was sincere in feeling that it was a big deal.

I wonder how much of the lawsuit speculation was fueled by the fact that his mother is an employment lawyer? Would the response have been different if she had been a prostitute instead? (And which profession would Jeff Ireland have found more off-putting? )

That said, I think Jon was not BSing his feelings. At one point, I did think that he was, and that he was simply looking for a payday. I dont think that anymore. I think he really was in his mind being bullied, as he was in middle school. I just think that what he interpreted as bullying would not be interpreted as bullying by most NFL players, and many 25 year old dudes who like to verbally abuse eachother for entertainment. My friends and I do that stuff to eachother all the time, and there are definitely some at the bottom of the totem pole who get it a little worse because they are easier targets. Thats being a guy for many people (not all - clearly).

My buddy married my sister, and named his fantasy football team the "Sister Phisters". That would probably not fly with Jon. To me (and my sister, and the rest of the league), it was hilarious. I knew it was a joke, not intended to cause real harm. Had I asked him to change the name, he would have apologized profusely, and changed it immediately. Had Jon told those idiots to stop, maybe they would have. Maybe not. He didnt, so we will never know. That does not excuse their behavior. They crossed the line on several occasions. I'm just saying that for some people it would not have been as big of a deal, and without him communicating that it was, its tough for me to feel that he was so innocent here. The stuff with Andrew McDonald makes it even tougher. Saying stuff like that makes it appear as though you are playing along in the foolishness, which opens the door for you to get it back. Dish it out..take it.

I agree that Martin was genuinely affected by the situation and it was a pretty unfortunate situation he ended up in. (I doubt he is unique among NFL players in his history and sensitivities... But most others probably either end up in more functional situations or wash out in less spectacular ways. His upper-middle class, private school background clearly wasn't a great training ground for certainly NFL life skills either.) I can completely relate to what he told his parents about his depression and how it was affecting his life. I've been there myself and it was at least partly caused by work-related misery (that did not involve interpersonal issues, thank godness) and it sucks. You do feel trapped. And it's a terrible negative feedback cycle.

I couldn't possibly get inside Martin's head, but somehow "Sister Phisters" doesn't sound quite as bad as some of the stuff that Richie and Co. came up with. Who knows. I do wonder if they would have stopped. Had Martin come on very strongly, they might well have. As it was, I sounds like they sensed weakness, and went for it again and again. To bring families into it again, my family has a lot of button-pushers; we like to tease people to get a reaction. And it truly does come from a place of love. We only do it because we like them. It's easy to get a rise out of some people and those buttons get pushed again and again and it's fun to find new buttons to push (while this is a great source of recreation for many of my blood relative, it horrifies most of the in-laws). None of it is ever intended to be mean, and we certainly wouldn't do this for anything sensitive, however.

I'd venture to say that what Richie and Co. were doing was somehow similar, but in a pretty nasty, crude, and cruel way, and it was fun and they were going to keep doing it until forced to stop.

 

[fatness]

Martin left his team. The greatest sin you can commit on any NFL team is to let your team mates down. Doesn't matter what anyone says to the press, you can't abandon your team.

I think you have "NFL team" confused with "street gang".

 

[Smack Tripper]

Incognito and Pouncey are possibly latent homosexuals...usually seems to go that way with guys too concerned with gay things... who else has this preoccupation or is so interested in touching other men, even as a "prank". And that probably explains a lot of their conduct and compensating (Line meetings in a strip club ok we get it).

That said, and regardless of the dopey Nazi hijack, I don't see how its NOT relevant that Martin participated in bullying under any context. I don't care that he was trying to fit in, he's responsible and accountable for his conduct and crap runs downhill. Maybe the "Martin Report" should be the "Player A report".

Say whatever you will of a Martin, he's a candy ### and if those texts to his family are accurate, he has been one his whole life. You can be assured that this character trait would have been exploited in any workplace because there are alphas and betas in this life. I scarcely know what to say about him, I don't even mean to be mean, I just find it almost inconceivable that he reached this level with that kind of mentality.

And to Gordon Gekko, there is no chance in the world of Philbin getting a head coaching job in the next five years, never mind being out of work for three minutes. He was a cog in a system that hasn't missed him, and nor has he been able to replicate. I'm torn on him, they actually did respond in the wake of this but did absolutely lay down like dogs against teams with nothing to play for down the stretch. There are plenty of good coaches looking for work and he has done nothing to distinguish himself

 

[Kalamazoo]

One of my favorite posters, KC has been saying that all along. I finally agree with him, and with you. Miami was definitely the wrong place for Martin, and I bet there are right places in the NFL for him. I hope he gets to go to one of them (and I hope it returns at least a 5th round pick to my crappy team). I also would be fine with him staying in the AFC East...for the sake of Cam Wake's sack stats ;-)

I think a team with the right culture and management who had an OL need would be nuts for not giving him at least a chance. He'd come cheaply and is only two years removed from being a second-round level prospect. It would be amazing if his situation hadn't had a significant negative impact on his play. Heck, even being that depressed alone, forgetting about the rest of the mess, would have made it extremely difficult for him to have played up to his abilities. If he'd had a known debilitating chronic back injury, for example, might teams have been willing to give him another chance knowing what he had done in college and that it had finally healed? In a way, this isn't much different, assuming he's got his head on straight now, or will have by the time the season starts. (And based on what he said in the report and personal experience, it seems quite possible that he will be OK with proper treatment and in the right environment.)

As for Richie...that guy defies any kind of understanding I can apply...he appears to be one-of-a-kind...

 

[Bob Magaw]

Would Ireland's dunderheaded remark to Martin's agent that he should have fought back, as an employee and representative of the team, give Martin stronger grounds for a suit?

In an incident that has many sub-chapters, it is easy for some to get lost in the shuffle. But it is common to hear some say he didn't tell anyone, and that isn't quite true, if the reports are accurate.

I'm not sure that is Martin's end game, so could be a moot point.

If it was, I'm not convinced the NFL wouldn't just want to settle (though that might be a bad precedent, unless it came with an NDA)?

 

[Kalamazoo]

Just want to point out that Martin probably felt this way from day one

As a rookie, what was he suppose to do? Complain to management? No. He tried to fit in, the best be could. When it became obvious that things weren't going to get better the second year, he skipped OTA's. This made things worse in the eyes of the team.

Exactly... And as we discussed a while ago, this is a huge problem with the draft. If you were interviewing with several possible employers and had the ability to research the folks you'd have to work closely with in your new group, and learned that one was like Richie Incognito, might that not make you look more closely at another job? I have no idea if it would really work that way in a non-draft NFL, but it would be very interesting to find out.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I wouldn't give anyone involved in this mess a job in the NFL again. Mainly because their talent doesn't justify the aggravation and headache they have caused.

 

[RBM]

I'm not comparing anyone to Nazis, but...

In his defense, I'm sure many adults also don't know the meaning of the word "comparing"

I am comparing the concept. Holy smokes! You guys are unbelievable! I DONT THINK JONATHAN MARTIN IS A NAZI OR ACTED LIKE ONE. Can we agree to disagree on this point and move on? Wow.

Aside from that part where you said Martin acted like the Nazis, you mean?

Show me where I said that Martin acted like a Nazi. Seriously - I dont see how you interpreted that from my statement in any sane way.You guys can interpret what I said however you want, but you are mistaken. I compared the fact that some of Hitler's followers were likely trying to fit in, to the fact that Martin says he was just trying to fit in. Neither is an excuse for bad behavior. Thats it. Seems incredible that it needs to be explained not once, not twice, but three times. Blinders are apparently on once again.

The inability of all of you to comprehend this lends credence to the fact that you cannot comprehend the hypocrisy that is all over this thread, and this story. You want to focus on me....pile on me...dare I say, "bully" me? Why not focus on the fact that Jon Martin did to others what he is accusing others of doing to him? Why not acknowledge now that Jon Martin publicly accused his teammates of physical abuse from what was barely more than a pillow fight? If that is physical abuse to him, then is his interpretation of mental abuse relative to others also not in question?

Before one of you geniuses informs me that Martin never said that it was physical abuse...it was his agent who said it. Was his agent there? How would he have even known about the pillow fight if Jon didnt tell him?

Look - you guys all want to make me the villain because I see things a bit differently than you do. But the truth is, I also believe that he was mistreated by a bunch of knuckleheads that I am ashamed to see wearing my team's colors. However, I am also ashamed to see him in the colors as well. He does not escape culpability in my opinion. Beyond any discussion of his mental toughness, lies the fact that he was also guilty of deplorable behavior toward his teammates. I dont excuse that as easily as you guys do. Does that make me a villain?

(Paraphrasing)...Lock you in a closet with McDonald (a guy they all teased for being gay), a tranquilizer gun, and sandpaper condoms. So he is saying that he wants to lock Richie in a room with a guy he thinks is gay and allow him to incapacitate him with a tranquilizer gun and then rape him with sandpaper condoms. Is that acceptable either to Andrew McDonald, or to Richie? Richie arguably deserved it, although the 2 rights dont make a wrong crowd may see it differently. Did McDonald deserve that? Did he deserve to be called a Homosexual rapist behind his back by his teammate to his teammate? Thats perfectly OK with you guys? Just because he is The Jonathan Martin?

Very Hypocrisy running wild up in here...off the charts.

 

[ghostguy123]

Every player involved is in the wrong.

But it was also a perfect storm of personalities creating this mess. Like wearing sandles with socks, khaki shorts with spandex under them, a wifebeater on the outside of a sweater, and a cowboy hat underneath a baseball cap, with gold chains wrapped around your waist being help up by nose piercings that are clip-ons. Sh-it just don't fit together well.

Martin could have been just fine for years on most other teams (probably every other team). Now?? Not so sure, but still most teams probably.

Incognito has been around, and this kind of mess never happened. He is clearly an idiot and should probably be banned from the league, but if he was on 31 other teams we probably don't see this mess.

At some point they will make a movie about it.

 

[fatness]

As hard as it is to envision Martin returning to the Dolphins’ locker room, it’s even harder to imagine Turner showing up for work there again. And while plenty of players apparently don’t want Martin back, they’ll likely react negatively, and strongly, if/when Turner is fired.That’s because the concept of doing the right thing has gotten skewed and twisted in the Miami Dolphins locker room.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/16/jim-turner-likely-wont-be-with-the-dolphins-much-longer/

 

[ChuckLiddell]

So happy to engage in a real, intelligent dialog about this issue. That has been tough to come by in here.


1. I do think it would have been the right move to speak with Philbin or Turner before simply walking out on the team. A private discussion where he requested that it remain between the two of them would have been the adult way to address his concerns - which were absolutely legitimate in my opinion after seeing with more transparency into the situation. While I dont think that the abuse that Martin endured would have effected most NFL players in the way it effected him, that seems a bit irrelevant at this point. It did effect him that way, and he should have voiced that to someone who could help if he was unable to help himself.

This is really fun and interesting to talk to you about, too, Chuck, even if (or especially since?) we don't agree on everything.

Hmmm... I've been trying to think about how it might have felt to have been in his shoes and what he might realistically have been able to have done about it (I am, of course, not in the least bit qualified to do so, but that's never stopped me from telling stories to myself before). He explicitly said in his interview that he believed it would have been considered "snitching" had he gone to the coaches. It is very telling that he was willing to open up enough to tell them that he was feeling suicidal, but would not even go so far as to tell the team-affiliated psychiatrist about what was happening. For somebody who so many people are accusing of having broken the "code of the locker room", he also really damaged his health by bending over backwards not to "snitch". There is something very, very dysfunctional there...

I guess maybe the thing to have done would have, as you suggest, been to have gone to Philbin in confidence and told him what was going on. In a functional organization, Philbin would have maybe told Turner (and if available, some actual team leaders) that Richie and Co. needed to be reigned in. Then that would have happened in a subtle way (i.e., not "hey, Big Weirdo has been telling Coach that you guys are being mean to him") and things would have gotten better...?

Unfortunately, I wonder if that would have worked in this organization, given that Turner seemed to enjoy playing along and that Richie specifically said that he didn't care what behavioral guidelines were issued by the coach...

If Martin had gone to Philbin and had that conversation, and nothing had changed, do you think you would have felt differently about the situation from the beginning?

2. You do remember correctly - absolutely. Still not sure I have swayed on that to tell the truth, but you bring up good points in an intelligent way. To sue, to protect his financial interests...not exactly the same, but kind of the spirit of what I was saying. The fact that his lawyer released those voicemails, and a statement regarding physical abuse (where there apparently was none) doesnt necessarily confirm this, but does support the theory. Guys can walk away from the game, and they do it all the time without hiring a lawyer. If he was doing it to protect his financial interests, that is in my opinion the same (or similar enough) to an intention to sue in the context that I was using it.

Maybe we are talking about two different things...? By suing I was thinking more in terms of filing a $30 million (or whatever) suit claiming workplace harassment, etc. I think that is very different from making sure that the Dolphins didn't try to dock his salary, particularly if he wasn't intending to walk away from the game. (And thus far it sounds like he still wants to play.)

I guess I see (a) making sure he kept his salary and position in the league, and(b) filing a multi-million dollar harassment suit as two completely different things. I think he was completely justified in doing the former. However, I'm not sure it would be reasonable or appropriate to do the latter as long as the Dolphins do right by him (e.g., honoring his contact if he's willing to show up and play, etc.).

I'd say releasing the voicemails, etc. would be a reasonable part of the spin process and protecting his salary (they couldn't very well cut or suspend him with that stuff out there), rather than necessarily setting the table for a large lawsuit. (Of course both could be true as well.) In terms of the physical abuse, the report decided it didn't amount to much, but it is entirely possible that Martin was sincere in feeling that it was a big deal.

I wonder how much of the lawsuit speculation was fueled by the fact that his mother is an employment lawyer? Would the response have been different if she had been a prostitute instead? (And which profession would Jeff Ireland have found more off-putting? )

That said, I think Jon was not BSing his feelings. At one point, I did think that he was, and that he was simply looking for a payday. I dont think that anymore. I think he really was in his mind being bullied, as he was in middle school. I just think that what he interpreted as bullying would not be interpreted as bullying by most NFL players, and many 25 year old dudes who like to verbally abuse eachother for entertainment. My friends and I do that stuff to eachother all the time, and there are definitely some at the bottom of the totem pole who get it a little worse because they are easier targets. Thats being a guy for many people (not all - clearly).

My buddy married my sister, and named his fantasy football team the "Sister Phisters". That would probably not fly with Jon. To me (and my sister, and the rest of the league), it was hilarious. I knew it was a joke, not intended to cause real harm. Had I asked him to change the name, he would have apologized profusely, and changed it immediately. Had Jon told those idiots to stop, maybe they would have. Maybe not. He didnt, so we will never know. That does not excuse their behavior. They crossed the line on several occasions. I'm just saying that for some people it would not have been as big of a deal, and without him communicating that it was, its tough for me to feel that he was so innocent here. The stuff with Andrew McDonald makes it even tougher. Saying stuff like that makes it appear as though you are playing along in the foolishness, which opens the door for you to get it back. Dish it out..take it.

I agree that Martin was genuinely affected by the situation and it was a pretty unfortunate situation he ended up in. (I doubt he is unique among NFL players in his history and sensitivities... But most others probably either end up in more functional situations or wash out in less spectacular ways. His upper-middle class, private school background clearly wasn't a great training ground for certainly NFL life skills either.) I can completely relate to what he told his parents about his depression and how it was affecting his life. I've been there myself and it was at least partly caused by work-related misery (that did not involve interpersonal issues, thank godness) and it sucks. You do feel trapped. And it's a terrible negative feedback cycle.

I couldn't possibly get inside Martin's head, but somehow "Sister Phisters" doesn't sound quite as bad as some of the stuff that Richie and Co. came up with. Who knows. I do wonder if they would have stopped. Had Martin come on very strongly, they might well have. As it was, I sounds like they sensed weakness, and went for it again and again. To bring families into it again, my family has a lot of button-pushers; we like to tease people to get a reaction. And it truly does come from a place of love. We only do it because we like them. It's easy to get a rise out of some people and those buttons get pushed again and again and it's fun to find new buttons to push (while this is a great source of recreation for many of my blood relative, it horrifies most of the in-laws). None of it is ever intended to be mean, and we certainly wouldn't do this for anything sensitive, however.

I'd venture to say that what Richie and Co. were doing was somehow similar, but in a pretty nasty, crude, and cruel way, and it was fun and they were going to keep doing it until forced to stop.

Appreciate the thoughtful response. You make great points.

I dont have time to address them all, but regarding the "Sister Phisters", I agree that it is not as offensive as what was said to Martin. Particularly since he married her.

However, I do genuinely feel that while the banter between these numbnuts crossed the line, it is not that far off from banter between a lot of guys and their friends. Clearly not all, as this thread is evidence of, but many.

I was watching The League on FXX the other night, and noted how similar a lot of the verbal hazing between those guys is to the stuff that goes on between my friends and I (although theirs is significantly more witty). I know it is fiction, so the geniuses that are itching to start another hijack can lay off on that...but it sint far off from reality for a lot of guys. My league has been around for 20 years, and consists of college educated successful professionals. Lawyers, business owners, executives, and even a school district superintendent whose mother has been the object of much verbal abuse for the past 20 years. We are freidns. We understand that its all in good fun. Occasionally the line gets crossed, and we lash out at eachother, but 10 minutes later we are friends again.

I think that is pretty indicative of how a lot of guys are with their friends. I dont think everyone is Ruxin, but I think he is a good caricature of many guys in many circles of friends across the country. And so is Andre (and his sister), for those who watch the show. There is usually an Andre in every group. Low man, easy target.

Clearly, Martin is not one of these type of guys. No issue with that. Would not fit in with my friends, but there is definitely a place for him in society, as there is for all of the guys in here who apparently also would not be Ok with that environment. Problem is (insert dead horse icon), he did not communicate that he was not OK with it, and actively participated in it.

Anyone who cannot see that, which does not include you but does include so many inside and outside of this thread is blinded by their position on the issue.