Domestic Abuse/Child Abuse...what do people really want? (1 Viewer)

[Warhogs]

I don't want this thread to be about what is right or wrong or socially acceptable. Obviously all the news has gotten things stirred up. I am curious to hear what FBG members think is appropriate punishment for these players.

I'm still unsure what my thoughts are on what the league should do. Obviously what we saw on the Ray Rice video and the pictures of Adrian Peterson's child are alarming and make us cringe but, that's what abuse looks like.

It seems like Ray Rice was always well liked by his team mates and the fans. Living in Western, WI I can say that my impression has always been that ADP was a good guy. I still feel that for most of his life ADP tries to and is a good guy. What he did to his child went way over the line. But, I feel he is a good guy who needs to seek some help to understand and learn to cope with his feelings and reactions when dealing with a difficult parental situation.

I think my feeling is that a player like this should be suspended for a period of time and asked to seek help and then only be allowed to be reinstated after that amount of time if those treating him deem his treatment a success. Without knowing more I would think the approximate time frame should be whatever the field experts say is a sufficient amount of time to rehabilitate someone with these sorts of issues.

Just curious if others fall more in line with this thinking or do you think there should be no punishment or should they be thrown out of the league forever?

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

I agree 100%.

 

[17seconds]

I don't want this thread to be about what is right or wrong or socially acceptable.

[....]

What he did to his child went way over the line.

ok then

 

[meatwad1]

What both these guys did is on par with the Vick situation even if they are not going to prison. I say they both should have been given a year off to rehabilitate and then be free to sign with someone or comeback. i do not believe in lifetime bans for first offense situations in sports, but seroulsly we are talking about a league that gives many game bans just for drugs or alcohol, which is essentially self-abuse. When you are hurting other people that is another level and should result in a year away.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

 

[The Claymaker]

Like prejudice, this type of punishment was most likely taught/passed on to him by his parents as how children should be corrected.

I am not sure a lifetime ban from the NFL fixes his issue, I would be willing to bet he doesn't really think what he has done to be that bad/wrong. Obviously if that IS the case, that's where the fixing needs to start. I do not think a smack on the butt with an open hand to a child being bad is really that bad in fact I'm sure we all see kids everyday and wonder WTH is wrong with the parents to let their kids act that way. But he took it way beyond that level, whipping a child with a switch, leaving scares, the thing he texted the mother about, he needs help, that much is obvious. I definitely agree with how the Vikings are treating him now, he needs to fix his life first and then he should be allowed to return. I would think they ban him the rest of this year and allow him time to get help and then allow him back when he can prove he has done what's needed to be a better person and father.

I have two children, both grown and I know I made many mistakes as a father. But I never could have or would have beat them like that, I surely gave them both a few open handed smacks on the butt and they spent some time in timeout, but they never feared me like I am sure AP's kids do him. I think what the "right" punishment is, may change with each person as we all learn things differently and in this case he needs to learn this is wrong. Just mho.

 

[Avery]

Curious what people expect going forward as well.

Do people want a player suspended/put of some commissioner "will this save my job" list if he is just arrested? Should we wait until he is convicted, admits to it, we see pictures of it, or can we have some "pulic-outrage-o-meter" to gauge what the suspension should be?

 

[Dragon1952]

I say we burl 'em in erl

 

[OU#1]

I've completely avoided both the Rice and Peterson threads, and I know you wanted this to be about the suspensions themselves, but I'm going to speak my mind once and for all here:

I think they should both do six game suspensions because that's what the agreement was, period. If the owners want to cut ties with the players over it then that's up to them. They should be able to go find another team assuming that team wants to take on the PR headache.

I think Ray Rice should only get two games because that was the agreed upon punishment (or six games would be fair since they changed the rules because of his offense). I don't know what people thought a stacked NFL RB punching his frail fiancee was supposed to look like. Seeing the video should have no bearing on the punishment. Like you said, abuse is not a pretty sight. It amazes me that people were outraged once they saw the video but these same people didn't seem to care at all before the video.

I believe it was said by an ESPN analyst that Floyd Mayweather has a ton of domestic offenses to including holding one girl hostage and at gunpoint. No video, nobody cares apparently. This is way worse than Ray Rice yet this guy gets paid $800k a round (or minute was it?) and everybody buys his pay per view fights. Maybe it's because boxing is barbaric and that entitles him to a free pass (which is ridiculous)?

Peterson beat his son pretty good, and he is likely going to get charged with a felony. This is a life changing mistake(s) that he will have to live with for the rest of his life. I feel bad for him because he really needs help and I don't think he deserves to be banished forever. I am really saddened as I have followed him since he was recruited as OU and have always thought he was a stand up guy, was always humble, never ran his mouth, never let the money, the power, the fame, his god given talent, nothing seemed to go to his head. I think he was first ballot hall of fame and now that is all in doubt. He needs help and I hope he can get it. Everybody makes mistakes and now the whole world knows that he is also human and has his faults, but I don't think this guy is a monster and I believe this problem can be treated. I think he deserves another shot in the NFL, and I think he deserves to be welcomed in the HoF when his time comes as well.

 

[Bad Mojo]

Leonard Little, Donte Stallworth, Josh Brent, Ray Lewis

Discuss

 

[Dippa]

False accusations do happen, and this precedent is terrible for someone in that situation. Good players will most likely be inactive and get paid, but I could see an unproven player lose his career without evidence that anything even happened.

On the other hand, players were kind of gaming the system by getting court dates pushed back for months or even years to delay a suspension.

 

[Avery]

Greg Russell posted a grey thought-provoking article in the Peterson thread. It touches on a lot of these topics.

Given how the NFL is acting now, what amounts to suspending a player upon arrest or indictment, one of the many points points she makes is how this opens NFL players to the very real possibility extortion.

 

[Ever Present Lurker]

Oh Christ let's dissect the situation from every angle! There are 8 threads on the first page pertaining to Adrian Peterson. These #######s are turning football into a soap opera. Do you want to talk about football or do you want to discuss family issues, women's rights and societal norms. Son of a #####, can we all just agree that Rice, Hardy, ADP, McDonald and Dwyer are jackasses and move on with life? With the exception of McDonald they're not playing. They're not going to play. Enough with the drama. How about some football, folks????

 

[Avery]

Oh Christ let's dissect the situation from every angle! There are 8 threads on the first page pertaining to Adrian Peterson. These #######s are turning football into a soap opera. Do you want to talk about football or do you want to discuss family issues, women's rights and societal norms. Son of a #####, can we all just agree that Rice, Hardy, ADP, McDonald and Dwyer are jackasses and move on with life? With the exception of McDonald they're not playing. They're not going to play. Enough with the drama. How about some football, folks????

Does your browser make you click on thread you have no interest in?

If so, I recommend a new browser.

 

[Pots]

Oh Christ let's dissect the situation from every angle! There are 8 threads on the first page pertaining to Adrian Peterson. These #######s are turning football into a soap opera. Do you want to talk about football or do you want to discuss family issues, women's rights and societal norms. Son of a #####, can we all just agree that Rice, Hardy, ADP, McDonald and Dwyer are jackasses and move on with life? With the exception of McDonald they're not playing. They're not going to play. Enough with the drama. How about some football, folks????

People are incapable of sticking to the topic in several of the other threads, or the topic is too broad to get any sort of sensible discussion on a point without being lost in the mess of quotes from a previous 40 pages of arguments over how bad this incident was or wasn't. The OP has decided to respect those ongoing discussions by taking his question to a separate thread and politely asked discussion to be focused on the specific aspect of the Peterson discussion (which you chose to ignore). Now whether this is a Shark Pool or FFA related topic is a fine line, I think it could belong in either, but considering most of the discussion of the topic has been in the SP, I think this is the best place for it and so did the OP.

As for myself, I think it's a shame that the Vikings (and the NFL) are letting TMZ, social media, and sponsors dictate how they handle the situation in this case. At worst this should be a 6-game suspension (in which this will be the 2nd week he'll miss).

 

[Avery]

Oh Christ let's dissect the situation from every angle! There are 8 threads on the first page pertaining to Adrian Peterson. These #######s are turning football into a soap opera. Do you want to talk about football or do you want to discuss family issues, women's rights and societal norms. Son of a #####, can we all just agree that Rice, Hardy, ADP, McDonald and Dwyer are jackasses and move on with life? With the exception of McDonald they're not playing. They're not going to play. Enough with the drama. How about some football, folks????

People are incapable of sticking to the topic in several of the other threads, or the topic is too broad to get any sort of sensible discussion on a point without being lost in the mess of quotes from a previous 40 pages of arguments over how bad this incident was or wasn't. The OP has decided to respect those ongoing discussions by taking his question to a separate thread and politely asked discussion to be focused on the specific aspect of the Peterson discussion (which you chose to ignore). Now whether this is a Shark Pool or FFA related topic is a fine line, I think it could belong in either, but considering most of the discussion of the topic has been in the SP, I think this is the best place for it and so did the OP.

As for myself, I think it's a shame that the Vikings (and the NFL) are letting TMZ, social media, and sponsors dictate how they handle the situation in this case. At worst this should be a 6-game suspension (in which this will be the 2nd week he'll miss).

Agreed.

It is impossible to talk about that the NFL is seemingly setting random length suspensions for players based on the volume of the public outrage and this may set a frightening precedent for future incidents without being called "pro abuse apologist" or a "Peterson apologist" by the angry mob in the player specific threads.

Perhaps this thread can separate the immediacy of the outrage, much of it will good cause, to the nature of suspensions that come before convictions or all the facts are out.

 

[timschochet]

What do I want?

I want it to stop.

 

[Willie Neslon]

What people want is to be able to tell everyone how outraged they are over something that's obviously terrible.

 

[drummer]

How about players "fathering" all kinds of children out of wedlock, a lot of them with different mothers in the Big Three sports leagues?

 

[Kitrick Taylor]

IMO once there is an indictment, or substantive evidence that reasonable people would agree upon (video, confession, etc), a player should be taken off the field. NFL players represent communities, and that is a privilege. Players with felonies hanging over their heads shouldn't be on the field.

As for the chance that a player is wrongly accused, I think his salary should be put into an escrow account until a trial determines his guilt. If guilty, he forfeits his right to the cash. If acquitted, he gets the cash, and obviously reinstated.

 

[Avery]

IMO once there is an indictment, or substantive evidence that reasonable people would agree upon (video, confession, etc), a player should be taken off the field. NFL players represent communities, and that is a privilege. Players with felonies hanging over their heads shouldn't be on the field.

As for the chance that a player is wrongly accused, I think his salary should be put into an escrow account until a trial determines his guilt. If guilty, he forfeits his right to the cash. If acquitted, he gets the cash, and obviously reinstated.

The problem I see with evidence that "reasonable people would agree to" is that I can see much disagreement about that in a given case.

Are pictures enough? That would open somebody up to extortion. Deciding what evidence is reasonable enough to say that someone is guilty is what our courts do better than any any format. Given that, shouldn't we wait for the court to decide if the evidence is enough to say that someone is guilty of a crime?

Also, as far as the escrow, it's a reasonable idea, but this isn't just about money.

Say Payton Manning is accused of beating his wife or his child. There are pictures that prove later to be falsified. During the trial he misses a season or two of his career. He no longer sets the records he was poised to set.

Or on the other end of the spectrum, a marginal player, say Ruben Randle (Giants fan here) has a similar accusation against him with reasonable evidence that proves to be falsified. The Giants cut ties and no team wants to touch him because his talent is marginal and he is not worth the media circus to wait until he can play again. His career is over due to accusation that prove to be false.

I understand that these are perhaps unlikely situations, but shouldn't a set of rules or procedures protect the innocent as well as punish the guilty?

 

[zftcg]

Or on the other end of the spectrum, a marginal player, say Ruben Randle (Giants fan here) has a similar accusation against him with reasonable evidence that proves to be falsified. The Giants cut ties and no team wants to touch him because his talent is marginal and he is not worth the media circus to wait until he can play again. His career is over due to accusation that prove to be false.

You don't think that's exactly how it works already? If these accusations had been made against the *other* Adrian Peterson, do you really think he'd still be on the roster? (OK, I know he's no longer in the league, but you get my point.)

 

[Koya]

I'd like no - or at the least, a LOT less - child abuse.

Could care less about fantasy football, fantasy Victoria Secrets models in my bedroom or even my beloved Giants having a semblance of an NFL team if it meant the above.

That's what I want.

 

[McGarnicle]

I want none of the players I drafted to beat the crap out of their wives or kids. That too much to ask?

 

[Beo]

One legal question about the Peterson case.......How many times can a district attorney take a case to a grand jury? Until he gets a group to agree with him/her or is there a certain amount of times?

 

[Dismattle]

I don't want to speculate on how long a courtship took place (none of my business)

But

Is it kinda ironic to think about Adrian spotting a misbehaving boy, and saying something like "Woah, Id use soap and scrub that mouth out quick" "Give me two minutes alone with that kid, and hell learn to keep his hands to himself" "Id be embarrassed to show my face in public, with such a spoiled brat"

In some respects its almost as if the boys mother is reporting herself.

Bottom line, while I think its great that the NFL wants to help alleviate child abuse (hopefully abortions too) Im not so sure that each case deserves an automatic six game (etc.) I mean basically if some court is able to prove its actual abuse, the door would be open for a six game suspension. Please don't think for a minute that some instance will arise (probably in California) that has all of the media outlets showing pictures w/o any signs of anything except a smiling child. No not AD's kid, I was able to view those pictures.

Its possible that players who are suspected of abuse, should be forced to consult w designated League Officials. Basically I believe Owners and Coachs need to be involved. The Coaching staff should be aware of http://www.gotquestions.org/spare-rod-spoil-child.html but also know limits. The locker room should not be a place to hear " I bloodied that butt"

Overall its sad that the Commish is just increasing his presence without taking initial baby steps. IF a team like the Vikings just needs to cut/suspend/deactivate a player to be in the clear, it seems like an injustice. YES, I agree Players need to be held accountable, But I would speculate that team(s) will at times be just as guilty. For example if a player is suspected of a DUI (prior to conviction) How many times did other Players or even Coachs know that a Player wasn't using good judgement while partaking in alcohol. (Newsflash: Some people will talk and others will retell in detail) Id almost be shocked if some reports were not explained in detail to the Commish himself..

Obviously, some plan needs to be in place because Violence can and will escalate. Thankfully the NFL's wakeup call did not involve an Alcohol/Drug induced Rage against a child/Woman...

Its possible that NFL teams should be given some authority to deal w/ effected players. The team themselves should be the most well informed (less hearsay/second hand) but a System needs to take into account flubbing on the part of some NFL teams... There might be some variance in dealings w/ 60+ Owners/Coachs, as opposed to younger Organizations.

Teams w/ repeat offenders and/or multiple offenders should be instructed to donate, both time and monies to local community Organizations that are needed to deal w/ such Family issues on a daily basis.

Oh yeah, if that eventually appears to be insufficient in grabbing their undivided attention, then its time to evaluate the Teams eligibility to draft, much less the first round.

NFL teams need to start cleaning up their own backyards, effective Today! Its possible a lot of NFL teams need to be more Marauder-like (The Pirates -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMVe_HcyP9Y)

 

[HellToupee]

Leonard Little, Donte Stallworth, Josh Brent, Ray Lewis

Discuss

Great avatar. Really great!

 

[Neofight]

IMO once there is an indictment, or substantive evidence that reasonable people would agree upon (video, confession, etc), a player should be taken off the field. NFL players represent communities, and that is a privilege. Players with felonies hanging over their heads shouldn't be on the field.

As for the chance that a player is wrongly accused, I think his salary should be put into an escrow account until a trial determines his guilt. If guilty, he forfeits his right to the cash. If acquitted, he gets the cash, and obviously reinstated.

The problem I see with evidence that "reasonable people would agree to" is that I can see much disagreement about that in a given case.Are pictures enough? That would open somebody up to extortion. Deciding what evidence is reasonable enough to say that someone is guilty is what our courts do better than any any format. Given that, shouldn't we wait for the court to decide if the evidence is enough to say that someone is guilty of a crime?

Also, as far as the escrow, it's a reasonable idea, but this isn't just about money.

Say Payton Manning is accused of beating his wife or his child. There are pictures that prove later to be falsified. During the trial he misses a season or two of his career. He no longer sets the records he was poised to set.

Or on the other end of the spectrum, a marginal player, say Ruben Randle (Giants fan here) has a similar accusation against him with reasonable evidence that proves to be falsified. The Giants cut ties and no team wants to touch him because his talent is marginal and he is not worth the media circus to wait until he can play again. His career is over due to accusation that prove to be false.

I understand that these are perhaps unlikely situations, but shouldn't a set of rules or procedures protect the innocent as well as punish the guilty?

Honestly, how likely do you think extortion and falsifying of evidence is going to be? Are you imagining a scenario where these stings are organized and RICO is required? It seems to me that with a large number of these athletes unable or unwilling to wear a condom, the real concern is paternity suits and alimony. Teach them not to try and #### everything that smiles at them and be more disciplined in their personal lives, starting at the rookie symposium.I have no problem with deactivation (paid administrative leave) where there is actionable evidence and/or an admission of guilt. If Peterson had been deactivated and remained so there would have been no uproar. Zero tolerance policy on domestic and child abuse, starting at 8 games with counseling and limited access to the team sounds right. Second offense=indefinite suspension with counseling and no access. Third- goodbye (and likely enjoy your life in prison).

 

[EastonBlues22]

I want the punishment to be bad enough that people won't do it.

I want offenders to have some outlet that earns them a second chance.

I want the application and enforcement of these standards to be fairly and equally applied independent of outside influence.

I feel like that should be the bare minimum for any credible system.

Right now, it feels like asking for the moon.

 

[JamesTheScot]

I don't want this thread to be about what is right or wrong or socially acceptable. Obviously all the news has gotten things stirred up. I am curious to hear what FBG members think is appropriate punishment for these players.

I'm still unsure what my thoughts are on what the league should do. Obviously what we saw on the Ray Rice video and the pictures of Adrian Peterson's child are alarming and make us cringe but, that's what abuse looks like.

It seems like Ray Rice was always well liked by his team mates and the fans. Living in Western, WI I can say that my impression has always been that ADP was a good guy. I still feel that for most of his life ADP tries to and is a good guy. What he did to his child went way over the line. But, I feel he is a good guy who needs to seek some help to understand and learn to cope with his feelings and reactions when dealing with a difficult parental situation.

I think my feeling is that a player like this should be suspended for a period of time and asked to seek help and then only be allowed to be reinstated after that amount of time if those treating him deem his treatment a success. Without knowing more I would think the approximate time frame should be whatever the field experts say is a sufficient amount of time to rehabilitate someone with these sorts of issues.

Just curious if others fall more in line with this thinking or do you think there should be no punishment or should they be thrown out of the league fore

It's a criminal matter. There are penalties which apply. There are also requirements for counseling and things of that sort that go along with the criminal charges and involvement from social services. So I think it's hubris to believe the NFL, by caving to the mob of public opinion, is actually helping in any meaningful way. If a guy is sitting in jail, he can't play and can't get paid. If he isn't sitting in jail, then why shouldn't he earn a living and financially support the kids everyone is trying to protect?

Why is it that people feel the need to punish someone over and above what the criminal justice system will do? I suspect it comes from a need to feel self-righteous. But again, why? Haven't I (and the rest of society) already stated my opinion on the subject matter by defining child abuse and making it punishable in that forum? Why the need to punish over and above what the criminal justice system will do and to do so PRIOR to any actual finding of guilt according to a process which we recognize best protects both society and the accused?

Make no mistake, the NFL cares only because of the outrage of fans who may not consume the product if these players play. Acting like it's about any more than that is self-delusion. So it makes no sense to talk about this issue and narrow the discussion to the league. It all still boils down to the mentality of the fan and society...because we are what drives the NFL's and the owners' decisions.

So then, as a fan, why do I care about the morality of some guy playing football? Do I care as much when some guy in my community continues to sell insurance while his child abuse charges work their way through the court system? Because even if his company lets him go when it goes public, they are still doing it out of concern over what I (and you) might think and then do to them financially.

So it always comes back to us.

I think it has a lot to do with our own individual need to feed our ego than anything else. I want to feel good about myself and look good to others, so I'm going to grab a pitchfork and pretend I'm really doing something by asking that ADP be banned from playing a game. Then I can pat myself on the back and claim that I really did something to stop child abuse in my community. I guess letting the authorities handle it in the criminal justice system simply isn't enough.

I don't think we can really talk about these issues in any meaningful way without being willing to dig into our own motivations and desires and ask ourselves why we feel as we do.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

I don't want this thread to be about what is right or wrong or socially acceptable. Obviously all the news has gotten things stirred up. I am curious to hear what FBG members think is appropriate punishment for these players.

I'm still unsure what my thoughts are on what the league should do. Obviously what we saw on the Ray Rice video and the pictures of Adrian Peterson's child are alarming and make us cringe but, that's what abuse looks like.

It seems like Ray Rice was always well liked by his team mates and the fans. Living in Western, WI I can say that my impression has always been that ADP was a good guy. I still feel that for most of his life ADP tries to and is a good guy. What he did to his child went way over the line. But, I feel he is a good guy who needs to seek some help to understand and learn to cope with his feelings and reactions when dealing with a difficult parental situation.

I think my feeling is that a player like this should be suspended for a period of time and asked to seek help and then only be allowed to be reinstated after that amount of time if those treating him deem his treatment a success. Without knowing more I would think the approximate time frame should be whatever the field experts say is a sufficient amount of time to rehabilitate someone with these sorts of issues.

Just curious if others fall more in line with this thinking or do you think there should be no punishment or should they be thrown out of the league forever?

I want the legal system to give Ray Rice the same damn punishment Clay Rice would have recieved and if Clay works for a profit company that doesnt want their image messed up they have the right to suspend him or not. I dont care about the length

 

[JamesTheScot]

I want none of the players I drafted to beat the crap out of their wives or kids. That too much to ask?

Why not simply want no wives or kids to get beat?

And don't we have a criminal justice system and we've defined criminal behavior to handle that issue?

Why must it be more complicated than that?

So then, why does you drafting such a player onto your fantasy team really have anything to do with it at all? Isn't that really just a manifestation of you making it about you? What detriment or benefit do you derive if such a guy is on your team? Because whether such a guy is on your team means nothing to him or his victims at the end of the day.

 

[Devine Intervention]

I keep seeing comments on how to stop violence against women and children, is that the only kind of violence??

An analyst on ESPN said we have a violence against women problem. I disagree, we have a VIOLENCE problem in the NFL. Players that do physical damage should not matter if it is against woman, child, man or animal.

I think another issue is media and public opinion driving results. Its gross that the league and owners are being bullied by whatever opinions the social media has. The media and the public are usually under informed to make decisions on most cases and are quick to jump to whatever stance suits their cause. There is no place for that. As the public we need to trust in the law enforcement to do their job, and the league to handle it accordingly. If you do not agree with the league's response then don't watch. But to add a lynch mob attitude especially in most cases where we dont have all the evidence, is just making it worse.

Lastly I want ESPN, NFL Network and all other SPORTS networks to report on SPORTS! Im so tired of hearing about this nonsense. I watch sports for the purpose of getting away from real world drama, an escape from the daily grind. EVERY company with that many employees have the exact same issues. I dont hear Pepsi reporting on what CEO beat thier child, nor do I care. I do care that the law will do its job and attempt to eliminate the issue but I don't need to know, I will just trust in the system to do their job.

It is literally unbearable to watch sports networks or listen to sports radio. I want to watch sports and highlights and discuss the game. They barely even show highlights, it is just taken over by this. These networks need to do their job and deliver us sports, not reality TV drama. Its stupid.