Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (2 Viewers)

[KCitons]

Chuck, you're still missing the most important part of this story.

This isn't friends, this isn't fantasy football, and this isn't a made up TV show. This is a place of work. This is how Martin, Incognito, Pouncey and Turner make their living. If you don't like how your friends are treating you, you find new friends. If you don't like the TV show, change the channel. When it comes to work, especially in the NFL, players don't have the same options. They are bound by a contract.

I already mentioned that this was probably and issue from day one. As a rookie, Martin may have thought that this was just part of rookie "hazing". He went along with it in order to try to fit in. Also hoping that it was just going to be a one year thing and then it would stop. When it continued into his second year, he came to the conclusion that it wasn't just a rookie thing. They were targeting him. He tried to toe the line, he tried to fit in to what you would describe as the locker room mentality. At a certain point, he realized, this isn't necessary to be an NFL player.

Some can dismiss the name calling as just being guys. It was discussed earlier in this thread and it was a key part of Martin's discussion with his father. The N word effects people differently. Even if Martin would have told Incognito he was uncomfortable with him using it. I'm sure Richie would have told him, Pouncey was ok with it, so why shouldn't Martin be ok with it.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Chuck, you're still missing the most important part of this story.

This isn't friends, this isn't fantasy football, and this isn't a made up TV show. This is a place of work. This is how Martin, Incognito, Pouncey and Turner make their living. If you don't like how your friends are treating you, you find new friends. If you don't like the TV show, change the channel. When it comes to work, especially in the NFL, players don't have the same options. They are bound by a contract.

I already mentioned that this was probably and issue from day one. As a rookie, Martin may have thought that this was just part of rookie "hazing". He went along with it in order to try to fit in. Also hoping that it was just going to be a one year thing and then it would stop. When it continued into his second year, he came to the conclusion that it wasn't just a rookie thing. They were targeting him. He tried to toe the line, he tried to fit in to what you would describe as the locker room mentality. At a certain point, he realized, this isn't necessary to be an NFL player.

Some can dismiss the name calling as just being guys. It was discussed earlier in this thread and it was a key part of Martin's discussion with his father. The N word effects people differently. Even if Martin would have told Incognito he was uncomfortable with him using it. I'm sure Richie would have told him, Pouncey was ok with it, so why shouldn't Martin be ok with it.

Not to speak for Chuck, just to chime in, I agree with you on notion that this carried into his second year, but based on the report, I disagree on the targeting notion. He was not alone in being razzed and he also got on other players.

And for arguments sake, do you think that players who play with a killer instinct are better? Do you think this needs to be refined or brought out in certain players? Now, I'm not saying how they did it made sense and it clearly wasn't effective but in my mind, this was the intention of their efforts.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I don't know why people want to use clumsy comparisons to explain stuff. You know who else used poor analogies? The Nazis.

 

[KCitons]

Chuck, you're still missing the most important part of this story.

This isn't friends, this isn't fantasy football, and this isn't a made up TV show. This is a place of work. This is how Martin, Incognito, Pouncey and Turner make their living. If you don't like how your friends are treating you, you find new friends. If you don't like the TV show, change the channel. When it comes to work, especially in the NFL, players don't have the same options. They are bound by a contract.

I already mentioned that this was probably and issue from day one. As a rookie, Martin may have thought that this was just part of rookie "hazing". He went along with it in order to try to fit in. Also hoping that it was just going to be a one year thing and then it would stop. When it continued into his second year, he came to the conclusion that it wasn't just a rookie thing. They were targeting him. He tried to toe the line, he tried to fit in to what you would describe as the locker room mentality. At a certain point, he realized, this isn't necessary to be an NFL player.

Some can dismiss the name calling as just being guys. It was discussed earlier in this thread and it was a key part of Martin's discussion with his father. The N word effects people differently. Even if Martin would have told Incognito he was uncomfortable with him using it. I'm sure Richie would have told him, Pouncey was ok with it, so why shouldn't Martin be ok with it.

Not to speak for Chuck, just to chime in, I agree with you on notion that this carried into his second year, but based on the report, I disagree on the targeting notion. He was not alone in being razzed and he also got on other players.

And for arguments sake, do you think that players who play with a killer instinct are better? Do you think this needs to be refined or brought out in certain players? Now, I'm not saying how they did it made sense and it clearly wasn't effective but in my mind, this was the intention of their efforts.

Can you define those players? Also, why can't they have a killer instinct on the field where it is required and act like a human being off the field? I expect a Defensive End to come off the edge and tackle the QB, but I don't expect the same guy to come around the sofa and body slam his wife.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

Good points. But the players are following the collective bargaining agreement. I mentioned Martin's contract in my previous post. People negotiate different rights within those contracts. This is where the NFL and the NFLPA will define what is (and is not) acceptable going forward. What we do know is that there are certain work place laws that need to be followed, regardless of what type of business is being conducted.

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

NFL players are not normal. I can agree to that. But, who then decides what is normal. Or in the case of Incognito, what is right and what is wrong?

 

[Smack Tripper]

Chuck, you're still missing the most important part of this story.

This isn't friends, this isn't fantasy football, and this isn't a made up TV show. This is a place of work. This is how Martin, Incognito, Pouncey and Turner make their living. If you don't like how your friends are treating you, you find new friends. If you don't like the TV show, change the channel. When it comes to work, especially in the NFL, players don't have the same options. They are bound by a contract.

I already mentioned that this was probably and issue from day one. As a rookie, Martin may have thought that this was just part of rookie "hazing". He went along with it in order to try to fit in. Also hoping that it was just going to be a one year thing and then it would stop. When it continued into his second year, he came to the conclusion that it wasn't just a rookie thing. They were targeting him. He tried to toe the line, he tried to fit in to what you would describe as the locker room mentality. At a certain point, he realized, this isn't necessary to be an NFL player.

Some can dismiss the name calling as just being guys. It was discussed earlier in this thread and it was a key part of Martin's discussion with his father. The N word effects people differently. Even if Martin would have told Incognito he was uncomfortable with him using it. I'm sure Richie would have told him, Pouncey was ok with it, so why shouldn't Martin be ok with it.

Not to speak for Chuck, just to chime in, I agree with you on notion that this carried into his second year, but based on the report, I disagree on the targeting notion. He was not alone in being razzed and he also got on other players.

And for arguments sake, do you think that players who play with a killer instinct are better? Do you think this needs to be refined or brought out in certain players? Now, I'm not saying how they did it made sense and it clearly wasn't effective but in my mind, this was the intention of their efforts.

Can you define those players? Also, why can't they have a killer instinct on the field where it is required and act like a human being off the field? I expect a Defensive End to come off the edge and tackle the QB, but I don't expect the same guy to come around the sofa and body slam his wife.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

Good points. But the players are following the collective bargaining agreement. I mentioned Martin's contract in my previous post. People negotiate different rights within those contracts. This is where the NFL and the NFLPA will define what is (and is not) acceptable going forward. What we do know is that there are certain work place laws that need to be followed, regardless of what type of business is being conducted.

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

NFL players are not normal. I can agree to that. But, who then decides what is normal. Or in the case of Incognito, what is right and what is wrong?

Yes, you are quite right about the 2nd bolded point and to your point, the Dolphin hazing was completely infeffective from a results standard. Martin by all accounts was weak (can't say I ever focused on him specifically in a game, I'm going by annectdotes) but the results of the line are clear and they couldn't block crap.

But that said, I played with and was coached by guys who played in the NFL and I can assure they didn't have anything resembling Martin's attitude. Now my sample size is limited to six people but there was another gear and frankly a much more fierce and aggressive gear that Martin showed in apparently his play and certainly in his texts.

The offshoot of having that gear as a human being is knowing when and where to control it and turn it off. I can't tell you that the guys I played with weren't jerks if we went out sometimes, they absolutely were. But I have seen young 19 year old jerks and knew young 19 year old jerks that didn't play any sort of football. Life is certainly about balance, and the guys who did the bullying on Miami were out of balance.

And outside the scope of our discussion here, I wonder what the discussion would be if they were 13-3 as opposed to 8-8. I wonder what Martin would have done if they were 7-1?

Martin to me seems like a guy who was always a big kid, and thus got steered into football and he grew to be a really big kid and the doors kept opening for him. But he just wasnt' passionate about the game. There's not a thing in the world wrong with that, but I don't know, I just don't see any environment in the league that's gonna be cut out for the guy. The league belongs more to the Incognitos and Pounceys than it does the Martins.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Chuck, you're still missing the most important part of this story.

This isn't friends, this isn't fantasy football, and this isn't a made up TV show. This is a place of work. This is how Martin, Incognito, Pouncey and Turner make their living. If you don't like how your friends are treating you, you find new friends. If you don't like the TV show, change the channel. When it comes to work, especially in the NFL, players don't have the same options. They are bound by a contract.

I already mentioned that this was probably and issue from day one. As a rookie, Martin may have thought that this was just part of rookie "hazing". He went along with it in order to try to fit in. Also hoping that it was just going to be a one year thing and then it would stop. When it continued into his second year, he came to the conclusion that it wasn't just a rookie thing. They were targeting him. He tried to toe the line, he tried to fit in to what you would describe as the locker room mentality. At a certain point, he realized, this isn't necessary to be an NFL player.

Some can dismiss the name calling as just being guys. It was discussed earlier in this thread and it was a key part of Martin's discussion with his father. The N word effects people differently. Even if Martin would have told Incognito he was uncomfortable with him using it. I'm sure Richie would have told him, Pouncey was ok with it, so why shouldn't Martin be ok with it.

Thoughtful response. Appreciate it. You make solid points.

However, I disagree that they were not friends. They exchanged over 1300 text messages in 2 years. That's about 2 texts per day, every day for 2 years. I haven't exchanged that many text messages with my wife in the same time span, and I adore her. Plus, the context of most of those texts was absolutely a friendly relationship. Additionally, many of their teammates considered them best friends...even brothers. If he did not like how Incognito treated him, he should have found new friends. New people to hang out with. He is forced to work with these guys...not to hang out with them after work. He chose to hang out with them after work, and chose to do it often. In fact, much of what Martin describes as harassment actually seems to have happened outside of work. Not all, but much of it. He chose to be in those situations. You with me?

Regarding the N word...I think it is a deplorable word. I am Jewish, and if the K word was thrown around regularly at me, I would not allow it. That said, you cannot listen to 2 minutes on a hip hop station without hearing the N word uttered 25 times. It has, for better or worse, become an acceptable word for many people to use. A lot of people who seemingly should be offended by the word, are not offended when it comes from certain people. I believe that Richie thought that he was one of those people for Martin. He was for others on the team apparently. Without Jon telling him it was not OK, how could he know it wasn't? It is conjecture for anyone to say that even if he told him, it would have continued. There is absolutely no evidence that when Jon asked people to stop saying certain things that they ignored it, because Jon did not communicate to them in that way.

 

[CalBear]

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

 

[CalBear]

Regarding the N word...I think it is a deplorable word. I am Jewish, and if the K word was thrown around regularly at me, I would not allow it. That said, you cannot listen to 2 minutes on a hip hop station without hearing the N word uttered 25 times. It has, for better or worse, become an acceptable word for many people to use. A lot of people who seemingly should be offended by the word, are not offended when it comes from certain people. I believe that Richie thought that he was one of those people for Martin. He was for others on the team apparently. Without Jon telling him it was not OK, how could he know it wasn't?

If you are a white American, and you don't understand that calling a black person the N-word is wrong, you are either:

• A raging A-word
• Completely insane
• Both (which is what we have here)

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Without Jon telling him it was not OK, how could he know it wasn't?

OOF

 

[KCitons]

Chuck, you're still missing the most important part of this story.

This isn't friends, this isn't fantasy football, and this isn't a made up TV show. This is a place of work. This is how Martin, Incognito, Pouncey and Turner make their living. If you don't like how your friends are treating you, you find new friends. If you don't like the TV show, change the channel. When it comes to work, especially in the NFL, players don't have the same options. They are bound by a contract.

I already mentioned that this was probably and issue from day one. As a rookie, Martin may have thought that this was just part of rookie "hazing". He went along with it in order to try to fit in. Also hoping that it was just going to be a one year thing and then it would stop. When it continued into his second year, he came to the conclusion that it wasn't just a rookie thing. They were targeting him. He tried to toe the line, he tried to fit in to what you would describe as the locker room mentality. At a certain point, he realized, this isn't necessary to be an NFL player.

Some can dismiss the name calling as just being guys. It was discussed earlier in this thread and it was a key part of Martin's discussion with his father. The N word effects people differently. Even if Martin would have told Incognito he was uncomfortable with him using it. I'm sure Richie would have told him, Pouncey was ok with it, so why shouldn't Martin be ok with it.

Thoughtful response. Appreciate it. You make solid points.

However, I disagree that they were not friends. They exchanged over 1300 text messages in 2 years. That's about 2 texts per day, every day for 2 years. I haven't exchanged that many text messages with my wife in the same time span, and I adore her. Plus, the context of most of those texts was absolutely a friendly relationship. Additionally, many of their teammates considered them best friends...even brothers. If he did not like how Incognito treated him, he should have found new friends. New people to hang out with. He is forced to work with these guys...not to hang out with them after work. He chose to hang out with them after work, and chose to do it often. In fact, much of what Martin describes as harassment actually seems to have happened outside of work. Not all, but much of it. He chose to be in those situations. You with me?

Regarding the N word...I think it is a deplorable word. I am Jewish, and if the K word was thrown around regularly at me, I would not allow it. That said, you cannot listen to 2 minutes on a hip hop station without hearing the N word uttered 25 times. It has, for better or worse, become an acceptable word for many people to use. A lot of people who seemingly should be offended by the word, are not offended when it comes from certain people. I believe that Richie thought that he was one of those people for Martin. He was for others on the team apparently. Without Jon telling him it was not OK, how could he know it wasn't? It is conjecture for anyone to say that even if he told him, it would have continued. There is absolutely no evidence that when Jon asked people to stop saying certain things that they ignored it, because Jon did not communicate to them in that way.

Yes, he appeared to be friends with Incognito. But, that was probably in part to Incognito taking him under his wing from day one. Incognito was Martin's go to guy. The guy that stood next to him when they went to battle on the field. I honestly believe that Martin wanted to be friends with Incognito, but Richie pushed things too far.

When I was a sophomore in high school, I used to hang out with a guy that was a junior. We used to go to parties and drink. I considered him a good friend. Unfortunately, he couldn't control his drinking and insisted on driving every weekend. I told him something bad was going to happen, but he continued. The first weekend I didn't hang out with him, he got #### faced and got in a wreck. Thankfully, he didn't die. But, no matter what I told him as friend, he wouldn't listen. I tried to fit in to his world, until I realized it was self destructive.

When you say he didn't have to hang out with them. I would call a $10k fine for not going to Vegas, have too.

As far as the N word is concerned, your comments suggest that anyone should be able to use that word without repercussion. Since whomever is offended didn't tell me that they didn't like it. Once I know it offends, then I should stop.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Regarding the N word...I think it is a deplorable word. I am Jewish, and if the K word was thrown around regularly at me, I would not allow it. That said, you cannot listen to 2 minutes on a hip hop station without hearing the N word uttered 25 times. It has, for better or worse, become an acceptable word for many people to use. A lot of people who seemingly should be offended by the word, are not offended when it comes from certain people. I believe that Richie thought that he was one of those people for Martin. He was for others on the team apparently. Without Jon telling him it was not OK, how could he know it wasn't?

If you are a white American, and you don't understand that calling a black person the N-word is wrong, you are either:

• A raging A-word
• Completely insane
• Both (which is what we have here)

I assume you are referring to Richie here, and not me. At least I hope so. I don't use that word, and as I stated, I find it deplorable.

However, I see that word becoming pretty mainstream in our society, which is stupid, but realistic. I don't run around calling my Jewish friends the K word just because I am also Jewish. Never would do that. Not with a word that I find so offensive. The N word however is thrown around like "buddy" or "dude" in many parts of society. Probably in the parts of society and in the crowds that these people have become familiar with and comfortable in. I don't excuse it, but I understand it.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Chuck, you're still missing the most important part of this story.

This isn't friends, this isn't fantasy football, and this isn't a made up TV show. This is a place of work. This is how Martin, Incognito, Pouncey and Turner make their living. If you don't like how your friends are treating you, you find new friends. If you don't like the TV show, change the channel. When it comes to work, especially in the NFL, players don't have the same options. They are bound by a contract.

I already mentioned that this was probably and issue from day one. As a rookie, Martin may have thought that this was just part of rookie "hazing". He went along with it in order to try to fit in. Also hoping that it was just going to be a one year thing and then it would stop. When it continued into his second year, he came to the conclusion that it wasn't just a rookie thing. They were targeting him. He tried to toe the line, he tried to fit in to what you would describe as the locker room mentality. At a certain point, he realized, this isn't necessary to be an NFL player.

Some can dismiss the name calling as just being guys. It was discussed earlier in this thread and it was a key part of Martin's discussion with his father. The N word effects people differently. Even if Martin would have told Incognito he was uncomfortable with him using it. I'm sure Richie would have told him, Pouncey was ok with it, so why shouldn't Martin be ok with it.

Thoughtful response. Appreciate it. You make solid points.

However, I disagree that they were not friends. They exchanged over 1300 text messages in 2 years. That's about 2 texts per day, every day for 2 years. I haven't exchanged that many text messages with my wife in the same time span, and I adore her. Plus, the context of most of those texts was absolutely a friendly relationship. Additionally, many of their teammates considered them best friends...even brothers. If he did not like how Incognito treated him, he should have found new friends. New people to hang out with. He is forced to work with these guys...not to hang out with them after work. He chose to hang out with them after work, and chose to do it often. In fact, much of what Martin describes as harassment actually seems to have happened outside of work. Not all, but much of it. He chose to be in those situations. You with me?

Regarding the N word...I think it is a deplorable word. I am Jewish, and if the K word was thrown around regularly at me, I would not allow it. That said, you cannot listen to 2 minutes on a hip hop station without hearing the N word uttered 25 times. It has, for better or worse, become an acceptable word for many people to use. A lot of people who seemingly should be offended by the word, are not offended when it comes from certain people. I believe that Richie thought that he was one of those people for Martin. He was for others on the team apparently. Without Jon telling him it was not OK, how could he know it wasn't? It is conjecture for anyone to say that even if he told him, it would have continued. There is absolutely no evidence that when Jon asked people to stop saying certain things that they ignored it, because Jon did not communicate to them in that way.

Yes, he appeared to be friends with Incognito. But, that was probably in part to Incognito taking him under his wing from day one. Incognito was Martin's go to guy. The guy that stood next to him when they went to battle on the field. I honestly believe that Martin wanted to be friends with Incognito, but Richie pushed things too far.

When I was a sophomore in high school, I used to hang out with a guy that was a junior. We used to go to parties and drink. I considered him a good friend. Unfortunately, he couldn't control his drinking and insisted on driving every weekend. I told him something bad was going to happen, but he continued. The first weekend I didn't hang out with him, he got #### faced and got in a wreck. Thankfully, he didn't die. But, no matter what I told him as friend, he wouldn't listen. I tried to fit in to his world, until I realized it was self destructive.

When you say he didn't have to hang out with them. I would call a $10k fine for not going to Vegas, have too.

As far as the N word is concerned, your comments suggest that anyone should be able to use that word without repercussion. Since whomever is offended didn't tell me that they didn't like it. Once I know it offends, then I should stop.

The $10K fine was also levied on another player, who realized it was a joke and didn't pay it. The fact that they cashed his check is disgusting, since I don't think it was actually a real fine.

He was not fined for not going to strip clubs and bars every weekend, and if he was, he should not have paid it. I believe he went because he wanted to go out with his friends. I could be mistaken, but it is really the only thing that makes sense to me.

We are all allowed to chose who we hang out with outside of work. I don't get to decide who works next to me. I can decide to leave my job if I hate the environment so much. So could Jon...and that's what he did.

 

[KCitons]

Since people here are such big fans of my analogies, let's try this one on for size.

Can a pron star be sexually harassed? Her (or his) job is pretty well defined. Usually, what is expected, is written in the contract. Now, just because a person performs sexual acts in front of a camera, does that mean he/she must perform those acts for coworkers. (cameramen, sound guys, promoters, etc)

Continuing with the analogies. If Martin participated in bullying, and therefor can't be a victim of bullying. Then I should be able to use the N word in front of any person that has used the N word themselves. Therefor, they cannot be a victim of my racial slur.

 

[fatness]

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

The Miami Dolphins locker room the last 2 years was not a normal NFL locker room workplace. That's more of an issue than is whether (generic) NFL locker room is like (generic other kind of) workplace.

Greg Cote, Miami Herald

This embarrassed a once-proud franchise, but that’s not on Martin. This embarrassed the Dolphins because Incognito, Pouncey and Jerry demonstrated that gross immaturity does not always expire as one ventures into adulthood. Incognito took to Twitter as recently as this week, defending himself by disparaging Martin and his agent even as the damning Wells report was set to come out.

Some of the stuff in this report shocks the sensibilities of even a veteran journalist who has worked inside sports’ locker room culture for decades. Repeated sexually explicit threats and comments directed to Martin about his sister. Homophobic taunts against the unnamed teammate. A Japanese-born trainer subjected to racist mocking.

Just terrible, all of it. Over-the-top and inexcusable. This was not boys-will-be-boys. This was not a natural byproduct of the macho culture of sports. This does not happen everywhere. This was a plain outrage.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Since people here are such big fans of my analogies, let's try this one on for size.

Can a pron star be sexually harassed? Her (or his) job is pretty well defined. Usually, what is expected, is written in the contract. Now, just because a person performs sexual acts in front of a camera, does that mean he/she must perform those acts for coworkers. (cameramen, sound guys, promoters, etc)

Continuing with the analogies. If Martin participated in bullying, and therefor can't be a victim of bullying. Then I should be able to use the N word in front of any person that has used the N word themselves. Therefor, they cannot be a victim of my racial slur.

I don't think anyone said that since he participated in it that he could not also be a victim of it. What was said was that he was not only a victim, but also an offender...who seems to be escaping any culpability for his actions because he was trying to fit in.

Regarding the N word, I think personally that there is some grey area there. I am sure the geniuses will call me racist for that point of view, but that is a mistake on their part. If I walked around throwing the K word around to all of my Jewish buddies in a positive way, and used it as a part of my regular vernacular to imply "friend", "bud", or fellow human, then I would not in good conscience be able to get mad if a non-Jew used that word toward me in a non-racist context as well...since I had created the impression that the word had positive connotations to my friends.

Jon didn't use the word...at least as far as we know. So I am not implying that it was green light or acceptable for Richie to use it toward him. What I am implying is that Richie is not exactly a Mensa scholar, and that he determined the word to be acceptable with his other African American friends, and was unable to recognize that it was not acceptable to all of them. I implied earlier that the onus was on Jon to tell Richie that it was not OK. That was a mistake on my part. That burden should not have fallen on Jon, but once the deed was done, he should have told Richie that it was not OK if in fact it was not.

The voicemail crossed a line into racist territory as far as the words, but I still don't think it was KKK-racist. I think it was a drunk idiot with major issues using words he shouldn't have used...but not that he hates African Americans. There were texts about buying guns, and using them to kill black people and Jeff Ireland. That is pretty racist and inexcusable, but I definitely got the impression that they were joking around. Bad jokes...not at all funny, but I don't think they really wanted to kill black people or Jeff Ireland.

Richie is an idiot. First class ignorant moron meathead D-Bag. Jon is a highly intelligent, well educated, well read, sensitive guy. Very different backgrounds, very different people. Richie's actions are not excused by his ignorance. However, I understand them, based upon who he is. If he can talk like that to his other African American friends, in his mind, why would he not be able to address his best friend and "little brother" in the same way?

He is wrong, but I get it. I don't necessarily excuse it, but I also don't think that the context was racist in most cases, even though the word is.

 

[KCitons]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

What was illegal about what they did? I saw reports that incog may have turned play wrestling with Martin into an assault, that's all I've seen. I have not read the report in full

 

[Smack Tripper]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

As I would Interpret and understand this, harassment is possible in procuring and keeping your job. For example a casting couch situaton. But it would not be possible on screen in the parameters of an agreed upon script

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim.

You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

 

[KCitons]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

As I would Interpret and understand this, harassment is possible in procuring and keeping your job. For example a casting couch situaton. But it would not be possible on screen in the parameters of an agreed upon script

what would the court of public opinion be, if a pron star claimed she was a victim of sexual harassment?

I would guess, about the same as an NFL player being the victim of bullying.

When you remove the people and the places (or occupation) the only thing left, is the laws. This goes back to the point Chuck was trying to make. Just because I am a burglar, doesn't mean my house can't be burglarized.

 

[KCitons]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim.

You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim.

You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.

Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

 

[rdrouyn]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim.

You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.

Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

Mike Pouncey is not Jonathan Martin.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

What was illegal about what they did? I saw reports that incog may have turned play wrestling with Martin into an assault, that's all I've seen. I have not read the report in full

Workplace harassment is illegal. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim.

You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.

Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

Mike Pouncey is not Jonathan Martin.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

What was illegal about what they did? I saw reports that incog may have turned play wrestling with Martin into an assault, that's all I've seen. I have not read the report in full

Workplace harassment is illegal. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

That was not the question that I addressed, but thanks.

 

[proninja]

Since people here are such big fans of my analogies, let's try this one on for size.

Can a pron star be sexually harassed? Her (or his) job is pretty well defined. Usually, what is expected, is written in the contract. Now, just because a person performs sexual acts in front of a camera, does that mean he/she must perform those acts for coworkers. (cameramen, sound guys, promoters, etc)

Continuing with the analogies. If Martin participated in bullying, and therefor can't be a victim of bullying. Then I should be able to use the N word in front of any person that has used the N word themselves. Therefor, they cannot be a victim of my racial slur.

That's like what Hitler did to the jews, you Nazi

 

[KCitons]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim.

You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.

Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

I was responding to your question about Martin accusing McDonald of being a homosexual. If McDonald is not offended by it, then it is not harassment.

I used sexual harassment as an example. By definition, sexual harassment is Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature that tends to create a hostile or offensive work environment.

This means that two people can make the same statements to the coworker. One can be OK, the other can be considered sexual harassment. I don't make the rules, I just refer to them on a free message board.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim. You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

Mike Pouncey is not Jonathan Martin.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

What was illegal about what they did? I saw reports that incog may have turned play wrestling with Martin into an assault, that's all I've seen. I have not read the report in full

Workplace harassment is illegal. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

Who defines workplace harassment and what is the legal definition of it?

 

[rdrouyn]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim. You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

Mike Pouncey is not Jonathan Martin.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

What was illegal about what they did? I saw reports that incog may have turned play wrestling with Martin into an assault, that's all I've seen. I have not read the report in full

Workplace harassment is illegal. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

Who defines workplace harassment and what is the legal definition of it?

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Here are some of the take-away messages I have about this:

* Martin definitely shares some of the blame for this situation. I understand that he felt trapped and in a bind and his depression was making everything worse. He was a victim, but he helped enable his own victimhood. I don't believe any of that in particular reflects badly on him as a person as some here do. I do, however, believe that his participation in the "banter", particularly the hurtful, nasty stuff, does reflect poorly on him and I hope he realizes that.

* I don't believe that Richie and Co. were necessarily being malicious and for now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and won't conclude without further evidence that it makes them bad people. I do think that their treatment of the trainer and Richie's others antics (golf course, U of Nebraska incidents, etc.) do not reflect well on them as people.

* I understand why people fear that the PC police will invade locker rooms everywhere, corroding and eroding an important culture. I'm not sure, however, that this is necessary. Maybe if somebody could just wave a magic wand to make it OK for somebody like Martin to go talk to a coach (and escalate as necessary), it would make a big difference. Martin clearly was not comfortable going to somebody who could help. What if he had felt this was OK? That might have changed the entire course of this debacle.

----How can it be that a player feels comfortable telling his coaches that he is feeling suicidal, but not that he is being driven that way because his teammates are being complete and utter #######s??? How can the former be a less sensitive topic than the latter? Heck, I heard a story on the radio this morning about a student who was kicked out of Princeton of all places after a suicide attempt! To me, this is the anti-snitch culture run totally amok...---

Yeah, Martin couldn't do confrontation and didn't know how to stick up for himself, but every single one of us has our own deficits and crosses to bear. Writing somebody off because he couldn't handle that is a terrible way to treat an investment (which is what he was for the Dolphins).

* The Dolphins may have blown it by not getting him competent mental health treatment. Sending him to an 82 (?) year old doctor who wasn't taking it seriously was probably a huge mistake. If Martin had gotten some real help, both with medication and therapy to help him learn to be more assertive, maybe things could have been ok, even without somebody making Richie, et al. knock it off.

And before anybody starts talking about how his mental health issues make Martin weak and unsuitable for the NFL, I'll ask if they think Brandon Marshall is weak because of his psychiatric problems? He has a serious disorder (and one that is generally a lot harder to treat than depression) and by dealing with it, it's made him a better player and person (and investment for his employer).

Again, everybody has strengths and weaknesses, and a well-run organization will figure how to put its human resources in a position to succeed. It would be a waste to write somebody off as a football player, particularly one who is a relatively expensive high draft pick, because of issues that are relatively easily addressable (and I'm assuming here that Martin's probably are).

* There are all kinds of personality types in the world and, I assume, in the NFL. Martin's people-pleasing, go-along-to-get-along personality clashed horribly with Richie, but maybe he's a a bit of a peace-maker type, and perhaps his sensitivity and other traits would serve a team well if he became a respected veteran who could step in with some quiet leadership and help out other players who were in the situation he was in. (Or not in his case. Impossible to say. But I think there is a place for that kind of personality in every organization.)

* Does one really have to be an animal to be a good OL? My understanding was that Jonathan Odgen, for example, was not only no slouch as a player, but was also a pretty calm, decent person. (And one who had a similar background to Martin, for whatever that's worth.) For example:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-11-20/sports/1997324133_1_jonathan-ogden-ravens-tough

Tough enough Ravens: Jonathan Ogden may not fit the personality profile of an NFL offensive lineman, but there is no arguing with his results.
November 20, 1997|By Gary Lambrecht | Gary Lambrecht,SUN STAFF

Want to get a rise out of the normally unflappable Jonathan Ogden? Bring up the toughness issue.

Go ahead. Remind Ogden that, on the surface, he doesn't always act like an NFL offensive lineman. The same way those scouting reports hinted he wasn't mean enough to dominate at the professional level, before the Ravens chose him to be their cornerstone in last year's draft.

Remind Ogden that he lacks the menacing persona commonly associated with the men in the trenches. He is too cheery during the week. His practice habits are, at best, unspectacular. And from his left tackle position on Sunday, he rarely destroys opponents with crowd-pleasing "pancake" blocks.

In street clothes, Ogden, 6 feet 9 and 325 pounds, still looks more like a power forward than one of the game's premier pass blockers. He is not a throwback, save for his unruly Afro hairstyle, which last was fashionable when he was a toddler. Instead of steamrolling defenders, Ogden typically opts for the more efficient, technical approach of taking them out of a play.

* Finally, although this is probably a separate topic, this whole debacle is yet another reason why the draft is a terrible way to assign players to teams. Maybe Martin would have ended up on the Dolphins anyway, but with the draft he was trapped. European sports seem to do fine without a draft. There should be a fair way to do this in the US as well.

(edited to fix grammar, formatting, and some dreadful phrasing.)

 

[Kalamazoo]

I was responding to your question about Martin accusing McDonald of being a homosexual. If McDonald is not offended by it, then it is not harassment.


I used sexual harassment as an example. By definition, sexual harassment is Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature that tends to create a hostile or offensive work environment.

This means that two people can make the same statements to the coworker. One can be OK, the other can be considered sexual harassment. I don't make the rules, I just refer to them on a free message board.

This is true... Since harassment is in the eye of the beholder, it's impossible to define objectively. And it's also why I think the harassed should, whenever possible, tell the harasser to knock it off before escalating things. (Of course that's not always possible, but the earlier and more simply stuff can be nipped in the bud, the better...)

 

[proninja]

"I'm not saying it was right to rape her, but what did she expect, wearing those clothes and hanging out at that club?"

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim. You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

Mike Pouncey is not Jonathan Martin.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

What was illegal about what they did? I saw reports that incog may have turned play wrestling with Martin into an assault, that's all I've seen. I have not read the report in full

Workplace harassment is illegal. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

Who defines workplace harassment and what is the legal definition of it?

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

These discussions are masturbatory for some people. They know answers to questions, but they want to make you answer them.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim. You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

Mike Pouncey is not Jonathan Martin.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

What was illegal about what they did? I saw reports that incog may have turned play wrestling with Martin into an assault, that's all I've seen. I have not read the report in full

Workplace harassment is illegal. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

Who defines workplace harassment and what is the legal definition of it?

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.

Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I was responding to your question about Martin accusing McDonald of being a homosexual. If McDonald is not offended by it, then it is not harassment.


I used sexual harassment as an example. By definition, sexual harassment is Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature that tends to create a hostile or offensive work environment.

This means that two people can make the same statements to the coworker. One can be OK, the other can be considered sexual harassment. I don't make the rules, I just refer to them on a free message board.

This is true... Since harassment is in the eye of the beholder, it's impossible to define objectively. And it's also why I think the harassed should, whenever possible, tell the harasser to knock it off before escalating things. (Of course that's not always possible, but the earlier and more simply stuff can be nipped in the bud, the better...)

So just so I understand correctly what you are getting at, please answer this hypothetical:

Player A scores a TD. Player C pats him on his behind to congratulate him...happens all the time, right? Player A has no issue with it.

Player B scores a TD. Player C pats him on the behind. Player B files a sexual harassment charge. Because in player's B's eyes, he was harassed sexually, are you saying that he was?

ETA - this was meant as a response to KC, not Kalamazoo's post. My bad.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Can you have a bully without a victim? If Martin's actions are that of a bully, then there should be someone claiming they are his victim. At this point, I don't know of anyone claiming to be Martin's victim.

I used the pron start analogy, because I have heard of sexual harassment cases where a women "allowed" some men in a workplace to make comments. But, found the same comments from another coworker to be sexual harassment. Only the victim gets to decide what victimizes them. Not saying it's right or wrong.

Just because the victim did not come forward does not mean that there was not a victim. You have a very high moral ground. Are you cool with Martin accusing Andrew McDonald of being a sadistic homosexual drug abusing rapist behind his back to a teammate?

Garner, Samuda, and McDonald were bullied from all accounts as bad if not worse than Martin. Because they did not come forward does that mean that it didn't happen? The trainer denied being bullied to Wells. Does that mean it didn't happen? Eyewitnesses think it did.

can someone say the N word to an African American, and not cause offense?

Absolutely! Mike Pouncey has said as much.Besides, what does that have to do with the post you quoted? Did you quote the wrong one?

Mike Pouncey is not Jonathan Martin.

Which extends to the notion of this "workplace" talk. While technically accurate I suppose, you are not owning up to the performance and entertainment aspects of this business. If this was a "workplace" like you and I might participate in, well you get sick days and you get family leave days. Do you want the quarterback of your team taking Super Bowl sunday off because his kid in a school play? Because that's what you do and are entitled to in a work place. Is the US Military a workplace? Should they allowed to have enforceable discipline?

I'm not saying this as an attack or bringing this to you as a fully formed though for that matter, but I do think its very germaine food for thought. THIS does seem to be what your suggesting by proxy.

My contention is, its NOT a "normal" workplace and how we arrive to classify that, I don't know, but its simply not your office. You want to know the workplace environment of the NFL, the front office, which employs far more people than the 53 guys on the team.

An NFL team is not a "normal" workplace, but there are clear laws in place about what you can and can't do in any workplace. You can require workers to be present for important days (you have to give them vacation, but you don't have to let them take it on the day after Thanksgiving if you're a retail store, for example). The military does have enforceable discipline; that doesn't mean they can hang you upside down and stick your head in the toilet.

The behavior that Ingcognito and Pouncey were engaging is illegal. It's also of no benefit at all to the team, the NFL, or the fans. The fact that many roid-freak idiots get away with that kind of behavior in NFL locker rooms doesn't make it necessary or right.

What was illegal about what they did? I saw reports that incog may have turned play wrestling with Martin into an assault, that's all I've seen. I have not read the report in full

Workplace harassment is illegal. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to get.

Who defines workplace harassment and what is the legal definition of it?

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

These discussions are masturbatory for some people. They know answers to questions, but they want to make you answer them.

no fishing no joking I have NEVER heard that workplace harrasment is illegal. Do you guys not have bosses?

I get fully why the nfl has acted, bullying is a hot button topic so they took action. But do you mean Martin could have called the police and said my coworkers are harassing me and they would have come and arrested some dolphins. Because to me if it's illegal that implies criminality.

I can see this being a civil matter but a criminal one?

 

[rdrouyn]

"I'm not saying it was right to rape her, but what did she expect, wearing those clothes and hanging out at that club?"

Seriously, this. A lot of twisted logic and victim blaming going on.

 

[LuckyOne]

Wells has made it very difficult for Martin to sue the Dolphins. He could go after Incognito, Pouncey and Jerry, probably Turner in a civil suit.

That would likely make sure Incognito did not ever play again as it would take a while for the case to make it through the courts.

There is a lot of case law related to employers that "should have known" about the harassment. Also, with all that transpired, it would be difficult to convince a jury they didn't know. All that would probably be a moot point as The Dolphins would likely want to settle quickly and avoid a public trial that is on the nightly news.

 

[Smack Tripper]

"I'm not saying it was right to rape her, but what did she expect, wearing those clothes and hanging out at that club?"

Seriously, this. A lot of twisted logic and victim blaming going on.

But by extension, if that rape victim participated in another rape, are they not accountable?

 

[Kalamazoo]

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.

Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

That's a reasonable question. I guess where that line is drawn is highly variable. I am babbling based on no knowledge whatsoever here, but I'd guess that the possible grounds for harassment may vary from state to state. For example, in all states it's probably illegal to make racially unwelcome disparaging remarks about an employee, whereas in only some are remarks based on one's sexual orientation illegal. But I have no idea and shouldn't even be writing this. I still think it's a good question.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

"I'm not saying it was right to rape her, but what did she expect, wearing those clothes and hanging out at that club?"

Seriously, this. A lot of twisted logic and victim blaming going on.

But by extension, if that rape victim participated in another rape, are they not accountable?

Exactly. And this is what has been brought up as the question all along. Not blaming the victim for being a victim, blaming the victim for being a bully.

 

[rdrouyn]

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.

Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

Wow.... ok. You should really inform yourself about this.

1. You aren't allowed to racially harass an employee I can tell you that much, which we can all agree that Richie did. Just because you don't report it, it doesn't make it ok if as a supervisor you saw it and did nothing. That is why Turner is insisting he didn't remember buying the blow-up doll. So the fact that the organization didn't do anything about Richie doing that reflects poorly on them. Not sure how illegal that is.

2. I dont live in florida so no idea.

3. Your boss can yell at you about work related things, but he can't touch you physically. He can't call you the n-word or anything that you would consider offensive. If he does you could technically sue him. Doesn't mean it will be an easy case, but you could.

 

[Kalamazoo]

I was responding to your question about Martin accusing McDonald of being a homosexual. If McDonald is not offended by it, then it is not harassment.


I used sexual harassment as an example. By definition, sexual harassment is Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature that tends to create a hostile or offensive work environment.

This means that two people can make the same statements to the coworker. One can be OK, the other can be considered sexual harassment. I don't make the rules, I just refer to them on a free message board.

This is true... Since harassment is in the eye of the beholder, it's impossible to define objectively. And it's also why I think the harassed should, whenever possible, tell the harasser to knock it off before escalating things. (Of course that's not always possible, but the earlier and more simply stuff can be nipped in the bud, the better...)

So just so I understand correctly what you are getting at, please answer this hypothetical:

Player A scores a TD. Player C pats him on his behind to congratulate him...happens all the time, right? Player A has no issue with it.

Player B scores a TD. Player C pats him on the behind. Player B files a sexual harassment charge. Because in player's B's eyes, he was harassed sexually, are you saying that he was?

ETA - this was meant as a response to KC, not Kalamazoo's post. My bad.

I have no idea if Player B would really have grounds to file a sexual harassment charge (I don't think he should on a first offense), but how about if he told Player C and the gang that he didn't want to be patted on the butt (for whatever personal reason he has)? My thoughts: 1. His teammates are jerks if they keep patting him on the butt. 2. There shouldn't be an issue with them initially good-naturally ribbing him about it. 3. They are huge a-holes and bad teammates if he makes it plain he doesn't want them to rib him about it (again for whatever personal reasons he has) and they keep doing it. <-- Does this seem fair with respect to a locker room culture?

 

[MoveToSkypager]

"I'm not saying it was right to rape her, but what did she expect, wearing those clothes and hanging out at that club?"

Seriously, this. A lot of twisted logic and victim blaming going on.

But by extension, if that rape victim participated in another rape, are they not accountable?

Exactly. And this is what has been brought up as the question all along. Not blaming the victim for being a victim, blaming the victim for being a bully.

I'm not saying you are a Nazi but I'm pretty sure the Nazis made this same type of case at one point.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.

Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

That's a reasonable question. I guess where that line is drawn is highly variable. I am babbling based on no knowledge whatsoever here, but I'd guess that the possible grounds for harassment may vary from state to state. For example, in all states it's probably illegal to make racially unwelcome disparaging remarks about an employee, whereas in only some are remarks based on one's sexual orientation illegal. But I have no idea and shouldn't even be writing this. I still think it's a good question.

I think maybe our recent confusion stems from the very clear zero tolerance in academia. Like I said, I had not heard those extensions extend to the workplace. There are obvious protections for physical assault or the like but that is clearly stated in the law

 

[rdrouyn]

"I'm not saying it was right to rape her, but what did she expect, wearing those clothes and hanging out at that club?"

Seriously, this. A lot of twisted logic and victim blaming going on.

But by extension, if that rape victim participated in another rape, are they not accountable?

If you report your rape and the other person doesn't there is no way to be held accountable.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Wow.... ok. You should really inform yourself about this.

1. You aren't allowed to racially harass an employee I can tell you that much, which we can all agree that Richie did. Just because you don't report it, it doesn't make it ok. So the fact that the organization didn't do anything about Richie doing that reflects poorly on them. Not sure how illegal that is.

2. I dont live in florida so no idea.

3. Your boss can yell at you yes, but he can't touch you physically. He can't call you the n-word or anything that you would consider offensive. If he does you could technically sue him. Doesn't mean it will be an easy case, but you could.

Speaking of which, why is nobody (not just here) talking about the trainer? There's almost certainly more to the story (as there always it), but he might be the most "pure" victim here. Should he be bound by the same locker room/team rules as the players? In other words, should he expected to have the same thick skin as they are expected to have and ability to fight back? He probably isn't physically in a position to get in the face of or engage in "fisticuffs" with a 300 lb lineman. He may be afraid of losing his job if he pisses off certain players. There is potentially a pretty big power difference there.

If what is in the that report is true, there was some serious racially-based harassment going on there, and it would be hard to believe that it wasn't at least in part unwelcome. I think our society has done way overboard with litigation, but this guy might have very legitimate grounds for such a suit, particularly since his supervisor witnessed some of it, and I wouldn't necessarily blame him if he tried to do something. The Dolphins really need to clean up their act when it comes to regular employees, and the threat of litigation might be the only thing that makes it happen.

 

[Smack Tripper]

"I'm not saying it was right to rape her, but what did she expect, wearing those clothes and hanging out at that club?"

Seriously, this. A lot of twisted logic and victim blaming going on.

But by extension, if that rape victim participated in another rape, are they not accountable?

If you report your rape and the other person doesn't there is no way to be held accountable.

But in the investigation The discovery shouldn't provide immunity. The action still occurred so why is it being ignored in this instance? I guess I know why it's being ignored but in the court of public opinion I don't think the bullying by Martin should be so readily dismissed

 

[rdrouyn]

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.

Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

That's a reasonable question. I guess where that line is drawn is highly variable. I am babbling based on no knowledge whatsoever here, but I'd guess that the possible grounds for harassment may vary from state to state. For example, in all states it's probably illegal to make racially unwelcome disparaging remarks about an employee, whereas in only some are remarks based on one's sexual orientation illegal. But I have no idea and shouldn't even be writing this. I still think it's a good question.

I think maybe our recent confusion stems from the very clear zero tolerance in academia. Like I said, I had not heard those extensions extend to the workplace. There are obvious protections for physical assault or the like but that is clearly stated in the law

There is a grey area with harassment, which people don't understand. It is all about what the victim finds offensive. Some black guys may not be offended by the N-word, some might. It is a grey area that allows for potential abuse, but also protects the victim from the argument, "but nobody else in the office found that offensive!".

 

[rdrouyn]

Wow.... ok. You should really inform yourself about this.

1. You aren't allowed to racially harass an employee I can tell you that much, which we can all agree that Richie did. Just because you don't report it, it doesn't make it ok. So the fact that the organization didn't do anything about Richie doing that reflects poorly on them. Not sure how illegal that is.

2. I dont live in florida so no idea.

3. Your boss can yell at you yes, but he can't touch you physically. He can't call you the n-word or anything that you would consider offensive. If he does you could technically sue him. Doesn't mean it will be an easy case, but you could.

Speaking of which, why is nobody (not just here) talking about the trainer? There's almost certainly more to the story (as there always it), but he might be the most "pure" victim here. Should he be bound by the same locker room/team rules as the players? In other words, should he expected to have the same thick skin as they are expected to have and ability to fight back? He probably isn't physically in a position to get in the face of or engage in "fisticuffs" with a 300 lb lineman. He may be afraid of losing his job if he pisses off certain players. There is potentially a pretty big power difference there.

If what is in the that report is true, there was some serious racially-based harassment going on there, and it would be hard to believe that it wasn't at least in part unwelcome. I think our society has done way overboard with litigation, but this guy might have very legitimate grounds for such a suit, particularly since his supervisor witnessed some of it, and I wouldn't necessarily blame him if he tried to do something. The Dolphins really need to clean up their act when it comes to regular employees, and the threat of litigation might be the only thing that makes it happen.e

I don't think Martin having his case excludes the Trainer for bringing up his own charges against the Dolphins organization, Richie or Martin. Don't know how solid of a case he would have.

 

[Kalamazoo]

I think maybe our recent confusion stems from the very clear zero tolerance in academia. Like I said, I had not heard those extensions extend to the workplace. There are obvious protections for physical assault or the like but that is clearly stated in the law

Here's how the Dolphins apparently decided to define it internally (see pp. 5-6 of the report):

In 2013, the Dolphins distributed a workplace conduct policy to all players, and Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey each signed an acknowledgement form stating
that he understood the policy and agreed to be bound by it. The policy defines harassment to include “unwelcome contact; jokes, comments and antics; generalizations and put-downs.” Guided by this policy, it was not difficult to conclude that the Assistant Trainer and Player A were harassed, but the questions raised in Martin’s case were more complex, nuanced and difficult.

I have no idea what recourse an employee would have if he or she were subject to conduct that would be considered harassment under this policy, but is not illegal in Florida, say. Also I don't know how the recourse would differ for a player bound by the CBA and a regular employee.